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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Styx: Rook - Could it be true? hell thread
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Triskelion, perhaps?
I'll watch the experiment with interest, but I wonder what it will provide in the way of less-painful instruction that isn't already possible through the private messaging system. I don't really expect the objects of attention to be more open to any public forum than they would be to a well-crafted PM.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
What happens if the person who's been challenged to a duel under your system refuses to show up?
The same that happens to a person who's been called to Hell and refuses to show up. I suggest that after a suitable time the thread is closed. (And thus in principle someone else can try to challenge the same coward.)
Since apparently a duel board is in the cards, it's fun to think about the name. "Acheron" is not bad, but then perhaps simply "Vestibule" (of Hell), which is how Dante calls this side of the Acheron where the Uncomitted race around:
quote:
Strange utterances, horrible pronouncements,
accents of anger, words of suffering,
and voices shrill and faint, and beating hands -
all went to make a tumult that will whirl
forever through that turbid, timeless air,
like sand that eddies when a whirlwind swirls.
I think "Dueling Ground" or "Field of Honor" are better place names than "Arena", but perhaps too long and bland. David and Goliath apparently battled in the "Valley of Elah". How about "Duel & Duality" after the Blackadder episode (in which Blackadder famously says "A man may fight for many things: his country, his principles, his friends, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn!")?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
We tried duels once in Hell some years ago - I can't remember when, exactly - after IngoB had been saying in the Styx that we ought to have a one-to-one method of solving disputes, following a Hell call where the peanut gallery had got too involved. He then invented a rule system for it and it was tried out. It starred IngoB v someone else, both had picked seconds, and it got complicated enough for all the contestants to slip up and was then abandoned as a general principle.
I remember it because I somehow ended up as the referee. (And I think Rat was the girl selling oranges at the interval.) The duel idea is not new.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Since "gauntlet" can mean facing many foes, how about something even less tasteful, like "arena"? I'll open a new purpose-built board and we can muse about the particulars then (after I finish this pesky CAD model and start the FEA grinding).
Lion's Den would be in keeping with the general theme of the boards. In its original meaning, anyway.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
... it got complicated enough for all the contestants to slip up and was then abandoned as a general principle.
This is exactly what seems to me to make the idea unworkable. It will require more steps than a Renaissance court dance.
Part of what makes the Ship work as well as it generally does is the simplicity of the User's Manual.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
What happens if the person who's been challenged to a duel under your system refuses to show up?
The same that happens to a person who's been called to Hell and refuses to show up. I suggest that after a suitable time the thread is closed. (And thus in principle someone else can try to challenge the same coward.)
...
But if only the caller, the called and the seconds are allow to post on the duel thread and one of them doesn't turn up - because they are a cad and a bounder, obviously - then aren't you going to get the online equivilent of someone howling at the moon? Ho hum.
Tubbs
[ 12. October 2010, 21:00: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I can't help but think Ingo's dueling board will be like the cupholder in a friend's Mercedes.
It is so elegant--you open a richly burled panel, push a lovely chrome button and thanks to a number of cams, gears and springs it almost looks as if the hand of a butler is reaching out to hold your drink. One feels so pampered.
It is a thing of beauty. Pity that it won't hold cups...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Belisarius
Lord Bountiful of Admin (Emeritus) Delights
# 32
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Posted
Some points (with the assumption the current Hell Board wouldn't be available):
- No sane person would willingly host a board allowing a malicious poster to play games for many times longer than on the current Hell board (and the board would need hosting of some sort).
- Posters either not confident of holding their own against a disingenuous, fluent troll, who have too much going on IRL to wait around, or who simply would get fed up with not having their say would just be out of luck, I guess.
- If the posters are in different time zones, the process would be even more tediously drawn-out.
If the current Hell board stays, I believe the proposed board completely unnecessary for many of the reasons already posted.
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Animals may be Evolution's Icing, but Bacteria are the Cake.
Andrew Knoll
Posts: 8080 | From: New York | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It starred IngoB v someone else, both had picked seconds, and it got complicated enough for all the contestants to slip up and was then abandoned as a general principle.
That's not how I remember it ending. Well, more precisely, I don't really remember how it went, but I'm pretty sure I would remember if it ended up in a mess.
