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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Barefoot Friar

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Good ideas all! Thank you.

I can be talked out of the Eucharist for the noon service, as I'm planning an evening service at the other church, which will have a bit more time.

I will go over the '79 BCP rite as a dry mass and see how long it takes, leaving off the elements suggested above.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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NatDogg
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We are looking for some elegant basins and pitchers (preferably sets or complimenting pieces) to use for the Maundy Thursday foot washing.

What we currently have is not that attractive or useful -- some largish clear plastic tubs that are unwieldy to maneuver and just plain ugly. Can anyone point me to an artisan, church supply house online garden center -- anything -- where we could explore some more dignified alternatives? Thanks.

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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
We are looking for some elegant basins and pitchers (preferably sets or complimenting pieces) to use for the Maundy Thursday foot washing.

What we currently have is not that attractive or useful -- some largish clear plastic tubs that are unwieldy to maneuver and just plain ugly. Can anyone point me to an artisan, church supply house online garden center -- anything -- where we could explore some more dignified alternatives? Thanks.

What we use are two sets of old washbasin and pitcher sets - the kind that you can often find in most 2nd hand dealers/antique shops. Price depends on quality, of course - but most of the cheaper ones even would b better than a plastic wash-up basin.

If it is likely that a large number of people are going to come forward to have their feet washed, extra set of pitchers to be refilled by the servers (with addition of some oil of lavender as a suggestion) makes the whole process somewhat seamless.

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Gee D
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Go to your nearest Asian kitchen supply shop - decent stainless steel basins and pitchers are very reasonable prices. Just remember to use peanut butter to rub away the remnants of the price tags.

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NatDogg
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Thanks to you both!

Another question for general consumption. In the American Episcopal Church of any other Anglican what is the difference between a "sung" Eucharist and a "choral Eucharist? All these years and Episcopalian (and singer) and have never figured out a precise definition!

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Angloid
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I don't know that there is a precise distinction. But while a Choral Eucharist is of course Sung, a Sung Eucharist is not necessarily Choral. Choral implies a choir (professional, semi-professional or amateur) who sing non-congregational settings of the Ordinary of the Mass; a Sung Eucharist can involve congregational singing of simple settings for the Gloria and Sanctus, and not much else besides hymns. Choral Eucharist often, or usually, also implies that the priest will sing things like the Collect and Preface (unless he is Pope Francis).

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
In the American Episcopal Church of any other Anglican what is the difference between a "sung" Eucharist and a "choral Eucharist? All these years and Episcopalian (and singer) and have never figured out a precise definition!

I think "choral" means some things will be sung by the choir alone, without the congregation. Could mean the choir will sing the Ordinary (Kyrie, etc.) or parts thereof, or probably more commonly that the choir will just sing one or more anthems and maybe some or all verses of a psalm after the first lesson. "Sung" could mean the same thing or could mean there are hymns and the congregation sings the Ordinary but doesn't tell you anything definite about what the choir does, if there is one.
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Choirboi
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In the Episcopal Church USA, my understanding is that there must be at least two people present to celebrate the Eucharist. I am just looking for where this is written. I could not find it in TEC Canons.

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Liturgylover
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I think Angloid's description is as accurate as you can get with the caveat that one has to be prepared for surprises! A choral Eucharist will almost always deliver a choir singing an anthem and at least part of a choral mass setting, but some parishes and Cathedrals that do the same call that type of service a Sung Eucharist, and I have even been to a low church "Holy Communion (Sung)" - thinking that the service would be said with hymns - when out pops a choir who sing a Kyrie to Palestrina!
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Callan
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One church I know of invariably advertised Choral Evensong on Easter Sunday. It was indistinguishable from the common or garden sung Evensong that they held on the other fifty odd weeks of the year. I naively asked if they censed the altar during the Magnificat. No they did not! The most recent Curate had been allowed the use of a thurible during his First Mass. But in order to keep the choir happy he had not been allowed to fill it with incense at any point!

