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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Football - Euro 2012
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
To quote Michael Cox of ZonalMarking quote:
The more I thought about that game, the more I realised how bad both teams were. Bloody entertaining, mind
Referring to England v Sweden, obviously.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
It was definitely entertaining ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
OK a bit of a shambles , yet I felt happy for all those England supporters watching the game in pubs or at home , ( and those who were there ).
What the heck , we not likely to win the competition . Throw caution to the wind and let the bright new like stars like Carroll, Welbeck and Walcott do what they did last night .
No disrespect towards Rooney but I've yet to see him do a lot with an England shirt on .
Prove me wrong this time Wayne ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
To quote Michael Cox of ZonalMarking quote:
The more I thought about that game, the more I realised how bad both teams were. Bloody entertaining, mind
Referring to England v Sweden, obviously.
Danny Mills suggested that it was like Stoke v Everton. It was a lot like a Premiership game, but any Premiership side with a defence like England's would be planning at Xmas how to spend their 'parachute payment' for the next season.
Lescott must go. You can't select defenders for their ability to score a few goals. I hope that Hodgson does what Moyes did, and replace him with Jagielka, but Jones will probably get the job. Milner can make way too, Ashley Young looked lost at times (he was on the field wasn't he?) so fitting Rooney in shouldn't be a problem. There are grounds for going 4-3-3 if only to get the best combination on the field to start with, but that might not be desirable as Theo could be more effective when he comes on as the opposition are tiring.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
To be fair to Young, he was asked to play on the left rather than his preferred central role. Might explain why he found it harder to get into the game yesterday. As for the defenders, I don't see any particular reason to drop Lescott. I certainly am not convinced that Jones would do any better defensively and at least Terry and Lescott have the advantage that they've played together twice.
But I have to say, this is all rather academic really, since France are likely to spank Sweden meaning that we'll finish second (assuming we do our job against Ukraine properly) and get Spain in the quarter finals. Game over, sunshine. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
They only have to score the same number of goals as Ukraine to go through.
So stick Carroll up as a lone point man with both Rooney and Welbeck behind him, keep Young and Lescott and Oxlade-Chamberlain in midfield and go for a 6-all draw...
Well, its a theory... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Will Becks be playing in the next match? I am really irritated with television broadcasts here: we did not get the England-Sverige (Sweden) match at all - only highlights of one goal!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
What the hell am I paying the bloody cable company for if not to see live broadcasts of all major sports?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Sir Kevin, every game is being shown live on ESPN, isn't it? If that's not true then I know for definite that they're all being streamed on ESPN3.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
A Question:
Why did Greece go through on 4 points and goal difference of 0 when Russia had the same number of points and a goal difference of 2?
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
A Question:
Why did Greece go through on 4 points and goal difference of 0 when Russia had the same number of points and a goal difference of 2?
It looks like the 'head-to-head' result is taken before goal difference. Greece beat Russia, so they are ranked ahead of them.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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pjl
Shipmate
# 16929
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Posted
equal on points, so they take the head to head result..greece beat russia so go through
Posts: 576 | From: england | Registered: Feb 2012
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
This is, like, the third time I've posted this link this evening. Point 2 is equivalent to head-to-head record if two teams have the same number of points.
If three teams are tied (which may happen in Group B tomorrow), then the goal difference from games between those three teams is what counts.
One question that I can't think of an answer to is how Points 9 and 10 could ever be reached: surely it's not possible for teams to tie in the UEFA rankings, is it?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This is, like, the third time I've posted this link this evening. Point 2 is equivalent to head-to-head record if two teams have the same number of points.
If three teams are tied (which may happen in Group B tomorrow), then the goal difference from games between those three teams is what counts.
One question that I can't think of an answer to is how Points 9 and 10 could ever be reached: surely it's not possible for teams to tie in the UEFA rankings, is it?
Is this possible: if there are two distinct sets of teams, such that none of the teams plays any team in the other set, then a team from each that gets exactly the same results could have the same UEFA ranking?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Possibly. To be honest with you, I have no idea how the rankings are calculated.
