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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Incense and thuribles
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I can't believe I started this thread!!
So what do people think of 360* swings then?
When should they be done?
I've only seen this done to get the coals burning hot.
The most incense I have ever seen used at a Mass was at Prinknash Abbey. They had a giant thurible, like Foucault's Pendulum, going in front of the altar and used a smaller thurible to incense the altar, the celebrant and so on.
The incense - Basilica from recollection - filled the entire church. At one stage, the smoke threatened to hide the celebrant entirely from view...
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
Our deacon did a 360° while preparing for the Great Vigil of Easter. Unfortunately, the chain wrapped around his little finger and broke it. He was not a very happy camper during that looong service.
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Transplanted from a new thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
quote:
From the blessing of incense at the Ofertory:
Through the intercession of Blessed Michael, the Archangel, who standeth at the right hand of the altar of incense, and of all his elect, may the Lord voucjsafe to + bless this incense, and receive it as a sweet-smelling savour.
...or something like that anyway, I couldn't find it on google, so went off memory.
The problem is, it isn't a sweet-smelling savour.
I was recently appointed Sacristan, and thought I'd get the sacristy in order. Among the things I did was to arrange the incense that we had in some sort of seasonal arrangement so that it wasn't a case of 'what thurifer fancies today'.
We had 'Gums of Arabia', which I kept for the rest of Ordinary Time; 'Basilica', which was the nicesat of the lot, which I kept for Easter, and some other not quite so nice stuff (unlabelled), that I thought would be appropriate for Lent.
Now last night, we reverted to the Lenten scent, and after the Gospel, I swiftly made my way to the sacristy to change to Basilica, as it was absolutely vile. As Fr Degs pointed out, it smelt of Harpic.
Now although we aren't a rich parish, I have a bit of leeway when it comes to buying stuff like this.
So...
What's decent? What do you use for the various seasons. I'm guessing some version of Rose for Feasts of Our Lady, 'Three Kings' for Epiphany, 'Pontifical' for Pontifical visits (though it is sickly sweet).
I'd like some ideas for Lent especially, and perhaps Easter. What do you think is seasonally neutral enough to be used in Ordinary Time, but not disgusting at the same time?
Please help.
Thanks,
AD x
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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boyinthebands
Shipmate
# 4040
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Posted
quote:
What do you think is seasonally neutral enough to be used in Ordinary Time, but not disgusting at the same time?
How does plain frankincense fit?
Ascension-ite mentions it above -- and surely A and St. A in Our Fair City would know.
We don't use incense in our church but every Ethiopian and Eritrean business in the neighborhood has a tabletop censor happily smoking away, and so you get to appreciate the fragrance.
Posts: 170 | From: Washington DC USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Frankincense is very pungent. That isn't to say it's a bad thing. But I'm just thinking of when it would be appropriate for. Were you suggesting it for Lent?
AD x
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boyinthebands
Shipmate
# 4040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
Frankincense is very pungent. That isn't to say it's a bad thing. But I'm just thinking of when it would be appropriate for. Were you suggesting it for Lent?
AD x
The manager at our local Eastern Church goods house (Icon and Book Service) noted that they carry three grades of frankincense and that some people prefer one over the other, but for the life of me, I can't say why. Perhaps the more expensive ones are more mellow, richer.
Something I neglected to mention earlier is that we get incense in worship from no doing of our own. We rent the fellowship hall (undercroft) to an Eritrean Coptic church which (in theory) finishes as we begin. But sometimes they run over and we get a dose of frankincense from below, just in time for the first hymn.
The parishoners have complained about having to share a building (noise, full corridors, leaving hunks of the antidoron to mummify, etc.) but so far not a complaint about the smoke, which I assume gets to us filtered.
But then again, I like myrrh (and a pint of bitter) and I don't have experience with the other incenses mentioned.
Posts: 170 | From: Washington DC USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
Degs,
I have never had a problem getting Three Kings...It's as common as dirt around here.
By the way, Do most of you use a brand straight out of the box? In our parish we concoct our own blend, not from scratch, but rather from a mixture of several commercially available ones. That way we can control the burning rate a little better and the scent is rather nice too.
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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diapason
Apprentice
# 4230
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Posted
My first post - be gentle with me.... ![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif)
We have a well-kitted out incense cupboard, but none of it (including Priory, Basilica, or indeed any of the Prinknashes & Eveshams)smells to me like good old fashioned proper stuff, with the exception of a tiny box of 'Prinknash Incense' (no subtype specified)I bought years ago at Prinknash. Is it just me, or does anyone know what I mean?
The Faith House bookshop in Tufton St London does orthodox incense in all sorts of exotic hues (rose, lemon geranium, amber, cypress etc) but it's expensive. We use quite a bit of it in mixtures, but still not quite 'right'.
