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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: To Hell with your evil theology
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Rotting equines are that way...
Yes. I, too, sense the hovering aura of the Hellhosts...
We've been hovering for a while. But so far, most people seem able to avoid the glue factory well enough that we haven't had to dole out specific warnings.
Let's keep it that way ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
If Benedict sincerely believes that:
quote:
The Lord wants these Gospel witnesses, these figures who have made a contribution so that faith in him would grow, to be known, and their memory kept alive in the Church.
how can he put his name to a book that totally ignores them?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Duo Seraphim:
I can see where you are coming from but that is no bloody excuse.
I consider myself fortunate that i come form a tradition where my clitoris was not amputated before puberty but that does not mean that OoW is not ipso facto non-existent priority.
I recall 40 years ago when 30% of medical students were female and less than 10% went on to specialist training. How things have changed, and what a marvel is it that the medicos (female especially ) have taken over where the padres have left off.
And BTW, my elder daughter is about to join that overwhelming majority of female solicitors in NSW.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.
And the complete absence of female clergy isn't a clue to intending members?
Some people, I among them, begin their explorations of new possibilities by reading about them, where this is less obvious.
Beyond that, there's a fairly active community of fundagelicals where I live, who require women to keep silent in church, have all-male clergy, follow the "headship" business, etc. Needless to say, I don't belong to this group.
Occasionally one of its members writes letters in to the local rag banging on about the appalling persecution faced by Christians, both here and abroad.
I usually write back a letter of my own to say that, country to country, culture to culture, and age to age, by far the most persecuted group of people on this planet has been and continues to be, women.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
I consider myself fortunate that i come form a tradition where my clitoris was not amputated before puberty but that does not mean that OoW is not ipso facto non-existent priority.
That was not what I said, mother of several - and you know it.
My argument is that there are greater priorities for Western feminism, not that ordination of women in the Catholic Church was a non-existent priority.
From my point of view the arguments against ordination of women in the Catholic Church have about as much validity as those in favour of priestly celibacy ie flimsy. I can't debate that argument on this board.
But if you really want to know what really gets me going, what fills me with pure,cold rage - it is the denial of education to girls and women in places like Afghanistan, honour killings, rape as warfare, genital mutilation. I could continue. They are the hard targets.
Ordination of women in the Catholic Church just doesn't fill me with the same level of rage.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
OK, let's look at the names listed: Peter, his brother Andrew, James the older, John, Thomas, Matthew, Philip, Bartholomew, James the younger, Simon, Judas Thaddeus, Judas Iscariot, Matthias and Paul.
Does this particular list of names ring any bells? Can anyone think of a reason why these particular figures might have been chosen? Anyone?
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
Congratulations, you win the moron award.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
..But if you really want to know what really gets me going, what fills me with pure,cold rage - it is the denial of education to girls and women in places like Afghanistan, honour killings, rape as warfare, genital mutilation. I could continue. They are the hard targets.
Amen - from your mouth to God's ears. Let's keep the priorities straight.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Congratulations, you win the moron award.
Just heading off your lame attempt to justify all-male clergy, dipshit.
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
Right. Of course.
Newflash 1: Someone publishes a book of talks the pope gave on the 12 apostles (plus Paul).
Newsflash 2: Bears shit in the woods.
Newsflash 3: AEN, nee Gort, says something stupid.
[ 01. August 2010, 18:39: Message edited by: FCB ]
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
When you have something to share that isn't the Party Line, I'll consider an intelligent response. In the mean time, DH is that way ---->
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
OK, let's look at the names listed: Peter, his brother Andrew, James the older, John, Thomas, Matthew, Philip, Bartholomew, James the younger, Simon, Judas Thaddeus, Judas Iscariot, Matthias and Paul.
Does this particular list of names ring any bells? Can anyone think of a reason why these particular figures might have been chosen? Anyone?
Aren't Philip and Bartholomew generally thought to be two names for the same person?
