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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Football - Euro 2012
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
Well I didn't see that coming.
Still, Italy win the whole thing... England go out to eventual winners on penalties... I'm sure I can work this into England coming second somehow. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Balotelli --< think I spelled it right this time>
[ 28. June 2012, 21:28: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If the first goal was something , then the second goal was something else . And what about the goal celebration from Balitello ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Well worth the yellow card .
The last minute penalty was small consolation for a German side that ,uncharacteristically, never took control of the game .
The German keeper was standing at the end of both goals- no shot at either.
Re: the yellow, we were rather hoping that Mario (not to get familiar, just easier to spell) would be the first player to score a brace and get a red card in one Euro Cup game. A new version of the Gordie Howe Hat Trick in ice hockey (a goal, an assist, and a fight).
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Germany bottled it, plain and simple. Even at 2-0 down they should have had the class to get back into the game but they couldn't muster the nerve to play many incisive passes or to keep calm in front of goal.
And Chelsea can now claim two scalps at this tournament: Robben's poor form sunk The Netherlands' chances, and we've completely broken Schweinsteiger!
[ 29. June 2012, 02:00: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Og, King of Bashan: You could make an argument that as soon as the Spanish player missed the first shot, Ronaldo should have gone in and done his thing, hopefully putting the pressure on Spain for the rest of the shoot out.
Is that allowed? I always thought that the coaches gave the list of 5 players to the referee before the shots started, and then couldn't change it anymore.
quote:
rolyn: And what about the goal celebration from Balitello
Well worth the yellow card .
I can personally testify that the whole of Africa was cheering at that point. What a moment.
I started watching the game wanting to cheer for Germany (uncharacteristically for someone from the Netherlands), because I thought Italy would just play defence. Boy, was I wrong.
If they're playing like this in the final, I'm sure they're going to beat Spain.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
And Chelsea can now claim two scalps at this tournament: Robben's poor form sunk The Netherlands' chances, and we've completely broken Schweinsteiger!
Did you watch the German cup final by any chance? There you would have seen that Robben played badly there as well, including missing a pen.
Last year I read an article about Schweinsteiger in a German football magazine, where it was stated that he goes missing in big games. Many examples from matches for Bayern and Germany were given (such as the German defeats to Italy and Spain in the past). He didn't even do much in the Madrid semi-final either.
Italy were class last night. Spain and Italy are deffo the best sides in Europe over the past six years. Thing with Italy is, they've got plenty of players who didn't play in 2006.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
To be fair, Schweinsteiger has been on and off injured for a few months and it was not certain he'd even be able to play this time round.
It was a most frustrating game to watch. Not quite as bad as 2006 when Italy played six crap games and only played magnficently once - in the semi against Germany. This time at least they played real football on several occasions and even a very good game against England. And even their usual fouling and play-acting were less prominent.
Still, losing to Italy is extremely hurtful - I'd much rather lose to England or Netherlands or some plucky underdog than this. Only losing to Argentina could compare.
PS: Is it a coincidence? In 2006 Italy came on the back of a huge corruption scandal in their league and won the cup. This time they come on the back of a huge corruption scandal again(incidentally involving Buffon). Maybe they need the atmosphere of cheating to get themselves in fifth gear?
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If the first goal was something , then the second goal was something else . And what about the goal celebration from Balitello
Well worth the yellow card .
Pity it wasn't red! That player gets away with kicking opposing players in the head. The officials must be thick not to notice how violent the Italian is. Even his own coach has reservations about him.
I am still annoyed about the lack of coverage for major matches here in the US. I get the Fox Soccer Channel and Gok, but not ESPN3...
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
If that was so that the Italian team reacts well to cheating, Germany react less well, as shown through examples of Germans cheating (such as this one, or this one, though they did react positively in this example.
I don't honesty believe that cheating will alone win you competitions. Even the mancs (who have had some help from diving players and refereeing decisions) needed to have good players in order to win stuff.
I find that teams who win tournaments are those who don't start off so well but play better as the tournament progresses. Germany peaked against Greece.