Posts: 40 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2003
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
We've decided I hope that 360 degree swings with the thurible are definitely out?
Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
The Voice of Moderation
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
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Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
Diapason writes
quote:
The Faith House bookshop in Tufton St London does orthodox incense in all sorts of exotic hues (rose, lemon geranium, amber, cypress etc) but it's expensive. We use quite a bit of it in mixtures, but still not quite 'right'.
If it's what I think it is it comes in a small plastic box - the incense take the form of small extruded forms?
We used it from time to time in my last parish - important that you use very little of it in the thurible. Cut the bits into even smaller bits - it's nice when it's used in small amounts. Too much and its awfully overpowering and sickeningly sweet.
Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
The problem with the Orthodox stuff is that it can be a bit slow to get going. Sometimes one does not get a decent amount of smoke until almost the end of the censing of the altar. This may be due to the large chunks. I have tried breaking them up into smaller bits but they are very hard!
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
Sorry to double post-
Degs,
I PMed you. Check your messages.
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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boyinthebands
Shipmate
# 4040
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Posted
This Three Kings incense -- I think I bought some tonight. In an Arab grocery in the suburbs. (With a nice box of tea, a jar of tahini, a mango -- and a roll of charcoal.)
It is a small pack -- plastic and sealed, and the package looks curiously like a packet of peanuts.
"circa 30 g" for $1.99 -- which seems high. It is made in Holland.
Is this the stuff?
Stuck the pack on my flatbed scanner
Posts: 170 | From: Washington DC USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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stbruno
Shipmate
# 3505
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Posted
sure is..though you have a domestic size pack...not the church size jumbo box. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 157 | From: sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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boyinthebands
Shipmate
# 4040
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Posted
Thanks! Perhaps its for a house church!
(if I had about $40 to spare, I would have gotten another product there -- a rather strange looking electric incense burner. Runs on 110 V. Nifty, if a potiental fire hazard.)
Posts: 170 | From: Washington DC USA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
I know there was a thread that where someone asked advice about cleaning a thurible that had got to a terrible state.
I cannot currently find the thread, and have found myself ina similar situation, having inherited a thurbible that was about to go, a delightful thurifer last Sunday, decided to leave the lit charcoal in the thurible after Mass, thus melting all of the the resin build-up in the lid. This proceeded to leak out of the thurible, and has now solidified.
I recall that the advice given last time round was to boil it for a few hours (which, I imagine can be most aromatic), but after I have done this, what is the best method of keeping it clean? Are there any particular products, which, if used regularly, can avoid such a build-up recurring?
Do tell.
Thanks, AD x
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
AD, I suggest you get in touch with Ultraspike.
If I recall correctly, 'twas she who provided the answer as to how to clean a thoroughly gunked up thurible. I have a feeling that acetone and/or blow torches came into it somewhere, but can't remember enough of the detail to be much help.
As a matter of interest, can one line the dish that the coals and the incense go in with tinfoil to prevent the resin solidifying and making a dreaful mess?
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
AD,
As a matter of interest, can one line the dish that the coals and the incense go in with tinfoil to prevent the resin solidifying and making a dreaful mess?
Usually I have to line it with tinfoil so that the build-up of gunk in the bottom of the bowl does not impede my smoking...
Posts: 241 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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Ultraspike
Incensemeister
# 268
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Posted
Acetone is the best for cleaning incense resin. Lining it with aluminum foil helps keep down the resin, but some always remains on the bottom. If you have a removable coal container you can turn that upside down over the flames for a few minutes to burn out most of it and then rinse out the residue with water or acetone.
Some people immerse the whole thurible in acetone but that seems abit extreme unless it's really caked with resin. I usually pour a few ounces of acetone into the bottom and then soak a paper towel and wipe the inside and outside, not forgetting the chains which get very sticky also. Use latex gloves for this since the acetone is quite irritating to the skin.
I have also heard of people boiling the thurible in water but that takes much longer and doesn't work as well.
If you really want to be au naturel you can use olive oil but that takes alot of rubbing to work well.
You should also polish the outside occasionally since the acetone or whatever you use will dull the finish somewhat.
A clean thurible is essential to pleasant smelling smoke. The leftover resin that burns will overpower the fragrance of the incense and is no doubt the reason many people hate incense.
Happy smoking!
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A cowgirl's work is never done.
Posts: 2732 | From: NYC | Registered: May 2001
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GeoffH
Shipmate
# 133
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by boyinthebands:
"circa 30 g" for $1.99 -- which seems high. It is made in Holland.
Is this the stuff?
