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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
In these days of direct debits and bank transfers, cheques are increasingly rare and many people don't carry spare cash. I suspect 'passing the plate' during services is one of those traditions that will soon disappear. It has already in many places.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Fifty years ago it was standard practice in RC churches in Scotland to have two collections, one at the offertory and then one after Communion. That is ignoring also the special monthly collection and the others at Christmas and Easter.
That has long since disappeared. We do have a second collection for a special occasion from time to time. Our present parish priest prefers that the second collection should be a retiring collection, but those responsible for the collecting keep reminding him that a retiring collection will be significantly lower than one where a plate is put directly in front of the churchgoers. So many people will just slip past a plate which is held out at the door of the church.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In other words in exactly the same way that it is dealt with at my place, its just that you don't label them as separate.
Not really, if I understood you correctly, as in my tribe both would be collected simultaneously at the Offertory, not one at the Offertory and the other at the door as people leave.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In these days of direct debits and bank transfers, cheques are increasingly rare and many people don't carry spare cash. I suspect 'passing the plate' during services is one of those traditions that will soon disappear. It has already in many places.
We still have lots of people who pay their pledge by check, which they put in the plate. There are also lots of smaller churches around here that don’t have electronic payment methods.
That said, we’ve started putting cards in the pews that can be used to note electronic payments or to note/offer non-monetary contributions, particularly in terms of volunteering, whether with the church or elsewhere. We went this direction for a couple of reasons:
• a sense that collecting an offering serves a meaningful purpose;
• a desire to emphasize that the offering is about more than money;
• a desire to enable everyone, including those who give electronically or whatever, to participate; and
• a desire to gather information about all the ways members of the congregation give of their time and their talents.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Interesting, Nick. Do you get many people using the cards to inform you of their gifts and talents?
It's certainly important to emphasise that stewardship is not just about £££ (or $$$)!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There are also lots of smaller churches around here that don’t have electronic payment methods.
I have my bank configured to send my contribution to the church monthly. What this means in practice is that the bank prints a check and mails it to the church, who then banks it.
quote:
That said, we’ve started putting cards in the pews that can be used to note electronic payments or to note/offer non-monetary contributions, particularly in terms of volunteering, whether with the church or elsewhere.
We ask people to pledge whatever level of financial support they can annually (which helps with budgeting) and on the same form invite people to pledge all the non-monetary support they offer (volunteering in whatever capacity). As you say, we need money, but we don't just need money - we need people to commit to being a community.
Cards noting electronic or whatever payments made to support the church were brought up at our AGM a couple of years ago. There was one person who was keen that some kind of indicator or token representing his personal offering be brought to the altar to be blessed, and nobody else who thought they would take advantage of such a facility.
The one person said that his current practice was to place a couple of dollars in the plate and consider them a marker for his rather more substantial automatic contribution, and that he was happy to continue with that. So we all shrugged and said "OK then".
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
Are there any security concerns about either procedure and what does your auditor say? Ours would be very unhappy about it.
[ 05. January 2018, 20:12: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have noticed how in Spain the collection is taken up in cloth bags. Enquiring of a local why this was instead of collection plates, he said that there were two explanations; either that it reduced the embarrassment from the sound of coins in the plate, or the possibility that breezes might cause the banknotes to fly away.
The late spouse of one of my former colleagues grew up gay in a Lutheran household in Missouri in the 1950s and had many stories about the experience. He told me that he attended a service where a neighbouring Holiness minister informed worshippers as the plate was being passed that he did not want to hear the jingle-jangle of the devils' hooves, but the gentle rustle of the angels' wings.
As my home parish features many SCA rejectees who really wish that they could place half-crowns, livres and sols, and wampum, as their offering, most of the collection comes up as cheques in envelopes. The parish treasurer would dearly love more of us to convert to electronic automatic payments. I suspect that he would happily allow the SCA types to place beaver pelts or beads on the plate as their symbolic offering if they would but sign up to an automatic payment.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... As my home parish features many SCA rejectees who really wish that they could place half-crowns, livres and sols, and wampum, as their offering, most of the collection comes up as cheques in envelopes. The parish treasurer would dearly love more of us to convert to electronic automatic payments. I suspect that he would happily allow the SCA types to place beaver pelts or beads on the plate as their symbolic offering if they would but sign up to an automatic payment.
