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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: It's not my fault I'm fat and broke!
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
And the cheap cuts or meat are the fatty ones.
There's a simple solution to that problem -- don't eat meat.
That is the worst advice I've ever heard. Meat is an absolutely vital ingredient in any diet.
Well, that's my story and I'm, sticking to it. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
And the cheap cuts or meat are the fatty ones.
There's a simple solution to that problem -- don't eat meat.
Cheese is even more fatty, and the other half doesn't like nuts or tofu and thinks that chickpeas and lentils are for sissies. There's no much alternative if you're looking for protein.
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Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
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CrookedCucumber
Shipmate
# 10792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Genie:
Cheese is even more fatty, and the other half doesn't like nuts or tofu and thinks that chickpeas and lentils are for sissies. There's no much alternative if you're looking for protein.
If you want to eat meat ( or you partner does ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) that's between you and your conscience. But to claim that there is no healthy alternative is simply incorrect.
Posts: 2718 | From: East Dogpatch | Registered: Dec 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
On the "not eating meat point", I have a somewhat cautionary tale, which ties in with the comment someone made on this thread about 100 years ago that the reason we like fat and sugar is that historically we only had access to them rarely: in the mid 80s when I was a teenager, mum decided we were all going to be vegetarian. As she was the only one in the house who cooked at that time she got her way. But yours truly couldn't quite give up his meat craving (and there was probably a sound biological reason for that as I was going through a growth spurt), which manifested itself in smuggling in packets of pork scratchings. The trouble is, ever since then and despite reverting to being an open carnivore a few years later, I still have something of an addiction for the horrible pig's toenails and, now I'm eating 'normal' meat ono a regular basis, they're just plain bad for me.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
Here's a thought...
What if some folks don't mind being overweight? What if being overweight is less of an evil than the skill, time, energy, planning, sacrifice it would take to become thin for some?
This argument started because Fiddleback claimed that laughter and mockery is a good way to get fat people to change. Sure, it's possible to eat well for cheap, especially if your lifestyle already easily accommodates such practices, and especially if you have a high metabolism and come from a family of thin people who all made great choices about their weight, etc. It's true, people who are 300 pounds and up can lose weight if they really put their minds to it.
My concern is what damn business is it of yours to tell anyone else how they should handle their weight? The arrogance of some of the attitudes on this thread sicken me. "Oh well I can find this food for cheap here and if you can't find the time to do this or that then you need to straighten your priorities." How the hell do you (the general you, of course) know what my priorities are?
No, people ridicule other people because it's self-serving. Fit people may not struggle with their weight, but they struggle in other areas. It's far easier to forget about those weak parts when they're having a good laugh at the "fatties" across the way. "Yeah, I may have problems, but at least I'm not fat."
No, maybe not fat, but incredibly ugly.
-Digory
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
I'm overweight and don't mind it all. Sometimes I get more overweight (thanks to xmas and t-day)than I want to be and work to lose a pant size or two, but I find it rahter easy to maintain my current weight - which is more than doctors would say is healthy, I imagine. But I'm not self-conscious about it and until some NASA scientists complain that I am throwing off the orbital path of the Earth, I think I'll continue to happily fill my 44/46s.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
It is my opinion that nobody should smoke. Smoking kills and is unproductive. It stinks and colors teeth a sick shade of yellow. I speak from past experience as an ex-smoker who smoked for over 13 years before I quit. If I can quit, obviously, people who can not quit choose not too out of sheer laziness. Smoking kills faster and in a more effective manner than being too fat. Studies show it causes more blockage faster which in turn causes heart attacks.
It is especially a bad example for a clergy person to smoke since they are encouraging their flock that this is ok, by example...of somebody who is too lazy to quit smoking, slowly killing themselves. Kind of selfish.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
If one can't make time to do one decent weekly shop, then I suppose one needs to prioritise one's time a bit better.
That may be true, but if you don't know what another person actually does with their time, it is presumptuous beyond words.
Not so many years ago, I was a single mom with four kids, including an infant. I had a full-time job. On a typical day, I got up at 5:30, got my shower, got the kids up at 6, got breakfast for them, fed the baby while they were eating, took school-aged kids to school, baby to daycare, went to work. Nine hours later, I picked baby up from daycare, then picked school-aged kids up from their after-school care. We left the house at 7 a.m., got home at 6:30. Dinner, baths, and bedtime rituals for the three odler kids had to be complete by 8:30, and I had a baby to care for as well. After kids were in bed, I had to do dishes and laundry, fix bottles and baby food for the next day, and do whatever else had to be done.
I did find a way to buy and prepare healthy food for us (including preparing baby food from scratch). But in amongst all that other stuff, I did not sit down and go over my kids' homework with them. The after-school program they went to had a homework room, and the kids were supposed to do their homework there. If they didn't, it didn't get done.