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
This is exactly what seems to me to make the idea unworkable. It will require more steps than a Renaissance court dance.
Only two people are required. The challenger must open the duel thread, explicitly naming the challenged (presumably a PM would be a good idea). The challenged must respond by joining the thread. Then the duel is already on. If you like it simple, just don't ask for seconds.
If one wants seconds, they can be acquired any time later: either by inviting someone per PM, or by making an open call to the public for support. In the former case, the second simply starts posting at some point (presumably by saying something like "I've been invited by..."). In the latter case, I would say one is stuck with whichever Shipmate reacts first and joins as second one one's side.
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But if only the caller, the called and the seconds are allow to post on the duel thread and one of them doesn't turn up - because they are a cad and a bounder, obviously - then aren't you going to get the online equivilent of someone howling at the moon? Ho hum.
Again, seconds are allowed, not required. If the challenged doesn't show up, he or she doesn't show up. That's all there is to it. Just as it is in Hell now, in fact. Howling at the moon might be more fun in a choir, but other than that there is no difference. Though concerning Hell a coward can always claim that he sees no point in facing a mob. This is not a workable excuse for a duel...
[ 12. October 2010, 21:23: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Only two people are required.
The challenger must open the duel thread, explicitly naming the challenged
(presumably a PM would be a good idea).
The challenged must respond by joining the thread.
Then the duel is already on.
If you like it simple, just don't ask for seconds.
If one wants seconds, they can be acquired any time later:
either by inviting someone per PM, or by making an open call to the public for support.
In the former case, the second simply starts posting at some point
(presumably by saying something like "I've been invited by...").
In the latter case, I would say one is stuck with whichever Shipmate reacts first and joins as second one one's side.
Damn these instructions....I think they’ve left out one of the screws...
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
Welcome to the Thunderdome.....
Two shippies enter, one shippie leaves
starring RooK as Blaster, Erin as Tina Turner and me as the anonymous extra who gets squished beneath a futuristic vehicle in an amusing way.
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Hi Bel.
Long time no see.
[Hi, Tortuf--had some vacations, etc. recently but otherwise have been around since RooK's Heaven thread--admittedly mostly lurking.]
[ 13. October 2010, 03:04: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Lion's Den would be in keeping with the general theme of the boards. In its original meaning, anyway.
How about Jacob's Tent?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Sorry, I can't resist!
I suggest The Brig.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Welcome back, any chance of the summary rule or guideline I asked you about ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Only two people are required.
The challenger must open the duel thread, explicitly naming the challenged
(presumably a PM would be a good idea).
The challenged must respond by joining the thread.
Then the duel is already on.
If you like it simple, just don't ask for seconds.
If one wants seconds, they can be acquired any time later:
either by inviting someone per PM, or by making an open call to the public for support.
In the former case, the second simply starts posting at some point
(presumably by saying something like "I've been invited by...").
In the latter case, I would say one is stuck with whichever Shipmate reacts first and joins as second one one's side.
Who keeps the minutes?
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
.... a dueling board....
Oh I get it. We only have Hell now, but we will have a Bloody Hell once the board construction is complete.
May I suggest 'Gargoyle Alley' as name please because, well, the whole thing seem rather Harry Potterish.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The challenged must respond by joining the thread.
No dice. There will be no board, ever, where someone is required to participate by simply being invoked. End of story.
And you're gonna cut this "coward" shit out right now. I don't want to see it again in reference to people who wouldn't play in your theoretical sandbox.
[ 12. October 2010, 23:35: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
My "alternative Hell" idea worked rather well, IIRC. However, that could well have been an artifact of the novelty and the people involved. (RuthW needed to argue for my position, how could that not end up being entertaining?)
I'm still in therapy for that.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Sorry, I can't resist!
I suggest The Brig.
I'm glad you hadn't swallowed a new password. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
I see a problem with a new dueling board. It could become a lookie see how many notches I have in my belt board.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Frankly, I don't see how any duel is ever going to come to an end. Imagine that one takes on a troll (or simulated troll-like substance), for instance. Not a good idea. The troll is bound to have greater staying power than any normal person because he simply yells louder, longer, and without any restraint of logic.
