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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
On the other hand, unhealthy meals can take ages.
I have just spent 20 minutes boning a duck. It is now spread out like a coverlet in the oven, thereby generating the greatest amount of crispy roast duck skin. Presently I will go an do tricky things with tins of scalding fat, to retrieve the meat juices and then proceed to do further things with orange juice, rowan jelly and kumquats.
The resultant meal will be fresh & home-cooked and pretty damn fattening, particularly when you add in the wine and the strawberries-and-cream dessert.
There is such a thing as liking food - the taste and the texture and the sheer sensuality of it all. My senses are where I live - colour and sound and smell and touch.
I have had to live, as most of do, an unsensual or countersensual life - working in ugly, arid offices, travelling in discomfort, making do with food that tastes of little but additives.
Am I unfit/overweight? Undoubtedly. But could I have lived another way? I don't honestly think so.
[ 09. July 2006, 18:19: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
I think it also takes a bit of knowing what you are doing to cook healthily.
Being a student, i don't have a lot of money for food. I'm vegan, so no expensive animal protein. I do get an organic vegbox delivered (about £4/week), and between that & the 'slightly squashed' shelf of the supermarket i get lots of fruit & veg. If you are confident in your cooking ability, this is not a problem - even if i don't recognise or name everything i'm eating, i'm fairly sure of how to make it edible, at least by 'boil or bake 'till squidgy-ish, taste, add curry paste if necessary'. But someone who's not been brought up knowing how to cook from scratch couldn't do that.
Similarly, my main protein sources are beans, pulses & nuts - cheap, fairly easy & tasty once you know where to buy & how to cook, but if you don't then you can give yourself nasty food poisoning, and a jar of lentils doesn't look very much like a meal to start off with [awaits inevitable anti-veggie comments].
Ready meals are just less intimidating if that's what you are used to, and if you've not cooked an easy tomato & lentil sauce before it'll take a lot longer to prepare, need a lot more clearing up, and the end result the first few times you cook it probably won't be that great either, if you're unlucky to the point of being inedible so that's the price of the meal & time wasted - in that situation ready meals do look like the most sensible option.
I'm not saying this is a problem for everyone, but i do think that for some it is. In the area of South Wales for which my Mum is a Health Visitor [community nurse specialising in mothers & young children], the teenage pregnancy rate is very high. A few years ago then at least the local youngsters would get Sunday Lunch with their grandparents, but now even that's less common with multiple generations of teenage parents - and cookery isn't often taught in schools, and even if it is then it's turned into studying Food Technology instead of how to make dinner.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) X-post - backs away from Firenze looking worried
[ 09. July 2006, 18:28: Message edited by: Duck ]
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
How long does it take to make a salad? Or a stir fry? No longer than it takes to put a packet in the microwave or oven and wait.
It's quick doing the stir-frying, but before you do that, you have to chop everything up, before which you have to wash it and de-seed it (if it has seeds), etc.
If you think it's as quick to fix a microwave meal as it is to fix a stir-fry, I'd have to conclude you've never actually fixed a stir-fry.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
On the other hand, unhealthy meals can take ages.
I have just spent 20 minutes boning a duck. It is now spread out like a coverlet in the oven, thereby generating the greatest amount of crispy roast duck skin. Presently I will go an do tricky things with tins of scalding fat, to retrieve the meat juices and then proceed to do further things with orange juice, rowan jelly and kumquats.
Ooh, Firenze! I could be round in about 20 minutes, you know, if you've got any spare!
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
Ok...I hesitate to say this, being genetically programmed to be thin, but two months ago I suddenly switched to a training diet.
Now I'm really, really wanting results from the weight training I'm doing so I'm very motivated about this, but really it has not been that time consuming.
I also admit it would be harder if I were cooking for a family and not just for myself, but sauteeing fish or chicken breasts, steaming vegetables and eating lots of fresh fruit isn't that big a deal.
Plus I find that if I look most restaurants have something on the menu that isn't a heart attack waiting to happen.
Then if something really worthwhile comes down the pike once a week or so, like that delicious sounding meal Firenze is preparing, I can pig out occasionally.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I agree, Fiddleback, it doesn't take much time to prepare healthy meals.
How long does it take to make a salad? Or a stir fry? No longer than it takes to put a packet in the microwave or oven and wait.
M.
Okay, putting your salad packet in the microwave is just a bit decadent. Or weird. Or both.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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rosamundi
Ship's lacemaker
# 2495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't quite understand the 'it's expensive to eat healthily' comments.