And for Eldest Son, it often didn't get done. When I had a meeting with the school staff to talk about the difficulties he was having at school, the guidance counselor said I should be going over his homework with him every night, making sure it was properly completed, that he had followed the teachers' instructions to the letter, etc., etc. I told her I couldn't do that, that there was simply not time in the evenings to do it. She looked at me condescendingly and told me I needed to get my priorities in order.
As far as I was concerned, my priorities were in order. There was only so much time in a day, and keeping my kids clean, well fed, and well rested were more important to me than going over their homework. There really wasn't time for everything. And if, for example, I also had to look after an elderly relative -- then something would have had to give up something else -- something else that was indeed important, but not as important as the other things. Cooking from scratch probably would have been it.
It's quite true that someone else might have prioritized things in a different way -- they might have thought it was more important to check a child's homework than to get the child to bed on time. Someone else might decide that helping their children with their homework is more important than doing a weekly shopping trip and preparing meals from scratch. Buying fast-food burgers on the way home would likely have freed up enough time to have allowed me to do that. But I thought decent family dinners were more important. Maybe I was right, maybe not.
But the guidance counselor was wrong to think she could set my priorities for me. And you are wrong to think you can set priorities for other people as well.
Maybe some people can't fit in a decent weekly shop because they're lazy, or spend too much time watching TV or messing around online or out with their friends. But others honestly have more important things to do.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Thank you, Josephine. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OliviaG:
Thank you, Josephine. OliviaG
ditto
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
[X-posted - reply to Genie]
Vegan food for one costs me around £15 a week, maybe £20 with treats like fair-trade choc & or fair-trade dried mango - & that's with mostly organic fruit & veg, as much fair-trade stuff as i can conveniently buy locally (mostly dried fruit for snacks) & not being totally obsessive about cheap everything - if i'm really paying attention to cost then £10/week isn't too difficult.
I mostly buy from a local vegbox delivery scheme, the local Co-op corner shop, spices & dried beans & nuts from Asian-owned grocery shop (very useful for cheap staples), and maybe once a month trip to large supermarket (bringing home what i can carry on a bicycle), and the odd trip to the veggie 'wholefood' shop on the other side of town for hard-to-find stuff. This isn't a 'boring uber-healthy' diet either - i need some energy-dense food like crisps & sweets to keep calorie intake up during hard training.
Without buying expensive animal protein i can afford a wide range of veggies & carbs & still have an inexpensive, nutritionally-balanced diet. If a vegan diet is nutritionally inadequate for you, you'd better be able to convince me you have a solid medical condition that makes it so, 'cos it keeps me going on some intense training and there's plenty of world-class vegan athletes around. If you just don't like eating beans, i'll reluctantly concede that that's your choice - but please don't try to claim that meat's anything but an unnecessary luxury.
[ 10. July 2006, 18:41: Message edited by: Duck ]
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
It is especially a bad example for a clergy person to smoke since they are encouraging their flock that this is ok, by example...of somebody who is too lazy to quit smoking, slowly killing themselves. Kind of selfish.
I understand that the Pope smokes.
And Thomas Aquinas was very fat.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Hatless, I am at a loss how smokers are any less lazy than those who engage in eating junkfood (which is part of my point in my previous post) which seems to be believed by some posting in this thread (but maybe I am wrong about that???). And smoking was not known to be a health hazard way back when back when.
I am wondering where you read that the current pope smokes. Does he really?
[edited to make a little more clear in context.]
[ 10. July 2006, 18:56: Message edited by: duchess ]
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
It is especially a bad example for a clergy person to smoke since they are encouraging their flock that this is ok, by example...of somebody who is too lazy to quit smoking, slowly killing themselves. Kind of selfish.
I understand that the Pope smokes.
And Thomas Aquinas was very fat.
I think it my point was lost here. I am not the one who thinks it is ok to make fun of people for being fat. On the contrary, I think it is very cruel and my post was to make some stop and think in their tracks.
I give up right now. I just can't make people see how being mindlessly cruel is ungodly, hurtful and unhelpful.
Forced conversions are never useful.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
Another point of view:
One of the more crap things about running (especially if you're female, but it happens to blokes too), is that people will laugh at you in the street. Small children will think it's incredibly original & witty to shout '118! 118!' or 'Run, Forrest, Run!'. Older children and adults seem to feel quite free to pass judgement on your weight, speed, bra size, or indeed any other comments.
If you are female, you'll probably recieve unwanted & threatening male attention, probably also physical contact - i've had a knife pulled on me once, running at 6am through a 'safe' part of town.
Even those who don't actually threaten you are likely to be unimpressed - my grandfather seems to regard my running in public wearing baggy shorts & t-shirt as roughly equivalent to performing a sexual act with a chicken in the public park.
