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Source: (consider it) Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
mrs whibley
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
It's how it's done in almost all RC Masses (except for all the exceptions people are now sure to mention). We're in procession, the elements aren't.

I've only been to 4 RC Masses over the last 30 years (one of these in Italy), and obviously didn't receive, but this rings a bell (no pun intended, well maybe a little one). Maybe the Pisky place was higher up the candle than it otherwise appeared!

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
What are the differences in the English Missal, American Missal, and Anglican Missals. I've never heard any satisfactory answer that was laid out in a coherent way.

My parish uses the American Missal - I am told it is less fussy to use (ie better laid out) than the Anglican Missal.
Considerably better laid out as it happens. When I was a seminarian we learned quite a bit about Fr Gavin's Gotcha's from priests used to the American Missal who would be as confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week when confronted with the Anglican Missal in the American Edition (aka the Gavin Missal). The English (5th ed) and American Missals have nice clear layouts. The Gavin Missal does nasty things like introduce a double page turn when you sing the proper preface, and the less said about the borrowing of lessons between Masses the better. We used have a seminary joke about finding a Mass Propers in the Gavin Missal which consisted entirely of references to seven other sets of propers!

PD

[ed 4 speeling]

[ 01. April 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: PD ]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mrs whibley:
However, after I had taken the bread I stood like an idiot for what felt like half an hour, but was actually probably about 4 seconds waiting for the wine, before the priest motioned with his head for me to go over to the server with the chalice.

Our (TEC) shack does this for heavily-attended services, when having everyone kneel at the altar rail would make communion take too long, but not at a normally-attended service. Our priest will make an announcement when this happens, otherwise everyone gets all flustered when a pair of EMs turn up at the back of the Nave and the ushers start to send some people "backwards".

I've also had communion like this in a couple of C of E places, but those were at weddings, so I don't know whether it was standard practice for those churches.

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Olaf
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We do a walking continuous distribution of communion. It goes much faster for us than kneeling. It's especially helpful for services with higher-than-usual attendance.
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PD
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The words of administration set the pace in our shack, so it makes no difference as to whether we use the rail or do "Drive-thru Communion." As a result we always use the rail as it reduces the traffic chaos.

PD

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venbede
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Receiving in the line is the practice at St Paul's Cathedral, or at least it was a few years back, both at the main Sunday do and the 12.30 weekday.

Since I knew the ropes I would considerately get in the (vertical rather than horizontal) row first on weekdays to prevent any Mrs Ws being embarrassed at not knowing what was about to happen.

There's nothing to prevent a communicant kneeling when they come up to the priest/minister of communion.

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mrs whibley
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Receiving in the line is the practice at St Paul's Cathedral, or at least it was a few years back, both at the main Sunday do and the 12.30 weekday.

Since I knew the ropes I would considerately get in the (vertical rather than horizontal) row first on weekdays to prevent any Mrs Ws being embarrassed at not knowing what was about to happen.

There's nothing to prevent a communicant kneeling when they come up to the priest/minister of communion.

Thank you venbede, on behalf of any embarrassable Mrs Ws you may encounter. Thankfully I am pretty unembarrassable myself, or I would not have allowed myself to be put in that position. It is a pitfall awaiting the unwarier!

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venbede
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On the other hand it may be I'm just a hopeless liturgical show-off.

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Percy B
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Is there a modern language version of the Regina Coeli in common use? I mean anthem and the prayer after it.

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leo
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Yes - at All Saints Clifton, Bristol.

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Bishops Finger
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There's a modernised version of the anthem in The Daily Office SSF (Franciscan), and I daresay the prayer could be updated easily ad lib.

Ian J.

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Boadicea Trott
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What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)? Your Grace or My Lord ?

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Jon in the Nati
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'Your grace' almost always flies pretty well for Anglican prelates. Some prefer to be called 'Bishop X' in more casual conversation, but its always best to be more formal at first.

The only big exception would be if this archbishop were a Privy Counsellor, in which case I think 'My lord' might be appropriate. I don't know if former PCs continue to be addressed as such; not being from the UK, I am open to correction on this or any related matter.

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Angloid
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I would never address anyone - peer of the realm or father in God - as My Lord. Close to blasphemy as far as I'm concerned.

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Sergius-Melli
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quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)? Your Grace or My Lord ?

In England by convention retired Archbishops (in fact any Bishop who sat in the House of Lords as a Lord Spiritual) is made a Lord Temporal, so a retired Archbishop would correctly be addressed as My Lord.

