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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Pancho
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Previous threads that touch on veiling of the cross during Lent:

Veiling during Lent
The puzzling colors of Holy Week

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Barefoot Friar

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Thanks for the links, Pancho.

I'm gathering (though it looks like there is considerable difference in practice) that those who use Lenten array tend to veil very early, whole those who use purple tend to veil late, if at all. We veiled late last year (well, it was the fifth Sunday), and I believe we shall do so again.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
When to veil the sanctuary crosses? Dearmer says to do so before the first Sunday in Lent. However, I believe RC practice (and modern Anglican?) is to veil on the fifth Sunday in Lent.

If it matters, we vest in purple instead of Lenten array.

Following Lamburn & Fortescue, we veil at the beginning of Passiontide--i.e. first Vespers of Lent V.

Veiling plain crosses only is a new one on me, but on the other hand there are as many customs as there are churches...

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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simwel

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With regard to veiling does anyone know of a suitable liturgy?
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L'organist
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The Dearmer use was unbleached linen - or as near as you could get: cream or pale grey hessian was not unheard of.

As for a rite or liturgy for veiling - no. The reredos, etc, were veiled up/covered over by a team of servers on the evening of Shrove Tuesday, after which they usually repaired to the vicarage for pancakes and a pint.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Anglican_Brat
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Why did modern liturgists remove the Feast of St Valentine's Day (February 14th) from the Calendar of Saints?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Why did modern liturgists remove the Feast of St Valentine's Day (February 14th) from the Calendar of Saints?

Wikipedia saith:
quote:
Nothing is reliably known of St. Valentine except his name and the fact that he died on February 14 on Via Flaminia in the north of Rome. It is uncertain whether St. Valentine is to be identified as one saint or two saints of the same name. Several differing martyrologies have been added to later hagiographies that are unreliable. For these reasons this liturgical commemoration was not kept in the Catholic calendar of saints for universal liturgical veneration as revised in 1969.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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The Catholic Encyclopedia has more to say about the three St. Valentines.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Canadian BCP: "Certain ancient memorials whose historical character is obscure have been retained, and are printed in brackets." There's a handful of RC outlets in the US in that dedication but as far as I can see, no Anglican or Episcopalian dedications to the saint. In my student days in Dublin, there were frequently jocular references to the bits of the saint housed at the Whitefriars Street Carmelite church, and nurses from the Adelaide Hospital (since moved from that neighbourhood) were said to go there to make petition for a handsome doctor (a possible urban legend or example of Irish humour, as the Adelaide had the character of a Protestant hospital).

An Oz Carmelite of my acquaintance (whom I believe had received his formation at the Blessed Barry Humphries Diocesan Seminary or may as well have) thought that as Valentinus was a common-enough name at the time of the Tiberian martyrdoms, that some Christian of that name was likely enough caught up in the persecutions that we should feel safe in revering him.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The Catholic Encyclopedia has more to say about the three St. Valentines.

From the same,
quote:
The custom of choosing and sending valentines has of late years fallen into comparative desuetude.
Not if you go round the local Sainsbury's it hasn't.

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Galilit
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Reading A.N. Wilson's novel The Vicar of Sorrows. He describes his main character as "still doing everything" he had learnt twenty years before at Mirfield. He gives cute examples (maniple among them) and then "After the consecration he still held thumb and forefinger together until all the sacred elements had been consumed"
What does this mean?

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venbede
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I know a retired priest who still does it. Once the host is consecrated, the priest who has touched It, keeps his fingers (or her fingers theoretically) together to avoid any crumbs from the consecrated host dropping down somewhere.

Or something well meaning like that.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
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Barefoot Friar

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Do Rite I services in TEC (traditional language) use the NRSV or a tradional-language translation, such as RSV, KJV, etc.? What about traditional language services elsewhere?

[ 22. February 2014, 14:48: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Do Rite I services in TEC (traditional language) use the NRSV or a tradional-language translation, such as RSV, KJV, etc.? What about traditional language services elsewhere?

