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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Difficult relatives
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
And if you're a bitch on wheels owing to something that happened at work that day, do you 'fess up and apologize for taking oyur shitty attitude out on the family?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
hell, yes.
I spend a large percentage of my time apologizing to my family.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Of course. Call yourself out.
I was talking to a colleague the other day,a nd said as a teacher I go one step further and announce my crappy moods to the class before I say anything stupid, and give them permission to point out that I am being crabby if I slip. Boy you watch your attitude when you have given a room full of children permission to call you out.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the word 'miss' is problematic, since it might suggest 'think fondly of', but here it really means that it's hard to mourn a bad parent, and it takes a long time. However, it's also useful, as something is missing.
And if you don't mourn them, they tend to get inside you, and fuck up your relationships, your work, your personality, your sex-life, etc.
But I think that people don't want to mourn a bad parent - they just want to forget them, but you can't, otherwise we just recreate them in our lives.
YES.
quote:
The most obvious example is abuse: many people who were seriously abused either find someone else to abuse them, or become abusive, (in other words, they repeat it all). But this can be halted, by the ghastly work of letting go of the abusive parent.
Yes, yes, yes.
So, one of the things I initially thought would be therapeutic about this thread was, by dragging out the more manageable annoyances and celebrating their stupidity, as it were, it would actually convert them into semi-fond memories. To chive-- I am projecting my own patterns on you probably, but I get irritated by the "small stuff" too- and I have grown to think it is because I disassociate so strenuously form the "big stuff" that I can only allow myself the irritation in a more manageable size. (In the same way that I can work myself into a red fury over things that happened to my sister, but when I think about things that happened to me, I want to get out of that memory as quickly as possible.)
At the same time putting words to the small irritations gives one an opportunity to see them in perspective, and a group of your peers helping you chortle over them can give you the strength to tackle the big stuff. And laughter helps you move from grieving your bad experiences to respecting yourself for having survived them.
And those of us who have survived deserve our measure of survivor triumph.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Great stuff, Kelly. I agree about respecting yourself for having survived, people deserve medals for the stuff they had to go through.
People usually say that you get what you can deal with; I don't really know if it's true or not, but the small stuff is often really important.
Hell, I'm nearly 70, and I'm still dealing with the big stuff - hope that doesn't dismay you! My parents were expert at laying guilt-trips, and so now I lay them on myself, in loving memory of them, ha ha ha.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
My experience as an aunt, a daughter and a teacher tell me that conversations like that are much easier* when they are not the only kind of conversations taking place. So that, it's not that you don't criticize, it's that you make sure you spend enough time genuinely noticing and enjoying and appreciating and celebrating the great things about your kid (student, nephew), when it comes time to point out a flaw, they have such a solid basis for your regard for them that they can take it.
And (paradoxically) a criticism from someone who is generally pleased with you is going to have a lot more weight than that of someone who acts like they expect the worst of you no matter what.
*Well no, they still might act like the world is ending. But have faith in those prior conversations, because that will be the difference between the child's misery being incidental and being a life- sentence.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
People usually say that you get what you can deal with; I don't really know if it's true or not, but the small stuff is often really important.
First of all, that's a misquote of Paul, and a lot of people hate it. Second, I think people in program would say, you get what will force you to admit you can't deal ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
you miss a bad parent more than a good one
I've been dwelling on this. Could it be that after a lifetime of having to push against all that negative stuff, when it is suddenly not there, the person cannot cope with the absence, or know how to redirect all that energy.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
But what if the kid really does slouch all the time? What if their school work is actually rubbish? Should it not be pointed out?
(This is why I shouldn't have kids I guess.)
As I pointed out, my mother wasn't mistaken about the slouching in my case, and it would certainly have been better for me in the long term if I could have learned not to do it. But the manner in which she went on about it communicated that either slouching was a sort of moral failing in me, an outward manifestation of an inward slackness, or that I was doing it to annoy her. As to the first, who can say? But for the second, I wasn't doing it to annoy anyone. It's just how I am - how I sit, how I stand, it feels completely natural to me and anything else feels unnatural. I know this because I have gone through periods in adulthood where I earnestly tried to cure myself of it. I end up going to bed about eight o'clock because the effort of being vertical is just getting too much...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Other than the one atop your head, did you have a point?
Your nanny needs to have better watch over your internet use.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
It suggests that GeneralissimoFrancophile's toxic shithood is entirely self-achieved. Just as well he is vanishingly unlikely ever to be a parent.