As for other Bishops elsewhere I don't know, and retired Bishops I've met I know them in a personal capacity so it's different...

[ 06. April 2013, 21:10: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]

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malik3000
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OK Eccles Crew, i have a question re the Daily Office tomorrow (Western rites - Anglican or Roman) re Evening Prayer/Evensong/Vespers. Tomorrow is the 2nd Sunday of Easter (a/k/a Low Sunday or Divine Mercy Sunday). Monday will be the date of the transferred Feast of the Annunciation.

Will Sunday evening's EP be of the Sunday (i.e. the last EP of the Easter Octave) or will it be 1st Vespers/EP of the Feast of the Annunciation?

I suspect there may be variant uses, though both universalis.com (Roman Rite LoH) and the CofE daily office site at oremus.org both have it as the 2nd vespers/EP of the Sunday.

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Jon in the Nati
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What is on Universalis is correct, at least according to the table in my 1962 Roman Breviary. When a first class Sunday coincides with a universal first class feast, the Sunday office trumps. The principle, I guess, is that a first class Sunday trumps everything else. Presumably, in the new LOTH, a Sunday trumps a feast, even when both are solemnities.

Thus, indeed, II Vespers of the Sunday would trump I Vespers of the Annunciation.

[ 07. April 2013, 00:14: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I would never address anyone - peer of the realm or father in God - as My Lord. Close to blasphemy as far as I'm concerned.

The New Testament seems to be OK using kyrios sometimes as a divine title, sometimes as a human term of respect, and sometimes just to denote someone in a leadership role.

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malik3000
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Thanks for that, Jon in the Nati.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)? Your Grace or My Lord ?

Your Grace is correct by courtesy (being the appropriate address for an Archbishop or a Duke). "My Lord" is correct in fact (being the appropriate address for a Bishop, or a lesser peer.)

A retired Archbishop is, in reality, a Bishop (Archbishop is a post, not a higher order to which he has been consecrated.)

So, for example, the new Master of Magdalene College, Cambridge is The Rt Revd and Rt Hon The Lord Williams of Oystermouth, and as a life peer is properly addressed as "My Lord". He is also Bishop Williams, and as such is also addressed "My Lord."

As a courtesy only, "Archbishop Williams" and "Your Grace" are OK.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I would never address anyone - peer of the realm or father in God - as My Lord. Close to blasphemy as far as I'm concerned.

The New Testament seems to be OK using kyrios sometimes as a divine title, sometimes as a human term of respect, and sometimes just to denote someone in a leadership role.
I'm sure you are right. But being a democrat and a republican (in the British sense of course!) I am uneasy using any titles which suggest that another human being has power over my life, or owns any part of it.

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venbede
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Titles. A relgious community I know decided not to use the title "Reverend Mother" for the head of the community.

Instead they call her "Leader". I don't have the heart to point out they are using the same title as the National Socialist party of Germany in the 30s.

I regard formal titles as a bit of a piss take.

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Peter Owen
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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
In England by convention retired Archbishops (in fact any Bishop who sat in the House of Lords as a Lord Spiritual) is made a Lord Temporal, so a retired Archbishop would correctly be addressed as My Lord.

It's only archbishops who regularly get made lords temporal on retirement. Richard Harries, the former Bishop of Oxford, was made a life peer when he retired, but he was very much the exception.

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I am uneasy using any titles which suggest that another human being has power over my life, or owns any part of it.

I can see how some can feel like that.

However it may be if someone with status says "Don't call me vicar/Father Smith/Chairman/Captain. Call me Mike" it could be relaxing, but it could also be manipulative

Using a formal title can be a way of gaining social power over the title holder or even just maintaining the personal dignity of the other party (I'm not here because we're best mates: I'm here because you have a specific role.)

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
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Angloid
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Oh, I'm not against formal titles. They have their uses. But they should be appropriate. EG Father for a priest or bishop points to their role in the community.

Of course I might well call a pompous bishop My Lord just as you suggest, as a piss-take. But as part of the lubrication for a functioning church/society, which I take titles to be for, it's just WRONG.

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Carys

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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
OK Eccles Crew, i have a question re the Daily Office tomorrow (Western rites - Anglican or Roman) re Evening Prayer/Evensong/Vespers. Tomorrow is the 2nd Sunday of Easter (a/k/a Low Sunday or Divine Mercy Sunday). Monday will be the date of the transferred Feast of the Annunciation.