Ours use the NRSV (same as our Rite II services). St. Thomas', Fifth Avenue, in NYC uses KJV with Rite I, and I assume they use NRSV or RSV with Rite II.
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Forthview
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The thumb and forefinger kept together after the consecration until the ablutions after Communion was in the rubrics of the Roman rite until after Vatican 2.
Any particles of the Sacred Host which might have stuck to the said thumb or forefinger would be kept there until the said thumb and forefinger were washed at the ablutions after Communion.

I imagine that Anglican priests for whom it was important to follow the rubrics of the Roman Missal would do the same.

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leo
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Every priest i have ever known did that - some still do.

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Galilit
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Thank you Venbede and Forthview - I shall now be able to retire at my usual hour with no unsolved mysteries disturbing me.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Qoheleth.

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Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

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venbede
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That is odd, isn't it? I'd expect the departed mentioned at that point. I'd be surprised if it was Roman material. Just someone getting the wrong end of the stick.

I'd be interested if it was authorised by anyone.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Quam Dilecta
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In my TEC parish, the RSV is used for readings at all services because its language retains enough echos of the KJV to fit into traditional-language liturgies. Our rector has elected not to use the NRSV, on the grounds that it has crossed the boundary between translation and paraphrase.

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Vulpior

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quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

Sometimes I'd like to offer up our Archbishop and Bishop as part of the sacrifice [Devil]

I'll get me biretta.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

It would appear to come from this order for a Celtic-inspired Eucharist, by an Episcopal Church publisher.
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The thumb and forefinger kept together after the consecration until the ablutions after Communion was in the rubrics of the Roman rite until after Vatican 2.
Any particles of the Sacred Host which might have stuck to the said thumb or forefinger would be kept there until the said thumb and forefinger were washed at the ablutions after Communion.

I imagine that Anglican priests for whom it was important to follow the rubrics of the Roman Missal would do the same.

I do this, too. It's more a reflection of my eucharistic piety than of any over-scrupulousness about the rubrics of the Roman Missal, though.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Forthview
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Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.
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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.

Or, as we like to call it: the Roman Rite. The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter, as is the GIRM, (all at a quick glance) because it is a matter of liturgical sense and Eucharistic piety & propriety, more a matter from liturgical manuals than rubrics. It's not some weird reactionary pre-VII irrelevance, if that's what you were implying.

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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter,

I've got an old edition of the English Missal (pre-1950 at a guess), which AFAIK translated accurately the text of rubrics of the RM. It says (after the words of institution): '[he] does not disjoin his forefingers and thumbs, except to handle the Host, till after the ablutions.'

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter,

I've got an old edition of the English Missal (pre-1950 at a guess), which AFAIK translated accurately the text of rubrics of the RM. It says (after the words of institution): '[he] does not disjoin his forefingers and thumbs, except to handle the Host, till after the ablutions.'
Well spotted, mea culpa: "nec amplius pollices et indices disjungit, nisi quando Hostia tractanda est, usque ad ablutionem digitorum."

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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.

Oh, I see what you mean. Very true.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Forthview
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Indeed my Latin Roman Missal of 1948 (pre Vatican 2 and pre reforms of Pius XII) has indeed after the consecration of the Host:
'nec amplius pollices et indices disjungit,nisi quando Hostia tractanda est,usque ad ablutionem digitorum.' This is in red in the Missal, so one could say that it is a rubric.

A rough and ready translation might be :
thumbs and forefingers should not be disjoined any more,except when handling the Host until the ablution of the fingers.
In no way did I wish to suggest that this was a weird action,but simply to suggest that it was a rubric in the Roman Missal - a rubric which is no longer in the Missal,but an act of personal piety still carried out by some priests.

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Enoch
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this question? With Lent about to start, and the Orthodox being much more knowledgeable about fasting than us slack westerners (particularly us slack Protestants), a weird fasting question.