Non-exercisers will feel threatened by you, regardless of your own behaviour. You might be told you are 'skinny', even if you wouldn't dream of commenting on, or particularly care about, other people's body shape. Maybe you'll be called a 'jock', or it'll be otherwise implied that your hobby means you are intellectually inferior to someone who spends their time in more sedentary pursuits (there's a lot to be science-geeky about in running, and it does give you uninterrupted thinking time).
Please don't get me started on bl00dy dog-walkers.
If you're a cyclist, it's quite easy to decide that everyone is actually out to kill you.
So, in the face of all this opposition from other people to you just doing what you enjoy without harming anyone else, naturally you might get a little defensive. Hopefully, you'll just talk up the positive benefits of your hobby, in much the same way as a LARPer might tell you how much fun it is to dress up in funny costumes and hit other people with rubber swords - it's a social activity that gets you out in the fresh air, you'll feel a lot better for it! But it's very easy for talking up what you love to turn into dismissing people who 'don't get it' - particularly when the rest of the world seems to be actively hostile to your favourite activity.
Sad, but classic social psychology - define an 'in-group' and an 'out-group', and one way or the other conflict will probably turn up - and it's usually easier to pick out keen runners in a crowd than keen LARPers, or sci-fi geeks, or knitters, because one side-effect of running is that it changes your body shape. Doesn't make it much different from any other hobby, an obvious badge of identity.
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duck:
[X-posted - reply to Genie]
If a vegan diet is nutritionally inadequate for you, you'd better be able to convince me you have a solid medical condition that makes it so, 'cos it keeps me going on some intense training and there's plenty of world-class vegan athletes around.
I have never seen such a dietism*-filled statement in my life. You know the Nazi's were all vegetarian, right?
Eh, Ok - I made the whole nazi-thing up. the word dietism wouldn't stand up under scrutiny either.
Your diet might be right for you, but that doesn't make it right for each and every person.
An appropriate article I suppose. quote:
Evidence from a few large cohort studies suggests that vegetarians have lower overall mortality ratios than the general population, but this is not the case when vegetarians are compared with similar non-vegetarian groups who follow a health-conscious lifestyle.
Following a vegetarian diet does not automatically equate to being healthier; vegetarians and meat-eaters alike need to be mindful of making appropriate dietary and lifestyle choices.
(emphasis mine)
*Dietism: n; 1 : a belief that diet is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that nutritional differences produce an inherent superiority in a particular dieter.
2 : deital prejudice or discrimination
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Yes, I thought you were being sarcastic, duchess. I was told the Pope smokes by a Baptist theologian!
This is an utterly fascinating thread because of the bizarre attitudes that people are demonstrating. Quite a lot of posters clearly despise fat people, which astonishes me. You don't have to change the subjects in the thread title too much to get from the fat and broke to the sick and the poor, who are the people Jesus squandered so much sympathy on. More fool him. He should have realised they were undeserving contemptible fools who needed to be mocked and perhaps given a little no nonsense advice about budgetting and healthy living.
I still want to ask how it is that though people may choose to eat to excess, that does not mean they choose to be fat. No one wants to be fat, but many people are simply not in control of themselves to even the extent of being able to regulate eating.
I understand that smokers who have lost a leg, had a heart attack, or surgery for lung cancer, almost always give up smoking. The incentive is so strong. But, a year later, fifty per cent of them are smoking again!!
We are not in control of ourselves in the simple, rational way so many people think. For some it's smoking or food, but most of us have our own faults, bits of life we can't get to grips with, negative behaviours we helplessly repeat.
Perhaps we should speak in terms of sin. Being fat is a sin, and those who are without sin are the only ones in a position to laugh.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
Nonpropheteer - i make no claims for the nutritional superiority of a vegan over a ovo-lacto-vegetarian or omnivourous diet, merely that being vegan is not nutritionally inferior for the average healthy adult. i'd suspect that any reasonably well-thought-out diet would be roughly equivalent nutritionally regardless of the meat content - maybe there'll be some slight difference in rates of bowel cancer or homocysteine levels but nothing as significant as the difference between living on [veggie]burgers & chips, or eating mostly home-cooked food planned with some thought - regardless of whether you're eating animals or not.
I did also recognise that some people may have medical issues which make a plant-based diet difficult or impossible - for example a friend had a condition which made him very ill if he ate too much fibre.
I also fully recognise that people may choose to enjoy unnecessary luxuries if they can - i don't need my dark choc, it's expensive, but as long as i can afford it i'll keep eating it 'cos i enjoy it. but for me to complain that i couldn't afford a healthy diet because i needed rather than wanted to spend my money on Maya Gold would be untrue.
It is unarguable that at least in the UK then a diet based mostly on plant protein is likely to be significantly cheaper than one based mostly on animal protein. If you don't believe me, find your nearest supermarket & compare the price of a piece of meat with a tin of beans.