You think you can touch him? Remember that there is nothing to compel him to admit a "touch" or even a wound to the death, no matter how obvious it may be to the entire silently watching Ship. You can smash him to the floor with your pithy observations and clever repartee and he will simply ignore you and post a reply to what he WISHES you said.
And he'll get away with it. There is no peanut gallery to beat the truth into him en masse--just you and perhaps your second. There is no judge of the duel. As I understand it, he who posts last, laughs.
So what will happen IMHO is that the idiot with the greater lung capacity will go on and on and ON and ON ... until the other person gives up in disgust and decides to get a life. Whereupon the jackass/troll/idiot (cheerful little prophet, aren't I?) will crow on its own dunghill about having "won" the duel. It'll be enough to make me want to crawl through my keyboard and punch his lights out.
I mean, think it out. Which of you would care to face in eternal single debate a poster such as our (shudder) illustrious _______, or the ever-annoying ___________, or worst of all, the master of obfuscation and just plain pigheadedness, M'sieur ________________?
And if you all can't automatically fill in certain Shipmate names while reading that, I will conclude that there is no need for Hell, let alone a dueling board.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Liberty
ship's football fanatic
# 713
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Posted
Logic says we only need this new duelling system if the old system is flawed.
If the old system is flawed it's because the mean and incompetent H&As let dog-piling and bullying occur. After all if they were nice and better they'd stop it from happening/punish people who did it.
So, great, a new system. Yay! Well, even in the duelling system, one person could still bully another. So we need people to oversee it and make it fair and happy. Who will do that?
The current H&As will do it. But wait, they're incompetent and mean. Oh noes. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Their decisions will be at times, by the very nature of what they're deciding, somewhat subjective (what counts as bullying? etc.). So the people that still think the H&As are so very awful will still think the H&As are so very awful.
If there's a problem, this doesn't solve it.
And if you think there's a problem with what the H&As allow, you have 4 options:
1) Give some actual evidence to them in the hope they might change.
2) Leave.
3) Suck it up and stay.
4) Get some perspective
The only thing I am still confused about is why on earth the H&As do what they do for us on a volunteer basis, reading every last word written here and put up with the ridiculous criticisms.
Liberty
[ 13. October 2010, 04:03: Message edited by: Liberty ]
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"I'ma be what I set out to be, without a doubt, undoubtedly"
Posts: 1879 | From: SW2 to 20009 | Registered: Jul 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Sorry for the delay; our little Nazgûl got sick and needed to be rescued from daycare. Then more life happened; you know how it goes.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It starred IngoB v someone else, both had picked seconds, and it got complicated enough for all the contestants to slip up and was then abandoned as a general principle.
That's not how I remember it ending. Well, more precisely, I don't really remember how it went, but I'm pretty sure I would remember if it ended up in a mess.
Ariel was pretty close. It wasn't a mess, though, just a technical failure. The hypothesis was that it could address a conflict with less "heat" (if I recall the jargon we used at the time), but what we actually saw was that the rows of clench-jawed spectators had significantly-increased bile that needed to be poured out in a separate comments thread. Which, really, mostly just vindicated the current Hell model.
Which is why I think I was pretty specific about this concept being in addition to the current boards - Hell is staying, as is. If this new type of venue is something some of you would like to engage with, it seemed reasonable to see if such an addition could have benefits.
In the mean time, many people have pointed out some additional excellent criticisms. Like the fact that this could be, in fact, a bully's wet dream. Minor things like being right and being considerate and being honest will generally be totally destroyed by an opponent armed entirely with superior rhetoric and simple bloody-mindedness. Likewise, poster children for Dunning-Kruger bias will tend to hammer down timid savants. The sense of injustice might be repulsive to many.
So at this point, I'm pretty curious about who's actually interested in signing up for this experiment to show us how a "Fight Club" board could be a good thing.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Liberty: quote:
The only thing I am still confused about is why on earth the H&As do what they do for us on a volunteer basis, reading every last word written here and put up with the ridiculous criticisms.
They do it for the chocolate.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
. Like the fact that this could be, in fact, a bully's wet dream.