So off to Wikipedia we go, and having (skim) read the method by which the points are worked out, I imagine that it is theoretically possible for two teams to have the same score even without the kind of scenario you mention.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Would that be the Peter Crouch that has scored 22 goals in those 42 games? Few players score more than a goal every two games, and he's not that good in the air!
Indeed he is not. All but three of his goals have come against opposition too weak to require England to resort to route-one tactics.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'd honestly say that England isn't getting what it should out of a population of that size considering that football is the main sport.
Not just football. Think rugby and how England are so much better resourced than any of the SH countries, yet they normally lose to them. Likewise in cricket.
Sporting wealth doesn't translate into national team performances. I think football's popularity and wealth in England ought to have yielded at least one trophy since 1966.
I've no idea what the reasons are. It's fair to note the dominance of English domestic clubs in the 1970s and 1980s, and it still seems the case that English players deliver their best in their club shirts.
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'd honestly say that England isn't getting what it should out of a population of that size considering that football is the main sport.
Not just football. Think rugby and how England are so much better resourced than any of the SH countries, yet they normally lose to them. Likewise in cricket.
On the other hand we are stunningly good at the sitting-down sports. "Punching above our weight" at shooting and archery and rowing and equestrian events, near-dominance at the sort of cycling that doesn't involve spending drug-sodden weeks churning up huge portions of France. Clearly the centre of world horse racing, and - counting Britain and Ireland together - almost the only significant player in jump racing, which is the Best Kind of Racing. And we have genuine dominance in motor racing, which tends to be hidden from view because the logos on the outside of the cars and the driver in the seat, are often not British, when the engine inside almost always is.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'd honestly say that England isn't getting what it should out of a population of that size considering that football is the main sport.
Not just football. Think rugby and how England are so much better resourced than any of the SH countries, yet they normally lose to them. Likewise in cricket.
On the other hand we are stunningly good at the sitting-down sports. "Punching above our weight" at shooting and archery and rowing and equestrian events, near-dominance at the sort of cycling that doesn't involve spending drug-sodden weeks churning up huge portions of France. Clearly the centre of world horse racing, and - counting Britain and Ireland together - almost the only significant player in jump racing, which is the Best Kind of Racing. And we have genuine dominance in motor racing, which tends to be hidden from view because the logos on the outside of the cars and the driver in the seat, are often not British, when the engine inside almost always is.
Yep, and Sweden dominates floorball, bandy and is a great power in all skiing sports. All nations will find their own niches, I suppose.
Oh, also, what do you think of the Swedish spy scandal? I can guarantee that this was not some secret deed, but a journalist happening on an interesting story - it was published on the front page of Sweden's second largest broadsheet's website 12 hours ahead of the game start. I thought of translating it for you guys, but thought it might be better to do it at the start of the game or later... (Seems no Swedes told the British media or national side until after the game, actually - quite impressive feat of teaming up as a nation!) Seems Sun readers are quite upset, though...
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Would that be the Peter Crouch that has scored 22 goals in those 42 games? Few players score more than a goal every two games, and he's not that good in the air!
Indeed he is not. All but three of his goals have come against opposition too weak to require England to resort to route-one tactics.
England have been in FIFA's top 10 for years now, but against other such sides in tournaments, ie when it matters, we have a truly appalling record. Not only does Crouch not score in these, but we are reduced to individual acts of brilliance (long shots or inspired solos) for any goals against these sides, and goals like those are neither his strength nor what he is chosen for.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
I'd honestly say that England isn't getting what it should out of a population of that size considering that football is the main sport.
Not just football. Think rugby and how England are so much better resourced than any of the SH countries, yet they normally lose to them. Likewise in cricket.
SH sports administrators can't be worse than ours?
quote:
Sporting wealth doesn't translate into national team performances. I think football's popularity and wealth in England ought to have yielded at least one trophy since 1966.
