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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I've opened a Brexit II thread upstairs for non-Hellish continuation of the discussion.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
For some time the government was harrumphing about not needing anything like a vote in Parliament. The threat of legal action has brought the government round.

Technically, a Parliamentary vote to repeal the 1972 Act isn't what the legal action is calling for. The legal action (one of at least three in the courts at present) seeks to obtain Parliamentary approval for invoking Article 50.

quote:
many will be disappointed that European Court of Human Rights (based in Strasbourg) will remain effective. We would have to withdraw from the Council of Europe to do that.
Which, would presumably need another farcical referendum. This time to withdraw from something that the UK was instrumental in creating in the first place. Which would at least show that the June referendum wasn't as stupid as we can get. We do seem to be working hard at displacing the Crimean independence vote from the position of "most idiotic referendum of modern Europe".

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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agingjb
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Given the way FPTP works, it is not impossible that a new Commons would continue to have a majority in favour of Remain.

More farce, only exceeded by the eventual referendum to leave the United Nations. No chance of that?

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Refraction Villanelles

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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
As the European Communities Act 1972 empowers Brussels to make law for the UK, yes it does make sense to repeal it as of the date the UK leaves the EU. I would be surprised if any parliamentarian didn't realise that.

For some time the government was harrumphing about not needing anything like a vote in Parliament. The threat of legal action has brought the government round.

btw, I see that the Great Repeal Bill will also end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (based in Luxembourg) within the UK. I'm sure the Brexiteers will be pleased at that but many will be disappointed that European Court of Human Rights (based in Strasbourg) will remain effective. We would have to withdraw from the Council of Europe to do that.

This has got absolutely nothing to do with the legal action you mention. The claim in that legal action is that the process of Brexit can't even begin without Parliament passing an act allowing this.

What this "great repeal bill" concerns is what happens at the end of the process. The various laws made by Brussels need to be put on a proper legislative footing after Brexit if they are to be retained. Once this is done they can be reviewed and amended over the coming years.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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I think that's a little naive, Cod. As I listened to the news this morning I had to tip my legal hat to Teresa of Aveyour akeandeatit - how do diffuse the argument about Parliamentary sovereignty? By getting Parliament to vote in the repeal if the ECA.

The timing is interesting - it does seem to have taken a while to have worked this out, and I suspect the court case is not unconnected to it . Of course, this should have been the thought about a long time ago (the people who interviewed me at BIS in 2011 certainly were), but then public officials do sometimes need the threat of looking silly in court before coming up with action.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Wesley J

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# 6075

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And in other news, a referendum in Colombia that didn't exactly go to plan either:

quote:
Colombians, even those who backed the "No" vote, expressed shock at the outcome and uncertainty about the future.

"We never thought this could happen," said sociologist and "No" voter Mabel Castano, 37. "Now I just hope the government, the opposition and the FARC come up with something intelligent that includes us all." (from Reuters)



[ 03. October 2016, 08:56: Message edited by: Wesley J ]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I'm sure the Columbian government will come up with something intelligent.

I hold out no such hope for the UK government.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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I want off this planet.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm sure the Columbian government will come up with something intelligent.

I hold out no such hope for the UK government.

But they will give a kind of simulacrum of intelligent government, as most governments do. This will satisfy some people, but not all, but then you can't satisfy all, all of the time.

"The pigs were so clever that they could think of a way round every difficulty". Animal Farm.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I want off this planet.

I think I slipped into a parallel universe at some point.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I wonder if the Tory stuff on immigration in companies is making the SNP reach for their independence manifestos. This could embolden every stupid racist in the country. What a hell on earth.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I see that UKIP have managed an 18 day leader. I think even the England manager would struggle to lose the job that quickly.