Yes, ditto trolls and attention whores. quote:
Minor things like being right and being considerate and being honest will generally be totally destroyed by an opponent armed entirely with superior rhetoric and simple bloody-mindedness
... and too much time on their hands.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Some of us are lazy gits and can't be bothered to form our own Hell call but happy to support someone else who does.
The happiness of the lazy gits to pile in and support someone who makes a Hell call should be recognised for what it is- they just want to cause distress.
Oh Puh-lease. First of all, in view of what you dish out in Hell on occasions, I find your concern for the distress of others utterly disingenuous. And here we have just another example of you claiming to know the motives behind people's postings when you have repeatedly insisted – how many times, O Lord? - that we can't know you from the content of your postings.
Louise has said this far more ably than I, but what we seem to be getting here is that people seem to want to claim the right to annoy others but then want to cry 'foul' when others express their annoyance. The more people you've annoyed, apparently, the more entitled you are to immunity from any comeback.
There have been long and painful rows centring on genuine and profound differences (usually over subjects now confined to Dead Horses) some of which have resulted in valued shipmates storming from the ship. In those cases, finding yourself in a minority can be genuinely painful - but I think most of us respect that. Most things Hellish nowadays seem to centre on how people express their opinions. For example, Yorick, you got a pasting recently for comments made to a childless shipmate. You had a point, but the way you expressed it made it an issue. I wonder who was the most distressed during that encounter?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
Is anyone actually going to post some evidence which stands up, or link to a thread where they can point to posts which crossed a line? If we're talking about a serious chronic problem, how hard can it be?
I have only one word to say: auger. But the world didn't end.
But in terms of what you are talking about, Louise, then no, I can't. Generally the sort of twassock that gets enough people angry to pile in has both a thick skin and the ability to defend themselves.
quote:
What I find amazing is that people complain Hell is too mean, an admin actually acts when someone badly misuses Hell for their own mean gratification, and guess what, the admin gets pilloried.
It takes some doing to get planked from Hell - but if you had to pick a text-book example what it takes to be a jerk, then that was undoubtedly it. RooK was spot on. He gave Evensong a chance to recant or shut up or ... Her choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Rook: In the mean time, many people have pointed out some additional excellent criticisms. Like the fact that this could be, in fact, a bully's wet dream. Minor things like being right and being considerate and being honest will generally be totally destroyed by an opponent armed entirely with superior rhetoric and simple bloody-mindedness. Likewise, poster children for Dunning-Kruger bias will tend to hammer down timid savants. The sense of injustice might be repulsive to many.
The cynical might be tempted to apply this criticism to Hell, too. But Hell works. So let's keep it.
Dear IngoB and his rules. Sometimes I think he missed his calling working as a neuroscientist. He should be a tax lawyer or a specialist in common law title to real property.
Anyway, I have a refinement. The caller must post an application in Hell addressed to the HellHost of his/her choice, entitled "Gauntlet: xxx is a yyy" setting out the usual gripes, nominating seconds and crucially inviting comment on the proposed duel. That will be good for some non-innocent entertainment...er, venting and should flush out the offender. The nominated HellHost then decides whether the duel goes ahead.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm pretty dubious about this proposed experiment, but I suppose if some Shipmates want to sign up to be "knights" and go in for this kind of "jousting", (as appears to be the case) that is a matter for them. Erin must be right - any ideas of compulsion to play are basically just loathsome, as are any implications of cowardice on the part of those who don't want to play.
Clearly there are some pretty sharp disagreements already, even over the question of whether this new board has any merit it all? Personally, I very much doubt that it has any merit. Erin's post (and RooK's latest post) have helped me, though. It is possible my doubts may be further allayed by seeing the new Board guidelines (which clearly will need to be different from those for Hell) and any further policies (such as no compulsion) which Admin might want to spell out.
Such a paradox. A proposal to do away with an unproven criticism of communal verbal bullying by dogpiling - and yet IngoB, it's most eloquent supporter comes out with a bullying rule to start with! "You vill take part!". That's just nonsense. No wonder there is concern about this becoming a bully's wet dream.
Come off it, IngoB! You need to do better than that. Otherwise this experiment to test a proposal shows every sign of dying before birth. Under the weight of the internal contradictions of the proposal, as currently conceived.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
No dice. There will be no board, ever, where someone is required to participate by simply being invoked. End of story.