I've no idea what the reasons are. It's fair to note the dominance of English domestic clubs in the 1970s and 1980s, and it still seems the case that English players deliver their best in their club shirts.
Back in the seventies and eighties football wasn't the 'international' game it is now, but the English clubs that won European club trophies in the seventies and eighties had plenty of Scots, Welsh and Irish in their successful sides.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Women's team look like they may be about to beat the Netherlands ...
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Yup - they did it. Twas a v sneaky goal.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Back in the seventies and eighties football wasn't the 'international' game it is now, but the English clubs that won European club trophies in the seventies and eighties had plenty of Scots, Welsh and Irish in their successful sides.
Both of these points are true. However, football was, even then, immensely popular in Europe which remains football's powerhouse notwithstanding that other parts of the world are catching up. Also while there were plenty of top-level Scots, Irish and Welsh there were also an exceptionally large number of English players given the number of clubs challenging successfully for European honours - not just the likes of Liverpool but Derby, Forest, Everton and the like.
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England have been in FIFA's top 10 for years now, but against other such sides in tournaments, ie when it matters, we have a truly appalling record. Not only does Crouch not score in these, but we are reduced to individual acts of brilliance (long shots or inspired solos) for any goals against these sides, and goals like those are neither his strength nor what he is chosen for.
England have rarely been ranked above 5 or below 10 since the FIFA rankings commenced back in the 199s. That is commensurate with a last-16 or last-8 exit in the WC or the Euros, which is what England have generally achieved. That's also generally when one meets the very top (ie, top four) teams.
What's odd is that England have been so consistent in this respect, rather than being a bunch of lemons for a few years, and then becoming top-level (like the rugby team, which of course reverted to lemonism again after a while).
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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Well, that was that.
Good luck to England, I'd like to see you win. Germany, Italy or Spain winning the tournament would be boring
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
England will fluff it, and some unexpected team will go on to win. The Ukraine perhaps, or the Czech Republic.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I'm looking forward to Friday's quarter-final between Germany and Greece. Unlike England, the Greeks are overachievers.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
So, do you reckon Spain v Croatia will actually finish two all?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
So, do you reckon Spain v Croatia will actually finish two all?
The way they both are playing then no! Spain don't look as good tonight, but if things stay the same they are going to finish 2nd. I think I'd rather (if we get through) have England playing Italy or Croatia in the next round.
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My allotment blog
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
England will have to play Spain or Italy. I'd rather the latter so, assuming I understand UEFA's rules on these things, we have to beat Ukraine by more goals than France beat Sweden, which looks likely.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Based on reports of fan behavior, I suppose that it is a good thing that Croatia is out.
Somehow, I can only see an England-Italy match going to penalty kicks, which might finally answer the age old question of which team the PK gods hate the most.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
Perhaps someone could help me with a question that has been bugging me for years.
England lined up v Sweden with a 442 formation
Englandstats lists the team as follows: Hart, Johnson, Cole, Gerrard, Lescott, Terry, Parker, Milner, Carroll, Welbeck, Young.
But if Zonalmarking has England's formation correct, shouldn't be thus: Hart, Cole, Lescott, Terry, Johnson, Young, Gerrard, Parker, Milner, Welbeck, Carroll (ie, each line of players moving from left to right).
Can anyone explain? This has been puzzling me for, oh, 20 years?
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
My first thought was that one used the shirt numbers while the other used the formation. That ain't so.
While ZonalMarking described the formation as it played I think EnglandStats has tried to list them in the way football teams were organised a hundred years ago: Goalkeeper, two full-backs, three half-backs and five forwards. That ignores the fact that one of the half-backs (in this case Gerrard) and three forwards (Parker, Milner and Young) play midfield, leaving Welbeck and Carroll up front. That's my best guess.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
In the present economic and political circumstances I doubt if there will be many non-Germans cheering for Germany when they play Greece.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...three forwards (Parker, Milner and Young) play midfield, leaving Welbeck and Carroll up front. That's my best guess.