Will Sunday evening's EP be of the Sunday (i.e. the last EP of the Easter Octave) or will it be 1st Vespers/EP of the Feast of the Annunciation?

I suspect there may be variant uses, though both universalis.com (Roman Rite LoH) and the CofE daily office site at oremus.org both have it as the 2nd vespers/EP of the Sunday.

Printed CofE lectionary we use has an option for first EP of Annunciation I noticed earlier in the week.

On the aka's for today, one that came up on Twitter was 'with a station at St Pancras' or something like that. What's the origin of that title and are there other such titles?

Carys

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Percy B
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I am uneasy using any titles which suggest that another human being has power over my life, or owns any part of it.

I can see how some can feel like that.

However it may be if someone with status says "Don't call me vicar/Father Smith/Chairman/Captain. Call me Mike" it could be relaxing, but it could also be manipulative

Using a formal title can be a way of gaining social power over the title holder or even just maintaining the personal dignity of the other party (I'm not here because we're best mates: I'm here because you have a specific role.)

A formal title can also bring a form of equality. If all the congregants call their minister 'pastor Horace' or 'father Horace' then there isn't the inn group who call him Horace.

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)? Your Grace or My Lord ?

In England by convention retired Archbishops (in fact any Bishop who sat in the House of Lords as a Lord Spiritual) is made a Lord Temporal, so a retired Archbishop would correctly be addressed as My Lord.

As for other Bishops elsewhere I don't know, and retired Bishops I've met I know them in a personal capacity so it's different...

Archbishops yes, other bishops no. It was noted as unusual when Lord Herries (formerly Oxon) was made a peer. There are indeed some former diocesans, but not by any means all or most.

John

[x-post with Peter Owen]

[ 07. April 2013, 22:48: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)?

"Glad you could be with us, I'm sure you're just dying for a nice sit-down and a cup of coffee".

We're not Anglicans, you see.

[ 07. April 2013, 22:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
'Your grace' almost always flies pretty well for Anglican prelates. Some prefer to be called 'Bishop X' in more casual conversation, but its always best to be more formal at first.

The only big exception would be if this archbishop were a Privy Counsellor, in which case I think 'My lord' might be appropriate. I don't know if former PCs continue to be addressed as such; not being from the UK, I am open to correction on this or any related matter.

PCs are PCs until they die (usual) or are expelled from the Privy COuncil (very rare). No title of honour attaches to being a member of the Privy COuncil.

The two English Archbishops are PCs, I expect that London and Durham are as well. It would be, I think, unusual for any other bishop to be sworn of the Privy COuncil (which is, remember, a political body) except for some specific reason. But on that, I am subject to correction.

Canadian bishops are never sworn of the (Canadian) Privy COUncil, though just about anyone else seems to be these days, because of a variety of security requirements that the oath is deemed to fulfill.

John

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
PCs are PCs until they die (usual) or are expelled from the Privy COuncil (very rare). No title of honour attaches to being a member of the Privy COuncil.
So then, being a Privy Counsellor has no effect on the style of address? I suppose I didn't realise that. Thanks for the clarification.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
So then, being a Privy Counsellor has no effect on the style of address? I suppose I didn't realise that. Thanks for the clarification.

Privy Counsellors are styled Rt Hon (hence The Rt Revd and Rt Hon The Lord Williams of Oystermouth, for example), but this does not affect their address.)
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L'organist
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... actually that should read The Most Revd and Rt Hon Dr The Lord Williams of Oystermouth...

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... actually that should read The Most Revd and Rt Hon Dr The Lord Williams of Oystermouth...

Well, yes and no. 'Cause technically he's not an Archbishop any more, so styling him Most Revd is a courtesy rather than a right.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

On the aka's for today, one that came up on Twitter was 'with a station at St Pancras' or something like that. What's the origin of that title and are there other such titles?

Carys

It's for those Anglicans bound for Rome via the Ordinariate. Board the train at St Pancras with a stop at Ebbsfleet.

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Albertus
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But please note that the special service from St Pancras to Whitby has been cancelled.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
What would be the appropriate way to greet a retired Anglican Archbishop(after a service, for instance)?

"Glad you could be with us, I'm sure you're just dying for a nice sit-down and a cup of coffee".

We're not Anglicans, you see.

GIN if they're high church.

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L'organist
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quote:
Originally quoted by Leo
GIN if they're high church.

No! Champagne if they're really high, Gin if they only think they are.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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leo
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# 1458

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Guess so - we had champers after the Easter Vigil mass - but only one glass per head.