One does assume we are talking about incense and not some other material that comes from Holland and also has an exotic smell. Good for asthmatics I hear.
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Geoff H - an unreconstructed proddy
Posts: 305 | From: UK | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Here is Tat Tip of the Week , which unfortunately does not have the original discussion which included the use of a blow torch.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.
Raspberry Rabbit. Be careful with the Orthodox incense. It's very strong stuff and you don't need much of it to get a powerful effect. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mrs Toad
Shipmate
# 2883
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Posted
We want to make our own. Has anyone done so? How?
360s are obligatory in any church larger than a shoe box.
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Here to-day, up and off to somewhere else to-morrow! Travel, change, interest, excitement! The whole world before you, and a horizon that's always changing!
Posts: 136 | From: London | Registered: May 2002
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Thank you all for your helpful replies.
Regarding use of acetone, would I be able to purchase this from a hardware store as such, or am I after the old fashioned nail-polish-remover?
Thanks.
We use Basilica during Ordinary Time. I like it.
During Easter, we use 'Gloria', which is sweet but very subtle, and so allows for delightful things like the Orthodox 'Gardenia' to be added to it, without them overpowering the Faithful.
Lent and Passiontide get 'Evesham', while Christmass and Epiphany get 'Three Kings'.
Advent and Feasts of Our Lady get 'Gloria' mixed with the Orthodox 'Rose'.
AD x
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Ultraspike
Incensemeister
# 268
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Posted
You can buy acetone at most hardware stores, at least in these parts. Nail polish remover is acetone, usually, but you'll pay alot more to buy it that way.
Anyone wishing to know how to make incense may PM me. We make ours and it is a bit of a process, but I think it's much better than the commercial brands, which are usually nauseatingly sweet, IMHO. Finding the right ingredients is the hardest part, and then getting the right blend is also tricky, but well worth the effort.
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A cowgirl's work is never done.
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Intrepid Thurifer
Shipmate
# 77
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Posted
You can also use Mineral Turpentine to remove the resin. A plastic scourer soaked in mineral turpentine will also get rid of the hard bits as well. I cleaned a thurible that was caked with years of resin this way.
Posts: 142 | From: Melbourne Australia | Registered: May 2001
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raphael
Shipmate
# 4377
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Posted
You get 3 types of thurifers. Ones that go wild and 360 all the way down the aisle, just about hot-box the church and cling like the bells of Canterbury Cathedral.
Then there is the kind that hold the thurible half way down the chains and hardly swing it at all, with one or two wisps of smoke because Father has smothered the one or two cold coals.
Then you get the mid-way thurifer.
Which do you prefer?
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Host Mobcap ON
Welcome to the Ship, -blood-and-fire-, and especially to MW. Glad to have you aboard.
If you haven't already poked around and discovered the FAQs and the 10 Commandments , you'll want to take a look at them just to get an idea of how things work.
Host Mobcap OFF
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Thanks to all for your replies.
I was unable to obtain any pure acetone, only the diluted stuff in the form of old-fashioned nail polish remover.
However, Father was able to produce some ethanol, which did the trick.
Now to find the Brasso.
Thanks again. xxx
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf
Ship's curiosity
# 1283
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Posted
I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!
This evening at mass they burnt the oils. In. The. Thurible. AAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
There were orange FLAMES going a couple of inches out of the bowl. The chains are smoke-blacked, as is the lid.
I'm cleaning it on Saturday. AghAghAgh!!
Anyone got a blowtorch I can borrow?
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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."
Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Did The Boy allow this to happen JTO-D? If so, things are worse than we thought.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Degs:
AD and I concur on the following advice:
take the thurible and hit the celebrant with it repeatedly, then strangle said celebrant with the chains.
Finally flame the celebrant with the blowtorch! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Gives a new meaning to 'flaming'does it not ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
These things happen in even the best-ordered churches which have no more than two lights upon the Holy Table
That's why liturgy is such fun.....
But I'm sure this would never have happened in HH Mar Adrian 1's private chapel ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Panis Angelicus
Shipmate
# 3795
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Posted
Jellied methylene chloride does a very nice job of removing thurible gunk.
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"Was there any difficulty in the Bishop's putting his hand in your bosom, arising from the fashion of your dress?"--Trial of Bishop Onderdonk of New York, 1844, p. 62.
Posts: 406 | From: New York City | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sacristan
Shipmate
# 3548
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Posted
Next time suggest that the oils be consumed in the sanctuary lamps. If not, perhaps you can pour the oils on the clergy and make "living flames". Think...How dramatic! For all those persons who think symbols need to be bold...How perfect! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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More abomination, more abomination
Posts: 1008 | From: West of Gotham | Registered: Nov 2002
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Ultraspike
Incensemeister
# 268
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Posted
Why did they burn the oils? Is this what you do with leftover chrism and oil of catechumens? I've never thought about what happens to the old stock when the new is brought in. What do other people do with them? I guess you can't pour them down the piscina as that would cause a clog. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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A cowgirl's work is never done.
Posts: 2732 | From: NYC | Registered: May 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
Morning all!
Yes US,
The remaining Sacred Oils are properly consumed with fire when the new ones arrive from the Chrism Mass. I have known this to be done in the Easter Vigil fire (without ceremony), but like the preparation of the Lenten ashes from the previous year's palm crosses, this is a practival thing that needn't have any ceremony attached to it, and can easily be done in a bowl at home.
AD x
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
We now burn the 'old' oils during Holy Week before the new bottles are collected from the the Cathedral on Maundy Thursday.
It started a few years ago when several years worth of oils were discovered in a cupboard (not the approved place!!). There was so much that we had a mass burning on cotton wool in a biscuit-tin in the churchyard. (It took about an hour on a cold night!). Since then we have experimented with various ways, but have usually had to resort to the biscuit-tin, which hardly seems liturgical!
On a trip to the British Museum (before a London Meet at the Museum Tavern, as it happens!) I found I could buy a replica 'roman' oil-lamp in the gift shop - about £8. We have used it successfully this year, burning during services either on the nave altar or at the foot of a large wooden cross, and have properly disposed of all the oils before today. The only problem is that it seems to burn down the wick as well - I shall have to find a replacement for next year or manufacture something out of cotton wool!
If anyone wants details, please pm or email me. I think the museum runs a website/mail order service. Failing that I could pop in next time I am at a London Meet and 'bulk-buy!
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf
Ship's curiosity
# 1283
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Did The Boy allow this to happen JTO-D? If so, things are worse than we thought.
I am, of course, no longer at St Boy's, being now ensconsed at DOD's church (see 'location' ).
I have just seen the thurible and am grieving ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) . A trip to B&Q (hardware store) is going to be in order, methinks.
They have apparently done this with the leftover oils since time immemorial. This might explain the state of the thurible when we got here...
Next year I will gently suggest taking the inner bowl OUT of the thurible, lining it with tinfoil and putting it on a biscuit-tin lid.
You don't want to know what the inside of the lid looks like...
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"There is a divine discontent which has always helped to better things."
Posts: 1123 | From: Floating in the blue | Registered: Sep 2001
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raphael
Shipmate
# 4377
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Posted
Please could you give me your comments on BOAT BOYS.
Are they a must?? I find them a bit of a pain. 6 or 7 year old boys can't sit still for more than 5 minutes (right?) and the thurifer spends most of his time keeping the boat boy in order.
I tried to get an older boy (10) to be boat but our rector had a cow and said "there will be no ship boys in this parish."
If there is no boat boy, I carry the boat against my chest with thurible in other hand. When loading the thurible I GIVE the boat to the celebrant to hold. Then at least I can concentrate on tending the thurible and not tending the boat boy!
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It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should, at all times and in all places give thanks unto thee, O Lord, Holy Father, Almighty, Everlasting God.
Posts: 168 | From: South Africa | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ethel Sludge
Shipmate
# 74
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Posted
For what it's worth, my son, bane of pious old ladies' devotions and recipeint of dozens of filthy glares every Sunday became a boat boy at the age of 5. Whenever on duty, he desisted from fidgeting and took things very seriously. When back in the pews, he carried on as usual. If he wasn't a server now he is his teens, I doubt that he would be such a willing churchgoer or that he would have the faith he has.
Posts: 131 | Registered: May 2001
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Saint Osmund
Pontifex sariburiensis
# 2343
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Posted
I agree with Ethel Sludge.
I find boat bearers (not necessarily boys!) abit of a hassle as well, and admittedly, they are unnecesary. However, this is one of the many opportunities we have to highlight the accessibility of the liturgy to little people, without doing the most abominable cheesey things that one so often sees in our churches, and to be honest, is the sort of patronising nonsense that often later puts them off church.
It is also a good way to get younger servers accustomed to the preparations for Mass, and correct conduct in the sanctuary, before giving them too many duties.
We have recently had the prospect of three new young servers, and although having a boat bearere is noyt the norm for us, I think I shall employ them as such for a while, and then move them onto other things. Of course, we will need a patient thurifer to take them under wing and guide them. Shame we don't have more patient servers who are willing to welcome newer, less experienced servers. Then people complain about shortages.
Oh and BTW, if there is no boat bearer, you hand the boat to the Deacon, not the Celebrant. If no Deacon is present, it is perfectly possible to manage both thurible and boat in a dignified and safe manner.
RC x
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