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Art. 5


The more grave delict of the attempted sacred ordination of a woman is also reserved to the

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:


1° With due regard for can. 1378 of the Code of Canon Law, both the one who attempts to confer sacred ordination on a woman, and she who attempts to receive sacred ordination, incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.


2° If the one attempting to confer sacred ordination, or the woman who attempts to receive sacred ordination, is a member of the Christian faithful subject to the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, with due regard for can. 1443 of that Code, he or she is to be punished by major excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.


3° If the guilty party is a cleric he may be punished by dismissal or deposition[31].


Art. 6


§ 1. The more grave delicts against morals which are reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are:


1° the delict against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue committed by a cleric with a minor below the age of eighteen years; in this case, a person who habitually lacks the use of reason is to be considered equivalent to a minor.


2° the acquisition, possession, or distribution by a cleric of pornographic images of minors under the age of fourteen, for purposes of sexual gratification, by whatever means or using whatever technology;


§ 2. A cleric who commits the delicts mentioned above in § 1 is to be punished according to the gravity of his crime, not excluding dismissal or deposition.


Art. 7


§ 1. A criminal action for delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by prescription after twenty years, with due regard to the right of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to derogate from prescription in individual cases.


§ 2. Prescription runs according to the norm of can. 1362 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law[32], and can. 1152 § 3 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches[33]. However, in the delict mentioned in art. 6 §1 n. 1, prescription begins to run from the day on which a minor completes his eighteenth year of age.

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Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Dear Lord,

even though the Anglican Communion is totally fucked, thankyou for the opportunity to be Anglican and not a Roman Catholic.

Amen.

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Frankly I stopped caring about what the Vatican thinks when they compared gay sex with the destruction of the rainforest.

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Originally posted by multipara:
Whoever penned that little missive should be dressed down for intemperate journalism.

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• bringing the code of canon law on graviora delicta into line with the practice concerning the investigation and punishment of sexual abuse by priests and religious of minors and those who are developmentally delayed;
• dealing other graviora delicta relating to sacramental matters such as the potential for abuse of the privilege of the confessional by for example Twitter and other social media and in a way that recognises the impact of modern communications technology

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Originally posted by Wesley J:
BBC News have "Vatican 'speeds up' abuse cases". Goes exactly with the OP: More abuse in less time. Remains to hope they'll soon excommunicate themselves soon. No communion with the faithful, and no communication either. Oh Lordy!

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I suppose this is the bit where I point out that

• bringing the code of canon law on graviora delicta into line with the practice concerning the investigation and punishment of sexual abuse by priests and religious of minors and those who are developmentally delayed;
• dealing other graviora delicta relating to sacramental matters such as the potential for abuse of the privilege of the confessional by for example Twitter and other social media and in a way that recognises the impact of modern communications technology

are actually Good Things.

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I suppose this is the bit where I point out that

• bringing the code of canon law on graviora delicta into line with the practice concerning the investigation and punishment of sexual abuse by priests and religious of minors and those who are developmentally delayed;
• dealing other graviora delicta relating to sacramental matters such as the potential for abuse of the privilege of the confessional by for example Twitter and other social media and in a way that recognises the impact of modern communications technology

are actually Good Things.

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Posted                         

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I suppose this is the bit where I point out that

• bringing the code of canon law on graviora delicta into line with the practice concerning the investigation and punishment of sexual abuse by priests and religious of minors and those who are developmentally delayed;
• dealing other graviora delicta relating to sacramental matters such as the potential for abuse of the privilege of the confessional by for example Twitter and other social media and in a way that recognises the impact of modern communications technology

are actually Good Things.

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
Well, Joe baby, you've gone and stepped over the line of common decency, natural justice and any sense of godly, proper morality by comparing the sexual abuse of children to the ordination of women.

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
I never believed them when they told me that the Pope was the antiChrist, but I'm beginning to think that you, Joseph Ratzinger, may very well be.

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Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:

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Originally posted by multipara:
Whoever penned that little missive should be dressed down for intemperate journalism.

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Please feel free to show us where it is wrong or misrepresentative of the Vatican's position.

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For a start, if you're going to try to look repentant for having overlooked the sexual abuse of children and for having lightly disciplined the priests who harmed them, then how about issuing a document which appears to be dealing with the perpetrators of that harm in an unequivocal and repentant way.

I was serious when I said I don't know who comes off worse here.

The document certainly does give me the impression that the pope, at least, isn't actually all that repentant for the sexual abuse of children and he's apologizing to try to make the scandal go away.

If you are really aware of your guilt and your responsibility, you don't add a little addendum: "Oh by the way, those who ordain women are just as immoral as those who abuse children". "Oh, by the way, those who eat meat on Fridays in Lent are just as immoral as those who abuse children".



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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Originally posted by Eliab:

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
I never believed them when they told me that the Pope was the antiChrist, but I'm beginning to think that you, Joseph Ratzinger, may very well be.

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And even on the assumption that the Pope does think that ordaining a woman is as rephrensible as child abuse, you seem to me to be guilty of a very similar fault in asserting that the mere holding of such an opinion is as reprehensible as 'being the antiChrist' and is deserving of "eons" of suffering.

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Originally posted by multipara:
Intellect by proxy and Eliab,

Get this clear:

I've put in my non-aligned 2 bob's worth.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm missing the part where the Pope, or indeed, anyone, says that they thing ordaining a woman is morally equivalent to raping a child. I cannot believe that he thinks any such thing.