Presumably in a really Orthodox country like Greece, the bakers take account of this. However in predominantly non-Orthodox or secular countries such as parts of the former USSR, what do Orthodox people do about bread on fast days and in fasting seasons? In the UK even home-made bread normally includes a dash of lard, butter or oil (preferably olive) to get the dough to have the right texture. As for bakers' bread that can contain all sorts of additives intended to improve it or make it keep better. I suspect the position is much the same in the US and most of western Europe.

Since both animal fat and olive oil are feasting foods, do Orthodox people living in non-Orthodox societies use special bakers, or is this regarded as over-scrupulosity?


I seem to remember from a similar thread either last year or the year before, that some Orthodox  get round the restrictions the position on olive oil imposes on cooking generally by arguing that oil made from other ingredients such as peanuts or rapeseed doesn't count. Other Orthodox regard this as cheating and generally bad show. Am I right?

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BulldogSacristan
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Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

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BulldogSacristan
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Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

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sebby
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I presume the diurnal contains only the day offices. The Anglican breviary contains the full office of the western church in BCP language.

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sebhyatt

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

The Monastic Diurnal lacks Matins (which is separately published), and that accounts for much of the size difference. Another big difference is the distribution of psalms: the MD uses the distribution based on the Rule of St. Benedict, while the AB uses the 1911 Roman Breviary distribution. And there's no Nunc dimittis at Compline in the MD. The other significant differences are in Matins (again, this doesn't show up in the MD), where the monastic office has six psalms per nocturn rather than three. I'm sure there are numerous differences in particular antiphon texts and maybe Matins lessons as well.

As to "better" or "worse," I'd say that's an individual matter. Personally, although I sometimes use each of these books, I prefer for regular prayer to use the breviary of the community to which I belong, which is based on the BCP and also connects with the eucharistic lectionary I experience in church.

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What happens in terms of the liturgical calendar when a church is dedicated to a saint who is no longer commemorated in the calendar and/or is no longer considered a saint, eg St Christopher? Do they just not have a Patronal Festival?

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Forthview
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It's not that St Christopher is no longer considered a saint.It's simply that his feast day is no longer on the universal calendar of the Catholic church.The feast may be celebrated in areas or churches particularly connected with the saint.
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Enoch
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IMHO there is a more fundamental problem with dedications to St Christopher. The reason why he was downgraded is because there is considerable doubt whether he ever existed, whether the his story, nice and universally known though it may be, is no more than a pious legend. If so, what is the status or value of being dedicated to a saint who isn't there?

Meanwhile, is anyone able to answer my fasting question?

[ 14. March 2014, 20:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Pomona
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I would be interested to hear from anyone who attends/has attended a church dedicated to St Christopher or another saint without a feast day, eg St Valentine, and what they do for a Patronal Festival if they have one.

Enoch, most shop-bought bread is free of oil or butter. I've never made a standard loaf that contains it either. Particular continental bread like focaccia or brioche, yes, but not a regular white loaf.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Roselyn
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# 17859

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I wouldn't worry about non existent ? saints. I am sure that there are plenty of saints in heaven unrecognized by people on earth, they probably have rosters where they fill in for named but non existent saints or even some of Our Lady's spare titles when the workload gets too heavy. Being humble they would welcome this opportunity.
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Offeiriad

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# 14031

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would be interested to hear from anyone who attends/has attended a church dedicated to St Christopher or another saint without a feast day, eg St Valentine, and what they do for a Patronal Festival if they have one.

When serving in Cornwall I had one church with a patron so obscure that there wasn't even certainty over gender, let alone anything else.

In the absence of a known Feast Day, some predecessor had fastened this commemoration to the first Sunday in September. Thus every year I was expected to preach a rousing sermon on a saint, even the spelling of whose name was open to debate. This was a serious homeletical challenge, but I got some measure of revenge by making the congregation find suitable hymns for the service.