In my own experience (and that's all it is, I make no universal claims), it is much cheaper to buy good basic ingredients and cook them than to buy ready-made meals.
This is something I've been interested in for a bit, and because I am sad and have no life, I've just done a comparison between a roasted red pepper soup I do on a fairly frequent basis, and the cost of a tin from Sainsburys. The home made soup (ingredients: red peppers, olive oil, onions, a potato, garlic, chopped tomatoes, tomato puree, vegetable stock, salt & pepper) costs £6.47 for 4 fairly generous servings, or £1.61 a serving. Sainsburys chunky tomato, bean and vegetable soup (the closest I could get to the red pepper one) costs 57p a can, so 28.50p per serving. So you can get over five servings of crap out of a tin for the cost of one serving of rather good home-cooked soup.
And that doesn't include the cost of having the stove on for 20 minutes whilst the soup cooks and so on.
I could repeat this exercise for the chilli con carne I'm having tonight, the chicken soup in the freezer, etc and so on, but I don't think I need to.
Deborah
[ 09. July 2006, 19:30: Message edited by: rosamundi ]
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Posts: 2382 | From: here or there | Registered: Mar 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Duck:
quote:
You know what? It's just a hobby. There is nothing that makes my 30-mile weekend long runs morally better or worse than a friend spending the time watching Stargate. I haven't all of a sudden got stupider, and nor am i some sort of a superhuman.
You hit the hail on the ned, Duck. You're enjoying it, so it can't possibly take credit for it as part of some healthy lifestyle thing.
Everyone knows that a healthy lifestyle involves getting up at 4am, a quick wash in a bucket of cold slime, and a good invigorating three-hour workout at the hateful activity of your choice, because being miserable builds character.
Then it's home for a nourishing bowl of birdseed slightly softened in tepid water, and some camomile tea - none of that nasty old caffeine for you! For a special treat, to stave off those midmorning cravings, you are allowed a nice bar of high-fructose diet cardboard. Remember, a treat isn't a treat unless the faintest semblance of food content has been removed and replaced with industrial substitutes.
If you're really, really good, one day you might even get your poo critiqued on national television! This is the great reward for which many strive, but few can hope to attain.
You're happier than ever on this regime... and yet, every day, inexplicably, your irrational hatred for the French gets stronger and stronger. They think they're so smart, with their leisurely meals and poncey runney cheeses? With their delicious desserts made out of highest-quality dark chocolate, decadent eggs, whole milk, and a whisper of sugar... Don't they know they should be eating the LOW FAT version, that comes in plastic protuberances of four, and does not take up valuable preparation time that you would otherwise spend ironing your hair shirt for the good of humanity? And DON'T THEY KNOW THEY SHOULD BE FAT?!??? DON'T THEY KNOW THAT IF YOU GET TOO HAPPY, SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD HAS TO BE MISERABLE? THEY'RE RUINING YOUR LIFE!!!
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
I could repeat this exercise for the chilli con carne I'm having tonight, the chicken soup in the freezer, etc and so on, but I don't think I need to.
I can certainly buy an uncooked chicken and roast it at home cheaper than I can buy an already roasted chicken at the grocery store.
I can make a basic potato soup cheaper than I can buy a premium brand potato soup at the store but probably not cheaper than I can buy a can of Campbell's.
There are comparisons and then there are comparisons.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Ooh, Firenze! I could be round in about 20 minutes, you know, if you've got any spare!
It was every bit as tasty as I expected. (I would so recommend the kumquats - just the right touch of acidity). Nothing left but the legs - which will go into my lunchbox for tomorrow, with some mango chutney.
But can you teach what I do? I don't believe any of my present skill derived from what I was taught in school (even though I was of the generation where Domestic Science for Girls was still the norm). I learnt from experimentation in my mother's kitchen, from living on my own as a student/post student. I learned because I wantedto, because I like food. I don't think this will ever be general; there will be plenty like Gort (and a girl I used to share a flat with) who are of the 'food is fuel' tendency. There will be even more who just don't see the point, after a day's work, and the basic cleaning, childcare, daily upkeep - of faffing about with all this chopping and grating and mixing when there is such a thing as fish fingers or a pizza.
