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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Difficult relatives
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Good though, Kelly. Especially the bug resistance. Could have done with that. This thread is becoming a Philip Larkin celebration zone ... with bits of gratitude thrown in for good measure.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Uh, that was David. Huge compliment to me, but David will probably wreak horrible vengeance on you for insinuating he is anything like me. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Having said that, funnily enough I can relate to what David said-- and, in a milder way, with what Pyx said. Maybe a general weirdness about sickness is part of the whole NPD thing.
My mom is-- the sickest person in the family always, forever. God help you if display symptoms that might draw attention away from her, God help you even more if you display evidence of taking care of yourself. From November to December of last year, I had a few oral surgeries back-to-back, and the ensuing weeks were a nightmare of health competition.
This has been going on since sis and I were kids-- so that when were were going through all the normal childhood illnesses, not only were we pretty much expected to care for ourselves, but if we dared demonstrate our symptoms in front of her, we were quickly reminded of who the sickest person in the house was.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Basically, I suspect we have all had quirky mothers. By the time I was 39 and my mother was dying, I adored her. But there is no denying that she was quirky, and had her own ways of manipulating all 5 of us (and Dad, for good measure). Some good times (usually when we were obedient) bad times, too many to be counted. When we finally left home, we got on better with her, but oh, my! The quirkiness never abated.
I never doubted her love, but the quirkiness drove me batshit. All the grandchildren she lived to see adored her... mostly.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
A sudden burst of insight: motherhood forces a degree of manipulativeness upon you in many cases. Not wanting to be nagging all the time, knowing that telling a child (especially a teenager) not to do something might well push them further into doing it, needing to find a way to guide someone into doing the right thing or the safe thing or the best thing without causing tantrums or arguments or fights.... a bit like a sheepdog works a sheep into going the right way, not by picking it up and taking it there, but by "driving" it.
After nigh-on twenty years of adopting that approach, it's hardly surprising that it's a habit that's become ingrained.
Nastiness, on the other hand...
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
A sudden burst of insight: motherhood forces a degree of manipulativeness upon you in many cases...
Fatherhood too. But you're right that yer actual nastiness is to be avoided at all costs.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
In the end my 12th step programme forced me to deal with my bitterness and resentment. I had to speak to my family, my mum’s friends, anyone really. What emerged was a train wreck long before I was even a twinkle. I won’t go into detail but she was dirt poor as a child, she served and had a terrible War (WWII) including a breakdown, a marriage that ended horribly and broke her heart another to a vile abuser (third time she choose my Dad for his pliable nature). To top it all her much loved Father died while she was carrying me. Dickensian really.
I had to stop blaming her and start understanding her, the more I did that the more I loved her (even forgave). The worst is that I have always known she absolutely loved me the best she could. Mostly her best was just not good enough (says he, renowned for his hard heart) but the truth was it was her best, and that is all you can ask for. I suppose. What a weird thread.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Pyx_e has the right of it. My mother was pretty batshit crazy too. And she did horrible damage to both my brother and I. Which doesn't stop me from missing her now that she's gone.
She obviously didn't teach you English grammar.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Look who came by to take dump.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Pyx_e has the right of it. My mother was pretty batshit crazy too. And she did horrible damage to both my brother and I. Which doesn't stop me from missing her now that she's gone.
She obviously didn't teach you English grammar.
Are you always an asshole, or just here?
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Pyx_e has the right of it. My mother was pretty batshit crazy too. And she did horrible damage to both my brother and I. Which doesn't stop me from missing her now that she's gone.
She obviously didn't teach you English grammar.
And yours nothing approaching manners.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
My mother is an extremely toxic person. Without going into sordid detail she did a real number on me while I was growing up and it's only after some pretty intensive therapy that I've come to realize that I'm not the awful failure and all around shit she told me I was. I have had no contact with her for going on 2 years on, save the odd sniping email from her. I'm a stronger, healthier person for it.
Pushing another human being through your vagina makes you a mother, it does not make you a mum. There's no magic nurturing dust they sprinkle on you in the delivery room. I have been blessed through the years to know some wonderful, caring, loving maternal women. My mother does not happen to be one of them.