Basically a lot of these modifiers are synonyms for Ecclesiastical Poncing Around and Allowing The Choir Director To Give The Impression That He Runs The Ambrosian Singers And Not The Church Of St. Agatha By The Gasworks.

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L'organist
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posted by Gildas
quote:
Basically a lot of these modifiers are synonyms for Ecclesiastical Poncing Around and Allowing The Choir Director To Give The Impression That He Runs The Ambrosian Singers And Not The Church Of St. Agatha By The Gasworks.
I take it you have had a dispute or falling-out with an organist at some point?

An unscientific straw-poll of a few colleagues has come up with the following:

Sung Eucharist = said Preface & eucharistic prayer; if Kyrie, Gloria, etc are sung then of a simple setting that regular members of the congregation can join in; probably about 4 hymns.

Choral Eucharist = sung Preface; Kyrie, Sanctus & Agnus Dei to a more elaborate setting sung by Choir alone; congregational singing limited to hymns only.

For Evensong, I'd expect "Sung" to mean Anglican Chant for Psalm and canticles - although a chance visitor might struggle a regular would be able to join in. Either said or simple ferial responses. There might be a choir and could be an anthem.

"Choral" Evensong: Congregation would sit for Psalm and stand for canticles which would be sung by choir alone; biggish anthem; probably more elaborate responses.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:


Basically a lot of these modifiers are synonyms for Ecclesiastical Poncing Around and Allowing The Choir Director To Give The Impression That He Runs The Ambrosian Singers And Not The Church Of St. Agatha By The Gasworks.

Or even an excuse for those who turn up to criticise and make faces which give the impression that they are chewing a wasp
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Callan
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Originally posted by l'organist:

quote:
I take it you have had a dispute or falling-out with an organist at some point?

Saucer of milk ma'am? I'm a clergyman. Of course, I have had a falling out with an organist at some point. Insert organist/ terrorist joke here. On behalf of the clergy may I point out that Ecclesiastical Poncyness is not the exclusive preserve of the church musicians and that there are lots of clergy who think that they are thwarted canon missioners in some gilded cathedral or other when, in fact, the Holy Spirit knew exactly what he was doing when he called them to be Vicar, sorry, Rector, father, of St. Agatha's Behind The Gasworks.

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Gee D
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For us:

Sung - the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei are sung by the congregation, along with the Eucharistic acclamation and the Doxology; the Psalm is said in response; the priest chants the preface and the final section of the Thanksgiving. All chant the Lord's Prayer. No communion motet unless the children's choir is listed on.

Choral - again, the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei are sung by the congregation but supported by the choir; the choir chants the Psalm and some in the congregation either join in or whisper with them; the choir also sings the Gospel acclamation in full, the congregation joining in for the Alleleuias. There will be at least one communion motet, usually 2. Otherwise as for sung.

We have 7, 8, and 10 am Eucharists each Sunday. The earlier ones are said, but for the 10 am, Sundays1,3 and 5 of the month are Choral, with 2 and 4 Sung. No Choral Eucharist in January as it is summer holiday season. Choral for the Feasts, which can mean that there is a Choral service on a second or fourth Sunday. The Choir is unpaid and drawn from the congregation - I've never counted, but there must be a couple of dozen or more all up, rarely the whole on any one occasion.

For the last year or so, we have been using what is called the Riddlesdown setting for almost all Eucharists. Sometimes the standard Oz setting by Dudman is used for Sung Eucharists - beforehand, it was used for all Sung, while we used the setting at the back of TEH for Choral services. The Choir will sing a Haydn or Mozart setting for the greatest feasts. They used sing the Charpentier for Midnight Christmas, but that seems to have dropped off.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Gildas
quote:
Basically a lot of these modifiers are synonyms for Ecclesiastical Poncing Around and Allowing The Choir Director To Give The Impression That He Runs The Ambrosian Singers And Not The Church Of St. Agatha By The Gasworks.
I take it you have had a dispute or falling-out with an organist at some point?