You can't lecture people into cooking everything from fresh meals, any more than you can lecture them into walking to work rather than taking the bus. We can only do so much, and frankly, can you blame most of us for preferring (when we have the choice) to do what is easy and pleasant rather than what is harder - even if that 'harder' is more healthy?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Telepath:
Everyone knows that a healthy lifestyle involves getting up at 4am, a quick wash in a bucket of cold slime, and a good invigorating three-hour workout at the hateful activity of your choice, because being miserable builds character.
Then it's home for a nourishing bowl of birdseed slightly softened in tepid water, and some camomile tea - none of that nasty old caffeine for you! For a special treat, to stave off those midmorning cravings, you are allowed a nice bar of high-fructose diet cardboard. Remember, a treat isn't a treat unless the faintest semblance of food content has been removed and replaced with industrial substitutes.
If you're really, really good, one day you might even get your poo critiqued on national television! This is the great reward for which many strive, but few can hope to attain.
You're happier than ever on this regime... and yet, every day, inexplicably, your irrational hatred for the French gets stronger and stronger. They think they're so smart, with their leisurely meals and poncey runney cheeses? With their delicious desserts made out of highest-quality dark chocolate, decadent eggs, whole milk, and a whisper of sugar... Don't they know they should be eating the LOW FAT version, that comes in plastic protuberances of four, and does not take up valuable preparation time that you would otherwise spend ironing your hair shirt for the good of humanity? And DON'T THEY KNOW THEY SHOULD BE FAT?!??? DON'T THEY KNOW THAT IF YOU GET TOO HAPPY, SOMEBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD HAS TO BE MISERABLE? THEY'RE RUINING YOUR LIFE!!!
Telepath: ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Firenze: Last weekend we roasted a duck and served it with an apricot and ginger sauce. It was very nice, but the sauce was a bit oversweet and could have done with a touch of acidity. I'll remember the kumquats.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
How long does it take to make a salad? Or a stir fry? No longer than it takes to put a packet in the microwave or oven and wait.
It's quick doing the stir-frying, but before you do that, you have to chop everything up, before which you have to wash it and de-seed it (if it has seeds), etc.
If you think it's as quick to fix a microwave meal as it is to fix a stir-fry, I'd have to conclude you've never actually fixed a stir-fry.
Can you buy ready-to-cook stir fry where you are Mousethief? I often do that now instead of buying a more typical ready meal, because it's about the same price. It's like a salad in a bag, but with bak choi, beansprouts, etc. etc.
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Sure, you can buy ready-to-go stir-fry vegetables in the states -- both frozen and fresh. But they're more expensive than buying your vegetables not already cut up; you either pay for someone else to cut up your vegetables or you do it yourself.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In other words, it costs in either money or time. Which was the original point, I believe.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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muchafraid
Shipmate
# 10738
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Posted
Not to mention the fact that those frozen stir-fry meals also include frozen "sauces" that are loaded with sugar, salt, and preservatives.
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all the glory when he took our place
but he took my shoulders, and he shook my face,
and he takes and he takes and he takes...sufjan stevens
Posts: 256 | From: baltimore, md | Registered: Nov 2005
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
In which case I misunderstood, sorry.
I was making a comparison between healthy and unheathly ready-meals. It is not true that it's cheaper to buy microwaveable meals than e.g. ready-chopped stir fry, and both take the same time to cook. It is not, I think, cheaper to buy pizza than ready-made salads.
If money is an issue I doubt you can really afford microwave meals of any sort, nor pizzas, etc.
ET reply to muchafraid - you can leave out the sauce, usually ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 10. July 2006, 00:20: Message edited by: xSx ]
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
It does not cost much in money or time to chop up a carrot and a few other veggies. It takes me less than a minute with my blunt kitchen knife
(Dee will tell you that my kitchen is a chef's worst nightmare - not much kit and blunt knives).
Making a ball of hot water crust pastry only takes me four minutes of actual work.
Cooking good food does require knowhow though, both in making ingredients taste good (or rather, not ruining them in good Anglo-Saxon fashion by boiling them to death). This is where the French have got it right, and we have got it so wrong.
It certainly takes less time than walking to the chippy and back. I'm afraid I'm with Telepath, Fiddleback etc. all the way.
And eating healthily should never require "diets".
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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ananke
Shipmate
# 10059
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Posted
Once you find your strengths, cooking is easy.
For example: I cannot make pastry. Neither can my mother. But both of us make wonderful pasta. The skills for which transfer well to stir fry, stew and casseroles/bakes. All a matter of balancing the ingredients.