[ 29. January 2014, 20:23: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
I am not as good a parent as I could wish to be. I had hoped to be the kind of parent who doesn't shout at their children, but patiently explains. Well, sometimes I do patiently explain. And sometimes I shout. And sometimes I shout on purpose, because it is just the quickest way of stopping whatever behaviour is going on. And that I feel bad about. And yes, I just began four sentences with 'and'. How's your blood pressure?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Oooh - I post some of my experiences, then Francophile pops up from his sewer and has a go - I feel like part of the gang now ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
No shit, This is what just started playing when I read your post.
Fuck him.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
So that, it's not that you don't criticize, it's that you make sure you spend enough time genuinely noticing and enjoying and appreciating and celebrating the great things about your kid (student, nephew), when it comes time to point out a flaw, they have such a solid basis for your regard for them that they can take it.
But what if there aren't any? (Or you just can't see it) Do you just pretend?
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I personally have never met a kid who doesn't have some tiny hidden buttress of likeability somewhere, even if they are doing their damnedest to hide it from you. Sometimes they themselves have forgotten it is there. I can't speak for parents, but my job as a teacher- hell, simply as the adult in the situation- is to build on that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Glances up at Francophile)
I admit my faith in this statement is currently shaky.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
Who died and made you arbiter of the direction a thread's going to take down here? It certainly wasn't me.
The only deafening silence around here is the lack of electrical activity in your head as you fail to comprehend what the Hell board is actually for. If I'm going to start talking about warm, fuzzy parenting relationships, it's not going to be here.
[ 29. January 2014, 21:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I've been saddened to read of the hard childhood so many posters had. Certainly, I had my moments with parents, and in turn with Dlet, but nothing like the descriptions above. I know this is Hell, but can I offer prayers - and a specially hard one for Francophile.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
The only person I have said a bad word about on this thread is you. You asked for it then, you're asking for it again.
Why are you venting over people's right to vent in Hell? orfeo is right. You just don't get this place. Of course you can be pissed off with the pissed off. Which in turn gives everyone else the right to be pissed off with you. Which they are. And, frankly, who can blame them? Empathy level epsilon minus moron. Not even semi-moron. O brave new world, that has such assholes in it.
Away n' bile yir head ya stumur, dont be sae stupit!
[ 29. January 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Alright, who's the wise ass who is forcing Francophile to read this thread? Knock it off, already. It's plain he doesn't want to read it, and you forcing him to isn't helping anything.
Oh, what's that? No one's forcing Franco to read the thread? Why, butter my butt and call me a biscuit.
Well then, Franco, if you want to get upset about this thread and the contents thereof, you're certainly welcome to do so. But as you're neither Simon nor God, (nor any of the H&As), you get no say in how it goes down. Kindly stick it up your arse.
[ 29. January 2014, 22:53: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
Actually, I have admitted, on this thread, that I'm imperfect as a parent. as well as admitting I have a great parent.
on the level of Pyx_e's and others' parents? no. I'm imperfect but I'm not like that.
I yell at my kids, yes. usually when that's the only thing they'll hear, but often enough it's because I'm at the end of my rope. I have never called them names or belittled them - because I don't see them that way. I probably have risked their lives a few times - I get an adventuring bug up my ass and off we go hiking in the backcountry or rafting for ten days down wild rivers or driving 800 miles through winter blizzards on a lark.
but is sheltering them from adventuring and experiencing a good thing?
but yes, generally, you're full of shit. no silence here.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
you miss a bad parent more than a good one
I've been dwelling on this. Could it be that after a lifetime of having to push against all that negative stuff, when it is suddenly not there, the person cannot cope with the absence, or know how to redirect all that energy.
That's part of it. It's complicated - people also hold on for grim death to a bad parent, when they have gone. Partly, we wait for what we didn't get - I think it's possible to wait for ever. And they are just inside you - so how do you let go of them?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
RooK forgive me, I'm gonna feed the troll. He gets the attention he wants, but we get to blow off steam, so I guess it works out in the end.