Perhaps it is a failing on my part that I cannot find the grace or understanding to fully forgive my mother. Considering all the other failures in my life, it's just one more thing I will have to answer for in the hereafter.
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Look who came by to take dump.
I see what you did they're.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Pyx_e has the right of it. My mother was pretty batshit crazy too. And she did horrible damage to both my brother and I. Which doesn't stop me from missing her now that she's gone.
Yeah to that. There's an old story in therapy circles that you miss a bad parent more than a good one. I don't know if it's true or not, but I believe it.
By the way, fuck grammar fascism, innit? Whatever.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
you miss a bad parent more than a good one
That bodes ill for someone I know. Eventually.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
My mother is an extremely toxic person. Without going into sordid detail she did a real number on me while I was growing up and it's only after some pretty intensive therapy that I've come to realize that I'm not the awful failure and all around shit she told me I was. I have had no contact with her for going on 2 years on, save the odd sniping email from her. I'm a stronger, healthier person for it.
Pushing another human being through your vagina makes you a mother, it does not make you a mum. There's no magic nurturing dust they sprinkle on you in the delivery room. I have been blessed through the years to know some wonderful, caring, loving maternal women. My mother does not happen to be one of them.
Perhaps it is a failing on my part that I cannot find the grace or understanding to fully forgive my mother. Considering all the other failures in my life, it's just one more thing I will have to answer for in the hereafter.
See I am somewhere in between you and Pyx. On the one hand, The whole "did the best she could" doesn't resonate with me, because both my parents made significant choices that made their lives more comfortable and ours more hellish. A woman dragging a preteen girl with mono out of her sickbed and screaming at her about not washing the bowl from the soup she had to stagger out of bed to make herself, and then screaming straight in her ear when said girl is pleading with her to stop yelling because she has an earache, is not "doing their best." A man who corners his teenage daughter in the hallway the evening that her boyfriend broke up with her and giggles that of course someone would dump and ugly, zit-faced slob like her, and why did she think any guy would want her/? is not doing his best.* Maybe I need more program, but I can't see it that way yet. To me, "doing your best" means something other than doing the most horrible thing you can think of.
In ACA, they talk about doing a "blameless inventory" where you do get to talk about the horrific behavior of your alkie/ cody parents, but to the end of understanding the nature of the illness and aborting it in yourself.
So, going down that road, I do have flashes of compassion for my mom who, since I live with her, poses an extra problem for me. What strikes me is, when you have built up such a need for overt reassurance of your importance, and play such manipulative games to get them, how on earth can you really believe that anyone cares about you? How can you be sure that someone is actually acting out of genuine feeling for you, rather than out of a desire to appease you?
ANd I had a big, big moment with my dad, in which I realised (contrary to what I had been told) I have enough memories to confirm that I did try to bond/ befriend/ play with him when I was a kid, when my mom remarried, and he just couldn't do it. And then I asked myself-- if I were in a position where some little six year old girl was trying to play with me and I couldn't, how would I act? Angry, that's how. Disgusted with myself and the world. Wow, gigantic sections of my childhood explained!
So I see that will probably have a similar moment with my mom someday but right now I can't blame or excuse, I just need to get away. And have a significant space of time to be out of her influence, completely.
*I deliberately chose things that I witnessed rather than endured, so as to avoid accusations of pity-mongering, I have plenty of these stories of my own, but for some reason I only allow myself to feel the rage when I talk about what I saw happen.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Look who came by to take dump.
I see what you did they're.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
It was five in the morning. Give me some slack. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Kelly, I described over 50 years in 2 small posts, you got to be who you got to be. Lions gonna lion. Sorry if I made it sound easy or complete.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I don't know if this helps anyone here. hope it does.
My mom is awesome. We have our issues, but for the most part I consider myself very lucky. She is an explorer, a naturalist, a feminist (in the good sense), an activist, a musician, an actor, and generally a wonderful mother and grandmother. She ain't rich, she's a little stuck in her (post-hippie) ways, and she will never suffer a redneck. but she's generally amazing.
plus, when her red locks turned gray, she dyed them all the colors of the rainbow. so she's a tattooed almost-70 punk rocker looking mama, too.
