homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Ecclesiantics   » Sundry liturgical questions (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  34  35  36 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

 - Posted      Profile for Pancho   Author's homepage   Email Pancho   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Previous threads that touch on veiling of the cross during Lent:

Veiling during Lent
The puzzling colors of Holy Week

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1980 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

 - Posted      Profile for Barefoot Friar   Email Barefoot Friar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for the links, Pancho.

I'm gathering (though it looks like there is considerable difference in practice) that those who use Lenten array tend to veil very early, whole those who use purple tend to veil late, if at all. We veiled late last year (well, it was the fifth Sunday), and I believe we shall do so again.

--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
When to veil the sanctuary crosses? Dearmer says to do so before the first Sunday in Lent. However, I believe RC practice (and modern Anglican?) is to veil on the fifth Sunday in Lent.

If it matters, we vest in purple instead of Lenten array.

Following Lamburn & Fortescue, we veil at the beginning of Passiontide--i.e. first Vespers of Lent V.

Veiling plain crosses only is a new one on me, but on the other hand there are as many customs as there are churches...

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
simwel

praying fool
# 12214

 - Posted      Profile for simwel   Email simwel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
With regard to veiling does anyone know of a suitable liturgy?
Posts: 74 | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Dearmer use was unbleached linen - or as near as you could get: cream or pale grey hessian was not unheard of.

As for a rite or liturgy for veiling - no. The reredos, etc, were veiled up/covered over by a team of servers on the evening of Shrove Tuesday, after which they usually repaired to the vicarage for pancakes and a pint.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4603 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why did modern liturgists remove the Feast of St Valentine's Day (February 14th) from the Calendar of Saints?

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4228 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278

 - Posted      Profile for Oblatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Why did modern liturgists remove the Feast of St Valentine's Day (February 14th) from the Calendar of Saints?

Wikipedia saith:
quote:
Nothing is reliably known of St. Valentine except his name and the fact that he died on February 14 on Via Flaminia in the north of Rome. It is uncertain whether St. Valentine is to be identified as one saint or two saints of the same name. Several differing martyrologies have been added to later hagiographies that are unreliable. For these reasons this liturgical commemoration was not kept in the Catholic calendar of saints for universal liturgical veneration as revised in 1969.

Posts: 3814 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Catholic Encyclopedia has more to say about the three St. Valentines.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10220 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Canadian BCP: "Certain ancient memorials whose historical character is obscure have been retained, and are printed in brackets." There's a handful of RC outlets in the US in that dedication but as far as I can see, no Anglican or Episcopalian dedications to the saint. In my student days in Dublin, there were frequently jocular references to the bits of the saint housed at the Whitefriars Street Carmelite church, and nurses from the Adelaide Hospital (since moved from that neighbourhood) were said to go there to make petition for a handsome doctor (a possible urban legend or example of Irish humour, as the Adelaide had the character of a Protestant hospital).

An Oz Carmelite of my acquaintance (whom I believe had received his formation at the Blessed Barry Humphries Diocesan Seminary or may as well have) thought that as Valentinus was a common-enough name at the time of the Tiberian martyrdoms, that some Christian of that name was likely enough caught up in the persecutions that we should feel safe in revering him.

Posts: 6094 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The Catholic Encyclopedia has more to say about the three St. Valentines.

From the same,
quote:
The custom of choosing and sending valentines has of late years fallen into comparative desuetude.
Not if you go round the local Sainsbury's it hasn't.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7234 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

 - Posted      Profile for Galilit   Email Galilit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Reading A.N. Wilson's novel The Vicar of Sorrows. He describes his main character as "still doing everything" he had learnt twenty years before at Mirfield. He gives cute examples (maniple among them) and then "After the consecration he still held thumb and forefinger together until all the sacred elements had been consumed"
What does this mean?

--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

Posts: 592 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know a retired priest who still does it. Once the host is consecrated, the priest who has touched It, keeps his fingers (or her fingers theoretically) together to avoid any crumbs from the consecrated host dropping down somewhere.

Or something well meaning like that.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3176 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

 - Posted      Profile for Barefoot Friar   Email Barefoot Friar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Do Rite I services in TEC (traditional language) use the NRSV or a tradional-language translation, such as RSV, KJV, etc.? What about traditional language services elsewhere?

[ 22. February 2014, 14:48: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278

 - Posted      Profile for Oblatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Do Rite I services in TEC (traditional language) use the NRSV or a tradional-language translation, such as RSV, KJV, etc.? What about traditional language services elsewhere?

