|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
It's another example of the mistake of thinking worship is primarily didactic.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
In your tradition, is the Last Sunday after Epiphany now termed "Transfiguration Sunday?"
And is the colour, white or green?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In your tradition, is the Last Sunday after Epiphany now termed "Transfiguration Sunday?"
And is the colour, white or green?
Isn't the Transfiguration the 6th of August?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
It is indeed, Enoch.
The transfiguration gospel figures in the RCL on either the second Sunday of Lent or the Sunday before Lent, as it looks to the passion.
There is an American Lutheran church, of which Gramps is a member, who have created an Epiphany season running from Epiphany to the Sunday before Lent and seeing the Transfiguration as a example of epiphany. They are perfectly entitled to do that, but it is not why the transfiguration was originally connected with time of the year.
I like a bit of green between Epiphany and Lent.
(The C of E ends an Epiphany season at Candlemas, for which there is ancient precedent. The RCs end it on the Sunday after the Epiphany, their feast of the Baptism. For the Orthodox, the Epiphany is the feast of the Baptism.)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
So you can call it 'the special prayer for today.' - yuk!
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In your tradition, is the Last Sunday after Epiphany now termed "Transfiguration Sunday?"
And is the colour, white or green?
Never heard of this.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
So you can call it 'the special prayer for today.' - yuk!
Yuk and double yuk!
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In your tradition, is the Last Sunday after Epiphany now termed "Transfiguration Sunday?"
And is the colour, white or green?
Never heard of this.
See above. I've only ever heard of it from Gramps' posts here.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
So you can call it 'the special prayer for today.' - yuk!
Yuk and double yuk!
And trile yuk if everyone is invited to join in saying this special prayer.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
In your tradition, is the Last Sunday after Epiphany now termed "Transfiguration Sunday?"
And is the colour, white or green?
Never heard of this.
See above. I've only ever heard of it from Gramps' posts here.
The Revised Common Lectionary designates the last Sunday before Lent as "Transfiguration Sunday," and the gospel reading is the story of the Transfiguration. It is regularly observed as such by Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed, Methodists and other denominations on the side of the pond. In those churches, the color will be white.
From my observation, at least around here the Transfiguration us still officially August 6 in Episcopal churches, but it is rarely observed as such unless there happens to be a regularly-scheduled service that day anyway. The Transiguration will also be commemorated on the last Sunday after Epiphany, but it likely will not be called "Transiguration Sunday." Can't speak to the color.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
So you can call it 'the special prayer for today.' - yuk!
Yuk and double yuk!
And trile yuk if everyone is invited to join in saying this special prayer.
Heartily agreed! Good New Year's Resolution for all leaders of liturgy: say the black, do the red. Simples. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 01. January 2016, 14:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
May we start a new liturgical questions thread for the new year?
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
May we start a new liturgical questions thread for the new year?
Surely you should have made that suggestion on the first day of Advent!
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zappa:
[qb]
So does a bunch of wobbly nonchalant voices obeying the vacuous invitation "let's all just read the collect together,"
I'm not too keen on well meaning MOTR priests introducing the collect not with "let us pray" but saying "The collect for the seventeenth Sunday after Trinity".
That is jargon. Those who understand what it means don't need to be told. Those who don't will be confused.
So you can call it 'the special prayer for today.' - yuk!
Yuk and double yuk!
And trile yuk if everyone is invited to join in saying this special prayer.
This triune horror is very firmly established here, and all the others on the ministry team helping out during the vacancy love it, and think it should continue.
The chances of a competent liturgist eventually being appointed chaplain are slightly less than my chances of winning Euromillions, so what can one do?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
new question
In this MW report on the 10.30pm service on Christmas Eve, Shepherd at the Desert Church, Sun City, Arizona, there's a reference to a separate Children's Talk. How many other places can there be which assume there will be children at the midnight service - even if it isn't actually quite as late as midnight? I was amazed. The only ones I've ever seen there have been in the treble and alto lines of a choir.
Is it the UK or Arizona that is out of kilter with the rest of the world on this?
Personally, I'd also, incidentally, have been uneasy about including Father Christmas in service. However moving (rather than cheesy) it might have been, I'd have found the message his presence conveyed very confusing.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
This triune horror is very firmly established here, and all the others on the ministry team helping out during the vacancy love it, and think it should continue.
The chances of a competent liturgist eventually being appointed chaplain are slightly less than my chances of winning Euromillions, so what can one do?
I can see plenty of reasons why you or anyone else might not like it. I'm not that keen on it myself. But why is it specifically a liturgical error?
1. I don't think one can avoid the accusation that 'collect' is Revspeak, religious jargon that conveys very little even to educated parishioners.
2. There doesn't even seem to be unanimity on its etymological history. So insisting on its importance as a descriptive term isn't reliably saying all that much.