An unscientific straw-poll of a few colleagues has come up with the following:

Sung Eucharist = said Preface & eucharistic prayer; if Kyrie, Gloria, etc are sung then of a simple setting that regular members of the congregation can join in; probably about 4 hymns.

Choral Eucharist = sung Preface; Kyrie, Sanctus & Agnus Dei to a more elaborate setting sung by Choir alone; congregational singing limited to hymns only.

For Evensong, I'd expect "Sung" to mean Anglican Chant for Psalm and canticles - although a chance visitor might struggle a regular would be able to join in. Either said or simple ferial responses. There might be a choir and could be an anthem.

"Choral" Evensong: Congregation would sit for Psalm and stand for canticles which would be sung by choir alone; biggish anthem; probably more elaborate responses.

Sounds right to me. We have a weekly Sung Eucharist (with clouds of incense every Sunday), also the priest sings the Collect, Preface etc. Nothing is sung by the choir alone, which I think is the key difference.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Roselyn
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Isn't it interesting how many escaped former church choirs are wandering around loose? At least 4 I know of in Sydney
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Barefoot Friar

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Ok, but I thought that I had learned on this very forum that Said = priest, Sung = priest + deacon, and Solemn = priest + deacon + subdeacon. Am I incorrect?

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Low=Said Mass.

Missa Cantata/Sung Mass= Celebrant, with chanting and musical settings. The celebrant could be assisted by a deacon (without subdeacon), but this would not be the traditional or expected understanding.

Solemn/High/Solemn High= All three sacred ministers - celebrant, deacon, subdeacon - with full ceremonial and chant.

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Angloid
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'Solemn' in the modern Catholic rite surely doesn't imply the presence of a subdeacon since they no longer exist. Nor have they in the C of E since the sixteenth century.

EF Roman Catholics obviously have a different practice, as do many Anglicans. But in Anglican circles one often sees someone dressed up as a subdeacon doing little else than look pretty. They no longer read the Epistle since that is a layperson's job in most churches, nor do they have much of a role to play at the offertory (or not one that couldn't equally well be done by the deacon or a server). Tat for the sake of it.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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In traditional Anglo-Catholic liturgical use I would submit that "solemn" certainly does imply the presence of a subdeacon of the mass, who will more often than not be a layman who regularly serves in other roles in the sanctuary as well. Some places do maintain the ceremonies at the offertory through the canon, in which the subdeacon puts on the humeral veil, delivers the veiled chalice and paten to the altar, participates in the preparation of the chalice (hands off wine and water to the deacon), takes the paten within the folds of the humeral veil and holds it until the end of the canon -- the latter ceremonies being residual bits from very early times that I won't go into here). BTW, I'm not an apologist for some of these archaic ceremonies; I personally dislike all the hoo-hah with the humeral veil and the paten dance. In many places, the subdeacon's role is indeed simplified.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In traditional Anglo-Catholic liturgical use I would submit that "solemn" certainly does imply the presence of a subdeacon of the mass,

I don't agree. In the anglo-catholic 'shrines' that I know, 'high' mass had 3 sacred ministers whereas 'solemn' has one. Can't get the staff these days.

(Or any number of concelebrants but not a subdeacon can equal 'solemn'.)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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A subdeacon is not essential to make a Mass solemn. In contemporary usage, the three sacred ministers may consist of two assisting concelebrants. It is less usual nowadays for a liturgical deacon to be in priest's orders, and that only an actual deacon (i.e. not more advanced than that in holy orders) to assist the celebrant.