What does SCA stand for please?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... As my home parish features many SCA rejectees who really wish that they could place half-crowns, livres and sols, and wampum, as their offering, most of the collection comes up as cheques in envelopes. The parish treasurer would dearly love more of us to convert to electronic automatic payments. I suspect that he would happily allow the SCA types to place beaver pelts or beads on the plate as their symbolic offering if they would but sign up to an automatic payment.
What does SCA stand for please?
As John D Ward answered. My apologies for not giving the specific reference, as I should have.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I'm not sure if I should be worried that it looks like fun. And I looked for a group near me.
When I lived in Sydney, my (Orthodox) church did not take a collection but had a locked box near the candles up the back. GeeD, or his auditor, may have concerns, even if I add that we rented a hall so people came in via the front.
The box afforded minimal security (single, ordinary lock) but no issues were ever noted.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John D. Ward:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What does SCA stand for please?
Society for Creative Anachronism
Well that's certainly something I've never heard of before. I don't think they're well known round here. There is something called The Sealed Knot which recreates battles of the Civil War (the one in the 1640s).
[ 07. January 2018, 07:03: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
In the UK you tend to get LARPing (live action role playing - think historical reenactment for D&D campaigns) rather than SCA - actual historical reenactment tends to be strictly historical. I do know clergy who have official to semi-official ministries with both tabletop and live action role players - I'm sure I've seen something about it at Greenbelt.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
My apologies for not giving the specific reference, as I should have.
You're just a naughty little boy.
Meanwhile .. cloth bags are used at my wrong side of the tracks joint ... these days of polymer bank notes (outside the USA which seems to stick determinedly with indistinguishable slices of paper) they become a little tricky, as the notes are springy and one has to push them down into the mouth of the bag, giving a visual impression of pilfering.
Which reminds me of a mortifying moment when I was eight, at boarding school (yes ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ), at which we had to put five cents into the offertory plate each Sunday night at chapel. I guess the compulsory offering was designed to express our immeasurable joy at encountering The Divine™ in liturgy and the thrilling prospect of the week's tedium now imminent, but I parenthesize). To my horror I realised I had spent my five cents on a five cent pick and mix bag of lollies (NZ-speak for candy/sweets). Creative, I reached out and touched the coins, pretending to place mine amongst the gifts my confreres had given to their loving, munificent God.
A prefect's hand flashed out and grabbed my wrist, and I was interrogated fiercely as to why I was attempting to steal God's money.
Fortunately he was a friend of my older brother (and, funnily enough, a Facebook friend of mine nearly 50 years later) and permitted my defence to stand. (Oh ... and he is a lawyer these days: perhaps I started him on his career path).
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
We used to do that but didn't get as much money - so we went back to the old way.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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JLB
Apprentice
# 10670
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Posted
We do that, and a short while after starting we compared giving for several weeks either side of the change. We found it made no difference to the amount given. It has also encouraged regular members of the congregation to give by bank standing order now that they don't feel obliged to be seen to put their gift in the plate.
Posts: 28 | From: wiltshire | Registered: Nov 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Our own, and other churches at which I worship, no longer pass a plate. It is st the entrance so those who wish can place a gift in it as they arrive (making use of Gift Aid envelopes if they wish). The offering is presented and dedicated during the service, but there is still a plate at the back after the service for any who wish to make an offering but missed the plate on their way in.
Are there any security concerns about either procedure and what does your auditor say? Ours would be very unhappy about it.
In our place, the plate is out in a prominent public place (within the building) and under the eye of the duty warden and the welcomers, so there's minimal chance of someone taking the whole thing, and probably less chance of someone slipping something out of the plate, than there is if plate or bags are passed down the pews. In other places I have been to where the plate is in an entrance vestibule, the welcomers take it in with them when the service begins, so again there's not much chance of it being 'lifted'.