It appear Diane James was the victim of a verbal assault and got spat on. Which is, of course, a terrible thing to happen to anyone. However, I do seem to be feeling a bit short of sympathy for her. Probably due to the fact that the inflamatory campaign her party ran for Brexit has contributed to thousands of people being verbally and physically abused, and at least two murders.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Reading various Scots arguing that this Tory conference is a watershed for Scotland. I don't know enough about the SNP, but at first glance, in the face of this blatant encouragement of racism, if not now, when? (Independence).

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Personally, it looks like a very clever political move. At present, I can't see an independence referendum being popular - the people of Scotland have had two referenda in as many years, a third anytime soon isn't generally wanted. That lack of popularity in the notion of another referendum, even in people who would be inclined to vote yes, will result in a low turn out, and probably a resounding defeat. Which will push independence into the long grass for decades, a disaster for the SNP and exactly what the Tories want.

It looks like the Tories have used the conference to goad the SNP into calling an early referendum. I hope Nicola has as steady a head on her shoulders as she seems to, and doesn't take the bait. She needs to push the government into as many concessions as she can get to compensate for the damage Brexit will cause in Scotland - use her 57 MPs and political capital from a Scottish remain vote to push for as soft a Brexit as possible, seek transfer of as much of the powers coming back from Brussels to Holyrood as possible, with the funding to go with them. If she gets all Scotland can manage then Scotland may not do too badly out of a soft Brexit (and, as far as the Scottish government is concerned England and Wales can bear the brunt of the effects of what they voted for). If she spends two years or more getting no concessions from Westminster then she will be building a much stronger case for independence ("they foisted a referendum we didn't want on us, they got a result which was not reflected in Scotland, and they've been unreasonable in not helping Scotland offset the damage their stupidity has inflicted on us") and a referendum sometime after the UK leaves the EU (autumn 2019 at the earliest).

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I guess Sturgeon will be watching the polls like a hawk. She needs a steady line of 60% yes polls.

Wow, this stuff is scary. Firms to name foreign workers. Why not put a yellow star on them?

Some people are also saying that May is bluffing, to neutralize her own right wing, and suck back UKIP voters. Maybe.

[ 05. October 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I see that UKIP have managed an 18 day leader. I think even the England manager would struggle to lose the job that quickly.

It appear Diane James was the victim of a verbal assault and got spat on. Which is, of course, a terrible thing to happen to anyone. However, I do seem to be feeling a bit short of sympathy for her. Probably due to the fact that the inflamatory campaign her party ran for Brexit has contributed to thousands of people being verbally and physically abused, and at least two murders.

It appears that something worse than a verbal assault has have happened to leading UKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe. The Express reports that he was punched by a colleague and then collapsed. Looks like he isn't at all well.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Personally, it looks like a very clever political move. At present, I can't see an independence referendum being popular - the people of Scotland have had two referenda in as many years, a third anytime soon isn't generally wanted. That lack of popularity in the notion of another referendum, even in people who would be inclined to vote yes, will result in a low turn out, and probably a resounding defeat. Which will push independence into the long grass for decades, a disaster for the SNP and exactly what the Tories want.

It looks like the Tories have used the conference to goad the SNP into calling an early referendum. I hope Nicola has as steady a head on her shoulders as she seems to, and doesn't take the bait. She needs to push the government into as many concessions as she can get to compensate for the damage Brexit will cause in Scotland - use her 57 MPs and political capital from a Scottish remain vote to push for as soft a Brexit as possible, seek transfer of as much of the powers coming back from Brussels to Holyrood as possible, with the funding to go with them. If she gets all Scotland can manage then Scotland may not do too badly out of a soft Brexit (and, as far as the Scottish government is concerned England and Wales can bear the brunt of the effects of what they voted for). If she spends two years or more getting no concessions from Westminster then she will be building a much stronger case for independence ("they foisted a referendum we didn't want on us, they got a result which was not reflected in Scotland, and they've been unreasonable in not helping Scotland offset the damage their stupidity has inflicted on us") and a referendum sometime after the UK leaves the EU (autumn 2019 at the earliest).