Ours use the NRSV (same as our Rite II services). St. Thomas', Fifth Avenue, in NYC uses KJV with Rite I, and I assume they use NRSV or RSV with Rite II.
Posts: 3814 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The thumb and forefinger kept together after the consecration until the ablutions after Communion was in the rubrics of the Roman rite until after Vatican 2.
Any particles of the Sacred Host which might have stuck to the said thumb or forefinger would be kept there until the said thumb and forefinger were washed at the ablutions after Communion.

I imagine that Anglican priests for whom it was important to follow the rubrics of the Roman Missal would do the same.

Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Every priest i have ever known did that - some still do.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23019 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

 - Posted      Profile for Galilit   Email Galilit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you Venbede and Forthview - I shall now be able to retire at my usual hour with no unsolved mysteries disturbing me.

--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

Posts: 592 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged
Qoheleth.

Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265

 - Posted      Profile for Qoheleth.   Email Qoheleth.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.

Posts: 2506 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is odd, isn't it? I'd expect the departed mentioned at that point. I'd be surprised if it was Roman material. Just someone getting the wrong end of the stick.

I'd be interested if it was authorised by anyone.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3176 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541

 - Posted      Profile for Quam Dilecta   Email Quam Dilecta       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In my TEC parish, the RSV is used for readings at all services because its language retains enough echos of the KJV to fit into traditional-language liturgies. Our rector has elected not to use the NRSV, on the grounds that it has crossed the boundary between translation and paraphrase.

--------------------
Blessd are they that dwell in thy house

Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Vulpior

Foxier than Thou
# 12744

 - Posted      Profile for Vulpior   Author's homepage   Email Vulpior   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

Sometimes I'd like to offer up our Archbishop and Bishop as part of the sacrifice [Devil]

I'll get me biretta.

--------------------
I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad

Posts: 944 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596

 - Posted      Profile for Knopwood   Email Knopwood   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Recently I encountered a liturgy which included
quote:
Rejoicing in the Holy Spirit,
your whole Church offers you thanks and praise,
together with N, our Archbishop, N, our Bishop ....,
and all whose lives bring hope to this world.

This was at an Anglican altar, but bears the hallmarks of a Roman interpolation. No problem with that; however, I'm not sure what it means. I'm used to praying for the Bp, but this seems to be saying something different surely, since all parties are the subjects of the verb 'offer', and it is assumed that the Bp is amongst those whose lives bring hope into the world.

What thinkest the denizens?

It would appear to come from this order for a Celtic-inspired Eucharist, by an Episcopal Church publisher.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The thumb and forefinger kept together after the consecration until the ablutions after Communion was in the rubrics of the Roman rite until after Vatican 2.
Any particles of the Sacred Host which might have stuck to the said thumb or forefinger would be kept there until the said thumb and forefinger were washed at the ablutions after Communion.

I imagine that Anglican priests for whom it was important to follow the rubrics of the Roman Missal would do the same.

I do this, too. It's more a reflection of my eucharistic piety than of any over-scrupulousness about the rubrics of the Roman Missal, though.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.
Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688

 - Posted      Profile for Vade Mecum     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.

Or, as we like to call it: the Roman Rite. The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter, as is the GIRM, (all at a quick glance) because it is a matter of liturgical sense and Eucharistic piety & propriety, more a matter from liturgical manuals than rubrics. It's not some weird reactionary pre-VII irrelevance, if that's what you were implying.

--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter,

I've got an old edition of the English Missal (pre-1950 at a guess), which AFAIK translated accurately the text of rubrics of the RM. It says (after the words of institution): '[he] does not disjoin his forefingers and thumbs, except to handle the Host, till after the ablutions.'

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12891 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688

 - Posted      Profile for Vade Mecum     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
The rubrics of the missals I possess, both Novus and Vetus Ordo, are silent on the matter,

I've got an old edition of the English Missal (pre-1950 at a guess), which AFAIK translated accurately the text of rubrics of the RM. It says (after the words of institution): '[he] does not disjoin his forefingers and thumbs, except to handle the Host, till after the ablutions.'
Well spotted, mea culpa: "nec amplius pollices et indices disjungit, nisi quando Hostia tractanda est, usque ad ablutionem digitorum."

--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Whilst I am more than happy to accept that this action is a reflection of your personal Eucharistic piety I doubt that you would have thought of this particular act of eucharistic piety,had not someone else further up the chain read carefully the rubrics of the Roman rite pre Vatican 2.