A worked example for you:
From the Sainsbury's website:
Sainsbury's Chicken Skinless Breast Fillets x4 520g £5.99/
whereas tins of various beans are 3 for £1.
To make a meal for 4, I'd use 2, maybe 3 tins of beans, or presumably the packet of 4 bits of chicken. I haven't done the sums but i'm guessing that nutritionally, a stir-fry made with mixed beans v. skinless chicken is going to be roughly equivalent - low fat, and the mixed beans should provide all essential amino acids.
There's a £5 (one-third of my entire weekly food budget) difference between the cost of the two meals - so if cost is the limiting factor in your ability to eat healthily, then clearly plant-based food is going to be a significantly better option.
For most people in the UK, meat is an unnecessary luxury, and if you are finding eating healthily to be too expensive, replacing at least some animal with plant protein is likely to decrease the overall cost of a nutritious diet.
If you can afford animal protein, fine - that's a different argument. If you aren't that bothered about the nuritional quality of your diet & would prefer to eat steak (or the vegan eqivalent of dark choc) and be unable to afford fruit & veg - fine, again that's a different argument, and one which i'm inclined to accept.
But if you do want to both eat healthily, and limit the overall cost, then plant protein is usually the better option.
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Being fat is a sin, and those who are without sin are the only ones in a position to laugh.
I'm confused. Why is being fat a sin? I thought gluttony was the food-related sin? And isn't gluttony a love for food over and above a love for God? Maybe I am mistaken ...
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
This is an utterly fascinating thread because of the bizarre attitudes that people are demonstrating. Quite a lot of posters clearly despise fat people, which astonishes me.
People's attitudes towards fat people are really interesting. I have a friend who struggled with anorexia in her teens and now is very careful to eat healthily/go to the gym every day, etc. She isn't obsessive about it, but it startles me how judgemental she is about 'fat' or 'overweight' people, both in real life and (e.g.) on the TV. People I think look fairly normal 'shouldn't be allowed on TV', according to her. To give a practical example - those Dove adverts. featuring 'regular women' (none of whom are overweight to my eye) revolt her.
She wouldn't dream of talking or thinking like about other sorts of people. I've noticed similar views in others of my mind.
I wonder if part of the problem with 'fat' people is a) society's ideas of what constitutes fat have reached idiotic levels (if I watch films from 20/30 years ago, I'm realise quite how thin movie stars are now) and b) for many, there is something 'ugly' about fat people that there is not about others who endanger their health through their own choice (allowing for a moment, that ppl have responsibility for how fat they are).
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
We are subjected to a lot of 'healthy' advice. The effect is not so much on behaviour, but on subconscious attitude - like having a horror of sin (well, of sins you don't think you commit).
As I have said, I am thoroughly self-indulgent when it comes to food and drink. But a little while ago I was sitting in a pub in Vienna and two Viennese men where doing as Viennese do - chain smoking, drinking glass after glass of beer, and eating large amounts of salty, fatty food. And I felt genuinely scandalized.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Being fat is a sin, and those who are without sin are the only ones in a position to laugh.
I'm confused. Why is being fat a sin? I thought gluttony was the food-related sin? And isn't gluttony a love for food over and above a love for God? Maybe I am mistaken ...
I wouldn't say being fat is a sin. I know I did, but that was after I wrote 'Perhaps we should speak in terms of sin.' I then gave an example of speaking in terms of sin: we might say that 'Being fat is a sin.'
The point is that if being fat is a sin, which seems a rather harsh view, nonetheless there is a solidarity in it. We are all sinners. We can't laugh at each other for our sin. To call being fat a sin would actually be to downgrade it - just a sin, just like everyone has. The views of many on this thread is that being fat is worse than a sin: it is a scandal, something that forfeits the requirement that the rest of us should make the effort to understand or show compassion. People seem to be saying that fat people are bad in a way that they are not.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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muchafraid
Shipmate
# 10738
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Posted
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
To call being fat a sin would actually be to downgrade it - just a sin, just like everyone has. The views of many on this thread is that being fat is worse than a sin: it is a scandal, something that forfeits the requirement that the rest of us should make the effort to understand or show compassion. People seem to be saying that fat people are bad in a way that they are not.
If what you're saying is "By simply calling fatness a sin wouldn't be enough for these people. They have to make it sound like something WORSE than a sin to justify their cruelty," then I completely follow you and agree.
If that's not what you're saying, I'm afraid I'm totally lost.
I think that's really funny and interesting. "Well, if you were just SINNING like I do every second of every day, then I guess I could tolerate your fatness. But since you've gone BEYOND sin and into the realms of something much deeper, darker, and disgusting, God smiles down at my lack of mercy and applauds my jabs. I'll be rewarded for them someday!"
Please.