I hear lots of talk about how having abusive parents will fuck you up, make you a dysfunctional human being, make you a terrible parent.
My mom was raised by a single mom. my grandmother was mentally ill and an alcoholic who did all the kinds of stuff I'm reading here and more. She was a classic abuser. when my mother was 18, she was given custody of her mother, as well as her little sister. things were bad.
But my mom is great. I can't ask for better. she raised me right, she has done right by me and hundreds of students she's had over the 40 years she's had of teaching, not to mention her foster kids and random collection of lost causes she straight-talked back onto their feet. She is respected in her community (and a few others) and is even in a few books for her work as an educator.
So yes, your shitty parents can fuck you up. but that doesn't mean they will. Don't lose hope. your kids, your students, your parishioners, etc may someday be singing your praises just like this.
There is nothing wrong with you.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Look who came by to take dump.
I see what you did they're.
It was five in the morning. Give me some slack.
Lyda, mdijon and I both thought you were being smart by missing out the "a". Challenging a nazi-grammar call, we thought. Or so I think.
But that's 'cos you are smart, of course. Now we know you won't take a compliment you don't feel you deserve. That makes you double-smart, dunnit?
Maybe that should have been innit?
Anyways, nice move. Take a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Such skills are very useful when handling difficult anybodies.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The worst part of dealing with a mother who has a bad view of life is you can learn to shield yourself from the manipulation, but there are times when you talk to yourself and you hear her voice offering the dysfunctional opinion.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah. This is very common. Like comet said, you can be a fantastic person despite abuse, but damn, it takes mighty hard work.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There's an old story in therapy circles that you miss a bad parent more than a good one. I don't know if it's true or not, but I believe it.
My first reaction to this was bullshit.
However, I think this is a probable dynamic in a number of relationships.
My parents are both alive, so I cannot personally attest. However, I've two uncles who died prematurely. One who was greatly loved by many, a surrogate parent at times to me. I celebrate his life and mourn his death and think of him often.
The other died alone after alienating most of his family, including his own children. He did nothing to me, but the havoc he wrought lessened my care for him. When I do think of him, it is with sadness, but not nearly so strong.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I hate to say it, but even though Dad and I had done significant fence-mending in the two years before he died, there was still a part of me that felt huge relief when he died. And there are still times I wake up from terrible dreams and have to reassure myself that he's dead.
I am sure mileages will vary, but he simply did not provide me with much to miss, as far as personal memories. If anything, i miss the person he never was allowed to be- but I only have a vague idea who that is.
[ 29. January 2014, 01:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Kelly, I described over 50 years in 2 small posts, you got to be who you got to be. Lions gonna lion. Sorry if I made it sound easy or complete.
Oh God, in no way did I take it that way. I was just analyzing my own progress.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Lyda, mdijon and I both thought you were being smart by missing out the "a". Challenging a nazi-grammar call, we thought. Or so I think.
So I still think. This 5am thing is a cunning double-bluff designed to really annoy Francofile.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Every time someone annoys that tool an angel gets its wings. Fuck that guy.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Look who came by to take dump.
I see what you did they're.
It was five in the morning. Give me some slack.
Lyda, mdijon and I both thought you were being smart by missing out the "a". Challenging a nazi-grammar call, we thought. Or so I think.
But that's 'cos you are smart, of course. Now we know you won't take a compliment you don't feel you deserve. That makes you double-smart, dunnit?
Maybe that should have been innit?
Anyways, nice move. Take a Such skills are very useful when handling difficult anybodies.
(I don't dare write a reply. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Every time someone annoys that tool an angel gets its wings. Fuck that guy.
Not in any way, shape or form.
Besides, you'd be done up as he's naught more than twelve.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) You are my guardian angel, girl.
[ 29. January 2014, 04:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
(I don't dare write a reply. )
Very neat. Keep building the ambiguity.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There's an old story in therapy circles that you miss a bad parent more than a good one. I don't know if it's true or not, but I believe it.
My first reaction to this was bullshit.
However, I think this is a probable dynamic in a number of relationships.