[ 29. June 2012, 10:37: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I get the Fox Soccer Channel and Gok, but not ESPN3...
You know that ESPN3 is an online streaming channel, right? Here is the link.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
If that was so that the Italian team reacts well to cheating, Germany react less well, as shown through examples of Germans cheating (such as this one, or this one, though they did react positively in this example.
I hadn't forgotten Klinsmann's prowess as a diver, but I had forgotten the referee's histrionics!
quote:
I don't honesty believe that cheating will alone win you competitions. Even the mancs (who have had some help from diving players and refereeing decisions) needed to have good players in order to win stuff.
On the field cheating doesn't help much, unless the referee is utterly 'nobbled'. Financial cheating, such as the ruses Rangers have been running for years does win competitions.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
I am not sure what a ball crossing the line after hitting the crossbar and the ref not seeing it has to do with cheating. Nobody can initiate this in order to fool the ref. England benefitted from that sort of oversight in 1966 (which is why in German such crossbar-bouncing balls are called "Wembley goal" ) and against Ukraine this time round. Did England cheat? Thought not.
Klinsmann's diving prowess is well known and frowned upon here. Unlike in Argentina where Maradona is publicly celebrated not despite but inter alia because of the "hand of God". Would the English public applaud a player who won a game by cheating? Would you yourself do it?
As for our referee scandal, this was a case of Croatian Mafia bribing one young referee who went to jail for it. No players were involved and his threat to name some never came to anything. The last major bribery scandal over here happened c. 1970.
If you absolutely want examples of German shame, watch 1982 Ger-France, especially extra-time. Schumacher repeatedly wasn't interested in the ball, but in punching his opponent. Successfully and unpunished. In those days, brutal fouls routinely went with a yellow or no booking. I am very glad refereering got a lot stricter since then.
However, to get away from personal rancour and anecdotal evidence: When Yogi Löw took over he publicly announced he wanted to introduce a style of play with as few fouls as possible. The result is this. I am seriously proud of this. As I was when my own team once was given the fairness trophy in a tournament where we lost the final.
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A martyr is someone living with a saint.
2509
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvander:
I am not sure what a ball crossing the line after hitting the crossbar and the ref not seeing it has to do with cheating. Nobody can initiate this in order to fool the ref. England benefitted from that sort of oversight in 1966 (which is why in German such crossbar-bouncing balls are called "Wembley goal" ) and against Ukraine this time round. Did England cheat? Thought not.
You must have missed the bit about Neumann trying to convince the ref that it wasn't a goal. That was an attempt at cheating.
Anyway, the saes* did indeed benefit in 1966.
My point is, and I say this as someone who has worked in Germany for eight years, some Germans make a big deal about Italian "cheating", while in fact a fair bit of cheating has been done by Germans.
* English
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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badger@thesett
Shipmate
# 16422
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Posted
we English are blind to our own players cheating but never forget or forgive johnny foreigner....
case in point, Peter Crouch pulled the hair of opponent to score goal in group stage that got us through in previous tournament, giving himself the chance to score and we overlooked it.
Alan Shearer did occasionally kick people in the head like most top strikers but we never mention that, Paul Gasgoigne put himself out of a cup game against Arsenal I think it was by committing an awful foul but wasn't sent off as he should have been only subbed as couldn't go on, only Gary Lineker was white as the driven snow.
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handle with care, can explode without apparent reason
Posts: 319 | From: Hull | Registered: May 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Og, King of Bashan: You could make an argument that as soon as the Spanish player missed the first shot, Ronaldo should have gone in and done his thing, hopefully putting the pressure on Spain for the rest of the shoot out.
Is that allowed? I always thought that the coaches gave the list of 5 players to the referee before the shots started, and then couldn't change it anymore.
I have no idea- that's why I ask.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The German keeper was standing at the end of both goals- no shot at either.