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Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm missing the part where the Pope, or indeed, anyone, says that they thing ordaining a woman is morally equivalent to raping a child. I cannot believe that he thinks any such thing.

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An analogy.

If I, as a secular judge*, last month sentenced someone to 20 years in prison for child abuse then, two weeks later, sentence someone to 20 years in prison for stealing staples from the stationary cupboard, I have, by implication, said that stealing staples is the moral equivalent of child abuse.

In his recent 'clarification' on women priests, the pope has done just that.

* I'm not one, by the way

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Originally posted by multipara:
It might be more helpful for both of you good Xtians to pray foe the enlightenment of the benighted Roman clergy (after you've stopped patting yourselves on the back for not being RC)

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"patting myself on the back for not being RC"? Where did I do that?

Where have I ever done that?

I'm not RC. I don't feel the need to congratulate myself for that, or to rant about the RCC. That doesn't mean I can't spot bullshit talked about that institution.

quote:

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Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
An analogy.

If I, as a secular judge*, last month sentenced someone to 20 years in prison for child abuse then, two weeks later, sentence someone to 20 years in prison for stealing staples from the stationary cupboard, I have, by implication, said that stealing staples is the moral equivalent of child abuse.

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
Here is my hellish answer: Apparently you are suffering from the same form of moral blindness as the pope is if you can't tell the difference between destroying a child's life and soul and breaking a rule.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
Or to put it another way - do you seriously and honestly believe that the Pope in actual fact thinks that trying to ordain a woman is as monstrous and inhumane a crime as raping a child? I very much doubt that you think any such thing. So what's the point of debating the issue as if he did, when no one of goodwill could possibly think it?

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Originally posted by Erin:
Based on his past actions, he totally thinks that ordination of women is much, much worse.

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Am I missing something here or doesn't the Vatican's statement say something like :

If you are a priest involved with the abuse of minors (and we catch you in time) you are going to be punished and might be kicked out of the priesthood.

If you are a priest involved with the attempted Ordination of Women you are automatically condemned to spend all eternity in the burning pit of hell, and you might be kicked out of the priesthood.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
You get a new job, and the manager tells you that you'll get fired if you do not follow company regulations for handling chemicals. He also tells you that the company has a zero tolerance policy concerning sexual harassment at the work place.

You therefore conclude that the manager believes spilling sulphuric acid is as morally depraved as raping the secretary, and terminate your employment in disgust.

Because you are a fucking moron.

(Not talking to Eliab.)

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Originally posted by jacobsen:
Poor old Joe. Limping away, having shot himself in both feet. Let's leave his balls out of the discussion.

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Let's sack Rome. They deserve it, don't they? At the very least the EU should cut trade and diplomatic links with the Vatican, and starve them out. If only Martin Luther had finished the job!

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by RadicalWhig:
Let's sack Rome. They deserve it, don't they? At the very least the EU should cut trade and diplomatic links with the Vatican, and starve them out. If only Martin Luther had finished the job!

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I suppose after sacking Rome you propose moving the papacy back to Avignon.

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Am I missing something here or doesn't the Vatican's statement say something like :

If you are a priest involved with the abuse of minors (and we catch you in time) you are going to be punished and might be kicked out of the priesthood.

If you are a priest involved with the attempted Ordination of Women you are automatically condemned to spend all eternity in the burning pit of hell, and you might be kicked out of the priesthood.

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Look on the bright side, at least the Pope didn't impose an interdict on Argentina for legalizing same-sex marriage.

Never could understand a Church that believes that God could confer holy orders on a Borgia (May Alexander VI rest in peace) but can't confer it on either the Blessed Virgin Mary or Mother Teresa.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Am I missing something here or doesn't the Vatican's statement say something like :

If you are a priest involved with the abuse of minors (and we catch you in time) you are going to be punished and might be kicked out of the priesthood.

If you are a priest involved with the attempted Ordination of Women you are automatically condemned to spend all eternity in the burning pit of hell, and you might be kicked out of the priesthood.

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Where are you getting this from? I'm not a Canon lawyer (obviously) but it looks to me as if both are excommunicable offences, both are reserved to the CDF, and for either (depending on the gravity of the offence) a priest may be dismissed or deposed

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Originally posted by Eliab:
You have two half-decent points you could make.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
The other is that given recent history, it's a bit tactless to like OOW and child abuse. You could make that point perfectly well without the sort of intemperate posturing of the OP, where you attribute to the Pope not only an opinion which he does not hold, but which you could not in good conscience even imagine that he holds. If you are doing it for rhetorical effect, it's shoddy and dishonest.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
Or do you think that tactlessly linking the two issues is actually the same thing as seeing them as morally equivalent? If so, then you really are morally blind.

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Originally posted by Seeker963:
And yeah, I stupidly think that imposing the worst possible punishment for those who support the OOW whilst pleading for forgiveness for many paedophile priests suggests that they think that OOW of women is as evil as child abuse. Oh, and they said that too.

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And please can I live in a world where we are not subjected to your form of morality?

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Originally posted by teddybear:
Am I the only one who noticed that there is absolutely no mention of canonical penalties for those who hide abusers or move them from diocese to diocese?

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Originally posted by Eliab:
Much as I'd like to claim it as my own unique contribution to morality, the prohibition on the bearing of false witness against one's neighbour is considerably older than I am. I guess you're stuck with it.

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