What I meant to say is that the challenge is simply taken up by responding on the thread, rather than anything more complicated. I did not mean that one is somehow compelled to respond.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And you're gonna cut this "coward" shit out right now. I don't want to see it again in reference to people who wouldn't play in your theoretical sandbox.
Within Styx, as you wish. Within the duel board itself this would be normal though.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
So at this point, I'm pretty curious about who's actually interested in signing up for this experiment to show us how a "Fight Club" board could be a good thing.
Beats me. But it warms one's heart to see how this community gets so unrestful when the status quo is threatened. Well, scratched. Uhh, lightly brushed? Anyway, personally I think a bit of experimentation would do the place good. If this idea fails (and it was not me who dragged it up from the dregs of time, incidentally), I'm sure others have others. Perhaps just open an experimental board section and, you know, have some fun?
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Dear IngoB and his rules. Sometimes I think he missed his calling working as a neuroscientist. He should be a tax lawyer or a specialist in common law title to real property.
My coffee machine is more complicated than the proposed duel board.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
My coffee machine is more complicated than the proposed duel board.
Making coffee is more complicated and has more variables than I suspected. So I'm certain you are right.
I still suspect that you'd have a natural aptitude for tax law though.
[ 13. October 2010, 07:00: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
You need a simpler to operate coffee machine then.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The problem with having a board like this to deal with those who are breaking rules across the other boards, or dancing on the edge of rules (which is why a goodly number of those called to Hell are called there), is that if you make the rules such many people find them difficult to understand, you're leaving them open to wilful misinterpretation by those who choose to do so. And you think those trolls, suspected sockpuppets or crusaders who choose to ignore the normal rules are going to follow your rules? Why?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
IngoB, it's most eloquent supporter comes out with a bullying rule to start with! "You vill take part!"
Except that I had already posted that the only thing that happens if someone doesn't take part is that they don't take part. I said so more than once. I did not change my mind, I simply expressed myself badly one time.
Now, I remember this duel stuff to be quite fun and I think it has potential. However, if it doesn't see the light of day, I don't particularly care!
What I do care about though, a lot, is this "end of the world" vibe whenever there is a suggestion of anything new. I challenge the very assumption that I have to defend this down to the last detail.
If you think it's fuck, dump it. If you think it could be fun, try it. And the world will not end in either case. I'm sitting on academic committees that are more open and flexible than this, and that is saying something...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What I meant to say is that the challenge is simply taken up by responding on the thread, rather than anything more complicated. I did not mean that one is somehow compelled to respond.
Then you still haven't countered Tubbs' basic objection.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
And you're gonna cut this "coward" shit out right now. I don't want to see it again in reference to people who wouldn't play in your theoretical sandbox.
Within Styx, as you wish. Within the duel board itself this would be normal though.
Let's look at what you posted earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
What happens if the person who's been challenged to a duel under your system refuses to show up?
The same that happens to a person who's been called to Hell and refuses to show up. I suggest that after a suitable time the thread is closed. (And thus in principle someone else can try to challenge the same coward.)
People who don't respond are cowards, are they? But perhaps you didn't mean to say that either? Otherwise Erin was spot on about "coward" shit.
I really think you're going to have to do better. Here's one Shipmate who sees no threat to the Ship as a result of an experiment. But please! Let's not waste time with an ill-thought out and potentially aggressively-motivated one
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Now, I remember this duel stuff to be quite fun and I think it has potential.
I didn't realize this had anything to do with fun. I thought it had to do with containing the anger of two people at least one of whom was angry with the other. It seems kind of schadenfreudig to think of that as fun.
[eta: tr: schadenfreude-y]
[ 13. October 2010, 07:20: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
Hmmm.
So according to Ingo B, people who decline to be called to 'Much Ado About Nothing' (I still think Sine's suggestion is best) are 'cowards' and people who don't like the idea are scared of change.
The whole idea seems to be rooted in the idea of having 'winners' and 'losers' which ISTM is inimical to the aims of the SoF boards which are about discussion - everyone who thinks they have a dog in the fight gets a say, and H & A s are there to ensure things all participants are playing by the rules.