With Italy's second goal poor Nueur looked like a traffic warden trying to stop a Ferrari traveling at 100 mph.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badger@thesett:
we English are blind to our own players cheating but never forget or forgive johnny foreigner....
case in point, Peter Crouch pulled the hair of opponent to score goal in group stage that got us through in previous tournament, giving himself the chance to score and we overlooked it.
It was against Trinidad and Tobago in 2006. England already had one win from one, so be careful not to overstate the case.
quote:
Alan Shearer did occasionally kick people in the head like most top strikers but we never mention that
When? Although I dimly recall him tugging an Argentine shirt in 1998, but that actually resulted in an England goal being disallowed.
quote:
Paul Gasgoigne put himself out of a cup game against Arsenal I think it was by committing an awful foul but wasn't sent off as he should have been only subbed as couldn't go on, only Gary Lineker was white as the driven snow.
How do you know he was cheating rather than simply clumsy?
And don't forget what probably happened in a parallel world in 1986 > Maradona > handled ball into goal > sent off > therefore no second wonder goal > Eng win 1-0 > Eng beat Belg > and .err.. Eng lose to WG on penalties in final.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I don't honesty believe that cheating will alone win you competitions. Even the mancs (who have had some help from diving players and refereeing decisions) needed to have good players in order to win stuff.
Are you referring to Citeh?
I recollect some research made from match footage. It concluded that Man Utd tended to have borderline decisions made against them.
(no it was not conducted by a M Utd supporters' group)
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I didn't mean you lot, but the team who play in red in Manchester.
Notice how such a study didn't come out before when they were doing alright!
Anyway, I seem to recall that it was Lennon who got kicked in the face by Shearer, during a Leicester-Newcastle game. One can see the incident here on 35 seconds.
Notice how the FA did absolutely FA in dealing with that. The story goes that Shearer said he would stop playing for England if he got a ban. Given that 471 out of 473 FA disciplinary hearings (a 99.5% conviction rate) find the player being charged, it is important to note that Shearer was one of the two cases where the player wasn't charged (the other was Ian Wright). This is the same FA who managed to postpone their considerations about the allegations against John Terry, waiting to see what the real judicial process says.
Let's just say that I don't trust the FA and their convictions of players.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
This is the same FA who managed to postpone their considerations about the allegations against John Terry, waiting to see what the real judicial process says.
Yes. Because prejudicing a criminal trial is such a good idea.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Then you should take that up with the CPS. Once JT is done with his court appearance, the FA will get their turn and he'll be under exactly the same rules as Suarez. You should be glad that your guy got off so lightly by comparison.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
You know very well why Liverpool gave up in the end. Or should I say, the FSG management, wary of anything giving their "brand" a bad name.
I wouldn't say a 8-match ban is "getting off lightly". Saying that, he did need a break.
Perhaps I have not been clear: The FA make decisions to help the FA; things like truth are not important for them. Suarez was treated the way he was due to pressure from FIFA. Shearer wasn't charged as he was the England captain. The FA did the right thing with John Terry purely to enable him to play in the European Championship.
It's worth thinking whether any possible criminal case (violence, racism, financial corruption) should be outside the jurisdiction of the FA until an independent board (such as the CPS, as you rightfully say) gives its verdict. I mean, a 99.5% conviction rate is strange.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Alternatively the FA might have received advice that any action against Terry would have been stayed at Terry's behest pending the outcome of his trial.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Given that 471 out of 473 FA disciplinary hearings (a 99.5% conviction rate) find the player being charged, it is important to note that Shearer was one of the two cases where the player wasn't charged (the other was Ian Wright).
At least they got 'charged'. I don't recollect Robbie Fowler being 'charged' with homophobia.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
What you're forgetting, Cod, is that Liverpool are always Right and Virtuous (note the capitalization: that's how good they are!), whereas the rest of the world is always horrible and wrong. This is an axiom inherent in the nature of the created world, is everlasting and unchangeable. Blessed be the name of Bill Shankly.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
"Football's not life or death , it's much more important than that " .
Coming back to the conclusion of Euro 2012 .