Oh, I see what you mean. Very true.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed my Latin Roman Missal of 1948 (pre Vatican 2 and pre reforms of Pius XII) has indeed after the consecration of the Host:
'nec amplius pollices et indices disjungit,nisi quando Hostia tractanda est,usque ad ablutionem digitorum.' This is in red in the Missal, so one could say that it is a rubric.

A rough and ready translation might be :
thumbs and forefingers should not be disjoined any more,except when handling the Host until the ablution of the fingers.
In no way did I wish to suggest that this was a weird action,but simply to suggest that it was a rubric in the Roman Missal - a rubric which is no longer in the Missal,but an act of personal piety still carried out by some priests.

Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not sure if this is the right thread for this question? With Lent about to start, and the Orthodox being much more knowledgeable about fasting than us slack westerners (particularly us slack Protestants), a weird fasting question.

Presumably in a really Orthodox country like Greece, the bakers take account of this. However in predominantly non-Orthodox or secular countries such as parts of the former USSR, what do Orthodox people do about bread on fast days and in fasting seasons? In the UK even home-made bread normally includes a dash of lard, butter or oil (preferably olive) to get the dough to have the right texture. As for bakers' bread that can contain all sorts of additives intended to improve it or make it keep better. I suspect the position is much the same in the US and most of western Europe.

Since both animal fat and olive oil are feasting foods, do Orthodox people living in non-Orthodox societies use special bakers, or is this regarded as over-scrupulosity?


I seem to remember from a similar thread either last year or the year before, that some Orthodox  get round the restrictions the position on olive oil imposes on cooking generally by arguing that oil made from other ingredients such as peanuts or rapeseed doesn't count. Other Orthodox regard this as cheating and generally bad show. Am I right?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7234 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239

 - Posted      Profile for BulldogSacristan   Email BulldogSacristan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239

 - Posted      Profile for BulldogSacristan   Email BulldogSacristan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147

 - Posted      Profile for sebby   Email sebby   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I presume the diurnal contains only the day offices. The Anglican breviary contains the full office of the western church in BCP language.

--------------------
sebhyatt

Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278

 - Posted      Profile for Oblatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
Simple question that I haven't been able to readily find the answer to online: What, exactly,is the difference between the Monastic Diurnal and the Anglican Breviary? They both seem to be translations of the traditional Latin daily office into hieratic English, and they both seem to give Book of Common Prayer-compatible directions and rubrics.

And if these two books are largely the same sort of thing, is one appreciably better than the other?

The Monastic Diurnal lacks Matins (which is separately published), and that accounts for much of the size difference. Another big difference is the distribution of psalms: the MD uses the distribution based on the Rule of St. Benedict, while the AB uses the 1911 Roman Breviary distribution. And there's no Nunc dimittis at Compline in the MD. The other significant differences are in Matins (again, this doesn't show up in the MD), where the monastic office has six psalms per nocturn rather than three. I'm sure there are numerous differences in particular antiphon texts and maybe Matins lessons as well.

As to "better" or "worse," I'd say that's an individual matter. Personally, although I sometimes use each of these books, I prefer for regular prayer to use the breviary of the community to which I belong, which is based on the BCP and also connects with the eucharistic lectionary I experience in church.

Posts: 3814 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What happens in terms of the liturgical calendar when a church is dedicated to a saint who is no longer commemorated in the calendar and/or is no longer considered a saint, eg St Christopher? Do they just not have a Patronal Festival?

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5302 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's not that St Christopher is no longer considered a saint.It's simply that his feast day is no longer on the universal calendar of the Catholic church.The feast may be celebrated in areas or churches particularly connected with the saint.
Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
IMHO there is a more fundamental problem with dedications to St Christopher. The reason why he was downgraded is because there is considerable doubt whether he ever existed, whether the his story, nice and universally known though it may be, is no more than a pious legend. If so, what is the status or value of being dedicated to a saint who isn't there?

Meanwhile, is anyone able to answer my fasting question?

[ 14. March 2014, 20:12: Message edited by: Enoch ]

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7234 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would be interested to hear from anyone who attends/has attended a church dedicated to St Christopher or another saint without a feast day, eg St Valentine, and what they do for a Patronal Festival if they have one.