3. Since the congregation says "Amen" to it, since it doesn't contain any element that is restricted to the ordained and since in some places even now, parishioners are encouraged to use it during their own daily prayers, it is very difficult to argue that any error is being perpetrated by having them all say it rather than just the leader/president.
4. For many years, the congregation has been encouraged to join in the Collect for Purity and the Evening Collect. As far as I am aware, not even the most liturgically picky have ever deprecated their doing so.
The precious can continue to look down on all those who either do not have their liturgical sensitivity or who sit rather more lightly on it. Can you, though, actually persuade the unpersuaded to agree that it matters, that this is anything more than another version of the feeling that the service doesn't 'work' since the lectern was moved three feet to the left?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
There doesn't even seem to be unanimity on its etymological history. So insisting on its importance as a descriptive term isn't reliably saying all that much.
Since the congregation says "Amen" to it, since it doesn't contain any element that is restricted to the ordained ... For many years, the congregation has been encouraged to join in the ....Evening Collect. As far as I am aware, not even the most liturgically picky have ever deprecated their doing so.
Wrong on 3 counts:
Lay people also say 'Amen' to the eucharistic prayter but that doesn't mean they can usurp the role of the priest in saying it altogether.
The collect was the prayer said by the bishop when all had arrived (having come in small groups to avoid arrest) in the early church. So it's the bishop's prayer -or delegated to whoever he allows to preside.
The 3rd collect at Evensong is part 3 of 3 and should be intoned like the other 2.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
Very fair questions, Enoch (and Leo has replied before me to some points, but I'm not rewriting this lot now!). I'll have to admit my comment was slightly 'tongue in cheek',but let me try some answers.....
1. Entirely agree with you here. In our service sheet I label it 'Prayer of the Day: The Collect'.
2. OK. I think the balance of historical opinion would say it is the ancient 'Oratio ad Collectam' - The Prayer at the Gathering (of the people) - the ancient beginning of the service, the President calling the assembly to prayer after the singing during the entry of the ministers. A surprising number of people love to know these details, enriching their sense of the historical continuity of the liturgy.
3 Yes. I would say that in a hieretic liturgy it belongs to the Leader of Worship, who of course need not be ordained. At the risk of starting another favourite Ship hare, in terms of personality types, structured and hieretic liturgy 'works' for a surprisingly high proportion of the Personality Types represented in the average congregation.
Because the Collects were not written to be recited by congregations, many of them use phrases and grammatical constructions which aren't easy for a group to read aloud. And the first casuality when corporate recitation is introduced is always the balancing and beautiful Trinitarian endings mistakenly cut off (since the error entered print with the 1662 BCP) as '...through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.'
4 Series 2 (1967) onwards invited the congo to join in the Collect for Purity by printing it in bold and lining it out for recitation. The 'Evening Collect' hasn't been presented in the same way, and corporate recitation of this is far less usual, though I have heard of it being done.
Does that help explain my thinking?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
Sorry, I seem to be on my way to providing my own trinitarian ending! Or is repeating myself a sign of advancing age????
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
It seems that every time I tried to edit I reposted. Please will a host rationalise this mess (the last version is the best one!) and save me from a bill for taking up too much space? Thank you.
[no problem -- JH]
[ 02. January 2016, 23:17: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Asking the congregation to say the collect is excluding the illiterate.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
That is indeed a very valid point.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Of whom there are very few now, at least in the UK, so we needn't worry excessively about that, but of whom there would have been a lot more in 1549/1662 etc. And now I think of it the parts in the BCP services that are for the congregation to say do, don't they, tend to be either following the words of the minister, or fairly short things that are easy to memorise.
But why on earth would anybody want the congo to join in the collects etc? Just some phoney milk-and-water concept of inclusiveness, I guess. Pah.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
Total illiteracy is relatively uncommon, but functional illiteracy is more widespread than we imagine, and reading ages vary - hence the varying linguistic registers of daily newspapers.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The Literacy Trust gives UK rates of 1% illiteracy, 5% with a literacy level below that of an 11 year old and a 16% rate of functional illiteracy. That 16% wouldn't be able to cope with the collect of the day.
(Literacy problems are much more common than most people realise.)
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Asking the congregation to say the collect is excluding the illiterate.
That's all very well, but that argument equally excludes them from singing the hymns, whether in a hymn book or projected onto a screen. Are you suggesting we should revert to lining out for the sake of a small minority, who are probably not present anyway?
[ 02. January 2016, 21:56: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Memorising hymns/worship songs is going to be much easier for a functionally illiterate person (or indeed a person with limited English, which churches in the wake of a huge refugee crisis may well have more of) given that most churches have a relatively limited repertoire. Collects change daily, hymns won't.