Which isn't to say I'm not fat, or that I'm well off. I've got a great job, as does my partner and neither of our jobs require unkind hours (mostly). I also have the 'luxury' of a partner who is actually a partner and will cook a couple of times a week.
If I'd just finished a 12 hour shift on my feet, had come home to hungry children and a partner who had also done a 12 hour shift, I wouldn't be as keen to cook. Even the ten minutes of prep it takes for my favourite recipes would seem too much.
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...and I bear witness, this grace, this prayer so long forgotten.
A Perfect Circle - Magdalena
Posts: 617 | From: australia | Registered: Aug 2005
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
If you're too busy to cook (as I frequently am during the week) the simple answer is to cook food in advance, ie, on the weekend, and freeze it. All that is required is a bit of forward planning.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think I eat healthily; the trouble is I eat too bloody much - my appetite doesn't seem to have an 'off' switch and those two little words, "I'm full", don't seem to hit the front of my brain. It probably stems, like most people's I suspect, from all this "Think of the starving children in Poland*/ Biafra*/ Ethiopia*" mantra we were raised on. Plus I do like a little tipple or three with my meal (as do the French and Italians and, as has been pointed out, they're not lard-arses, so why am I?).
OK, that's the problem, at least for me. Fiddleback and Co, when you're not channelling Marjorie Dawes or thinking [Tom Baker voice]"Personally I think all fat people should be shot, lazy f***ers"[/Tom Baker voice]**, what should we do?
* Delete according to when you were born.
**Acknowledgements/ apologies etc to Messrs Lucas and Walliams
[ 10. July 2006, 08:25: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Err.. I dunno - how about serving yourself with however much your brain rather than your body reckons you need?
Or if that doesn't work, making sure you don't have junk food such as biscuits and crisps around the house (we don't because Mrs Cod succumbs to Irresistible Impulses).
Or if that's no good, eat extra and find a way of burning it off in exercise.
Or if that's no good, ten Hail Marys, ten Pater Nosters and ten strokes of the Cat I suppose.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
OK, that's the problem, at least for me. Fiddleback and Co, when you're not channelling Marjorie Dawes or thinking [Tom Baker voice]"Personally I think all fat people should be shot, lazy f***ers"[/Tom Baker voice]**, what should we do?
Keep less food in the house. Easy. You can't eat it if it isn't there. Don't do a weekly shop in Sainsburys or Tescos, but buy what you need every day locally. It might seem more expensive, but you will spend less in a week. The reason why places like Tescos are so successful is that they are so very good at getting people to buy far, far more than they need.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
French and Italians [aren't] lard-arses, so why am I?
Earlier in the same post by Matt Black:
quote:
the trouble is I eat too bloody much
I don't wish to be presumptuous, but I can see a connection here ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
At your next meal, try putting just a little less on your plate than you think will satisfy you.
Before your meal, turn off the TV (if it was on in the first place).
I know you would never start eating without waiting for everyone else at the table to be served, you paragon of decorum, you. Nevertheless, don't break this most excellent habit.
If you have a rest of the household, eat your meals with them wherever possible.
In between bites, put your knife and fork down.
If you're still hungry after you finish everything on your plate, stop and wait for a few minutes before taking another helping. You may find that you don't want it so much after all.
If you cease to be hungry before you finish everything on your plate, stop eating. Proxy eating on behalf of an impoverished country is a very inefficient form of aid.
Over time, your shopping lists and recipe sizes will adjust to fit your decreased appetite, so you'll have less of an issue with food wastage. And in any event, unwanted food is just as wasted if you use your body as a dustbin instead of the kitchen pedal bin.
Now, try your best not to eat anything until the next meal. If you're really really ravenous, to the extent that you are visualizing your coworkers on platters with apples in their mouths, eat a little snack. Something lovely, like a group of grapes, a handful of walnuts, and a nibble of blue cheese. Or some almonds would be nice. Or, how about one square of 70% proof chocolate? Mmmmm.
If you're not really really ravenous, just go with the feeling of hunger. You will really enjoy your next meal.
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I suppose I should qualify the 'eat too much' bit: it's only really in the context of when Mrs Black leaves something on her plate (particularly if I've prepared the meal), I have this insatiable urge to finish off what she's left rather than throw it away and 'waste' it. However, I accept your point about my body being as much of a dustbin as the real thing; never really thought about it in that way, so that point may well be helpful...