You know why I've been reading this thread, but not posting? It's because my parents, fucked up as I may be, honestly did their best, and their best was, in the end, not that bad. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I really wish they had caught, times I honestly think they could have stood up for me, told me what I was doing was just fine, taken my side in a fight, rather than just worrying if they were doing the right thing—I never knew they were worrying about me, only that they were never taking my side against, among other things, the bullying I dealt with for ten years while in school—but that's being a parent who doesn't want their kid to be dependent, who wants them to think for themselves, figure things out on their own, etc. And so, I do; I may not have the confidence in my actions I should, or I always expect the answer to be "no," or I expect even the slightest of requests to involve a hard fight, but hey, that is what it is. Contrary to what my ex will tell you (fuck, she had issues), they weren't/aren't even remotely close to bad people. Heck, I'm probably a bad son for being a bit distant from them, just as I am with everyone else.
See that? It's the full extent of my ranting. "My parents fucked me up, but hey, they're parents. It happens to everyone." They weren't cruel, they weren't malicious, they weren't trying to destroy my life out of fear that I would have a better one than them (heck, if anything, it's the pressure to have a better life than them that's hard to deal with sometimes), so I ain't got nuttin' to rant about here. They're good people, y'know? I have my complaints, but I'm sure my nonexistant children would complain to their shrinks about me, too.
So, not all of us are victims. Not all of us are claiming to be blameless. I'm only saying I'm beyond reproach because I haven't any kids, and quite probably never will, and therefore don't have any kids to screw up. I have to wonder: what's your problem? Did someone call you abusive? Were you the person who believed in proper discipline, but whose kids were traumatized by it? Or are you just a lonely old git whom nobody loves and yells at the kids to get off his lawn?
Again, sorry for the trollfeeding, but someone had to mention their normalish past—and jerks bug me.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Again, sorry for the trollfeeding, but someone had to mention their normalish past—and jerks bug me.
I also had normal parents. Actually they were good parents. Boring eh? Perhaps I should post some poorly-confected trollish stuff to liven things up for myself.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh alright, I'll join the Kum Ba Ya circle. When I was a teenager, my best friend and I both agreed that I had the better parents.
I've seen them twice this week and it's been perfectly enjoyable and drama free both times. SO THERE.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, that' s how my ex's family was. It was weird as fuck. We would go to holiday parties, and everybody would actually enjoy themselves. I couldn't get over it. I even invited my mom along a few time to show her, "See? fun holidays! Ain't it weird?"*
I think I missed them more than him when we split.
*She, of course, immediately began explaining how everyone I got into a conversation with actually liked her much better than me. Simply bonding over how much we liked this-or-that person wasn't even on the table.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
ecumaniac - I cried the day I praised one of our most difficult children at pre-school for doing the right thing. You could see him swell with pride as he said: "I a good boy!" It made a huge turning point for him. I'd been making observations to try and work out how to help him and trying to catch him being good for weeks. Praise works. Concentrating on the good things about children helps.
And talking forgiveness - we can understand why our parents are the way they are, work out how that effects us, but still need to keep a distance for our own protection and that of our children. If you've been made to conform by physical force, it's very difficult to not fall back into those patterns of behaviour if you expose yourself to those influences and find that the responses beaten into you at a young age return to overtake those you've painstakingly trained out of yourself.
I read the John Cleese and Robin Skynner books: Families and how to survive them and the Life one - and that helped.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh alright, I'll join the Kum Ba Ya circle. When I was a teenager, my best friend and I both agreed that I had the better parents.
I've seen them twice this week and it's been perfectly enjoyable and drama free both times. SO THERE.
What is that noise? Is it FranklyaPile's heart, inspired by the nice comments, growing three sizes? My bad, just his zits exploding.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That was just unprovoked nastiness there.
Erin would have loved you.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
In tribute, I was trying to work up an "Erin", but gave up. She had skills in verbal assassination which I can't get anywhere near.
But I liked the lilBuddha continuation of the 12 year old theme as well. Wuz good! 6/10 on the Erin scale?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Funny how everyone posting their experiences is the misunderstood or bullied or badly-parented suffering child or somehow the victim of a relative's unreasonableness.
Are SoF posters only ever victims and never perpetrators? Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Deafening silence ensues. I thought so.
I have a theory: Francophile is anoesis' mother and she is mightly pissed off with this whole discussion.
[ 30. January 2014, 07:41: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Now Erin might have said "Are you anoesis's mother? Does she ever have all the fucking luck." Yep, there may be some channeling going on here at this point, LATA.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Is anyone prepared to admit in full detail to their actions as a mad/unreasonable/vicious parent along the lines of Pyx's mother?
Of course they bloody aren't, because if they thought that about themselves they'd change the way they act.