That said, I think the congregation saying the collect is just unnecessary liturgically-speaking regardless of a congregation's literacy skills. Although it's not the most elegant Eucharistic prayer, Prayer H is a better example of more interactive liturgy in my opinion.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
My tongue was in my cheek. However although most people can read and write, many will be confused by elaborate directions like “We turn to page 3 in the blue books and say together the prayer at paragraph 5.” And so they don’t join in and sense they are not part of what’s going on.
As Pomona says with characteristic wisdom, it's just unnecessary.
And it reinforces the misleading impression that the service is words in a book rather than an embodied act of worship by a body of people.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Memorising hymns/worship songs is going to be much easier for a functionally illiterate person (or indeed a person with limited English, which churches in the wake of a huge refugee crisis may well have more of) given that most churches have a relatively limited repertoire. Collects change daily, hymns won't.
Ever actually counted them. For my Ph.D. I worked out that there were probably around 600-800 different hymns each congregation could sing. An active repertoire of 400 and another about 200-400 enough knew in the congregation so that if chosen they would sing them.
That is quite a lot of memorising to do.
Jengie
p.s. a major failing of Church Hymnary 3 was that it had under 700 hymns; 800-1000 is held to be about right. Congregational Praise with over a thousand was held to be too long.
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
Jengie, that is a fascinating statistic, but as a retired parish priest feels a tad optimistic. Do you mean 600 different tunes, or 600 different hymns that can be sung to maybe 200 different tunes?
My own experience suggests that an average congregation can sing maybe 150 different tunes with some confidence. My Aspieness and musical memory enabled me to know around 500, and that led to me being treated with semi-divine reverence by many of my organists. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Surely you aren't suggesting that I have simple ministered in below average settings all my life without my being average enough to realise it? Quelle horreur! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Or might it be a denominational thing, with Anglicans generally being hymnologically challenged?
[ 03. January 2016, 10:11: Message edited by: Offeiriad ]
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Just curious: did anyone do/hear the proclamation of the dates of moveable feasts today? How about blessing chalk? Eat king cake? Any other Epiphany traditions I'm forgetting?
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
Isn't Epiphany this coming Wednesday?
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
Jengie, that is a fascinating statistic, but as a retired parish priest feels a tad optimistic. Do you mean 600 different tunes, or 600 different hymns that can be sung to maybe 200 different tunes?
My own experience suggests that an average congregation can sing maybe 150 different tunes with some confidence. My Aspieness and musical memory enabled me to know around 500, and that led to me being treated with semi-divine reverence by many of my organists.
Surely you aren't suggesting that I have simple ministered in below average settings all my life without my being average enough to realise it? Quelle horreur! Or might it be a denominational thing, with Anglicans generally being hymnologically challenged?
In the second congregation my method was to mark on my copy of hymn book (bought specifically) what hymns were sung each week. This gave me over 200, however I was consistently getting 50% new hymns each week. On a mark and recapture method it is possible to estimate the actual population size.
Then there were the occasions when someone brought up a totally unused hymn, usually at a sing-hymn-a-long around the piano where people chose the hymns. Normally there were enough who knew the hymn to sing these hymns despite they were never used in formal morning worship.
The standard hymnbook was Songs of Fellowship with the BBC for the few that it missed.
Oh I have no idea how many hymns I know. I suspect somewhere over a thousand, my assumption in any URC is that I know a hymn not that I do not know it. I am not exceptional Baptist Trainfan, Busyknitter and the belated Ken all would have similiar repertoire as well as many others.
The 150 is actually not a good measure of your congregations actual breadth of hymn singing. That is the set of hymns you will use in worship that they know, not the full set of hymns they will sing. The advantage that both my congregations had was that there were a variety of Sunday preachers.
Jengie
[ 03. January 2016, 18:09: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
For the Rc church if the 6th January is not a public holiday the solemnity is moved to the nearest Sunday.
6th Jan is in Europe a public holiday in Austria,Cyprus,Spain,Finland,Greece,Italy,Portugal.Sweden and Slovakia,also in a number of the German states and a Holyday of Obligation in Ireland.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
|
Posted
Does anybody know the approximate length of the ordination of a bishop in the RCC? I'm attending one this month but have only attended ordinations to priesthood before.
[ 04. January 2016, 15:23: Message edited by: ArachnidinElmet ]
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
Series 2 (1967) onwards invited the congo to join in the Collect for Purity by printing it in bold and lining it out for recitation.
And, of course, the 'Prayer of preparation' isn't technically a 'collect'.
Formally, it's a collect.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
Series 2 (1967) onwards invited the congo to join in the Collect for Purity by printing it in bold and lining it out for recitation.
And, of course, the 'Prayer of preparation' isn't technically a 'collect'.
Formally, it's a collect.