[ 10. July 2006, 09:55: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I can certainly buy an uncooked chicken and roast it at home cheaper than I can buy an already roasted chicken at the grocery store.
That is certainly true, I expect. And a nice chicken can do you for 3 or 4 healthy meals, plus you can make soup with the leftovers if you know how.
But of course the upfront price isn't the only thing that may make it difficult or expensive. A lot of less well off people (here at least) live in places where there's little access to fresh ingredients. The local shop in a sink estate is unlikely to stock fresh chickens, or nice veg. And getting to shops with a better range of products can be an expensive business. And people may not have the facilities to roast a chicken. I've certainly lived in places where there was no oven adequate for a chicken, or where I was too scared of the other inhabitants to spend much time in the shared kitchen.
Plus it's not just expense. Remember the Jamie Oliver school dinners project (did that show outside the UK at all?) where he was dealing with children who couldn't name basic vegetables because they'd never seen them. When he first gave the children slices of tasty roast chicken they spat it out in disgust - they were horrified by the texture and the bland taste, and revolted that it had come off a chicken carcass. The only chicken they'd ever had was chopped, reformed, breaded and packed with salt, sugar and additives, that's what their tastes were trained to like. It takes serious work to change conditoning like that. Like Firenze says, schools can only do so much, you learn to cook and how to eat in the kitchen at home.
Plus, there was an interesting expose of the food trade I saw some time ago. One of the things they did was analyse the actual content of various grades of chicken. It turned out that a cheap fresh chicken - the factory farmed kind - was far from a healthy or low fat food. Because of farming methods, the lack of activity, never going outdoors, the diet and the hormones the meat itself was poor quality, almost free of nutritional value and very, very fatty. On top of that the manufacturers inject the carcass after slaughter with a mixture of (I think) water and vegetable oils to bulk up the weight and try to disguise the poor quality. The analysis showed that the cheapest chickens contained more fat than traditionally high-fat meats.
So assuming you've managed to learn to cook, managed to get to a decent shop, can get access to the facilities to cook properly and can get your brat kids to eat proper food (none of which, addmittedly, is impossible, just difficult), if you buy the only chicken you can afford it's quite likely what you're feeding your kids is still no better for them than a Turkey Twizzler would have been!
Nobody is suggesting that its impossible for the poor to eat and cook sensibly, lots already do. But there are extra difficulties and it always irritates me when people who don't face those difficulties deride those who do for not overcoming them.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
The local shop in sink estate is likely to sell white bread, tins of baked beans, chocolate, pasties, cheese, pizza, crisps, jam and, um, not much else at all.....
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Infinite Penguins.
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My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
I think I'm not the only one running out of energy to keep arguing about this. It's also been rather personal and non-purgatorial at times, some times more intentional than others. ISTM that being healthy in body, mind and spirit is 'a good thing'TM but members of the ship would disagree on the prominence and order and balance of these things and the degree of self determination involved in achieving them.
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
The local shop in sink estate is likely to sell white bread, tins of baked beans, chocolate, pasties, cheese, pizza, crisps, jam and, um, not much else at all.....
Exactly.
Which, if you live in Easterhouse, Drumchapel or Wester Hailes makes Fiddleback's 'buy what you need every day locally' pretty much identical to 'let them eat cake'. Except cake and heroin are probably a damn sight easier to get than free range, organic food.
I believe the local people in Easterhouse and some of the other Glasgow estates have actually done a lot of hard work setting up food co-ops to bring affordable fresh produce into their area, which is great, but only a start.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Im not keen on "ready meals" but i did notice tescos do 5 meals for 4 pounds from their healthy range.
You can also live on toast and cereal quite happily (i did when i was depressed) which is cheap and easy but not exactly a balanced diet.
Healthy food *does* take more time and effort and money to prepare than instant crap. I think its worth all those things but it is the initial time that goes into it - the planing to buy the right amount of veg so you dont waste them etc that comes with time. to begin with its a lot of time and energy **until** you know what yorue doing. Then I do agree - its as quick.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Don't do a weekly shop in Sainsburys or Tescos, but buy what you need every day locally.
It is always so interesting, is it not, to have a glimpse into exotic lifestyles?
Someone who has local, well-stocked shops and time, during the working day, to visit them. Time, even, to then adjourn to his home and dispose of his purchases - as opposed to, say, having to leave fresh meat, or fish, or milk, or yoghurt, or butter, or lettuce under a desk in a hot and busy office for 3 or 4 hours - preparatory to taking them on a crowded bus or train for perhaps a further hour. And it's not as if he has to carry a briefcase or a laptop at the same time, since he can single-thread domestic and work life.