Enoch, most shop-bought bread is free of oil or butter. I've never made a standard loaf that contains it either. Particular continental bread like focaccia or brioche, yes, but not a regular white loaf.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5302 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859

 - Posted      Profile for Roselyn     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wouldn't worry about non existent ? saints. I am sure that there are plenty of saints in heaven unrecognized by people on earth, they probably have rosters where they fill in for named but non existent saints or even some of Our Lady's spare titles when the workload gets too heavy. Being humble they would welcome this opportunity.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Offeiriad

Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031

 - Posted      Profile for Offeiriad   Email Offeiriad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would be interested to hear from anyone who attends/has attended a church dedicated to St Christopher or another saint without a feast day, eg St Valentine, and what they do for a Patronal Festival if they have one.

When serving in Cornwall I had one church with a patron so obscure that there wasn't even certainty over gender, let alone anything else.

In the absence of a known Feast Day, some predecessor had fastened this commemoration to the first Sunday in September. Thus every year I was expected to preach a rousing sermon on a saint, even the spelling of whose name was open to debate. This was a serious homeletical challenge, but I got some measure of revenge by making the congregation find suitable hymns for the service.

The trouble is, hymns can be repeated annually, but sermons cannot! A long-remembered predecessor apparently used to preach twice each Sunday using the same sermon, only doing so in the evening with his teeth out. I was better equipped in the dental department, so I was deprived of this novel means of recycling a good sermon.

Does that help? I suspect not.

Posts: 1423 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427

 - Posted      Profile for Clavus   Email Clavus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is a legend that, the day after the revised Calendar was published, religious supply shops hurriedly put up sale notices:
quote:
Mr Christopher Medals - Half Price!

Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
... Thus every year I was expected to preach a rousing sermon on a saint, even the spelling of whose name was open to debate. This was a serious homeletical challenge, but I got some measure of revenge by making the congregation find suitable hymns for the service. ...

That can even apply to known saints, viz the following from the hymn in an old A&M for St Bartholemew's Day - and before the hosts get in a fizz about copyright, the writer of this hymn died in 1893.

"In the roll of Thine Apostles
One there stands, Batholemew,
He for whom today we offer,
Year by year our praises due;
How he toiled for thee and suffer'd
None on earth can now record;
All his saintly life is hidden
In the knowledge of the Lord."

At least if you're CofE rather than non-Conformist, I suppose you can preach on "and some there be that have no memorial".

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7234 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
posted by Oferyas
quote:
A long-remembered predecessor apparently used to preach twice each Sunday using the same sermon, only doing so in the evening with his teeth out.
[Killing me] [Killing me]
But I shall be passing this on to the vicaress of my home parish (not where I play) who uses the same sermon THREE times on a Sunday - even though it doesn't fit the readings for the evening service.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4603 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
seasick

...over the edge
# 48

 - Posted      Profile for seasick   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Can you please refrain from using forms such as "vicaress"? It is probably a while since we have had to repeat that request so I will assume you were unaware of our convention against feminised versions of ecclesiastical titles. Our past experience demonstrates their potential to generate more heat than light. The term is vicar: whatever your views on the Dead Horse, courtesy requires using the normal title for the office to which a person has been appointed.

seasick, Eccles host

[ 15. March 2014, 12:58: Message edited by: seasick ]

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Enoch's question - I don't know the answer, but I do know that in this country Greek and Turkish bread, which I buy a lot of (especially Turkish - the main difference between Greek and Turkish food is the spelling of the names), often claims to be made with no added ingredients.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596

 - Posted      Profile for Ceremoniar   Email Ceremoniar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jade, it would appear that your frame of reference regarding saints is a little off. Please allow me to clarify. Others have already pointed out the mistaken notion that St. Christopher was decanonized, but there is even more to the picture.

As the Church's kalendar gets overly full, every few centuries a pruning is needed, to make room for other saints, and to prevent the kalendar from becoming, as it were, top-heavy, and thus interfering with the proper of seasons. This can only be accomplished by removing saints from the universal kalendar. When this happens, saints who are removed generally remain in the local kalendars of the countries and dioceses from which they hailed, or where they toiled in the Lord's vineyards, or have other connections. Since the advent of the formal canonization process in the 10th century, that makes the business of adding and removing saints fairly routine, and even somewhat businesslike. Prior to that, canonization was more of a localized affair, and placement in the universal kalendar was a matter of when the popular veneration of a particular saint reached Rome and was recognized by the Holy Father's inserting the feast day into the Roman (and therefore universal) kalendar.