And if you are going to include one person who never met Jesus before His death, why stop there?
How many Christians, if asked to compile a list of 14 "Friends of Jesus" would not include any-one called Mary? Or does Benedict believe that I am wrong to consider my mother to be my friend as well?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
On the Philip and Bartholomew question -- I have never heard that they were supposed to be the same person: you may be thinking of Batholomew and Nathanael.
My original point, which I thought was really obvious, but clearly wasn't, was that the group of "friends of Jesus" in the book consists of those whom the New Testament calls "apostles" (Paul is included because he makes a big deal out of claiming the title for himself). This is clearly the criterion according which they were chosen for inclusion. I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women. Mary Magdalene might have been an ingenious choice for inclusion (since some early Christian writers referred to her as the "apostle to the apostles"), but I don't really expect Popes (or those who assemble books out of their writings) to be ingenious.
For some reason Gort thinks I'm trying to make some point about the ordination of women, which, frankly, didn't even cross my mind.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
...This is clearly the criterion according which they were chosen for inclusion. I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women...
For some reason Gort thinks I'm trying to make some point about the ordination of women, which, frankly, didn't even cross my mind.
No, no, of course not - an all male list of Friends of Jesus, ignoring the very most important and closest friends of Jesus who just happen to be female, has nothing to do with ordination of women. Nope, no way. Obviously I'm simply projecting my liberal biases.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
Gort, it's a book on the apostles.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
As we can see, the praise refers to women in the course of the Church's history and was expressed on behalf of the entire Ecclesial Community. Let us also join in this appreciation, thanking the Lord because he leads his Church, generation after generation, availing himself equally of men and women who are able to make their faith and Baptism fruitful for the good of the entire Ecclesial Body and for the greater glory of God.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
My apologies, FCB, just ignore me. Speak to those who can hear you. I'll shut up now.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
On the Philip and Bartholomew question -- I have never heard that they were supposed to be the same person: you may be thinking of Batholomew and Nathanael.
My bad. I should have checked before posting. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
If there were only 12 "Friends of Jesus", I would not have objected. It's the 2 extras that I find odd, for reasons which Gort expresses perfectly.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
It's the 2 extras that I find odd, for reasons which Gort expresses perfectly.
Fair enough, though Paul and Mathias are identified as "apostles" in the New Testament.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
And there's a big difference between a hardcover book published for children and an obscure epistle on the Vatican website.
If the Pope has any decent PR advisers (and if they by any chance are reading the Ship ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) , may I suggest that they promptly produce a nice parallel book extolling all of those wonderful women who meant so much to Jesus.
Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church. And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.
Better yet would be a revised version of the original book, expanded to include the women, with a forward by Pope Benny explaining that it was an inexcusable oversight that the first edition didn't include any women, since women have contributed so much to the church, blah, blah, blah.
But that's probably asking too much.
~~~
A few days ago, I watched the new season opener of MadMen. Having grown up in that era and having first-hand experience of being the oddball woman in a man's work world, it as all too real. (I'm even old enough that I remember the "John - Marsha" thing.)
Sadly, when dealing with the public and the laity, the Vatican is still living back in the '50s and early '60s. And has yet to adjust to the continuing schizoid aftereffects of VatII.
I had hoped that Benedict would use his love and understanding of the liturgy combined with what I thought was a rational intelligence to begin bringing the two pendulums of VatII overenthusiasm and the reactionary Trad movement into some sort of approach to equilibrium, but I have been repeatedly astounded at what has already, on this thread, been identified as his tone deafness.
Sadly, it doesn't seem to be happening.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women.
<cough> Boys' club.
quote:
Mary Magdalene might have been an ingenious choice for inclusion (since some early Christian writers referred to her as the "apostle to the apostles"), but I don't really expect Popes (or those who assemble books out of their writings) to be ingenious.