Fascinating. But nothing like real life.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
If you think, Fiddleback, that people on the dole can afford to shop at Sainsburies or Tescos then ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Or even, for that matter, families with but a single (minimum) wage can afford to shop there.
You remind me of that 80's Tory MP who thought the dole was a life of luxury, and then agreed to try for a month, and then said publically that the dole was not enough to live on, and really that it was impossible to even survive on it for more than a very short time without getting into debt....
[ 10. July 2006, 10:33: Message edited by: Papio ]
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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...so quite what my excuse is (middle class, professional, car, wife working part-time, living in middle-class area with Tescos (x2 + Tescos Express), Sainsbury's (x2), Co-op supermarket all within 15 minutes' drive plusfresh fruit and veg store within 10 minutes walk, prepare own meals (no ready-meals here!) etc) I don't know...
[oh, and a butchers and another greengrocer w/in 5 minutes' drive/ 20 minutes' walk ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ]
[ 10. July 2006, 10:42: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
...so quite what my excuse is (middle class, professional, car, wife working part-time, living in middle-class area with Tescos (x2 + Tescos Express), Sainsbury's (x2), Co-op supermarket all within 15 minutes' drive plusfresh fruit and veg store within 10 minutes walk, prepare own meals (no ready-meals here!) etc) I don't know...
Yep. You, like me, have no excuse whatsoever. We're just very, very bad people. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Well, we do have it all handed to us on a plate, don't we.
(I'll get me coat.)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Blimey, if there's anywhere cheaper in the UK than Tesco things have changed in the five years since I left.
If one can't make time to do one decent weekly shop, then I suppose one needs to prioritise one's time a bit better.
As for Drumchapel and the like, most people don't live in places like that (although I feel nothing but pity for those that do). Comparing the majority of people who have reasonably decent access to shops to the French aristocracy of the eighteenth century seems a bit much to me.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Blimey, if there's anywhere cheaper in the UK than Tesco things have changed in the five years since I left.
Nettos, Liddls, KwikSave, need i go on?
The trouble is that such stores do not sell a lot of fruit and veg, except in cans which have been pumped ful of sugar and/or salt and also loads of e-numbers.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
If you think, Fiddleback, that people on the dole can afford to shop at Sainsburies or Tescos then
Or even, for that matter, families with but a single (minimum) wage can afford to shop there.
And yet, if those families on the dole or on low incomes round Cosmoville are to be regarded as in anyway normative (which is what the market research companies think), they seem to be able to afford to eat every meal from a take-away pizza place or the KFC or McDonalds or the Indian/Chinese takeaways or the remarkably expensive readymeals from the convienience stores.
It is much cheaper to buy decent food day by day
from a butcher, fishmonger and greengrocer, especially if one lives on one's own. And even if one lives in a town without these necessary places then it is still cheaper to buy from Tesco's or Sainsbury's than from convienience shops and takeaways.
People have to learn to buy food in sensible quantities, how to use all the food that they buy rather than throwing half of it away, to buy food that it in season which is cheaper and to find cheaper cuts of meat and fish which are still very tasty and nourishing.
Get an allotment and grow your own vegetables. Bake your own bread rather than eat bits of plastic. Never allow children to graze from the fridge or eat alone in their room. Yes, it takes time and it takes work. But to say that it's impossible to eat cheaply and well is just plain wrong.
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Blimey, if there's anywhere cheaper in the UK than Tesco things have changed in the five years since I left.
Nettos, Liddls, KwikSave, need i go on?
The trouble is that such stores do not sell a lot of fruit and veg, except in cans which have been pumped ful of sugar and/or salt and also loads of e-numbers.
The Lidl I knew in Glasgow had plenty of fruit and veg. People still seemed to find the chippy handy though. You've got to be pretty loaded to live off fish suppers and Irn Bru / Tennants in my opinion.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Pants
Emergency underwear
# 999
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Posted
As Cod said, having done both, its a damn site more expensive living off takeaways than buying 'real' food. Tesco's etc is plenty cheap enough.
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♣ Many big thank yous to those who sponsored us. ♣
I use £6m of military hardware to find hidden Tupperware in the woods.
Posts: 15217 | From: A grown up house | Registered: May 2003
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
As for Drumchapel and the like, most people don't live in places like that (although I feel nothing but pity for those that do).