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all the glory when he took our place
but he took my shoulders, and he shook my face,
and he takes and he takes and he takes...sufjan stevens
Posts: 256 | From: baltimore, md | Registered: Nov 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duck:
Non-exercisers will feel threatened by you, regardless of your own behaviour.
Dream on.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
I maintain that it is possible to discuss the attitudes of society towards fat people and towards diet without the following:
whether Fiddleback is setting a bad example by smoking, comments about "dietism" (dreadful neologism and a near Godwin's Law reference too) and any post involving multiple use of ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) .
All of this is getting inappropriately personal.
If you want that kind of fight then take it to Hell, please.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Duo,
May I ask you, then, in your capacity as host, to also rule on the vile and numerous comments by Fiddleback and others about "fatties", "slobs', etc.? That's what provoked the comparison to smoking.
Thanks!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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A.F. Steve
Shipmate
# 9057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duck:
[X-posted - reply to Genie]
Vegan food for one costs me around £15 a week, maybe £20 with treats like fair-trade choc & or fair-trade dried mango - & that's with mostly organic fruit & veg, as much fair-trade stuff as i can conveniently buy locally (mostly dried fruit for snacks) & not being totally obsessive about cheap everything - if i'm really paying attention to cost then £10/week isn't too difficult.
I mostly buy from a local vegbox delivery scheme, the local Co-op corner shop, spices & dried beans & nuts from Asian-owned grocery shop (very useful for cheap staples), and maybe once a month trip to large supermarket (bringing home what i can carry on a bicycle), and the odd trip to the veggie 'wholefood' shop on the other side of town for hard-to-find stuff. This isn't a 'boring uber-healthy' diet either - i need some energy-dense food like crisps & sweets to keep calorie intake up during hard training.
Without buying expensive animal protein i can afford a wide range of veggies & carbs & still have an inexpensive, nutritionally-balanced diet. If a vegan diet is nutritionally inadequate for you, you'd better be able to convince me you have a solid medical condition that makes it so, 'cos it keeps me going on some intense training and there's plenty of world-class vegan athletes around. If you just don't like eating beans, i'll reluctantly concede that that's your choice - but please don't try to claim that meat's anything but an unnecessary luxury.
Expensive animal protien? Meat, particularly ground beef, seems to be one of the cheapest ways to eat on a tight budget. We ate a LOT of ground beef when my wife and I had just gotten married. $1.29/lb for beef here. That's next to nothing for enough meat to serve 4 in most casseroles, burgers, spaghetti, etc.
Luxury? I don't think that ground beef or chicken breasts are much in the way of luxuries, especially considering the outrageous cash that folks blow on organic junk in stores.
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Lived in FL, TX, NE, CA... I'm now immune to culture shock.
Posts: 1187 | From: Central CA Coast | Registered: Feb 2005
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migo
Apprentice
# 11635
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Posted
quote:
My concern is what damn business is it of yours to tell anyone else how they should handle their weight?
If I'm paying taxes that pay for the medical bills they incurr due to their obesity, it damn well is my business. They're using up doctors, of which there is already a shortage, which could spend their time dealing with patients who have problems for which there isn't an easy a solution as eating well. In countries that don't have universal health care, they're still eating an unnecessary amount of extra food that could very easily go to countries with famine if they weren't eating it. There are moral issues in chosing to be fat and not caring about the consequences to other people. (This of course doesn't apply to those who are trying to either lose weight or ensuring they are healthy despite being over average weight, have more pressing immediate concerns, etc.)
[ 11. July 2006, 07:58: Message edited by: migo ]
Posts: 33 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Duchess - you rock. Josephine - you rock too. That's what we like - some rocking chicks.
And if anyone else tells me I have my priorities wrong, I will kill them. With my bare hands. No, I don't have my priorities wrong, I just happen to have different ones from you. They are thought out, considered and chosen. You may have chosen and considered differently, but that doesn't make my choices wrong. I am sure that God has told you what is important for you, and I am damn sure he hasn't told you what is important for me.
And it strikes me that fatness/thinness is also a cultural thing. In some parts of the world, being fat is considered a sign of prosperity. Is it not true that our obsession with people being "normally thin" is really just western culture talling us how we should look?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And if anyone else tells me I have my priorities wrong, I will kill them. With my bare hands.
Or you will just sit on them.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
SC, you rock too!
More anecdotal 'evidence' follows:
Personally I don't find 'healthy cooking and eating' a problem (like I said, it's quantity not quality that's my downfall), at least not since I got divorced from the first Mrs B. Before that, she did all the cooking; before that I was a student and my idea of healthy cooking was either ready meals or some fried mushrooms as 'veg'.