If he meant the words, quoted on the thread, about God having equal purposes for men and women, then it would only require common sense, not ingenuity, to make sure women were included. And since it's called "Friends of Jesus", not "The Apostles", even a very conservative reading of Scripture would allow his mom, Mary Magdalene, maybe his mom's cousin Elizabeth, Joanna and the other women mentioned. Plus the Samaritan woman at the well, maybe the woman who washed his feet (if thought to be separate from Mary Magdalene), etc.
As to Mary Magdalene being "Apostle to the Apostles"...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Reminds me of this picture
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, very much like it!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.
Really?
quote:
And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.
Amazing indeed.
Some of it so amazing that it successfully spoiled her chances of ever being declared Doctor of the Church, while at the same time making her a pillar of New-Age-ism and the mother of a bewilderingly successful brand of quackery.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
As to Mary Magdalene being "Apostle to the Apostles"...
Gorgeous icon! And she actually looks like she might be from the Middle East rather than Sweden.
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
I'll take one more try at this and then give up: Someone published a book of the Pope's writings about the apostles for children and, in order to explain what an "apostle" is describes them as "friends of Jesus." It is not a book about the friends of Jesus that reduces that group to the Apostles.
People seem to be following this line of reasoning:
- All the apostles are men.
- The Pope says that the apostles are "friends of Jesus."
- Therefore the Pope thinks that only men are friends of Jesus.
This involves a clear logical fallacy, since the category "friends of Jesus" is clearly not exhausted by the category "apostles.".
Of course we're talking about subjective impact here, not syllogistic logic, and given the reactions to this particular question among people on this thread (whom I generally consider to be, with only a few exceptions, of pretty high intelligence), I guess I will have to concede that this does in fact fall into the category of "things the Vatican has screwed up."
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
I'm not a parent either, but I like to think I have a good perception of the gravity of child abuse. To say that only parents can have such a perception is simply wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hmmm...to say that "some non-parents don't seem to appreciate the gravity of paedophilia"<>"all non-parents fail to appreacite the gravity of paedophilia".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
That's not what you said though. You said that they might not get it because they're not parents.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes I did. That doesn't mean that I think all non-parents don't get it.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.
Really?
quote:
And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.
Amazing indeed.
Some of it so amazing that it successfully spoiled her chances of ever being declared Doctor of the Church, while at the same time making her a pillar of New-Age-ism and the mother of a bewilderingly successful brand of quackery.
Hildegard of Bingen got to Blessed but never made it to saint in four attempts (canonisation being a rather imperfect process in the 12th century.) She would have been a remarkable person in any age for her great unrestful Christianity, her forthright criticism of the faults of the Church, the breadth of her learning, her wisdom, her visions...and her music. She went on her final preaching tour at the age of 75. She was lucky to have been tithed to the Church and thus spared the usual fate of marriage and child bearing to some minor German nobleman.
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
Of course an actual victim of sexual abuse by a priest may understand it even more personally and painfully than either a parent or non-parent (a silly distinction as Marvin has pointed out.)
One of those victims, Geoffrey Robinson, went on to be a Bishop in the Catholic Church in Australia and recently spoke forcefully and critically on the Church's failure to deal with the sexual abuse scandal,as I pointed out earlier.
[ 02. August 2010, 14:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
I'm not a parent either, but I like to think I have a good perception of the gravity of child abuse. To say that only parents can have such a perception is simply wrong.
You are quite right.
And of course there are also parents who don't have that perception.
However, Matt's observation is one I share.
I suppose the process of a person with tendencies to abuse changing into an actual abuser, is dependent on many factors.
I wouldn't be too hasty too dismiss not being a parent as one of the factors lowering the threshold between longings for sexual acts with children and the acting out of those longings.
Personally I think RC moral theology / ethics are easily abused to make certain horrible practices seem less horrible than others, thereby justifying them in the eyes of the abuser.
In the -far too- many years I've spent on RC-forums I've seen people (even conservative RC-priests) argue hierarchies of sexual sins where child abuse ranks pretty low, thereby making it an option preferable to e.g. sexual intercourse with consenting adults or masturbation. Granted, this was when the RCC as a whole was still in denial about the problem, or at least about the then still unimaginable extent of the problem.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Anyway, I agree that JP2 should have left Thérèse alone. She was doing quite well without his approval.
As for his taste and discernment, he was the pope that blessified Mel Gibson's favorite church-historian and mystic.
Least said, soonest mended.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
Can't agree. She looks like a victim, not a conquering saint. Indeed she looks like somebody dumped a bucket of seaweed on her head. It's a hideous image.
Although the egg is supposed to be red (in that other one).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
[ 03. August 2010, 03:45: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
(italics mine)
Add it up with me. 3 + 1 = 4
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
Trying to score points? In Hell, home turf of the Silly Bullies? I wouldn't dare to.
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope, and even if Hildegard were ever to be declared Doctor of the Church by a similar pope, you would still have 2 towering figures, 1 (arguably) rather sentimental even mawkish one, and 1 patron saint of New Age and Quacks.
Given the sheer volume of the oeuvre of Hildegard there are bound to be gems of wisdom, deep faith and true insight to be found there. But taken as a whole it consists of embarrassingly indiscriminate collections of real and pseudo knowledge, and lots of superstitions sometimes bordering on witchcraft.
As a composer Hildegard indeed ranks among the great, but that would hardly be a reason to make her Doctor of the Church, would it?
But I should stop this because, apart from sheer entertainment value, if the perceived relevance of Hildegard isn't a DH, it should be.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
Can't agree. She looks like a victim, not a conquering saint. Indeed she looks like somebody dumped a bucket of seaweed on her head. It's a hideous image.
Although the egg is supposed to be red (in that other one).
I was thinking the same thing, I thought she looked like a wax figure that started to melt.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Her story is one of the stranger tales that didn't make the canon, and Tertullian didn't approve, but if there's any kernel of truth in it at all, she was an early example of female Christian leadership.
I've also wondered because being the odd hybrid protestant that I am, I keep an icon of her on my desk that was painted by a pastor-friend.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
[ 03. August 2010, 17:46: Message edited by: opaWim ]
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
She is titled Holy First-Martyr and Equal-to-the-Apostles in my handy-dandy Horologion.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
She is titled Holy First-Martyr and Equal-to-the-Apostles in my handy-dandy Horologion.
Thanks. I didn't realize she was so highly regarded. I'm honored to have such an august likeness sitting on my desk.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
You'd better ask Duo Seraphim.
Personally I quite like Thérèse for a number of reasons, but apparently that casts doubt on my taste and discernment.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
You'd better ask Duo Seraphim.
Personally I quite like Thérèse for a number of reasons, but apparently that casts doubt on my taste and discernment.
There's a doormattish, depressive sentimentality to her writings that sets my teeth on edge. Rather like your passive aggressive posturing does.
To compare St. Therese of Lisieux in theological thought to St Catherine of Sienna and particularly to her fellow Carmelite St Teresa of Avila is risible and arguably cheapens the currency.
Similarly a great deal of what we now regard as non-scientific Aristelian guff was written in the Middle Ages by educated people and indeed by serious thinkers. But then you also make the mistake of equating Hildegard with her misguided New Age followers. Actually you have misread me. I never suggested that Hildegard should be made a Doctor of the Church - you did. I prefer the testimony of the leading church and political figures of her time who consulted her for her wisdom and listened to her preaching.
If Therese is supposed to be the model for female roles in the Church, then I'll take Hildegard of Bingen any day. Or Blessed Mary McKillop. Or any number of tough minded nuns.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
...then I'll take Hildegard of Bingen any day. Or Blessed Mary McKillop. Or any number of tough minded nuns.
Or Mary Stigmata (AKA: The Penquin)
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
model for female roles in the Church
How topical ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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