Thank goodness. But those are the areas where obesity is rife, diets are generally not good, and life expectancy is actually falling. Presumably those fat people (quite possibly the fattest in the country) are included in the general derision, not just middle-class fat people who have easy access to organic farm shops.
quote:
Comparing the majority of people who have reasonably decent access to shops to the French aristocracy of the eighteenth century seems a bit much to me.
Yes, it would be. Who did it?
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
The real problem, IMO, is that amongst the poorer part of the white English working class or Lumpenproletariat we are now on the second or third generation that has never learned to cook. People are not born knowing what to do with raw ingredients. Cooking or Domestic Science has dropped off the National Curriculum (to be replaced by the useless 'Food Technology'), mothers and some grandmothers don't regularly buy fresh food and prepare it, children don't grow up seeing it being prepared, and so you can provide as many farmers' markets as you like, all piled high with fresh, cheap, local food: the people Papio and FB are referring to won't know what to do with it.
On the other hand, immigrants and the bourgeoisie will have a field day (and so will Firenze and I)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
the people Papio and FB are referring to won't know what to do with it.
My wife and I are a quite-low-but-not-the-lowest income family and I can't really cook well. Nevertheless my lunch today is fresh (mostly), healthy, filling and cheap. It is a salad of lettuce, tomato, cucumber, tasty chedder and tinned salmon in a box, and an apple for pud. If you buy stuff like that in a sensible quantity (so it doesn't spoil before you eat it), then you have a week of filling and tasty lunches for about 4 quid. It doesn't take that much imagination really. There's no clever dressing or arrangement, it is just thrown in together.
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It also occurs to me that people who berate others for being fat tend to be people with extremely high metabolisms, and large amounts of self-righteousness.
Guilty! I suppose I can admit to being self-righteous, although I don't have a high metabolism. It may be worth pointing out that I'm 6'2" and weigh 14 stone with a deep love of mixed grills. I am perfectly happy with this salady kind of lunch and it keeps us in the black. If I am honest it gives me a moderate high of self-righteous smugness when I walk past the bloaters in designer trainers in KFC on my way to the car at the end of the day. An impulse I fight.
[ 10. July 2006, 11:21: Message edited by: PeaceFeet ]
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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Jonathan Strange
Shipmate
# 11001
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeaceFeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
It also occurs to me that people who berate others for being fat tend to be people with extremely high metabolisms, and large amounts of self-righteousness.
Guilty! I suppose I can admit to being self-righteous...
Another foolish post from me; I don't actually go around berating others for being fat. I fight the impulse to think like that.
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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"
Posts: 1327 | From: Wessex | Registered: Feb 2006
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
You've got to be pretty loaded to live off fish suppers and Irn Bru / Tennants in my opinion.
And actually, just to be difficult, I don't think that's true. A fish supper is, what, £2.50, £3.00? And around here that buys you enough chips to sink a battleship, two people could quite easily share it for their dinner. And cheapo Xtra Strength lager is... well, I'll check when I walk along to the shop but it's certainly cheap.
If that was truly all you were eating and drinking (and there are one or two characters round here that might well be) it would be pretty economical. Until you died, obviously.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
If you think, Fiddleback, that people on the dole can afford to shop at Sainsburies or Tescos then
Hunh? I don't beieve Matt Black is on the dole.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
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Posted
On our current diet regime, my husband and I are buying only fresh and unprocessed foods to cook with - most of which comes from the fruit and vegetable section. We don't buy organic, but we do go to Sainsburys, because generally the fruit and vegetables there are better quality than the ones you get at Tesco or Asda. We're spending about £10 - £12 per day for two people. This is fine for us because we're relatively financially secure. But a low income family would struggle badly at this kind of expense. Six months ago we had money troubles, and even though we tried our best, it was difficult to eat enough fruit and vegetables on a limited budget. We weren't buying any ready-meals ackeaged stuff at all. However our diet consisted mostly of starches like pasta and rice, which are cheap and filling. Not very nutritious though. And the cheap cuts or meat are the fatty ones. I wouldn't call myself a good cook, but I know my way around a kitchen and I can prepare most meals from scratch. And even though we were intentionally trying to eat a healthy diet, somehow the finances never seemed to quite allow it.
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Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
And the cheap cuts or meat are the fatty ones.
There's a simple solution to that problem -- don't eat meat.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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