We do find that at big services (baptisms, for example) there is less in the plate (not because anything is taken out), but that seems to be a fair price to pay to avoid expecting a random attender at a baptism service to pay for something they may not really want to be at, and don't fully understand, thereby confirming their impression that the church is always asking for money.
We make an occasional exception for some big services where the collection is going to some external good cause (e.g the Children's Society at our Christingle service).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by BroJames quote:
We do find that at big services (baptisms, for example) there is less in the plate (not because anything is taken out), but that seems to be a fair price to pay to avoid expecting a random attender at a baptism service to pay for something they may not really want to be at, and don't fully understand, thereby confirming their impression that the church is always asking for money.
Tsk, tsk! You are aren't doing it right!
For what could be termed 'occasional' services you "seed" the plate - in other words start the ball rolling by putting in, say, a £5 note and a few £2 coins: this shows those who may not be regular attenders the appropriate amount to think of giving.
This practice started at our place by accident: we had a private baptism (Yes, I know, not ideal) pretty soon after a Matins and the sidesperson on duty was rather slow and the plate was put back into church with the notes still on it. To everyone's surprise the giving from a smallish congregation was more than five times what it had been for the previous baptism where there were more people. So now we "seed" the plate every time - and in our defence I'd point out that in the winter particularly the cost to heat the church for a wedding is well over £100 ....
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
My childhood (Church of England) parish in the 1980s had a plate at the back of church for people to give as they came in. It wasn't passed around during the service. That remains their practice today.
Similarly, my (Eastern Orthodox) parish of ten years had a locked box by the candles, in a similar arrangement to the one mentioned by Ian Climacus, and never took a collection during the service.
I remember a time in my early 20s, when I was unemployed and had nothing to give, and I belonged to a CofE church where passing the plate was the practice, there were some Sundays I just didn't want to go. It was humiliating. Perhaps a little lesson in humility was no bad thing for me, but creating a situation where everyone can see what their neighbours are putting into the plate, or whether people are putting anything in at all, seems unkind.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by BroJames quote:
We do find that at big services (baptisms, for example) there is less in the plate (not because anything is taken out), but that seems to be a fair price to pay to avoid expecting a random attender at a baptism service to pay for something they may not really want to be at, and don't fully understand, thereby confirming their impression that the church is always asking for money.
Tsk, tsk! You are aren't doing it right!
Hmm. In our experience it’s not for want of something already in the plate that we don’t get as much at such services as we would if the plate was passed around.
It does also cost us to heat the church for winter weddings, but that is a legitimate charge included in the fees for ‘winter’ weddings, and not something we hope to recoup from the collection.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I know what I think are 'All Age Worship Services'* but have just come across a very different use of the terminology.
Has anyone else come across this as Catholic Renewal style worship by congregations belonging to The Society described in this way?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sorry the '*' above should link to:
*Good 'All Age Services' are services where consideration is given to people accessing worship in a variety of ways and each able to gain something from the worship. They tend to be multi-sensory, multi-paced and engage on a number of intellectual levels. They are very difficult to do. Bad 'All Age Services' are worship where the content is dumbed down that it insults a Junior School-aged child in the hope that everyone can follow.
Jengie
[ 09. January 2018, 13:57: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
They are very hard to do. It's hard enough to put a film on which my kids (13, 11 and 9) would all watch, let alone trying to cater for toddlers and coffin-dodgers as well. Best I can suggest is "short" so anyone finding it crap doesn't have to suffer long. Our services are all all-age (we only meet twice a month) and with half an hour and some well chosen AV we manage something that works for us. But there's lots we don't do - we don't do congregational singing, except, for reasons not entirely clear, but it has so evolved, the Sanctus. It solves (often quite central) arguments over hymns or worship songs - we don't do either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Short is good - Our Place has a monthly Saturday afternoon 'Crafty Church' which begins with a short act of worship, about 15 minutes max.
The kidz (age range is 7-12) enjoy it (!), and many eagerly volunteer to read the prayers (short) or Bible passage (very short).