A church I know that advertises Solemn Evensong, makes the only "solemn" part of it by the priest unassisted by any servers and in choir dress with scarf and hood, donning a cope just for the Magnificat, to do the censing of the altar and of the congregation himself (with no-one to cense him). Apart from the Magnificat, the service would seem to be just sung.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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You guys need to have a look at Fortescue. And I can list any number of parishes in TEC and in the Diocese of London that have the three traditional sacred monsters for masses variously designated as solemn, high, or solemn high -- all the same basic drill.
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Angloid
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Dinosaurs all. [Razz]

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Callan
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I have certainly celebrated with three sacred ministers but it has generally been a case of Priest, Deacon and MC. On the couple of occasions when the MC in question was a twelve year old girl I jocularly referred to her as a Sub-Deacon (particularly when she assisted at an Easter Vigil where we ended up at the High Altar with the congo in the choir stalls) but I'm pretty sure that Fortescue would be revolving in his grave at that set of arrangements. I have been to Mass, for example in St. Bartholemew's Brighton where the traditional ceremonial and the role of the Sub-Deacon occurs but nowadays in most modern Carthlick places the third sacred monster is the MC.

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american piskie
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Can some student of church notice boards distinguish for me

(i) Sung Eucharist
(ii) The Sung Eucharist

?

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L'organist
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american piskie
One place mapped out what they wanted the sign-writer to do in full, the other didn't.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Can some student of church notice boards distinguish for me

(i) Sung Eucharist
(ii) The Sung Eucharist

?

(i) Sung Eucharist = any Sung Eucharist.

(ii) The Sung Eucharist = only one such service and possibly suggesting the principal Sunday service.

(iii) A Sung Eucharist (indefinite article) ???

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Dinosaurs all. [Razz]

Dinosaurs wearing maniples.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Beeswax Altar
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Suppose I wanted to use Penitential Order Rite One. Suppose I wanted to also use a projector. Does anybody know where I can find a projector ready version of a Penitential Order Rite One?

Odd combination I know.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Is this what you are after?
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3rdFooter
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Does anyone know the reasoning behind donning the chasuble just before the Eucharistic Prayer? What is, with a fair degree of snide, termed 'dressing for dinner'?

FWIW, it was the custom of our late incumbent which I have continued through interegnum. It would be nice to know why [Smile]

3F

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Mr Beamish
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Sounds suspiciously Sarum Rite, to me: if I recall correctly, there is a lot of vestment shuffling in the Sarum Rite. Is that the one you use? It could be a reference to it, or something else entirely.

When +Sentamu Ebor visited Blackburn Cathedral in 2011, he removed his cope before the Eucharistic Prayer. It was later suggested that this was done because he was unwell and far too hot underneath it. He was originally to preside but another cleric took his place to support him. Perhaps the chasuble was only put on to avoid unnecessary sweating during the Liturgy of the Word?

Have some speculation! [Biased]

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Forthview
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In the really olden days (until beginning of 1950s)the priest,in the Roman rite, would remove the chasuble at the sermon and replace it when he resumed the Eucharistic rite.The chasuble was seen as the Eucharistic garment and the sermon was not always part of the Eucharist.The priest wore a cope for the Asperges as it was also not strictly speaking part of the Mass.The Anglican custom of 'dressing for dinner' probably comes from this.
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leo
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In the 1950s and 50s, my 'home parish' followed Sarum usage but chasuble and maniple were always discarded for the sermon but resumed before the offertory (which immediately followed the sermon.)

The 'dress for dinner' approach is, i suspect, a misguided fashion when revised liturgies came in which had headings like 'ministry of the word' and 'ministry of the sacrament.'

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Offeiriad

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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Does anyone know the reasoning behind donning the chasuble just before the Eucharistic Prayer? What is, with a fair degree of snide, termed 'dressing for dinner'?

FWIW, it was the custom of our late incumbent which I have continued through interegnum. It would be nice to know why [Smile]

3F

I first encountered it in a Liturgical Commission booklet on presenting the liturgy, published with the study version of Series 3 c1969(?), and in a parallel Church in Wales publication.

I don't believe this was the absolute first sighting, however - the fact that two provinces were commending it at the same time suggests an earlier common source for the idea, but I personally doubt that it is much earlier than c1960.

To my mind it is very 1960's - shades of the 20th Century Light Music Group etc!