And good luck to her frankly! Would she consider a transfer? The whole country could do with the help, not just Scotland! Our PM appears to have turned into Nick Griffiths in a dress and pointy-wonties. (Yes, I know I've changed my tune!)

The only problem with a successful independence vote is what they go for afterwards. Full EU or EEA / EFTA membership. The latter might work better for Scotland. It’ll give them access to the Single Market, plus control over things like trade and fishing. It also means they’re not subject to the EU’s fiscal rules – which might be a bit of a stretch.

OTH, there is a danger that Scotland could end up with independence and have their EU / EETA application vetoed by Spain and a few other countries with similar nationalist movements they want to keep quiet. That wouldn’t be great. It’s not just the polls she needs to watch.

Tubbs

[ETA: I'm not sure about the goading. May would have to agree to a referendum and she's unlikely too. And the SNP don't have a majority. All of these things could change)

[ 06. October 2016, 13:11: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It appears that something worse than a verbal assault has have happened to leading UKIP leadership hopeful Steven Woolfe. The Express reports that he was punched by a colleague and then collapsed. Looks like he isn't at all well.

It says a lot about the way UKIP think of politics that their MEPs consider throughing punches to be an acceptable approach. I saw that over lunch, and my first thought was "you can take the man out of the National Front, but you can't take the National Front out of the man".

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I think it is a parable of the whole Brexit exercise. The party of which this was pretty much the defining purpose, because it would somehow makes things better, implodes as soon as their goal is achieved, in a fight in the corridors of an EU institution from which the combatants draw salaries.

CS Lewis' 'they have called down deep heaven on their heads' springs to mind.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637

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Well, that's nice , isn't it?

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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Well, that's nice , isn't it?

I think it shows that the hard Brexiteers are feeling insecure. Today in the Commons, a whole raft of MPs, from different parties, were arguing for greater scrutiny by them of Brexit. They weren't arguing against Brexit, but that there is discussion of what kind of Brexit.

I think this unnerves the hard right, and probably, they sense that all is not rosy in the Brexit garden, see the sinking £.

Ironic that one of the slogans was sovereignty, since presumably, it is Parliament that is sovereign, not the Daily Mail.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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Good article by Mr Chu.

My grandparents used to take the Express. It's worldview was not mine but it was, once upon a time, a serious newspaper. I wonder how long it will be before they run a front page with "Remoaners Killed Princess Di!"

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Good article by Mr Chu.

My grandparents used to take the Express. It's worldview was not mine but it was, once upon a time, a serious newspaper. I wonder how long it will be before they run a front page with "Remoaners Killed Princess Di!"

My memory isn't so sharp but I can't recall Eurosceptics or Leave campaigners being described as traitors while we were in the EU. Some might have been, but not simply by virtue of wanting out.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Whisper it quietly, but Mrs May was looking a bit shaky today in the Commons, in relation to Brexit. It might be because some Tories are making common cause with Labour voices, asking for scrutiny of any Brexit deal. Or possibly, nobody really knows what kind of Brexit deal they are going for, and what its results might be. If the £ sinks to half a dollar, time to start growing mangelwurzels in your back garden.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The subversion of the democratic process is possibly inevitable, given that Hameron subverted democracy to temporarily shore up his own position within the Tory Party. He gave us a farcical and anti-democratic referendum*, and we're reaping the results of that act of stupidity.

 

* A non-farcical and democratic referendum would have been held after several years of public and political discussion on our place in Europe, leading to an organisation calling for a well-defined position for the UK outside of the EU. This organisation would then need to a) produce a manifesto for Brexit and b) be in a position to lead the country through that (ie: include members of government, even be the government). Then we would be in a position to put the question to the public.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I was watching the debate, and by far the most effective politician in the chamber was Keir Starmer, who cut apart the nonsense being spouted by David Davies.

Davies had nothing to say and he said it over and over again.