One of the interesting things about Hell is that when there's a genuine reason for a Hell call, the participation of others often results in the OP being debunked by other people asking what they are on about, or the OPer and the object of the OP come to a greater understanding through the participation of other posters. And even if none of this happens, nobody ends up worse off as far as I can see.
MAAN on the other hand would be aimed specifically at creating a Death Match between two participants.
Personally I can think of nothing more tedious than a board full of the sort of posts where one very opinionated poster attempting to bludgeon another poster to death with words.
I left another forum because someone was taking that approach with me and others, and most discussions ended up with that person having the last word while everyone else got on with their lives. I wasn't a coward. I just got terribly bored.
It wouldn't have happened on SoF because the hosting team would have worked out how to deal with what I believe was basically a form of crusading/trolling.
I am not saying the H & As are right all the time about everything, but in general, there is a system that works well enough to keep things running in a way that keeps people on board.
By all means try another board - I shan't be reading it, but I don't read all the boards anyway.
But don't say I'm scared of change just because I can't see what it would add to what is already here, and feel that hosting it would be completely nightmarish.
[ 13. October 2010, 08:13: Message edited by: Arrietty ]
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The idea of a "duel" board seems really very weird to me.
In real life there are lots of conflict resolution mechanisms. Models which I think work include private communication, meetings with intermediaries and arbitration mechanisms. The latter two would require too much intensive host input to be possible, so we can forget about that here. Private communication is already available.
The hell model is a public airing of grievance, and I argue that the communities input is necessary. It may sometimes have malign elements in various dogpiles, but it allows the community to vent feelings that would be unacceptable elsewhere, and the external influence may be salutory to disputants in a thread.
Without that, the models of conflict resultion that involve community witnessed argument without community participation are law courts, political debate and the like. In all these situations there is another arbiter to resolve the conflict - either a judge, a jury, or an election coming up.
I don't understand what the point is in a publically witnessed argument between two or a limited number of individuals. Are we supposed to applaud for rhetorical flourishes? Vote afterwards for a winner? Simply enjoy a spectacle? I don't get it. It seems more like a vehicle for a kind of game rather than an aspect of an internet community.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What I do care about though, a lot, is this "end of the world" vibe whenever there is a suggestion of anything new. I challenge the very assumption that I have to defend this down to the last detail.
I wouldn't say you do. I'd say that as you're proposing a major change to a distinctive "pressure valve" feature of the boards - one which has previously been trialled and rejected - it helps your case to clearly explain why it's necessary, why you think it would work, and to clear up any concerns about the practicalities. I'd be astonished if there was an academic committee anywhere in the world that wouldn't expect the same. Maybe an academic committee wouldn't confront you with a dozen or so objections from different people, many covering similar ground, but as with the accusations of bullying, I think it's a mistake to attempt to compare online forum activity with real life too closely, because the differences are too many and too great to allow for a meaningful comparison.
However, the idea of an experimental board in general is interesting - how do you imagine it would operate?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Probably only a minor issue, but how do you know when it's over?
CALLER: I challenge thee to a duel, sir! Thou art a pissant and a cad.
RESPONDER: Bugger off.
CALLER: Neener-neener.
RESPONDER: Et cum spirito tuo.
CALLER: I fart in your general direction.
RESPONDER: Yeah, well, that's nice. Are we done?
INGOB (from peanut gallery): Coward!
RESPONDER: I've PM'd you - see you in Hell.
INGOB: I don't have to respond to a Hell call - I challenge you to a duel.
RESPONDER: Anyway. Knitting. Anyone got some good projects underway?
CALLER: Bazinga!
RESPONDER: Yes, yes, very funny.
[Three day hiatus]
HOST: Thread closed.
You'll need a supporting Adjudication board in the event of disputes about who won, and a final point of arbitration. The governance structure would need some work - probably around 10 pages or so should do it.
You'd need some rules about whether a Duellist can be called to Hell by a third party over something said during a duel.
And of course the Ship would have to get an indemnity off participants, so that it isn't liable for either mental distress or loss of income in the event of someone having to skip work to spend time duelling. Simon would probably need an upfront fee as well to pay for any additional insurance he has to take out.
Great idea, though.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My thought was different.
Not to have a 'duelling' board (I agree that this wouldn't work for all the reasons above)
But to have two 'furnaces' in Hell -
One for 'Hell calls' where the OP is personal, directed at a person for whatever reason.