When the first Mrs B left me, I realised I had to learn how to cook and I figured if I was going to have to do it I might as well learn to do it well, so bought a heap of recipe books focussing largely on Mediterranean-style cooking and started cooking from scratch with extra-virgin olive oil, pasta/rice and largely fresh ingredients, all bought in my weekly Sainsbury's shop. I discovered that the resulting meals were comparable in price to the ready-meals and also rarely took more than half an hour to prepare, which suited me as I was out socialising most evenings and didn't have time to waste on cooking.
So I guess it can be done provided you have the right education/info (recipe books in my case) and the right motivation to prioritise it (in my case, a failed marriage and the consequent desire to be 'good' at something). But we are all different and I wouldn't seek to impose my 'eating lifestyle' on anyone else nor censure them for theirs.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And it strikes me that fatness/thinness is also a cultural thing. In some parts of the world, being fat is considered a sign of prosperity.
It is in parts of the world where food is scarce. Obviously. In parts of the world where food is abundant it is a sign of greed or stupidity.
Listen up again, horizontally challenged people. You eat too much. That is because you have too much to eat. If you can't stop eating food, don't buy it. Spend your money on something else like going to the ballet, and then you won't have anything left to spend on food.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
AF Steve - my original post was in response to Genie's saying that cheap cuts of meat tended to be high in fat.
The Food Standards Agency suggests minced beef to contain 10-25% fat, and found up to 32% fat in a survey. That's a lot more than beans, and beef contains mainly saturated fats.
In your part of the world, then minced beef might be an inexpensive, nutritious part of a healthy diet - but plant protein also tends to be nutritious, inexpensive, and a sensible suggestion for people looking to reduce the overall cost of their weekly shop.
I agree that organic fruit & veg are an unnecessary luxury, particularly if you buy the overpriced, overpacked, high-transport-miles stuff in most supermarkets.
Originally posted by Mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Duck:
Non-exercisers will feel threatened by you, regardless of your own behaviour. quote:
Dream on.
To quote Papio:
quote:
Sport = ritual humiliation, getting jeered at by stupid jocks who couldn't pass a proper exam if their lives depended on it, feeling as though you have the worlds worst hangover, getting called a poofter and being beaten up in the shower room. Sweating a lot.
The Gym = largely the same as above, but you pay an obscene amount of money for the privelledge.
Or this, originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Newman's Own - you are most welcome to come down to my local running club track and see all the kids there from the local sink estate who are learning self confidence,
Whoa. I only ever learnt how shit I was at anything physical down on the running track? Self confidence? It shattered what I had.
quote:teamwork
Yes, I'll grant you that. One kid would hold me down in the showers whilst the other kicked my head in.
quote:friendship
Yes indeed; knocking the "weeds" around is so friendly.
quote:a healthy lifestyle
I'm not sure that our national sports obsession is healthy, not socially or mentally, at any rate.
I would never comment unfavourably on someone else's physical appearance, much less hurt anyone just 'cos they aren't good at sport. Having been the overweight clumsy child who got beaten up at school for being crap at sports, and still being dyspraxic, i know how much it hurts. I've already said that i don't think my hobby of running is in any way superior to sci-fi, chess, pub quizzes, or much else you might care to mention.
But just because i enjoy running, & am the sort of shape that tends to go along with that, some people don't seem to have a problem with calling me 'skinny', a 'jock', lumping me in with anyone who bullied them at school, or trotting out all the usual anti-intellectual stereotypes.
All i actually want is to get on with my hobby in peace, and let other people do the same, without anyone hassling me about it - but unfortunately too many non-sporting people seem to assume i'm going to judge them, and get their retaliation in first.
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
We are subjected to a lot of 'healthy' advice. The effect is not so much on behaviour, but on subconscious attitude - like having a horror of sin (well, of sins you don't think you commit).
I think this is it. The secondary issue (in the UK, at least) is the government's moaning about the terrible pressure on the NHS. A few tabloid stories about people who keep getting treated for this and that and the other, but keep smoking 40 a day, or drinking like a fish, or stuffing their face with junk food, and you start telling yourself that it's all because of them that you've been waiting so long for that operation. Suddenly, fat people aren't just hideous lardbuckets, they're stealing your taxes with their selfish gluttony! You've not just got a right to mock and criticise, it's practically your duty! Save the NHS - beat up a fatty today!
Of course, even if they were being deliberately unhealthy, just to spite you, the sums involved are a fraction of a drop in the ocean for the NHS, and there are plenty of other activities that are far more likely to seriously drain public funds, but fat people are soooo easy to identify.
It doesn't make any sense, but it's just too easy for some people to blame everything on "them".
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by migo:
If I'm paying taxes that pay for the medical bills they incurr due to their obesity, it damn well is my business.
The logic there, Migo, would seem to be to move towards a rationing of healthcare where the condition can be proven to be the result of choice on the part of the patient.