I don't know if you miss them more but I do think that death of a person does not necessarily solve all the problems for the living. I have recently had to work through some stuff about my paternal grandmother who has been dead a long time. I felt nothing when she died, except maybe relief.
Maybe it's not that you miss them more, but that the grieving process can be more complicated.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Basically, I suspect we have all had quirky mothers. By the time I was 39 and my mother was dying, I adored her. But there is no denying that she was quirky, and had her own ways of manipulating all 5 of us (and Dad, for good measure). Some good times (usually when we were obedient) bad times, too many to be counted. When we finally left home, we got on better with her, but oh, my! The quirkiness never abated.
I never doubted her love, but the quirkiness drove me batshit. All the grandchildren she lived to see adored her... mostly.
Man, there are some heady stories on here, and I have not done it so tough as most. I identify well with the last line above. I know my mother loved (and loves) me, mostly because she does stuff for me (including ironing, as discussed upthread) - but also, makes meals which she believes are amongst my favourites if I visit, etc. When I was a kid, she made awesome birthday cakes for my sister and I, and handmade clothes, etc., etc. Now, on some rational level, I appreciate this. However, my enduring memories of childhood are the following soundtracks: Side A.) "Sit up straight! Stand up straight! Don't slouch! Don't scowl! Don't sulk!", Side B.) "Well, you did that to yourself, didn't you? Well, what did you expect, really? What did I tell you?" She also (I remember this vividly, as something which just made NO sense), was very distressed that the arches of my feet fell when I was about ten. This was attributed to me doing too much running about in bare feet, and, as near as I can tell, was a tragedy because it was kind of 'common'. For the record, I do slouch - terribly, and I have forward head posture and neck problems as a result. I got pretty sulky as a result of constantly being told not to sulk. I have since realised (after being pulled up about 'attitude' by bosses) that my problem is 'bitchy resting face'. I don't give a shit about my fallen arches.
The interesting thing is, my Dad, who was also as mad as a sack of rats, in his own particular way, I remember with great affection - and he has not been dead long enough for me to romanticise his memory. No, he was crazy too, but my sister and I loved him to bits, because he was on our side.* He didn't sit there and say, "Well, I did tell you, but would you listen to me?" He'd give you a cuddle. He cried when one of my pets died. Even at six, I thought it was unlikely that he was that distressed by the death of a rabbit, so I asked him what was wrong. He said "I can't bear to see you so unhappy." He could have been a thousand times more embarrassing and paranoid than he was, and he would still have had my unswerving devotion, just for this. I miss him.
*I don't mean 'on our side against our mother' here, just to be clear. Just that he got empathy and solidarity and that.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
My relationship with my family is not good. One of the reasons I live 500 miles away and that every time I visit them I end up so stressed out I need significant psychiatric input (yes why I visit them is indeed a very good question).
The strange thing is I find the minor things they do more irritating then the Really Bad Things. The Really Bad Things seem almost normal (yes I am a fuck up) while the minor things make me want to scream.
As my parents grow older I do spend more time thinking about what I'll feel when they go. I think it will be a mixture of feeling truly safe for the first time in my life and sadness at the relationships we could have had but their behaviour made impossible.
They do make me laugh though. My siblings and I share a little list of our favourite ridiculousnesses. Mine is when I was seriously ill in hospital less than a mile from my parent's house for over a week and the only contact I had from them was one text saying, 'I would come and visit you but I've got to walk the dog.' This compares with the weeks of abuse I got because I couldn't visit my dad when he broke his arm because a) it was a broken arm, he was going to be fine, b) I lived 500 miles away and c) I was a witness in a major court case at the time.
I mourn the relationships I have with my family every day. I don't think I hate them but I do hate the game of happy families we play when we do get together when everything is a lie, everyone is acting and I want to scream.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There's an old story in therapy circles that you miss a bad parent more than a good one. I don't know if it's true or not, but I believe it.
My first reaction to this was bullshit.
However, I think this is a probable dynamic in a number of relationships.
My parents are both alive, so I cannot personally attest. However, I've two uncles who died prematurely. One who was greatly loved by many, a surrogate parent at times to me. I celebrate his life and mourn his death and think of him often.