It seemed like a good finish to what was, overall , a sucessful and enjoyable Tournament.
[ 01. July 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I feel a bit sorry for Italy, in the sense that I don't think they deserved that score-line. There was a good fifteen minutes of play in the first half (after the first goal) where Spain sat back and suddenly the roles had been reversed: Italy with all the possession and several good chances. Casillas kept Spain in it at that point - an underrated contribution. Spain were clearly too good for them on the day, but I don't think they were really deserving of being on the wrong end of the worst rout in the history of the championship.
But what about Spain? I can't wax lyrical anything like eloquently enough to do them justice, so I'll do some old-fashioned understatement instead:
They. Were. Good.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Apart from the six-match ban.
Fair enough. At least you didn't try to justify his actions.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
We missed all of it except for the two final goals. I am happy for Spain. They were the best side and their players seem to be less violent compared to Italy. I remember the last Euro: we were on holiday by the sea, but stayed indoors during the matches. Would that someday England could win, or in a long shot, even the US...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
We missed all of it except for the two final goals. I am happy for Spain. They were the best side and their players seem to be less violent compared to Italy. I remember the last Euro: we were on holiday by the sea, but stayed indoors during the matches. Would that someday England could win, or in a long shot, even the US...
Unlike England, the United States of America has a good excuse for not winning the European Nations Cup!
Spain get a lot of stick for their 'formation' but that only matters when you are defending. Also, I'm sure France played most of the 1998 World Cup without an outright striker (so up yours, Wenger!). As Spain rely on clever passes and runs behind the line of the man with the ball to make opportunities they can afford to play with six/five/four/three across the middle. I think all four goals came that way in the final, and Italy nearly did for England with passes to Balotelli running through our so solid defence (not).
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
So, Sir Kevin, what do you think of today's announcement?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Well, it is a bit of a surprise, but not much that Happy Harry was sacked. I hope his replacement is given enough money to build a side that will beat the two teams from you-know-where! Villas-Boas has a long road ahead of him...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
What you're forgetting, Cod, is that Liverpool are always Right and Virtuous (note the capitalization: that's how good they are!), whereas the rest of the world is always horrible and wrong. This is an axiom inherent in the nature of the created world, is everlasting and unchangeable. Blessed be the name of Bill Shankly.
That Liverpool fans held a mosaic during our game against Juve in 2005 and organised a game with Juve fans that day, or that I know of fans who, when travelling through Belgium make a trip to the memorial in Heysel to pay their respects have certainly passed you by. That the biggest critics of Liverpool fans (well, with a reasoned argument) are other Liverpool fans have also passed you by.
If you ask me about what I think about the racial views of Tommy Smith then you may find your prejudices being challenged.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
In fairness to Liverpool, this seems like an unmitigated Good Thing™
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Heh, on another online platform for Liverpool fans I'm arguing why it's a good thing.
Anyway, I've been away to haven't had the chance to ask this question: How does this Spanish team rank with the great teams of the past?
What great teams of the past are there, apart from Brazil 1970?
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Congrats to Liverpool for supporting Liverpool Pride.
A match between Spain 2012 and Brazil 1970 could hinge on goalmouth action. Brazil's 'keeper was pretty poor (they were attack oriented in general) while Spain's nine/ten-man defence was the basis of their win.
I never saw them, but Hungary's team that didn't win the World Cup in 1954 was reckoned the best for a very long time, and it's been said that the West German team that won did so with a bit of assistance that would now be illegal.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I'm not sure how one is supposed to compare teams in different eras.
One way of doing so would be to ask 'did this team change the way football is played?' Arguably the Hungarians in '54 did, the Brazilians in '71 did, but the Spanish of '08-'12 have not.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
No other team has won back to back European Championships with a World Cup inbetween. For that reason this Spanish team has to be right up there. No other team can emulate them, as they are not good enough. I'm too young like, but I don't think any teams emulated the Brazil 1970 team.