A good deal of the discussion on this thread has been about what constitutes 'choice': some saying Yes, you can choose to eat healthy, home-cooked food and/or exercise sufficiently to those pointing out that economically and socially such choices may be a lot more difficult for some that others.
So, firstly, you would have to establish that the condition related directly to choices by the patient (and wasn't, for example, a metabolic disorder), and that they could have done otherwise whatever their social or personal situation.
And then, of course, why stop at food? What about the droves turning up in casualty with injuries from drinking too much on a Saturday night? Never mind the ones who got into a car while intoxicated. And the smokers, of course. And those who engage in sports and injure themselves that way. And then the sufferers from RSI - did they have to take a job which involved continuous computer use? Couldn't they have done something else?
In other words, auditing everyone's life to see how much their present situation is their own fault, is likely to intrusive and highly judgmental - and to what end? Is it not easier to say that the NHS should be like the grace of God, available to all?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
TGG and Firenze are right, Migo. My brother-in-law isn't fat, he's fit, as in sporty fit. He does a lot of sport, some of it extreme, which has landed him in hospital with various broken body parts on at least one occasion. Should he get beaten up or made fun of because his lifestyle from time to time results in him 'bed-blocking' on the NHS? No; you see he doesn't get mocked and sneered at because the general public don't know about his medical treatment; fat people on the other hand do because certain members of the public assume that they are 'wasting' valuable NHS resources.
[Changed 'bits' to 'body parts' because 'bits' sounds rude. Sad, aren't I?]
[ 11. July 2006, 10:38: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Duo,
May I ask you, then, in your capacity as host, to also rule on the vile and numerous comments by Fiddleback and others about "fatties", "slobs', etc.? That's what provoked the comparison to smoking.
Thanks!
As I see it, Golden Key, you have three choices:
- Take it to the Styx
- Take it to Hell; or
- Shrug the "fattie" comments off, with an air of insouciance.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
[ 11. July 2006, 11:10: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
I thought of this thread when I read this in the guardian today
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Very interesting article. Thought-provoking.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duck:
But just because i enjoy running, & am the sort of shape that tends to go along with that, some people don't seem to have a problem with calling me 'skinny', a 'jock', lumping me in with anyone who bullied them at school, or trotting out all the usual anti-intellectual stereotypes.
All i actually want is to get on with my hobby in peace, and let other people do the same, without anyone hassling me about it - but unfortunately too many non-sporting people seem to assume i'm going to judge them, and get their retaliation in first.
It's a testament to my conditioning that I simply can't hear skinny as anything but a compliment! However, you are right of course, you should be able to be who you are without being subject to unfair assumptions. As should we all.
migo: The issue of health is a red herring I'm sure. Firenze, Gumby and Matt have said what I'd have wanted to. In addition I think our perception of overweight has become so skewed that it no longer bears any relation to health. To be anecdotal, I'm 37 and a UK size 14 on the bottom, 16 on top - that is well within the range of normal. No doctor has ever raised my weight as a problem, the only time it was mentioned was to warn me against the very low calorie diet I was following at the time. Yet shop assistants regularly feel entitled to be rude to me because of my 'outsize' shape, and when I go out on my bike it is a regular occurence for someone to comment out loud on the size of my arse, call me a fat c*nt, or otherwise subject me to abuse.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with concern about taxes (or if it does these people have a very unrealistic view of what level of overweight is likely to trouble the NHS)!
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
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Posted
People basically want to be flattered.
We all struggle with things - we all sin, if you will.
Fat people (appear to) embody this struggle with sin.
Therefore, fat people make great scapegoats.
Thinner people feel flattered when standing next to a fat person.
If a fat person gets thinner, or a klutz gets good at sports, or you get good at something that you previously received moral condemnation for being bad at...
That is not very flattering to others.
The people who were previously condemning you can't accuse you of the same thing. Worse, your newfound ability to do X may actually highlight the fact that your accusers haven't actually been doing X themselves - they've just been designating you as the non-X-doer of the group, and having a free ride on your supposed X-related delinquency. Now that you visibly are doing X, you're ruining their whole racket!
They'd better accuse you of being... uh... a self-righteous paragon! Yeah, that sounds good. A self-righteous paragon.
Never mind that you thought you'd please them with all your diligent X-doing. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Meanwhile, all the people who used to be your peer group look down on you too. You Uncle Tom! Obviously you only did it to make them look bad!
People accused you so that they could feel flattered. You changed your ways to gain your fair share of flattery. Now you're not flattering anybody! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) OMG, there's nowhere to go!
Normally, at this point, I'd close with a subtle yet thought-provoking witticism that suggests that there's more to life than maximising my own opportunities to be flattered. But who am I kidding? It's not like I even believe that myself. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
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Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Duo,
May I ask you, then, in your capacity as host, to also rule on the vile and numerous comments by Fiddleback and others about "fatties", "slobs', etc.? That's what provoked the comparison to smoking.