Unfortunately, the next most sensible contribution came from Jacob Rees-Mogg, who I despise. Although utterly insufferable, he was clearly right to say that whatever the government is claiming today, there will be opportunities for Parliament to hold them to account, not least in having the ability to call a Vote of No Confidence.

The smug little bastard sat there smirking, but I think the truth is that whilst there will probably not be a direct way for the HoC to vote on the Brexit policies put forward by May & co - assuming that they ever get around to deciding amongst themselves what they actually way want - there is still an effective majority in favour of Remain within the HoC.

Now, of course, it remains to be seen if a majority of them actually have the bottle to pull the trigger, but it seems to me that there are going to be numerous skirmishes throughout the whole period of negotiation with the EU and almost any of them could derail the whole process.

Which in itself is going to be disastrous for Sterling and for British manufacturing, given the shockwaves caused by a whiff of uncertainty in recent days.

The only conclusion one can come to is that whatever happens now, we're all fucked. If the EU is clever, they'll somehow extract themselves from Brexit Britain before it manages to pull the whole Eurozone down with it.

Meanwhile we can only watch as Sterling plummets.

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arse

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Callan
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# 525

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Apparently Tesco have pulled Marmite from their shelves after a dispute with Unilever caused by a fall in the value of Sterling. I wonder if we are apt to see any other household staples vanish in the next few months.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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It might be an exaggeration to say the disappearance of Marmite is worth Brexit, but not a a massive one.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Surely any sacrifice is worth paying, for the purity and hardness of our Brexit. No Marmite, powdered eggs, Woolton pie, fuel rationing - bring it on! It can only add glory to our cause, forever white and right!

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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They'll have to pry my marmite out of my cold, dead hand.

Never give up, never surrender.

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Forward the New Republic

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Penny S
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# 14768

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How on earth can a product supposed to have been invented to use up the waste yeast from British breweries be affected by changes in the value of Sterling?

I may have to add Marmite to my secret supply of Bovril, bought when it was proposed to make it without beef.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Unilever is a multinational which owns over 400 brands, many of which are common items in the UK shopping basket. Some of these are produced abroad, and their cost has increased some 15-20%, which Unilever would like to pass along to Tesco. Tesco is refusing, and has delisted Unilever products.

Marmite is merely the collateral damage in a larger war.

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Forward the New Republic

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Unilever is a multinational which owns over 400 brands, many of which are common items in the UK shopping basket. Some of these are produced abroad, and their cost has increased some 15-20%, which Unilever would like to pass along to Tesco. Tesco is refusing, and has delisted Unilever products.

Marmite is merely the collateral damage in a larger war.

On the upside, Pot Noodle is another.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
On the upside, Pot Noodle is another.

Which is (proudly?) made in the Welsh Valleys.

However much disruption the Sterling exchange rate is currently causing, it seems a bit unlikely that changes in the price of raw materials would justify a major increase in the price of Pot Noodles.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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There is a pot noodle museum in Tokyo, where you can design your own flavour and take a pot of it home with you.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
How on earth can a product supposed to have been invented to use up the waste yeast from British breweries be affected by changes in the value of Sterling?

Because the largest costs associated with production is energy costs, followed by transportation costs (linked to energy costs).

So it's not implausible that the cost of production has gone up.

Besides which, suppliers like Unilever will typically have a collective purchase agreement with their customers. So the reality will be that the prices of individual goods have gone up, and the cost of the basket of all goods have been increased to compensate.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Because the largest costs associated with production is energy costs, followed by transportation costs (linked to energy costs).

So it's not implausible that the cost of production has gone up.

I'm pretty sure that the major costs in making Marmite are in UK tax, labour and UK materials. Materials that vary on the international market are likely a minor part of the wholesale price - so whilst a small variation may indeed be in order, a 10% increase is hard to justify, particularly given that road fuel costs have not increased markedly for a long time.