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3rdFooter
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I think Leo may have the heart of the issue. The service book has exactly that distinction in the headings.

For any curious about the Sarum rite , this should satisfy.

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Angloid
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I believe even the Community of the Resurrection at Mirfield tried the 'dressing for dinner' approach at one time. It didn't last.

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Offeiriad

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Angloid, you may have an important clue there! I wonder if the practice started out from (Relatively) nearby Kelham? This was a bit of a liturgical hot-house in those days, and my 'dressing for dinner' priest in those days was Kelham-trained.
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Barefoot Friar

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When to veil the sanctuary crosses? Dearmer says to do so before the first Sunday in Lent. However, I believe RC practice (and modern Anglican?) is to veil on the fifth Sunday in Lent.

If it matters, we vest in purple instead of Lenten array.

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NatDogg
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
When to veil the sanctuary crosses? Dearmer says to do so before the first Sunday in Lent. However, I believe RC practice (and modern Anglican?) is to veil on the fifth Sunday in Lent.

If it matters, we vest in purple instead of Lenten array.

I was wondering about this same thing with Lent coming up! What is the consensus -- or being Ecclesiantics, what is the base of the fight that will erupt over this? [Biased]
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John Holding

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If you veil, then it depends on which lectionary you're using. If one that separates Passion SUnday from Palm Sunday, and puts it on Lent V, then it makes sense to veil (empty) crosses then. If a lectionary that conflates the two and observes them on the same day, then presumably on that day -- there's no reason at all to veil anything on Lent V in that case.

I refer to veiling of empty crosses -- I have never seen the point, either liturgical or devotional, in veiling a cross with a crucified corpus. The custom began, I've been told, when the corpus was usually a Risen or Glorified Christ, and was intended to obscure the glorious body so that only the outline of the cross could be seen, and used as an appropriate aide to devotion in Passion-tide. The development of the crucified christ corpus kind of made this custom irrelevant, but that never stopped truly devout christians for whom the only thing that mattered was to do what their grandparents had "always" done, even it if no longer made sense.

John

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Evensong
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Seemingly stupid question alert.

Does a white stole with a five inch burgundy fringe count as a white stole?

The Archbishop wants a white stole.....

TIA

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When I was a nipper the veiling of crosses, etc, always happened on Shrove Tuesday.

Only concession was processional cross: ornate silver-gilt number was swapped for plain wood, which was then veiled from Passion Sunday.

Evensong White stole with 5 inch burgundy fringe - sounds like a remnant from a 1920s flapper dress [Ultra confused]

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Evensong
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Well the fringe per se is about 3 inches but its got burgundy velvet above that.

But it was given to me by a 85 yo retiring clerical so lord knows its vintage. [Big Grin]

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Adam.

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Sounds like a white stole to me!

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Anglican_Brat
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For episcopal ordinations, what is the difference between a consecration and an installation, and why is there two separate services?

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NatDogg
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For episcopal ordinations, what is the difference between a consecration and an installation, and why is there two separate services?

Consecration makes a priest a bishop - an order in holy orders. Installation installs the bishop in his or her cathedral (or office, I suppose). This is usually done with a formal "seating" in the cathedra or stall. A bishop who is already a bishop and gets another see or whatever is installed but not consecrated again.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I believe even the Community of the Resurrection at Mirfield tried the 'dressing for dinner' approach at one time. It didn't last.

Its Leeds priory, where i lived awhile (1970s), did that on weekdays because they had Morning prayer up to the end of the Benedictus before going up to the altar and starting the mass at the peace.

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georgiaboy
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Back to the cross-veiling: what color? and what weight of fabric?
I recall that the Dearmer use (for all of Lent?) was grey, and until recently the only other color I had seen was violet, unfortunately of the 'see through' weight -- we have a lot of those and they are all perfectly hideous.
However, I've recently noticed (from St Peter's in Rome and other hot spots) the use of passion-tide red. I've not checked it out anywhere, but is this now the recommended use?

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