The service includes 2 or 3 songs (or even 'grown-up' hymns), and is lay-led.
Our Sunday morning Eucharist often has a few children attending, but there is currently no separate 'Sunday School'.
The youngsters are therefore in church for the whole service, which very rarely lasts more than an hour.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...some well chosen AV we manage something that works for us. But there's lots we don't do - we don't do congregational singing
Wondering how you use AV if you don't have congregational singing. I thought AV usually meant PowerPoint slides of praise songs (but that's only something I've experienced in real life one time).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, PowerPoint (or whatever) can also be used for the words of congregational prayers, or for images illustrating the sermon etc.
I'd like to pick up Karl's remark about no congregational singing, though. Does your church, Karl, have singers/musicians who perhaps exercise that ministry on the congregation's behalf, much as a cathedral choir would do at Evensong, IYSWIM?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, PowerPoint (or whatever) can also be used for the words of congregational prayers, or for images illustrating the sermon etc.
I'd like to pick up Karl's remark about no congregational singing, though. Does your church, Karl, have singers/musicians who perhaps exercise that ministry on the congregation's behalf, much as a cathedral choir would do at Evensong, IYSWIM?
IJ
No. It's just not something we do. There are bad memories in the church of tedious traditional hymns and overbearing Charismaticism, often in the same people, and we've very much become a congregation for people who couldn't cope with either or both. It's just something we don't do. Apart, strangely, for this African Sanctus which we have a recording of but which people started singing along to. It's amazing how traditions catch on. We meet in the back room of a pub so we're a bit short on organs and I can only imagine the hyperventilating and panic attacks if someone turned up with a guitar and rainbow strap.
We sang a few carols on Christmas Eve, after the service.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...some well chosen AV we manage something that works for us. But there's lots we don't do - we don't do congregational singing
Wondering how you use AV if you don't have congregational singing. I thought AV usually meant PowerPoint slides of praise songs (but that's only something I've experienced in real life one time).
Ye gods no, we'd rather eat our own earwax! We use AV extensively; we use it for clips which tie into the theme of the lectionary, and often thoughts on the theme from places like http://www.theworkofthepeople.com/ to expand on it. Oh, and for the responses in the Eucharist. We're not complete iconoclasts.
We meet in the back room of a pub. We had to give up our own premises for financial reasons; the original café idea didn't quite work out for us, but fortunately the vicar is good friends with the bloke who runs a pub so we meet there. Means you can have a pint on the go during the service.
[ 10. January 2018, 21:30: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, Karl. Your outfit sounds a bit like a 'Fresh Expression' begun a few years ago in this Fair City by a Pioneer Minister, though IIRC, they started from scratch in a pub.
Now I come to think of it, I don't know if the group - some 20-25 peeps - still meets, the priest having gone to another Diocese some while back.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Sounds like a really great church, Karl. Thanks for sharing what you do.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Thanks. It works for us, I think is what I'd say.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Senex
Apprentice
# 18906
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Posted
A bit of an obscure question but looking at answers to posts here I think answers may be forthcoming.
I always thought that at a celebration of Eucharist / Mass the bread and wine for consecration had to go on the additional cloth, the corporal. At most services I go to that seems to be what is done.
But then I have seen big celebrations with loads of silverware and that cannot be happening. I think I am right as well that at some of the really big services not everything is even on the one table.
So .... is it just that the corporal is desirable but not actually necessary?
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Senex:
A bit of an obscure question but looking at answers to posts here I think answers may be forthcoming.
I always thought that at a celebration of Eucharist / Mass the bread and wine for consecration had to go on the additional cloth, the corporal. At most services I go to that seems to be what is done.
But then I have seen big celebrations with loads of silverware and that cannot be happening. I think I am right as well that at some of the really big services not everything is even on the one table.
So .... is it just that the corporal is desirable but not actually necessary?
Strictly, no the corporal is not actually necessary. But indicates neatly the intention to consecrate all the elements placed on it. (Corporals do exist in varying sizes too - one could have a corporal covering the whole altar).