For me the best teams that I have seen were the 1988 Dutch team, the late 90s French team, and the late 80s Argentinian team. I'm not sure who would beat who, but they're right up there for me.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Winning record doesn't necessarily indicate a great team - it can just mean that their competition isn't good enough.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I'm not sure how one is supposed to compare teams in different eras.
One way of doing so would be to ask 'did this team change the way football is played?' Arguably the Hungarians in '54 did, the Brazilians in '71 did, but the Spanish of '08-'12 have not.
Hungary definitely changed the game but I'm not sure Brazil 1970-71 differed much from their side of the preceding decade. Had Pele not been kicked off the park in 1966 they might have won then!
We might see in years to come if Spain have changed football. They play better without the ball than any side I've ever seen (and the stat's for once agree) and they have turned on its head the underachievers tag that some good Spanish national sides have had.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I'm not sure their tika-taka is that much different from the 'total football' of Gullit, van Basten, et al. That was all I really meant.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Imaginary Friend: I'm not sure their tika-taka is that much different from the 'total football' of Gullit, van Basten, et al. That was all I really meant.
I always thought that 'total football' belonged to Cruijff, Neeskens, Van Hanegem, Jansen...?
BTW It was interesting to see how Seedorf was received in Brazil, where he's going to play for Botafogo. You don't often see this kind of reception for a player of 36 years old.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I'm sure you're right. I typed those two names from memory and didn't bother to check.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I read that Spain owes its success to Cryuff, who as manager of Barcelona began to implement the total football that he himself was part of. Juniors were brought up to play this, and now we have the likes of Xavi and Iniesta playing that style.
For me a great team is one that wins things at an international level again and again. Holland didn't manage that in the 70s. Neither did Brazil in the 80s (their side in 1986 was better than theirs in 1994 and 2002, I reckon). As the cliche goes, one has to beat the team in front of you. Italy were no mugs both times Spain played them.
Still, if we look at the influence of teams then indeed we do have Hungary and Holland. In terms of winning things we have Spain, France and to a lesser extent Holland. The thing with the present Spanish team though is that they contain players who have won the European Cup twice recently.
The French team did not contain many players that won the European Cup that I can can remember. The Dutch team did of course contain players who won the European Cup three times in the 70s, and with Milan in the 80s/90s.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Somewhere, I read some statistics that showed that the number of players won a Champions Leaugue is one of the best indicators of which country is going to win the World or European Cup.
quote:
Rosa Winkel: and to a lesser extent Holland.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
You get me, don't you?
Spain and France both won back to back.
I would have preferred a Dutch win in 1990. Aside from the Völler business, that was one of the occasions when there was internal strife, no? I know that Van Basten and Gullit had injury problems. (Kind of like Liverpool, whose 1987/88 was one the best teams I've seen, but then had key injuries.) The Ajax team of the mid-90s was excellent, of course, but unfortunately they lost their best players and those players never produced the good together for Holland.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Rosa Winkel: You get me, don't you?
Yes I do, don't worry ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Rosa Winkel: Aside from the Völler business, that was one of the occasions when there was internal strife, no? I know that Van Basten and Gullit had injury problems.
You mean Rijkaard spitting on him? The way I remember it, the internal strife in the Dutch team came later, around the EC of 1992, after which Gullit left the team.
quote:
Rosa Winkel: The Ajax team of the mid-90s was excellent, of course, but unfortunately they lost their best players and those players never produced the good together for Holland.
I'm afraid that this is going to be a pattern. Both finalist teams of this EC, Spain and Italy, consisted overwhelmingly of players who are active within their own country. I guess that this makes it much easier to build a national team.
I'm afraid that in the future, most big tournaments will be won by countries like this, with rich competitions that keep the nation's best players in their own country. Countries like Holland, whose best players are always spread over clubs in different countries, will lose out.
Even for a country like Brazil it will become more difficult to win a WC because of this. They might still win in 2014 because they're playing at home (and I'll definitely be there to cheer them on!), but then it will be 20 years since they last won. That's a lot of time for Brazil.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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