…and is designated as a collect by both 1662 BCP and 1928 Prayer Book
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Jengie - that is interesting, but I think churches who use worship songs more than a hymnbook tend to use a much smaller repertoire. In my experience they tend to be the churches who would be more likely to get the congregation to say the collect and so on. It's the higher churches who - generally - have a more sacerdotal view of things (so some things are for the priest because of the priestly office) who will use office hymns and work their way through the New English Hymnal.
Are we including seasonal hymns/carols?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Offeiriad:
Series 2 (1967) onwards invited the congo to join in the Collect for Purity by printing it in bold and lining it out for recitation.
And, of course, the 'Prayer of preparation' isn't technically a 'collect'.
Formally, it's a collect.
…and is designated as a collect by both 1662 BCP and 1928 Prayer Book
but it isn't an 'oratio ad collectam'.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
|
Posted
It is a Collect in terms of technical construction, but I believe it (and the Lord's Prayer that went with it) comes from either the 'Preparation' or the 'Vesting Prayers' of the mediaeval Sarum Rite.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
In the second congregation my method was to mark on my copy of hymn book (bought specifically) what hymns were sung each week. This gave me over 200, however I was consistently getting 50% new hymns each week. On a mark and recapture method it is possible to estimate the actual population size.
How long did you do this? I'm not sure if the assumptions underlying the mark and recapture method are met here. (Actually, I know they're not; the question is to what extent that skews the result). M+R assumes that there's no correlation between being captured in one sample and being captured in the next, but most churches deliberately avoid picking the same hymn two weeks in a row, and certain hymns will only occur at certain times of year. This means there's a pretty substantial negative correlation between being picked from one week to the next, and positive one between picked on two weekends a year apart, breaking the assumptions on the model.
I would guess that most Catholic congregations would have a smaller hymn repetoire than most Protestant ones, but I'm still surprised at how large a count you got.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Does anybody know the approximate length of the ordination of a bishop in the RCC? I'm attending one this month but have only attended ordinations to priesthood before.
The rite isn't much more complicated than ordination to the priesthood, but the more bishops you have involved the more things seem to get dragged out! I imagine there might be lots of 'showcasing' parts of the diocese which might take time too. So, in short, I have no idea. I'd guess 2 hours. I'd be interested to hear back from you once the deed is done.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
How many other places can there be which assume there will be children at the midnight service - even if it isn't actually quite as late as midnight?
Our place always has two or three children as acolytes at that service - where by children I mean between about ages 6 and 12. There's usually a couple of other children of similar age in the congregation.
In all cases, they are children of families who are "involved" at church, and so probably have a parent in the choir, serving as a LEM or something.
We'll get several more teenagers, but they'd neither be expecting a "children's talk" nor consider it a particularly late night.
[ 04. January 2016, 18:48: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
It's beside the point whether it's the oratio ad collectam or not. A collect is a prayer of a certain formal structure. The Collect for Purity is one, and so are (most of) the Collects, Secrets and Post-Communions of the pre-V2 Roman Rite.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Does anybody know the approximate length of the ordination of a bishop in the RCC? I'm attending one this month but have only attended ordinations to priesthood before.
The rite isn't much more complicated than ordination to the priesthood, but the more bishops you have involved the more things seem to get dragged out! I imagine there might be lots of 'showcasing' parts of the diocese which might take time too. So, in short, I have no idea. I'd guess 2 hours. I'd be interested to hear back from you once the deed is done.
Many thanks, Adam. That's helpful. My (former as of yesterday) parish priest is being ordained in Westminster at the end of the month and I'm thinking practicalities for those of us attending. I'd be happy to let you know how it went.
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's beside the point whether it's the oratio ad collectam or not. A collect is a prayer of a certain formal structure. The Collect for Purity is one, and so are (most of) the Collects, Secrets and Post-Communions of the pre-V2 Roman Rite.
It has the form of a collect and the text was originally a collect.
But it doesn't have the function of a collect in the 1662 BCP and derivatives. It is a prayer of preparation.
I'm very glad that it is not treated as mandatory (as it hasn't been in the CofE since Series 2 IIRC). I regard it as a MOTR shibboleth.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm very glad that it is not treated as mandatory (as it hasn't been in the CofE since Series 2 IIRC). I regard it as a MOTR shibboleth.
Well said. It is a beautiful prayer and well-suited to private preparation for the Eucharist. I tried as a compromise saying it with the congregation before the entry hymn, following it with a time of silence, but the MOTR legalists eventually succeeded in having it moved back to within the liturgy. Like the Prayer of Humble Access, these prayers of private devotion don't fit very well into the structure of modern liturgies.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Well, that could be an indication that the modern liturgies aren't very good.
Just kidding. Mostly.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
And it does't fit in with the structure of primitive liturgies, more to the point.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