But it strikes me as a bit wrong not to have the elements to be consecrated on the altar itself. (Though the vessels used to hold the consecrated elements during the distribution might not be - e.g. you could have a very large chalice, from which smaller chalices more apt for communion are filled.)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We gear up of a Sunday with six ciboria, a bread box, a separate bread box of gluten-free wafers, either 7 or 9 chalices, and five flagons that each hold a bottle of wine. All of these cram up onto the holy table for the consecration, but there simply isn't room on the corporal for them all. However the celebrant always touches each vessel when he says the consecrating words.
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Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
We just lay out more than one corporal.....
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I've also seen, on at least one occasion, a corporal the size of a tablecloth.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Senex
Apprentice
# 18906
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Posted
Thanks for the replies.
A follow up comment or two...
At these big papal masses I have seen Several tables used to put the chalices and plates on. So it seems it’s about what the priest intends to consecrate is consecrted even if not at altar where ‘main action’ is.
For me this would explain how sometimes the cruets contains wine and water remain on altar side even after they have been used to pour wine into chalice.
But it does raise the rather flippant question... how far can chalice be from the priest ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jan 2018
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Senex:
Thanks for the replies.
A follow up comment or two...
At these big papal masses I have seen Several tables used to put the chalices and plates on. So it seems it’s about what the priest intends to consecrate is consecrted even if not at altar where ‘main action’ is.
For me this would explain how sometimes the cruets contains wine and water remain on altar side even after they have been used to pour wine into chalice.
But it does raise the rather flippant question... how far can chalice be from the priest
Not sure about the Papal Mass you were watching but I read an article about one in the US. The hosts (bread) and wine intended to be distributed to the congregation at a stadium Mass was consecrated by priests other than the Pope who would be attending the Papal Mass at a separate Mass prior to the Papal one, with one giant table serving as an altar. The bread and wine consecrated at the Papal Mass itself was only for the Pope (and perhaps the altar party) to consume, and an army of deacons distributed the pre-consecrated hosts and wine to the congregation by intinction (dipping) only (although a recipient could request to only receive the consecrated bread without intinction if s/he wished, I believe). This was under Benedict XVI, so Francis may do things differently, and different countries may have different practices when they host the Pope.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Senex:
So it seems it’s about what the priest intends to consecrate is consecrated even if not at altar where ‘main action’ is. . . . But it does raise the rather flippant question... how far can chalice be from the priest
This brings to mind the old saw that the nuns used to tell us in Sunday school: If a priest happened to be walking by a bakery, and happened to look in the window, and happened to speak the words of consecration as he did so . . . then every loaf of bread in that bakery would become . . . (You know the rest of the story).
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
]This brings to mind the old saw that the nuns used to tell us in Sunday school: If a priest happened to be walking by a bakery, and happened to look in the window, and happened to speak the words of consecration as he did so . . . then every loaf of bread in that bakery would become . . . (You know the rest of the story).
And if he happened to walk past a wine shop?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, the Sacrament is valid in either kind...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I don't think our nuns drank wine. Hot chocolate was probably their strongest treat.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We gear up of a Sunday with six ciboria, a bread box, a separate bread box of gluten-free wafers, either 7 or 9 chalices, and five flagons that each hold a bottle of wine. All of these cram up onto the holy table for the consecration, but there simply isn't room on the corporal for them all. However the celebrant always touches each vessel when he says the consecrating words.
In the Byzatine Rite, the opposite solution is adopted. The symbolism of the "one cup" takes precedence over other considerations. So, for celebrations with large numbers of cummunicants, the chalice is as big as it needs to be. It all fits on the antimins so there's no concern about the location of additional chalices, into which the Precious Blood is dispensed only after the consecration.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oddly enough I think the Reformed Churches of Christ had a similar concern and dispensed from the chalice to the wee cuppies.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Oddly enough I think the Reformed Churches of Christ had a similar concern and dispensed from the chalice to the wee cuppies.
I've seen that in some Lutheran churches over here. Those chalices are referred to as pouring chalices.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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