The trouble is, hymns can be repeated annually, but sermons cannot! A long-remembered predecessor apparently used to preach twice each Sunday using the same sermon, only doing so in the evening with his teeth out. I was better equipped in the dental department, so I was deprived of this novel means of recycling a good sermon.

Does that help? I suspect not.

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Clavus
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# 9427

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There is a legend that, the day after the revised Calendar was published, religious supply shops hurriedly put up sale notices:
quote:
Mr Christopher Medals - Half Price!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
... Thus every year I was expected to preach a rousing sermon on a saint, even the spelling of whose name was open to debate. This was a serious homeletical challenge, but I got some measure of revenge by making the congregation find suitable hymns for the service. ...

That can even apply to known saints, viz the following from the hymn in an old A&M for St Bartholemew's Day - and before the hosts get in a fizz about copyright, the writer of this hymn died in 1893.

"In the roll of Thine Apostles
One there stands, Batholemew,
He for whom today we offer,
Year by year our praises due;
How he toiled for thee and suffer'd
None on earth can now record;
All his saintly life is hidden
In the knowledge of the Lord."

At least if you're CofE rather than non-Conformist, I suppose you can preach on "and some there be that have no memorial".

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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L'organist
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# 17338

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posted by Oferyas
quote:
A long-remembered predecessor apparently used to preach twice each Sunday using the same sermon, only doing so in the evening with his teeth out.
[Killing me] [Killing me]
But I shall be passing this on to the vicaress of my home parish (not where I play) who uses the same sermon THREE times on a Sunday - even though it doesn't fit the readings for the evening service.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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seasick

...over the edge
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Can you please refrain from using forms such as "vicaress"? It is probably a while since we have had to repeat that request so I will assume you were unaware of our convention against feminised versions of ecclesiastical titles. Our past experience demonstrates their potential to generate more heat than light. The term is vicar: whatever your views on the Dead Horse, courtesy requires using the normal title for the office to which a person has been appointed.

seasick, Eccles host

[ 15. March 2014, 12:58: Message edited by: seasick ]

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Enoch's question - I don't know the answer, but I do know that in this country Greek and Turkish bread, which I buy a lot of (especially Turkish - the main difference between Greek and Turkish food is the spelling of the names), often claims to be made with no added ingredients.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Ceremoniar
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# 13596

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Jade, it would appear that your frame of reference regarding saints is a little off. Please allow me to clarify. Others have already pointed out the mistaken notion that St. Christopher was decanonized, but there is even more to the picture.

As the Church's kalendar gets overly full, every few centuries a pruning is needed, to make room for other saints, and to prevent the kalendar from becoming, as it were, top-heavy, and thus interfering with the proper of seasons. This can only be accomplished by removing saints from the universal kalendar. When this happens, saints who are removed generally remain in the local kalendars of the countries and dioceses from which they hailed, or where they toiled in the Lord's vineyards, or have other connections. Since the advent of the formal canonization process in the 10th century, that makes the business of adding and removing saints fairly routine, and even somewhat businesslike. Prior to that, canonization was more of a localized affair, and placement in the universal kalendar was a matter of when the popular veneration of a particular saint reached Rome and was recognized by the Holy Father's inserting the feast day into the Roman (and therefore universal) kalendar.

One of the criteria of the kalendar reforms announced in 1969 and begun with the kalendar of 1970 was historical evidence. Because the universal kalendar had become so full since the 16th century, the last time that it had been seriously pruned, one of the criteria used to decide which feast days would be removed was the historical evidence for the accounts of each saint's life. Now, I do not deny that the ecumenical climate of the time may have played a factor in this aspect of the reform, but it is logical that sooner or later, kalendar reforms were likely to delete some of the earliest saints, about whom we know relatively little. It would be like the renaming of streets whose namesakes are somewhat obscure to us now, or public statues and other memorials that fall into disrepair, and are eventually quietly removed and replaced by later honorees, because we have better records as to who they are and exactly what they did to earn recognition. Such an act does not imply that the former honoree did not exist or was not accomplished; it simply means that our records in that regard are spotty, and a desire to honor someone else whose record is clear and closer to our historical understanding, is then undertaken. For Americans, an example would be the gradual fading of Mark Twain in the public consciousness. Everyone still knows the name and the fact that he is a great American literary giant, but fewer people actually read, in school or elsewhere, anything that he wrote, including Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer. The same goes for the folk songs of Stephen Foster, and so on. None of this denies the role that they played in the development of American culture; it is just that their contributions seem more distant because of so many later contributors. Yet we all still know the Founding Fathers, Paul Revere, the Boston Tea Party, etc., even though these were even earlier.