The other for rants - like the Post Office one.
All the same rules as before - just clearer demarkation of threads.
This would help people like me who come to Hell for the rants (and enjoy the ranty, free for all discussions with fewer rules - they are much more like RL imo) but so much the more confrontational personal stuff.
No big deal if it didn't happen - but a change is good for a place imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I'm not at *all* sure the proposed debate duels would be a good idea. Could make inflamed egos worse; then, again, it could get the more egregious ego expositions off the other boards.
But if the Ship takes that step ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Debate.org might be a good reference. I stumbled across it recently. They have a very strict set of rules on how to do it--set number of rounds, civility, etc.
As to a name for the board:
"Joust of Fools".
"Fool Duel".
"I Pity The Fool!", a la Mr. T. (If no one has suggested that yet!)
"Dubious Fools".
"Fools Rush In" or "Where Angels Fear To Tread".
"Tempest in a Teapot". Or perhaps "Tempest in a Foolpot"?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
What I do care about though, a lot, is this "end of the world" vibe whenever there is a suggestion of anything new.
You what I care a lot about? Being completely ignored when I take the time to post important reasons why something isn't a good idea.
Maybe I should challenge you to a duel. That way you'd be compelled to answer lest anyone else thinks you're a coward...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You can mark me down as someone keenly interested in having a duel board.
I agree there are certain foreseeable teething problems with such a board, and many of the speculative principled arguments against it are reasonable enough, but I don’t agree this in itself is justification for not trying it if there is sufficient interest. I truly cannot see how it would do any harm to give it a whiz, since, in the end, those who dislike the concept would always be free to scroll on by.
On a positive note, I feel it could serve a useful and very specific purpose that isn’t being met with the current boards- namely, that two Shipmates, having reached a point of personal disagreement, may be able publicly to argue their positions without interference (constructive or otherwise) by others.
The thing that makes Hell so brilliant is that everyone can have their unrestrained say. It’s genius, but it is also occasionally its downfall. I’ve been dogpiled several times, and on each occasion it has been pretty impossible for me to defend my point of view effectively- mostly because of the sheer size of the tsunami engulfing me. And I’m absolutely determined to defend myself. It’s honestly very vexing, and I don’t see how it really benefits anyone.
As I see it, the main stimulus for dogpiles is the contagion of base herd behaviour, rather than any sincere individual intention to get to the heart of the disagreement. I accept the point that such mob reaction may be the rational product of widespread popular feeling (as in convergence theory in crowd psychology), but however rational the raving mob may or may not be, it is very difficult to discuss actual issues with it.
In theory, the duel board could fill a small but I think important gap here, and serve the overall benefit of the community. In practice, it may not work, but it’s very hard to know this without sucking it and seeing. I have noticed there’s definitely an unreasonable state of inertia on these boards to new ideas like this. IMO, it’s unhealthy, and might well be part of the malaise some have suggested is affecting the Ship.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...I'm sitting on academic committees that are more open and flexible than this, and that is saying something...
What an admirable revelation! Are your academic committees amenable to one-on-one combat, no holds barred, with no support from others holding opinions opposing yours? To be honest, I'm a bit surprised you've acquired tenure.
It may be difficult for you to grasp this concept, but the discussions on these boards aren't about intellectual combat, victory or defeat. IMO, the attitude you bring to debate has done more to drive away the free exchange of opinion and ideas from these fora than any other individual here. Maybe that's why there's been a mass exodus of "interesting" posters resulting in your boredom.
Your "arena" is a stupid idea - a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist; a gratuitous exercise in self-gratification by imposition of your will upon the operation of these boards.
Oh, and RooK is fucking with you. It's called "The Cobra Dance of Niceness" - he's going to set up your silly board, so that you can see it fail, in a futile attempt to shut you up.
[My apologies, Yorick, for the personal insult that got me suspended - I would never seriously suggest you should die; totally inappropriate in the Styx.]
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
How about the advocates of duelling set up their own experimental website - or just duel by email amongst themselves for a while - and present the results here for information?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
God bless you, Alfred, you're a truly wonderful human being and often sober.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
And I mean that.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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