Thanks!
As I see it, Golden Key, you have three choices:
- Take it to the Styx
- Take it to Hell; or
- Shrug the "fattie" comments off, with an air of insouciance.
Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host
I make one tongue-in-cheek reference to "dietism", fiddleback makes a career of insulting people on this thread -with the kind of insults I haven't heard since grade school. Yet my 'dietism" is worth the invocation of Godwin, and your advice to people offended by him/it is "like it or lump it"??
Fiddleback must be a contributor to the organ fund also. How much does it cost to get the "immunity from the hosts" badge?
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Er...matter for the Styx, NP?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
ADMIN MODE
Nonpropheteer, if you want some shore leave, just make another remark like that last one. Otherwise, a review of Commandment 6 is in order.
For everyone, if you don't like what someone posts here, you can debate the point with them, call them to Hell, or you can put on your big girl panties and ignore the person.
If you think the hosts are not handling the thread properly, you can PM a host, start a thread in the Styx, or (once again) you can pull up those big girl panties and get on with your life.
Duo has warned you all about getting overly personal. Keep on ignoring her and I'll be back with more than a warning.
Scot
Member Admin
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Anonymous Lurker Person
Apprentice
# 11642
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Posted
I have been lurking on SOF for quite some time, and I finally feel I need to register and say something in response to this particular thread, which really touched a nerve for me.
I am shocked how readily some people will judge others, without knowing what their story is and what is going on inside them.
I am fat. My BMI is 35.4, which is considered obese. The primary reason for this is that I have binge eating disorder. This disorder is probably more common than you think, because people are ashamed and do not talk about it.
For more information on binge eating disorder, see this page:
http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/binge.htm
Christopher Fairburn has also written some very good books on the subject.
Let me also tell you that what started it for me was dieting. I was on a diet and was highly successful, losing one third of my body weight. Then I started binge eating, eating large amounts of food during out-of-control episodes. Usually these were the precise foods I had been trying to avoid. The trigger for a binge was often breaking one of the rules I had set for myself, as people with binge eating disorder are usually characterized by black-and-white thinking. Then I started binge eating in response to negative emotions. After each binge I would try to be more strict with my eating in order not to gain any weight back. But eventually I couldn’t do it anymore, especially when I started to suffer from severe depression, and now I have gained back all the weight I lose and then some.
I was treated as an outpatient at a psychiatric hospital, but now I am starting to relapse a bit.
If you don’t know what it’s like, please don’t judge. I do not choose to be fat. Do you know what it’s like to hate your body every time you see it? Do you know what it’s like to have to buy your clothes in a special shop? Do you know what it’s like to have strangers make personal comments about your appearance? Do you know what it’s like to know that your chances of jobs or boyfriends are reduced? Do you know what it’s like to have people analyze the contents of your grocery cart, or to wonder why you’re eating what you’re eating? Do you know what it’s like to feel guilty over everything you eat? Do you really think I would choose this?
Posts: 5 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
...and welcome to the Ship.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
Originally posted by Rat: quote:
It's a testament to my conditioning that I simply can't hear skinny as anything but a compliment! However, you are right of course, you should be able to be who you are without being subject to unfair assumptions. As should we all.
It's not so much that i mind exactly what people call me, more that they feel able to talk about what i look like. I don't think it's terribly polite to comment on someone's appearance, even as a compliment - if someone said 'you've got lovely skin', i'd be rather annoyed that they found this more interesting than my cake-baking skills / 10k time / recall of really bad children's jokes / anything else i do of mutual interest, rather than what i just happen to look like through genetics, chance, or an unimportant side-effect of another hobby. It's really rather unpleasant being the subject of jealousy. Going from being an overweight, sedentary teenager to a sports-enthusiast young adult hasn't actually changed who i am how i think, or how i see the world much - but it has changed how people see me, and frustratingly enough then my weight's still an issue, just usually for different people.
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Duck
Shipmate
# 10181
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Posted
sorry, X-post - but Anonymous Lurker Person, , & welcome.
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'Truth is my authority, not authority my truth' - Mary Dyer, Quaker martyr.
Posts: 1014 | From: Lots of planets have a north | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Anonymous Lurker Person,
Welcome aboard and that's a brave thoughtful first post which bodes well.
There is a lot of support around the Ship for people with just about any problem (see All Saints) and we aren't all horrid and judgemental, not all the time, but Purgatory is a pretty robust place. If people do get out of order then the Hosts and Admin's do step in but they aren't moderators so anything can and does get posted.
Hope you enjoy yourself here.
[edit: x-p]
[ 11. July 2006, 14:40: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous Lurker Person:
Do you really think I would choose this?
I very much doubt that anyone who actually thinks would would think that......
Welcome to the ship. That was one of the best first posts I have seen in a long time.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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