The other died alone after alienating most of his family, including his own children. He did nothing to me, but the havoc he wrought lessened my care for him. When I do think of him, it is with sadness, but not nearly so strong.
I don't think it's bullshit, and I think the analogy with uncles is a bad one, because they don't normally bring you up.
I think the word 'miss' is problematic, since it might suggest 'think fondly of', but here it really means that it's hard to mourn a bad parent, and it takes a long time. However, it's also useful, as something is missing.
And if you don't mourn them, they tend to get inside you, and fuck up your relationships, your work, your personality, your sex-life, etc.
But I think that people don't want to mourn a bad parent - they just want to forget them, but you can't, otherwise we just recreate them in our lives.
The most obvious example is abuse: many people who were seriously abused either find someone else to abuse them, or become abusive, (in other words, they repeat it all). But this can be halted, by the ghastly work of letting go of the abusive parent.
Old joke: old Jewish lady says proudly, 'my son goes to a psychiatrist every day, and he mainly talks about me!'
[ 29. January 2014, 10:56: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
A man who corners his teenage daughter in the hallway the evening that her boyfriend broke up with her and giggles that of course someone would dump and ugly, zit-faced slob like her, and why did she think any guy would want her/?
And with that Pyx_e's mom becomes parent of the year, because even though her stubborn need to be right was almost fatal, it wasn't deliberate cruelty. When I think of how my parents', much milder, words of criticism hurt, I can't imagine how she even survived this.
Chive's annual visits that need a follow up trip to the psychiatrist reminded me of mine. My doctor once gave me a twenty pill bottle of an anti-anxiety medication. After about five years I asked for a refill. He made some joke about how I obviously wasn't abusing them and I said, "Well, I only need them when I visit my parents." Then we both laughed as it reminded us of a line from a Woody Allen film.
My favorite movie line about family is from The Joy Luck Club. One of the young women cries about something mildly critical her mother had said to her and tells her mom that she has the power to hurt her more than anyone in the world. The mother tears up and says, "That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me."
My son's prime memory about me being cruel is from a trip to the Dairy Queen when he was about five. Evidently he said he wanted green ice cream and I sneeringly said, "They don't have green!" I have no memory of this traumatic incident, and as I was a young, free spirit, hippie type mother, it would have been more like me to have praised him for his original tastes, but I guess I was having a bad day, or looking at his father or something, and there you have it -- bad memory, number one, for the therapist.
It makes me wonder if our parents even remember the things we have so much trouble forgiving them for.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Twilight wrote:
My favorite movie line about family is from The Joy Luck Club. One of the young women cries about something mildly critical her mother had said to her and tells her mom that she has the power to hurt her more than anyone in the world. The mother tears up and says, "That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me."
What a corker that is.
I've already told my old Jewish lady psychiatrist joke, so here's a famous psychiatry joke:
Woman goes to shrink, and lists a long list of calamities in her life; he makes copious notes, childhood abuse, lousy marriages, ungrateful children, and so on.
She seems to be winding up, and then says, 'but there is one bright spot - my sex life is now absolutely wonderful'.
Shrink groans, puts his head in his hands, and murmurs, 'we are in really really deep shit here'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, my enduring memories of childhood are the following soundtracks: Side A.) "Sit up straight! Stand up straight! Don't slouch! Don't scowl! Don't sulk!", Side B.) "Well, you did that to yourself, didn't you? Well, what did you expect, really? What did I tell you?"
And let's not forget the bonus tracks "You're useless" "You're pathetic" "let me look at your schoolbooks and point out everything that's wrong, and not mention anything that's good" "your younger sister is so much more wonderful than you, we approve of everything she does, and nothing that you do".
Between us, I think we've got the full box set ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Great post Twilight. My fav Woody Allen (“Manhattan” I think) is when in reply to the sentence “Just think of him as having two Mothers” he says “Raised by two mothers...wow, most of us barely survive one” my family crease up at that one.
We were in a restaurant a few years ago and in the booth next door our daughter and her friends were complaining about their parents. We overheard stories of smacks and groundings, no phones and no car. Our beloved chirped in “Yeah my Dad gave me such a bollocking for squeezing the toothpaste out of the middle of the tube.” Which just goes to prove its all subjective. I often remind her of what a hard life she had. The irony is of course is the way she nags the ass of her partner for squeezing the toothpaste out of the middle of the tube.