Unfortunately, several of the saints who were removed from the universal kalendar had a very popular and pious following, viz., Sts. Christopher, Rita, Philomena and a couple of others. In this regard, the Holy See probably underestimated the impact on popular piety and devotion such deletions would have, as well as the likelihood that the secular media would misreport the event as a "decanonization," and that even Catholics would accept that as their understanding, television having become so dominant in everyone's lives by that point. Even the fact that the Holy See had repeatedly stated that this in no way impacted invocations of these saints, the celebration of their patronal feasts, the observance of devotions to them, or institutions named for them, did little to prevent the misperception.

In St. Christopher's case, an added burden was the fact that his feast was 25 July, which was already the feast of St. James the Apostle. Prior to the reform, the best that St. Christopher had ever managed liturgically, other than in churches named for him, was a commemoration on 25 July, i.e., a second collect, secret and postcommunion for him. With the elimination of commemorations in the 1970 missal, no one ever got a second collect, and St. Christopher was out, except in churches named for him--and on a practical note, many of those had really never observed his feast as a patronal festival, anyway, so no one really started doing so at the point, either. Whenever I visit my sister in another state, I always attend Mass at St. Christopher's church on the next corner. His name is alive and well.

St. Christopher and the other early removed saints all existed; it's just that the actual events of their saintly lives have been obscured by later pious legends, to the point where separating fact from fiction becomes difficult. But the fact that they were popularly acclaimed and ecclesiastically recognized very early on is enough to justify any continued devotion to them, even if such still depicts their lives with some of the legendary elements. This will never be an issue with saints from the early middle ages on, and especially later saints, because of methods of recordkeeping and the formal requirements of the canonization process. But devotion and patronal feasts can certainly still be the order of the day for these others.

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Forthview
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# 12376

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Today,15th March, I attended Mass,quite by chance, in a church served by priests from the Redemptorist order.I was surprised to see white vestments and learned it was the Feast of Klemens Maria Hofbauer.Had I gone to another church it would have been Saturday of the First week in Lent. For Redemptorist parishes it was the feast day because K.F.Hofbauer belonged to this order.
On the other hand because he is considered as a second patron saint of Vienna,all the churches in Vienna would celebrate 15 March as Feast of St Clement Mary Hofbauer,a well attested saint,but not on the universal calendar.

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Graven Image
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I was at an Episcopal Church USA where they did Morning Prayer instead of Holy Communion as the priest was out of town. They did a Gospel Procession. Is this usual for MP? I thought when doing MP you simply read a third lesson from a Gospel.
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L'organist
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# 17338

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Re: gender specific title

Sorry, seasick

But the PP refers to themselves thus ... (yes, I was fairly mind-blown too)

[ 16. March 2014, 03:14: Message edited by: L'organist ]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I was at an Episcopal Church USA where they did Morning Prayer instead of Holy Communion as the priest was out of town. They did a Gospel Procession. Is this usual for MP? I thought when doing MP you simply read a third lesson from a Gospel.

Obviously, I can't speak for the ECUSA. In the CofE at Morning Prayer, there are two readings, one from the Old Testament and one from the New. The New Testament one may or may not be from a gospel, but if it is, it's still a New Testament reading and not a 'Gospel' in the Eucharistic sense.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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