One of the criteria of the kalendar reforms announced in 1969 and begun with the kalendar of 1970 was historical evidence. Because the universal kalendar had become so full since the 16th century, the last time that it had been seriously pruned, one of the criteria used to decide which feast days would be removed was the historical evidence for the accounts of each saint's life. Now, I do not deny that the ecumenical climate of the time may have played a factor in this aspect of the reform, but it is logical that sooner or later, kalendar reforms were likely to delete some of the earliest saints, about whom we know relatively little. It would be like the renaming of streets whose namesakes are somewhat obscure to us now, or public statues and other memorials that fall into disrepair, and are eventually quietly removed and replaced by later honorees, because we have better records as to who they are and exactly what they did to earn recognition. Such an act does not imply that the former honoree did not exist or was not accomplished; it simply means that our records in that regard are spotty, and a desire to honor someone else whose record is clear and closer to our historical understanding, is then undertaken. For Americans, an example would be the gradual fading of Mark Twain in the public consciousness. Everyone still knows the name and the fact that he is a great American literary giant, but fewer people actually read, in school or elsewhere, anything that he wrote, including Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer. The same goes for the folk songs of Stephen Foster, and so on. None of this denies the role that they played in the development of American culture; it is just that their contributions seem more distant because of so many later contributors. Yet we all still know the Founding Fathers, Paul Revere, the Boston Tea Party, etc., even though these were even earlier.

Unfortunately, several of the saints who were removed from the universal kalendar had a very popular and pious following, viz., Sts. Christopher, Rita, Philomena and a couple of others. In this regard, the Holy See probably underestimated the impact on popular piety and devotion such deletions would have, as well as the likelihood that the secular media would misreport the event as a "decanonization," and that even Catholics would accept that as their understanding, television having become so dominant in everyone's lives by that point. Even the fact that the Holy See had repeatedly stated that this in no way impacted invocations of these saints, the celebration of their patronal feasts, the observance of devotions to them, or institutions named for them, did little to prevent the misperception.

In St. Christopher's case, an added burden was the fact that his feast was 25 July, which was already the feast of St. James the Apostle. Prior to the reform, the best that St. Christopher had ever managed liturgically, other than in churches named for him, was a commemoration on 25 July, i.e., a second collect, secret and postcommunion for him. With the elimination of commemorations in the 1970 missal, no one ever got a second collect, and St. Christopher was out, except in churches named for him--and on a practical note, many of those had really never observed his feast as a patronal festival, anyway, so no one really started doing so at the point, either. Whenever I visit my sister in another state, I always attend Mass at St. Christopher's church on the next corner. His name is alive and well.

St. Christopher and the other early removed saints all existed; it's just that the actual events of their saintly lives have been obscured by later pious legends, to the point where separating fact from fiction becomes difficult. But the fact that they were popularly acclaimed and ecclesiastically recognized very early on is enough to justify any continued devotion to them, even if such still depicts their lives with some of the legendary elements. This will never be an issue with saints from the early middle ages on, and especially later saints, because of methods of recordkeeping and the formal requirements of the canonization process. But devotion and patronal feasts can certainly still be the order of the day for these others.

Posts: 1237 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Today,15th March, I attended Mass,quite by chance, in a church served by priests from the Redemptorist order.I was surprised to see white vestments and learned it was the Feast of Klemens Maria Hofbauer.Had I gone to another church it would have been Saturday of the First week in Lent. For Redemptorist parishes it was the feast day because K.F.Hofbauer belonged to this order.
On the other hand because he is considered as a second patron saint of Vienna,all the churches in Vienna would celebrate 15 March as Feast of St Clement Mary Hofbauer,a well attested saint,but not on the universal calendar.

Posts: 3396 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755

 - Posted      Profile for Graven Image   Email Graven Image   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I was at an Episcopal Church USA where they did Morning Prayer instead of Holy Communion as the priest was out of town. They did a Gospel Procession. Is this usual for MP? I thought when doing MP you simply read a third lesson from a Gospel.
Posts: 2588 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re: gender specific title

Sorry, seasick

But the PP refers to themselves thus ... (yes, I was fairly mind-blown too)

[ 16. March 2014, 03:14: Message edited by: L'organist ]

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4603 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I was at an Episcopal Church USA where they did Morning Prayer instead of Holy Communion as the priest was out of town. They did a Gospel Procession. Is this usual for MP? I thought when doing MP you simply read a third lesson from a Gospel.

Obviously, I can't speak for the ECUSA. In the CofE at Morning Prayer, there are two readings, one from the Old Testament and one from the New. The New Testament one may or may not be from a gospel, but if it is, it's still a New Testament reading and not a 'Gospel' in the Eucharistic sense.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7234 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  34  35  36 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools