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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
I don't think Angela Merkel's absence from the scene is insignificant.
It does, however, underlie a fact easily forgotten in the UK. Brexit is not the only thing happening in Europe. In a lot of other nations there are domestic issues of far greater importance. For the EU as a whole, Brexit will be down the list of most important issues - the strains on the Euro caused by difficulties in Greece, the vast numbers of refugees and other migrants entering the EU, aggressive political manoeuvring by Putin and probably other issues are more important.
In our little corner of Europe, Brexit may be dominating everything politically. But, that isn't true of the rest of Europe.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
I don't think Angela Merkel's absence from the scene is insignificant.
It does, however, underlie a fact easily forgotten in the UK. Brexit is not the only thing happening in Europe. In a lot of other nations there are domestic issues of far greater importance. For the EU as a whole, Brexit will be down the list of most important issues - the strains on the Euro caused by difficulties in Greece, the vast numbers of refugees and other migrants entering the EU, aggressive political manoeuvring by Putin and probably other issues are more important.
In our little corner of Europe, Brexit may be dominating everything politically. But, that isn't true of the rest of Europe.
Many of those are perceived to be very closely associated with her personally though - certainly Greece and mass immigration, the latter being the reason for AFD getting a foothold. I agree, it certainly puts our issue into perspective.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The UK based EU institutions have no choice but to leave, it takes time to relocate and starting that can't wait until the day we leave. If we make the sensible decision to remain in the EU we'll have still lost those institutions, and all the other investment that follows from their presence (the pharmaceutical companies with major offices in London to access the EMA, for example).
As I've said, if we reverse the decision to leave (which I still believe we can do, if the people so decide) then we're not going back to the same position as before the referendum was called. The loss of these agencies is just one part of what we'll have given up because of a few idiots who managed to convince a lot of people to believe the lies they peddled.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
It's just that, from over here, the Common Market and the EU have formed comparatively quickly.
Yes, the EU has formed relatively quickly. And, any nation (or, in this case treaty organisation) will have tensions and disagreements between regions. Witness what's happening in Catalonia which has only been part of Spain for a 300 years or so, or similarly Scotland as part of the UK. The US didn't take a very long time before disagreements between northern and southern states broke out into civil war. At least Brexit is only one part of the whole shooting itself in the foot rather than an outbreak of war.
A small thought, from across the Pond:
I just started skimming
"The Federalist Papers" , by Alexander Hamilton (yes, that one), John Jay, and James Madison (Gutenberg). I've never read it. But I was rummaging on the site, and noticed that Gutenberg has it. I was curious as to what the guys might have said that would relate to the current US situation.
And I wound up thinking that some of what they wrote sounded like EU and Brexit, and figuring out what to do.
Not saying that anyone *should* read it. But if you are tired of looking at EU and Brexit in a particular way, this might be a good change.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't think 18 century papers have a lot to do with 21 century Britain.
It is easy to link Brexit with all kinds of other historical thinking and ideas - when in reality Britain is in this situation because of a unique combination of historical impacts, a Western-European understanding of the State and so on.
I suspect strongly that many of our politicians are blind to our actual position in the world. Geographically we're in a bit of a backwater, off a major continent. In terms of world politics we're mostly running on inherited influence (seat in the UN SC, nuclear power, etc). In terms of economics, our currency is massively overvalued. In terms of social security, we generally value Scandinavian levels of service but we don't want to pay for it.
We're fat, expect too much, think we deserve things, try to throw our weight around.
There will come a day of reckoning.
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arse
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Geographically we're in a bit of a backwater, off a major continent.
Technically, we're not "off a major continent", we're part of a major continent. Though in terms of trade with the rest of the continent being on the north western edge does put us in something of a backwater.
I think the biggest example of the rose-tinted spectacles is the whole "great trading nation" thing. We currently have one big advantage in relation to trade - Atlantic ports that provide a convenient route for goods heading into the rest of the EU, coupled with a lot of international business conducted in English. Put a hard border between the UK and the EU and we will lose that benefit - that trade will move in part to Ireland, but mostly to ports elsewhere in Europe. Historically, our trade was built upon a manufacturing base coupled to Empire - colonies shipping raw materials to mills here to be turned into finished goods that were then shipped back to the colonies and elsewhere. We no longer have a manufacturing base to make things to sell elsewhere, and we no longer have colonies to send us raw materials even if we had factories to do anything with them.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
FWIW:
I suggested it because the authors were writing about whether there should be a union and what kind, or whether there should be states that were mostly independent, and what the various parties might owe each other, and how to make that work. And they were right in the middle of living that, and working it out.
Our founders weren't at all sure that the American Experiment would work or last. And they had conflicting ideas.
To me, that sounded very much like the EU and Brexit, per this thread.
So I just offered the link. Sometimes, looking at a troublesome thing from an odd angle can help.
YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Technically, we're not "off a major continent", we're part of a major continent. Though in terms of trade with the rest of the continent being on the north western edge does put us in something of a backwater.
Geologically we're on the continental rock. But in all other ways - given that we're an island - we can't help but be "off a major continent". There is a simple truth that most of the other states in Europe are connected together whereas a small number of island states are not.
quote:
I think the biggest example of the rose-tinted spectacles is the whole "great trading nation" thing. We currently have one big advantage in relation to trade - Atlantic ports that provide a convenient route for goods heading into the rest of the EU, coupled with a lot of international business conducted in English. Put a hard border between the UK and the EU and we will lose that benefit - that trade will move in part to Ireland, but mostly to ports elsewhere in Europe. Historically, our trade was built upon a manufacturing base coupled to Empire - colonies shipping raw materials to mills here to be turned into finished goods that were then shipped back to the colonies and elsewhere. We no longer have a manufacturing base to make things to sell elsewhere, and we no longer have colonies to send us raw materials even if we had factories to do anything with them.
Mmm. I think the truth is that we developed these trading links when we had something tangible to sell. So much of the Empire was using materials from the UK.
These trading links make far less sense when we're not producing anything tangible very much. It is basically one-way traffic.
There is a point about imports of things which continue on the EU, but I'm not sure how much of the rEU's imports really come from the UK. I suspect not an awful lot given that the EU has it's own massive container ports.
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arse
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Mmm. I think the truth is that we developed these trading links when we had something tangible to sell. So much of the Empire was using materials from the UK.
Something to sell, and some way of skewing the market be it gunboat diplomacy or trade tariffs in the early colonial era, or various forms of preferential trading in the latter part of that era.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a point about imports of things which continue on the EU, but I'm not sure how much of the rEU's imports really come from the UK. I suspect not an awful lot given that the EU has it's own massive container ports.
The high value imports to the EU from the UK tend to be fairly low volume items - typically some kind of intermediate high-tech/sci component that is used as part of a more complex product. These are exactly the kinds of things that are most affected by leaving the EU, because typically these supply lines are run using JIT principles.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A very significant part of what exists of UK manufacturing which is integrated into the needs of the manufacturing industry elsewhere in the EU. Making components, or assembling imported components into more complex components, that then get sent elsewhere in the EU for assembly into final products. Or, assembling final products from components made elsewhere in the EU. With a single market and a customs union that is a form of business that makes a lot of sense, allowing small businesses to succeed in specialist markets and supplying the needs of larger manufacturers.
I don't know the figures, it's possible they simply haven't even been collated by anyone. But, there will be some goods that arrive at UK ports and are immediately transferred to the rest of the EU. There will be far more goods that arrive at UK ports, get shipped to a UK business for use in assembling components or finished items which then get sent to the rest of the EU.
Leaving the single market and customs union will kill that whole business model. The addition of tariffs and paperwork will put a lot of businesses out of business, as their costs will be prohibitive.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm sure this is true.
I suppose there must be three options that the Brexiteers believe. Either
- 1. It'll all come out in the wash, and eventually the complex trading relationships will sort themselves out into free-trade arrangements because that's best for everyone
- 2. Britain doesn't really need these kinds of trading relationships with the EU. If they don't want our manufacturing component links, then meh, we'll find someone else who does.
- 3. We don't need a manufacturing base anyway. Why are we bothering when we can get the same thing for much less from elsewhere in the world. We're better off focusing the economy onto something else.
In my perception, the archiest Brexiteers talk as if they believe 1, but in practice probably believe 3.
Apparently it isn't possible to tell how much stuff is imported into the UK ports which then go elsewhere in the EU. Because nobody counts.
It doesn't even seem to be possible to distinguish between exports to the EU which originated in the UK and exports which came into the UK for distribution to the rest of the EU. Because nobody counts.
But then I'm also reading that there is some confusion about how much is actually exported to the EU. Apparently the Netherlands looks like it receives a lot of British exports - because quite a lot of British stuff is exported via the massive Dutch ports, and the ultimate destination is not always properly accounted for.
Again, there seems to be a faith position from some Brexiteers that these are just pluses and minuses which will cancel each other out. This seems unlikely to me.
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arse
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I see the British judge is to lose his position on the International Court of Justice. This is a UN body, not EU, but it's another sign that Great Britain is not quite so Great these days as the Mail and Express would have us believe.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apparently the Netherlands looks like it receives a lot of British exports - because quite a lot of British stuff is exported via the massive Dutch ports, and the ultimate destination is not always properly accounted for.
That's the Rotterdam effect - it skews 2 things (and I say that without prejudice to a Remain/Leave viewpoint:
- it appears to substantially inflate UK trade to EU vs the rest of the world,
- it inflates Dutch import figures.
Basically, a lot of the UK exports to ROW are transhipped onto larger vessels in Rotterdam for onward movement to elsewhere in the globe. This is, and has always been, counted by the EU as a UK export to the Netherlands/rest of EU. Not as a UK export to Australia or wherever it's actually going.
It's been quite a well known phenomenon in UK trade circles for decades, although in the great scheme of things (up til now) of marginal impact - although great interest for those who care about the accuracy of statistics for their own sake.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
I see the British judge is to lose his position on the International Court of Justice. This is a UN body, not EU, but it's another sign that Great Britain is not quite so Great these days as the Mail and Express would have us believe.
Well it's more that the FO (who admittedly have other things to worry about right now) mishandled the approach to the hustings such that they didn't prevent for the first time there being more candidates than the available seats.
Other than that, Brexit or no, rather like the current composition of the UN Security Council, you can make a good case that the wrong nations have permanent membership for the 21st century. Like I say though, I'm not sure that's anything to do with Brexit - poignant, maybe, for those who want some poignancy in terms of the timing - but otherwise more of a reflection of the fact that India, for example, just matters more and will continue to do so.
Ironically, the real Little Englanders will probably be very happy with that - for all the easy jibes of Empire fantasy, there's actually more of a whiff of Sinn Féin Amháin ("Ourselves Alone"), "let's just be a 4th division place and keep our heads down" which is less commented on.
IME some of the harder core Brexiters don't want the UK to be on the Security Council, or to get involved in overseas adventures, or anything. They tend to be pro NATO membership, but only so far as mutual defence.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The Government is about to double the amount it will offer as a leaving payment to the EU, 'tis said. Can it be that our Prime Minister is an Enemy of the People?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
IME some of the harder core Brexiters don't want the UK to be on the Security Council, or to get involved in overseas adventures, or anything. They tend to be pro NATO membership, but only so far as mutual defence.
Which is stupid. The best defence is to avoid conflict, which is the purpose of the UN and being on the security council.
[ 21. November 2017, 15:10: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
IME some of the harder core Brexiters don't want the UK to be on the Security Council, or to get involved in overseas adventures, or anything. They tend to be pro NATO membership, but only so far as mutual defence.
Which is stupid. The best defence is to avoid conflict, which is the purpose of the UN and being on the security council.
Maybe, but they actually *want* to abdicate responsibility or leadership.
In the same way as the anti Tridenters say that eg Spain manages perfectly well without it, it also manages without being on the security council.
There's a strain of the left and right who have got past the "why's it always us?" stage to the "it's not going to be us any more" bit.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
More having your cake and eating it quote:
"The prime minister has been clear that while we are leaving the EU, we are not leaving Europe and this has been welcomed by EU leaders."
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
[ETA the usual advice to "never read the comments" applies]
[ 23. November 2017, 13:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, them's the rules. The rules state that hosting the European City of Culture is only open to states who are members of the EU, EEA or EFTA (which the government appears to have ruled us out of membership of) or candidate countries. I suppose it's possible that by 2023 the UK will be seeking readmission to the EU, and hence be an eligible candidate country, but I doubt it.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, them's the rules. The rules state that hosting the European City of Culture is only open to states who are members of the EU, EEA or EFTA.
Does being the European Capital of Culture actually offer any tangible benefits to the winning city - increased tourism, extra EU money, or anything like that? I mean actual hard numbers yes it does, not the spurious claims that often surround Olympic bids.
And let's face it, Milton Keynes is unlikely to come top of anyone's list when they're thinking of places with lots of culture.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Does being the European Capital of Culture actually offer any tangible benefits to the winning city - increased tourism, extra EU money, or anything like that?
I can't claim to have read all 236 pages, but on the face of it this seems to suggest the answer is "yes".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
And let's face it, Milton Keynes is unlikely to come top of anyone's list when they're thinking of places with lots of culture.
AIUI, the idea is not to identify cities which are already recognised as "places with lots of culture", but cities which with the right investment could become such places. And, in particular the European City of Culture is supposed to be a place where that culture can be developed in a pan-European manner, celebrating not just local culture but the richness of culture brought about by increasing cultural ties to the rest of Europe.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Does being the European Capital of Culture actually offer any tangible benefits to the winning city - increased tourism, extra EU money, or anything like that? I mean actual hard numbers yes it does, not the spurious claims that often surround Olympic bids.
The UK has had two European Capitals of Culture - Glasgow in 1990 and Liverpool in 2008. I'm not sure that either has seen any lasting tangible benefit from the designation, but people who live in them may know better than I.
Incidentally, can anyone here name the current European Capital of Culture without looking it up? I know I couldn't. Personally I don't think it's something UK cities will particularly miss, and as an added bonus it means they won't waste so much money bidding for it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In Glasgow, being City of Culture was a definite step towards renovating the city and it's image. From a perception of being grimy post-industrial urban horridness that tourists past through to get to the Highlands, Glasgow is now the third most visited tourist destination in the UK (behind London and Edinburgh) - from 10's of thousands of visitors per year to millions. There has also been a massive increase in business conventions being hosted in the city. Tourism now employs more people in Glasgow than were employed in shipbuilding at it's peak.
Investment for the City of Culture included refurbishment of many Victorian buildings, including many of the museums and galleries, building a brand new concert hall and other infrastructure.
The investment from being City of Culture fitted neatly into an ongoing programme of urban regeneration - I guess that would probably be part of the judges criteria, would this designation and the investment it would bring result in significant regeneration? Which is still ongoing, the recent Commonwealth Games being another big part of that.
Glasgow's Miles Better.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
<sarcasm> No, no, the grapes are definitely sour. Not worth jumping for... <\sarcasm>
[ 23. November 2017, 15:52: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Wait, what exactly do you mean by that?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I am assuming that the Brexit-at-any-cost fanatics will make like the fox in Aesop's fable and say it's not worth taking part anyway. See Marvin's post, above.
Of course, this is only clear to someone who has heard of Aesop's fables... you're right, I should have explained myself better.
Personally, I agree with Alan.
[ 24. November 2017, 09:49: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I got the reference, thank you. It just wasn't clear to me which camp you thought was adopting a sour grapes attitude.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I am assuming that the Brexit-at-any-cost fanatics will make like the fox in Aesop's fable and say it's not worth taking part anyway. See Marvin's post, above.
Get ready for a lot of this over the next year or so. Who needs frictionless trade with 450 million of the world's most affluent people? It isn't worth all those pesky regulations and having to weigh potatoes in Kilos.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<sarcasm> No, no, the grapes are definitely sour. Not worth jumping for... <\sarcasm>
Not by Aesop's ox, nor by ours,, who is the minister with the job of setting up trade deals to replace membership of the EU.
[ 24. November 2017, 15:28: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I am assuming that the Brexit-at-any-cost fanatics will make like the fox in Aesop's fable and say it's not worth taking part anyway. See Marvin's post, above.
Get ready for a lot of this over the next year or so. Who needs frictionless trade with 450 million of the world's most affluent people? It isn't worth all those pesky regulations and having to weigh potatoes in Kilos.
Although Mrs May claims to be desperate for deep and frictionless relations. Can anyone tell what the balance now is between the Ultras, who want a no-deal, or hard Brexit, and more moderate people?
Although it's possible that Labour are beginning to come out for soft Brexit, having overcome their fear of electoral disaster. Corbyn was going hard at May this week.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Earlier this afternoon there was a bit of a spat on twitter about customs crossings between the EU and Switzerland.
Some were arguing that SZ didn't have customs posts as it is in Schengen. Well, it turns out that's not quite true. Also, SZ's immigration policy is complicated.
It would be ironic if there would be more powers over customs and immigration should the UK leave the EU.. and then join Schengen. I'm not sure how to parse this information.
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arse
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Although Mrs May claims to be desperate for deep and frictionless relations. Can anyone tell what the balance now is between the Ultras, who want a no-deal, or hard Brexit, and more moderate people?
The "ultras" who are in favour of no deal are of that mind because it is too damn difficult to conceive of a deal. They are Bears of Very Little Brain.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Curious though, how the Ultras seem to be the tail wagging the dog. I suppose Mrs May dare not expose the Tory divisions too much, although presumably she is inching her way towards the EU agenda on money. Having said that, Ireland looks insoluble, which is why the govt keep saying, 'we need to move on'. Maybe the EU will accept that, if the UK promises £40 billion or whatever.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
The conventional wisdom is that all senior Tories have to Kowtow to hard Brexit as the Tory members are very Brexit-ey and anyone with leadership ambitions has to be acceptable to them.
This doesn't explain May's behaviour though. She can afford to ignore the assembled elderly pub bores of Britain and do the right thing. It is possible that she is moving incrementally towards soft Brexit, but it is barely detectable and assumes that soft Brexit is possible, which I doubt very much.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's not very clear what soft Brexit means, is it? I suppose it would involve keeping EU regulations, and therefore avoiding border checks and other checks. I'm not sure why the EU would accept that, as it seems to make the EU redundant.
Well, EEA might be a solution, also rejected at the moment, partly because it involves free movement. So the UK is in zugzwang!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Incidentally, can anyone here name the current European Capital of Culture without looking it up? I know I couldn't. Personally I don't think it's something UK cities will particularly miss, and as an added bonus it means they won't waste so much money bidding for it. [/QB]
I thought it was Hull (which was definitely having a lot of work done for it). But apparently it's a UK copy [though with the only other one being Derry I don't feel too bad for making the mistake.]
Link to research (by the EU so potentially biased, but also comprehensive) [edit linked to link as hopefully less work for hosts]
[ 24. November 2017, 17:25: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Sioni said: quote:
Not by Aesop's fox, nor by ours,, who is the minister with the job of setting up trade deals to replace membership of the EU.
You know, I didn't realise that a reference to 'The Fox and the Grapes' was also a riff on Liam Fox's name until you said that...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Curious though, how the Ultras seem to be the tail wagging the dog.
I suppose the most plausible reason is that if the government collapsed, there would be a leadership contest. In such a contest the views of the Tory Party membership (100K people, average age 68 and rising) would be very influential and they tend to be much more euro-sceptic than the population as a whole.
[Posted before I saw Rocinante's post]
[ 27. November 2017, 09:23: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
This doesn't explain May's behaviour though. She can afford to ignore the assembled elderly pub bores of Britain and do the right thing.
I assume the perception is that if she didn't get a 'good deal' the government would fold and/or there would be a leadership election.
As it's impossible to currently get a 'good deal' (given the contradictory caveats from the various parties - sometimes emanating from the same person), they probably assume that a leadership election is reasonably imminent.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Some investment has been announced this morning that apparently constitutes the government suddenly realising that we should have an industrial strategy.
Firstly it's hard to imagine that they have just cobbled together such arrangements in the last week, and secondly, if only we'd bothered to have an "industrial strategy" for the last forty odd years...
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
The UK has had two European Capitals of Culture - Glasgow in 1990 and Liverpool in 2008. I'm not sure that either has seen any lasting tangible benefit from the designation, but people who live in them may know better than I.
I would echo what Alan said: that it made a huge difference to Glasgow, which had a "hard man" heavy industry image. Being City of Culture let Glasgow showcase its cultural side and I would say it has gone from strength to strength since.
Dundee was one of the cities bidding to become a City of Culture. A new museum opens next year, next to the existing Discoveryand there is massive ongoing redevelopment of the waterfront. Winning City of Culture would have brought this transformed area to wider public attention; it would have been worth millions in tourist revenue.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
Liverpool's win coincided with a period of renaissance for the city generally. (There was a time under the Coalition when Liverpool had the fastest growing economy outside London despite also suffering proportionally the most drastic cuts in central government funding.)
It would be hard to say how far the city's revival was caused by the win and how far it made the win possible, but it seems unlikely that it had no effect.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
So after months of posturing, the UK government finally agrees to pay its share of unpaid bills and future liabilities.
The footnote to all of this is that the UK contribution has been reduced somewhat to reflect the fact that both its currency and economy have lost value over that time (partly due to the impact of Brexit itself).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Yes. Now all that has to happen is for the EU to sort out what Britain does for it's European workers (who contribute to its economy) and police Britain's borders for it. I'm sure in some rabbit hole this counts as 'taking back control'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
So, it looks like the cost of leaving is going to be £50 billion - unquantifiable because a fair proportion of it is for pensions for eurocrats.
I do hope we pay this out of the correct bank account - that of the DfID - to properly reflect that our hard-earned pounds will be going to prop up those poor people in France, the Netherlands, etc, etc, etc.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As opposed to our hard-earned euros propping up those poor people in Cornwall, the North-East of England, and so on? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So, it looks like the cost of leaving is going to be £50 billion - unquantifiable because a fair proportion of it is for pensions for eurocrats.
I do hope we pay this out of the correct bank account - that of the DfID - to properly reflect that our hard-earned pounds will be going to prop up those poor people in France, the Netherlands, etc, etc, etc.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) To be clear, the UK has now committed (for now - it may change in the next moment) to pay for liabilities already incurred and agreed.
So it should go out via the same route as existing payments to the EU.
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