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arse

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I'm pretty sure that the major costs in making Marmite are in UK tax, labour and UK materials.

I think you are overestimating the cost of dead yeast.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It's not clear from the news reporting what the actual situation re: Marmite is. The options that seem to be there are:

1) Unilever have increased the price for all their products by 10% (presumably, therefore, increasing profit on those where actual production costs haven't risen by 10% but reducing profit on those where the costs have risen by more than 10%)

2) Unilever have collective purchase agreements with a price per shipment that is largely independent of the exact make-up of the shipment (so, they don't charge Tesco for a box of Marmite, and the price of the shipment has been increased because of the increased costs of importing some of the goods in it)

3) Unilever have a collective purchase agreement where everything is individually priced. The price of Marmite hasn't increased, but the prices for imported goods have increased significantly. Tesco refuse to pay the higher prices for imported goods, and Unilever have refused to sell them anything (including Marmite at the same price as before) unless Tesco agree to buy the other goods.

Ultimately the price rise is down to the 20% increase in costs of imported goods as a result of changes to exchange rates. It's probably that within the manufacture of Marmite there are some imported ingredients or components (eg: the jars they put it in, the lids or labels, or products to clean the production line ...). So, even a British made product will face some increases in production costs.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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And, of course, Tesco are trying to keep prices in store as low as possible. But, why should they? They are clearly acting against the "expressed will of the British people", after all back in June a majority voted in favour of increased prices. Why are Tesco allowed to go against that decision when anyone else questioning that decision gets called "anti-democratic" (or worse) by the tabloid press? Why aren't the red-tops hauling Tesco over the coals for not accepting the will of the people and increasing prices?

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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Well said Alan.

I have a colleague who voted leave who is now complaining bitterly about how much he's having to pay to buy dollars for his Florida trip.

I don't dare to comment about this to him for fear of saying something I'll regret. I have to work with him. Until 4 months ago I considered him reasonably bright.

[Roll Eyes]

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Welease Woderwick

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# 10424

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My UK work pension arrived in my account over here today, down another 8% in the last month!

An article in the financial pages this week suggested that Sterling will be par with the Euro by the end of 2017, but I would not be at all surprised if it was a little bit sooner than that.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I have checked my inventory. I probably have enough Marmite left to last me out.

Waitrose shows no sign of panic buying! Or, indeed, any buying, despite it being one of the items which can be bought at a discount by myWaitrose card holders.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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But (you may not have realised this) not everyone shops at Waitrose.

(Says he smugly, having shopped there this very morning.)

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Well, I know that. But I wasn't going round to do a Marmite check everywhere!
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Ariel
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# 58

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Only in Britain would "Marmite shortage in Tesco's" make front page headlines...
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rolyn
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# 16840

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Only in Britain do we laugh in adversity, even when it is self- inflicted. Rather like buying a ticket to watch England footballers draw nil nil against mediocre opponents.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Call the thought police!

At least that's what Councillor Christian Holliday has asked for, by launching a petition to amend the Treason Felony Act. If successful (at the time of writing, he has 201 signatures of the 100,000 needed for the petition to even be considered for debate in Parliament), any support given to the idea that the UK should be part of the European Union will be considered as treason.

What a pigeon-witted idiot!

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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Callan
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# 525

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I am tempted to start a counter petition calling for Mr Holliday to be renamed 'Muslim Winterval' just to see how many signatures it gets.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Call the thought police!

At least that's what Councillor Christian Holliday has asked for, by launching a petition to amend the Treason Felony Act. If successful (at the time of writing, he has 201 signatures of the 100,000 needed for the petition to even be considered

A number of the backwoods Tories are going off on similar(ish) lines:

https://twitter.com/Stewart4Pboro/status/787425569982050306

https://twitter.com/geraldhowarth/status/784427139550613510

It is against idiotic statements such as these that the Leavers critique that the EU is being 'unreasonable' should be gauged.

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