And I really do struggle with the fact that for good or bad most of my gifts are similar to my mothers, some of my strengths and empathy come from the battle I fought to be free of her and ultimately understand and forgive her. You think you have dealt with it and then threads like this crop up, sigh.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, my enduring memories of childhood are the following soundtracks: Side A.) "Sit up straight! Stand up straight! Don't slouch! Don't scowl! Don't sulk!", Side B.) "Well, you did that to yourself, didn't you? Well, what did you expect, really? What did I tell you?"
And let's not forget the bonus tracks "You're useless" "You're pathetic" "let me look at your schoolbooks and point out everything that's wrong, and not mention anything that's good" "your younger sister is so much more wonderful than you, we approve of everything she does, and nothing that you do".
Between us, I think we've got the full box set
Oh I think we're just getting started.
My father's lines leaned toward the military with:
"Why don't you kids police the area!"
"Look at me when I'm talking to you!"
and the borderline funny ones like:
"Want to take a chance on a comb?"
"You left the lid sitting khakiwhampus and it's all over the counter!"
Inevitably followed by:
"Wipe that stupid grin off your face!"
Stupid Grin being my own resting face.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the word 'miss' is problematic, since it might suggest 'think fondly of', but here it really means that it's hard to mourn a bad parent, and it takes a long time. However, it's also useful, as something is missing.
And if you don't mourn them, they tend to get inside you, and fuck up your relationships, your work, your personality, your sex-life, etc.
But I think that people don't want to mourn a bad parent - they just want to forget them, but you can't, otherwise we just recreate them in our lives.
This I can agree with.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, my enduring memories of childhood are the following soundtracks: Side A.) "Sit up straight! Stand up straight! Don't slouch! Don't scowl! Don't sulk!", Side B.) "Well, you did that to yourself, didn't you? Well, what did you expect, really? What did I tell you?"
And let's not forget the bonus tracks "You're useless" "You're pathetic" "let me look at your schoolbooks and point out everything that's wrong, and not mention anything that's good" "your younger sister is so much more wonderful than you, we approve of everything she does, and nothing that you do".
Between us, I think we've got the full box set
Mother to shop assistant who is struggling to find anything to fit me: "You won't believe it, but my *other* daughter is SO petite!"
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
'I'll pray for you' with a sad shake of the head and a huge dollop of passive aggression.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
My Mother's bi threat was 'If you don't do what I tell you, I'll have you made a ward of court'
I don't think she knew what that actually meant
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
You think you have dealt with it and then threads like this crop up, sigh.
You don't HAVE to read it, Pyx_e....
About mums who say things like 'I'll have you made ward of court', I remember having a conversation with Wood, also brought up in Jannerland, where they (used?) to say some truly awful things to their children, eg. 'I'll feckin' murder you when you get home!' - when I first went to school and heard some mums yelling this at their children, I couldn't understand why they weren't terribly upset. It took me quite a while to realise that, whereas I took it literally, most of those children knew it was just a figure of speech, and the dire threat wouldn't really happen. So they just ignored it. And, consequently, the mums shouted it louder.
Janners, eh?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
I was threatened with boarding school (money for a school trip was begrudged, so why they would have paid for boarding school is beyond me...).
I was also told once "I'll throw you out of that window, and you won't come back in because you'll be dead".
"If you're not asleep within 5 minutes you're going to get a good hiding" - that when she needed me asleep to go over the pub and join the rest of the family - obviously spending time with her son was so abhorrent that it needed to be over asap.
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Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
It is not about addressing real problems, but the method used.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
It is not about addressing real problems, but the method used.
That's part of it. Some parents focus entirely on the negative aspects of their children and ignore anything even remotely positive, such as talent and skill or simply being a nice person to have around. That inability to encourage a child can have awful consequences.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
It is not about addressing real problems, but the method used.
What lilBuddha said. Do you point out the faults with the schoolwork by saying something like "this isn't good, here's some ways you could improve", or do you say "that's wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong", and then walk out of the room leaving the child feeling wretched?
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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