No, the issue with such parents is that they think they're doing the right things (or at least justifiable things), and the kid is the problem. We've been given one example of a parent trying desperately to get their kid to sleep so they can go out for the night - to the kid in question that felt like "you don't want to spend time with me", but to the parent it was probably more like "I've spent howevermany years of my life taking care of you, can't I have one fucking night to myself once in a while?"
I worry about what kind of parent I might be should I ever have kids - it's an unimaginable level of commitment and sacrifice, and often a thankless one. Would I be able to hack it, or would I be resentful of all the freedom I'd lost? It's a question nobody can answer until they actually have kids, and by then it's too late to find out that you shouldn't have had them.
I feel sorry for both sides.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Marvin: quote:
Would I be able to hack it, or would I be resentful of all the freedom I'd lost?
Yes.
Most people muddle through somehow, with the occasional flashes of resentment at not being able to do stuff that they took for granted BC (before children). It's not really an either/or question.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I worry about what kind of parent I might be should I ever have kids - it's an unimaginable level of commitment and sacrifice, and often a thankless one. Would I be able to hack it, or would I be resentful of all the freedom I'd lost? It's a question nobody can answer until they actually have kids, and by then it's too late to find out that you shouldn't have had them.
The thing that amazes me every day is how quickly and completely my children forgive me. They are 7 and 3, so it's early days yet. But it is an experience of absolution that rivals the sacrament of reconciliation - with none of the contrivance of the latter.
The heart-breaking side of that is that you get to see how it is that children continue to love and forgive parents who do the most appalling things to them - I'm thinking of some of the horrendous cases of abuse that come to light from time to time.
But for me, falling within the normal non-abusive range of shitty parenting - I hope - the experience of being forgiven totally and immediately by my children is the most wonderful experience of human love there is. Worth any amount of hard work.
[ 30. January 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Speaking as a son, son in law, and father of mature sons, ain't that the truth. With grandchildren in the mix, the double-truth. People goof off. Parents and children are people too. Sometimes both of those truths get lost. Hard to see through the both-way expectations. A mistake I've made in both directions. So have they.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Of course they bloody aren't, because if they thought that about themselves they'd change the way they act.
Marvin, I've warned you before about using logic to respond to mindless Hell rants. It upsets the minions.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Speaking as a son, son in law, and father of mature sons, ain't that the truth. With grandchildren in the mix, the double-truth. People goof off. Parents and children are people too. Sometimes both of those truths get lost. Hard to see through the both-way expectations. A mistake I've made in both directions. So have they.
Too true.
As a father of five I learned a helluva lot between my first born when I was 25 and my youngest at 38. It had its effect on my children and looking back I can see that my eldest is most like me, because I was more like my father when he was young.
Parents change.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That's the old theory that the first born gets all the shit flung at them, since the parents are young/fucked up/anxious, but if they have more kids, they relax more. I don't think it's always true, but it often is. There's a name for it, which I've forgotten. First born fucky uppy-itis, I suppose.
My wife just said to me that the first born also is supposed to repeat the patterns of one parent, whereas the others do it less so. I don't know about that one.
[ 30. January 2014, 10:25: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Marvin: quote:
Would I be able to hack it, or would I be resentful of all the freedom I'd lost?
Yes.
Most people muddle through somehow, with the occasional flashes of resentment at not being able to do stuff that they took for granted BC (before children). It's not really an either/or question.
God yes. Two things you can only say to other parents, or in Hell:
1. You wish you could live twice. Once with children, once without.
2. You only realise how great not having children is once you have them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by quetzalcotl:
quote:
That's the old theory that the first born gets all the shit flung at them, since the parents are young/fucked up/anxious, but if they have more kids, they relax more. I don't think it's always true, but it often is. There's a name for it, which I've forgotten. First born fucky uppy-itis, I suppose.
I know exactly when my firstborn reached all his milestones, I know what his first word was, and what he said the first time he put two words together.* I have a list of his entire vocabulary on his first and second birthdays.
My second must have started talking at some point, because she certainly talks enough now, but beyond that I have no idea.**
*"Up" and "Door shut" since you asked.
** Although I do know the date she first slept through the night and finally dropped the 2am feed, which was two weeks before her second birthday.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I worry about what kind of parent I might be should I ever have kids - it's an unimaginable level of commitment and sacrifice, and often a thankless one.
You can't be serious.