I am glad my Spurs are being represented by Mr. Parker. I just wish my least-favourite Italian player did not get red-carded in the first half yesterday... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In the present economic and political circumstances I doubt if there will be many non-Germans cheering for Germany when they play Greece.
I suppose in a case of life imitating sport (or maybe the other way around) it is possible that Germany will have to plow through Greece, Italy, and Spain to win the cup.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Can anyone explain? This has been puzzling me for, oh, 20 years?
I don't think there is any well-defined system. It's intuitive to list players kind-of from goalkeeper through to attackers, but I've never seen a consistent method for doing so. Often players are listed in squad order, but as Sioni Sais pointed out, that isn't the case here.
All I can say is that you will sometimes see lists where the four 'lines' are separated by slashes or semicolons. But even then I don't think the order of the players' names within each grouping is supposed to indicate their lateral position.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
One goalkeeping error and England capitalise.
True to form we are now on the back foot once we've gone ahead - Same old England.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Doncha just love it: Ukraine score - but it is disallowed despite having an extra offical on the line! For goodness sake, put him in the stand, with TV playback.
If Sepp Blatter thinks something is wrong, then it's right.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
England will fluff it, and some unexpected team will go on to win. The Ukraine perhaps, or the Czech Republic.
I'd love to see the Czechs do well but I think they'll struggle against Portugal. Apparently they are the first team ever to win a group stage in the Euros with negative goal difference.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
England appear to have made a smash-and-grab raid on Ireland's store of good luck.
And to be fair to the linesman, he should have called the Ukrainian offside so his two mistakes did cancel out.
And another thing that got lost in the furore - how bloody good was CBJT's clearance?! There's life in the old dog yet!
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
England are still in credit on the luck stacks IMO .
Some of us boring elephants have yet to forget Maradona cheating us out of a World Cup Final.
A little more lady luck against an entirely beatable looking Italy and ........ who knows ?
No, don't even think it .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In the present economic and political circumstances I doubt if there will be many non-Germans cheering for Germany when they play Greece.
My boss is Greek. I'll be cheering for Germany.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Thanks to Sweden beating France the question of the Ukrainian goal is moot.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Doncha just love it: Ukraine score - but it is disallowed despite having an extra offical on the line! For goodness sake, put him in the stand, with TV playback.
If Sepp Blatter thinks something is wrong, then it's right.
Update: Sepp Blatter has tweeted that goal line technology must be introduced. Could that be connected to the side that has benefitted by its absence? Should there also be reviews of offsides?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jonah the Whale: My boss is Greek. I'll be cheering for Germany.
Are the Greeks going to use the same 9-0-1 system with which they won in 2004?
At that time, I was living in Tegucigalpa, and the only restaurant close to my house was run by a middle-aged Greek immigrant. He was childishly happy when his country had won, I'm still smiling just remembering that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Sepp Blatter has tweeted that goal line technology must be introduced. Could that be connected to the side that has benefitted by its absence?
That's a bit cynical isn't it? It's probably merely unfortunate timing, like the way penalty shoot outs became a questionable way to decide a final after an English team beat a German team.
JtW
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I think everyone should take a step back and remind themselves that Blatter is a certifiable dickhead, and then ignore anything the man says.
This has been a public service announcement.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Is this the day Portugal bounce the Czechs out of the competition?
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blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Is this the day Portugal bounce the Czechs out of the competition?
It might be but it also seems that the goal is just not quite wide enough for Ronaldo. I think he has now hit the post 4 times so far in the Euros.
Did anyone else feel slightly lost last night as well with no football on?
Tom
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Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Day:
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Is this the day Portugal bounce the Czechs out of the competition?
It might be but it also seems that the goal is just not quite wide enough for Ronaldo. I think he has now hit the post 4 times so far in the Euros.
Did anyone else feel slightly lost last night as well with no football on?
Tom
Yes. The upside was that with no football nor cricket I found this 'other person' in the house who describes herself as 'wife'. We got on very well and there could be something in this
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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