My kids give back a thousand, thousandfold the commitment and sacrifice I have given and continue to give. They are extremely cool kids and loads of fun.
If you put your kids first ( like any good parent should) I reckon you'd make a great parent.
[ 30. January 2014, 11:30: Message edited by: Evensong ]
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by quetzalcotl:
quote:
That's the old theory that the first born gets all the shit flung at them, since the parents are young/fucked up/anxious, but if they have more kids, they relax more. I don't think it's always true, but it often is. There's a name for it, which I've forgotten. First born fucky uppy-itis, I suppose.
I know exactly when my firstborn reached all his milestones, I know what his first word was, and what he said the first time he put two words together.* I have a list of his entire vocabulary on his first and second birthdays.
My second must have started talking at some point, because she certainly talks enough now, but beyond that I have no idea.**
*"Up" and "Door shut" since you asked.
** Although I do know the date she first slept through the night and finally dropped the 2am feed, which was two weeks before her second birthday.
I remember women who would sit by their sleeping new-born, worried in case he stopped breathing. I think with the second and third, that anxiety abates!
I also remember women who swore that the first born was the messiah - well, in a way, s/he is.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There are endless photos (well, mostly slides actually) of my older sister placed in front of various interesting locations in Europe, and at Disneyland. I sat through them all many times in my childhood.
Mum struggled to find a decent photo of me when I needed one for school for some reason.
I'm not bitter or twisted about this one little bit, no sirree. Nor about the fact that my sister lived overseas for a couple of years and went to Disneyland and I never left Australia until I was an adult. Nope. I'm fine with all of that. They looked after us both equally... ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Phone call with my mother this week.
She was talking about boys in general and reminiscing about my younger brothers in particular:
"Yes, as I recall they were very nervous about being left, boys are you know. I can't say I was concerned about you really as you were the eldest and the girl and were out there forging ahead....."
Hey ho!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by quetzalcotl:
quote:
That's the old theory that the first born gets all the shit flung at them, since the parents are young/fucked up/anxious, but if they have more kids, they relax more. I don't think it's always true, but it often is. There's a name for it, which I've forgotten. First born fucky uppy-itis, I suppose.
I know exactly when my firstborn reached all his milestones, I know what his first word was, and what he said the first time he put two words together.* I have a list of his entire vocabulary on his first and second birthdays.
My second must have started talking at some point, because she certainly talks enough now, but beyond that I have no idea.**
*"Up" and "Door shut" since you asked.
** Although I do know the date she first slept through the night and finally dropped the 2am feed, which was two weeks before her second birthday.
That's the other side of first-born fucky uppy-itis: first-born parental attention, guaranteed. Apart from pathological and criminal cases, once a first-born gets beyond babyhood, they are in as much danger of excessive attention. Kids like personal space too.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
you miss a bad parent more than a good one
I've been dwelling on this. Could it be that after a lifetime of having to push against all that negative stuff, when it is suddenly not there, the person cannot cope with the absence, or know how to redirect all that energy.
That's part of it. It's complicated - people also hold on for grim death to a bad parent, when they have gone. Partly, we wait for what we didn't get - I think it's possible to wait for ever. And they are just inside you - so how do you let go of them?
Entirely agree with this. I think every child is born with an intense innate expectation that his* parents will care for him. If that happens, and the hope is satisfied, the child can let go of the parental bond. But if he has drawn the short straw in the parental lottery, and the expectation is unfulfilled, that unconscious drive to look to the parent for nurture carries on all his life – with the associated anxiety caused by the conflict between the desire to get away from the abusive parent, and the desire to find nurture from the parent. Until the parent dies, at which point the ‘child’ is likely to grieve more for the loss of the hope of what might have been than for the loss of what was actually experienced.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
...
I read the John Cleese and Robin Skynner books: Families and how to survive them and the Life one - and that helped.
Both good books, especially Families ... - indeed anything by Robin Skynner is excellent. He was a family psychotherapist and certainly knew what he was writing (or speaking) about.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
My father is past 80 and he comes round to do my DIY. I let him. He enjoys it, feels that he's useful and not old, and I bring him cups of tea during and dinner after.
...[Text deleted to save space]...
And one day he will be dead, and I and my children will remember that he did my DIY when he was in his 80s.
Superb post, mdijon, very moving...
Angus (Both parents now deceased, so it’s all water under the bridge...)
*Generic usage (as in subsequent occurrences)
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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