Can't get pissed on that, can you?

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Angloid
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Was that at the Cathedral? Or did you come home for it?

Can't imagine Liverpool Cathedral being so hospitable. They even make us bring our own oils to be blessed.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Was that at the Cathedral? Or did you come home for it?

Can't imagine Liverpool Cathedral being so hospitable. They even make us bring our own oils to be blessed.

In the Cathedral's chapter house.

The dean begged us to come because he couldn't manage to drink it all on his own.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
OK Eccles Crew, i have a question re the Daily Office tomorrow (Western rites - Anglican or Roman) re Evening Prayer/Evensong/Vespers. Tomorrow is the 2nd Sunday of Easter (a/k/a Low Sunday or Divine Mercy Sunday). Monday will be the date of the transferred Feast of the Annunciation.

Will Sunday evening's EP be of the Sunday (i.e. the last EP of the Easter Octave) or will it be 1st Vespers/EP of the Feast of the Annunciation?

I suspect there may be variant uses, though both universalis.com (Roman Rite LoH) and the CofE daily office site at oremus.org both have it as the 2nd vespers/EP of the Sunday.

Printed CofE lectionary we use has an option for first EP of Annunciation I noticed earlier in the week.

On the aka's for today, one that came up on Twitter was 'with a station at St Pancras' or something like that. What's the origin of that title and are there other such titles?

Carys

Way back when the Bishop of Rome's Mass used to move around the principal churches of the city. The Roman Missal therefore came to contain the location of the 'bishop's mass' St Mary Major, St John Lateran, St Peter's, etc.. A quaint old custom, to be sure.

+PD

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Forthview
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During Lent the bishop ofRome used to celebrate Mass in different churches of the city,visiting the people in the various districts.These Masses were called 'Station Masses',as PD says.Until Vatican 2 a Roman Missal would contain for each of the days of Lent the Station church.
If you can find an old Roman Missal and perhaps you will find this in the English Missal,look for example at Ash Wednesday 'Statio ad S.Sabinam' Station at Saint Sabina .It is said that pope John xxiii had his inspiration to call the Second Vatican Council while attending the Ash Wednesday service in this church.
Of course in recent years the pope did not actually attend all the Masses in these churches,but like many other things it remained in the Misaal (perhaps a bit like the prayer for the Holy roman Emperor).
Of late in a good number of Catholic dioceses the custom of Lenten Station Masses has been revived with the bishop leading a Lenten service in different areas of the diocese.Usually a copy of the Creed is given to those seeking baptism or full communion at Easter.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Way back when the Bishop of Rome's Mass used to move around the principal churches of the city. The Roman Missal therefore came to contain the location of the 'bishop's mass' St Mary Major, St John Lateran, St Peter's, etc.. A quaint old custom, to be sure.

+PD

The American Missal propers for one of the Lenten ferias (can't remember which one at the moment) refer to Sts Cosmas & Damien, which is a relic of one of these Station Masses. I remember that day being very confusing for a seminarian who asked me why we were using violet if it was their feast day.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Forthview
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If this Missal is a copy of the Roman Missal then it is Feria quinta post Dominicam III Quadragesimae Statio ad Ss Cosmam et Damianum (Thursday after 3rd Sunday of Lent.An old Missal explains : The 'Station' on this thursday is at the church of Ss Cosmas and Damian,hence the reference to these saints in the proper of the Mass.Since this is Mid Lent day there is somewhat of the character of a Saint's feast day celebration.The Gospel to be read reminds us of the tradition that Cosmas and Damian were physicians.
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
If this Missal is a copy of the Roman Missal then it is Feria quinta post Dominicam III Quadragesimae Statio ad Ss Cosmam et Damianum (Thursday after 3rd Sunday of Lent.An old Missal explains : The 'Station' on this thursday is at the church of Ss Cosmas and Damian,hence the reference to these saints in the proper of the Mass.Since this is Mid Lent day there is somewhat of the character of a Saint's feast day celebration.The Gospel to be read reminds us of the tradition that Cosmas and Damian were physicians.

That's the one exactly. The American Missal adds to the BCP propers for Sundays (and the holy days retained by the Episcopal Church) propers for additional days not in the Episcopal kalendar. Thus the ferias in Lent, feast days of numerous saints, and a selection of votive Masses are provided, translated from the Latin into Cranmerian English. And minor propers from the Roman Rite are added to the BCP collects, epistles & gospels as well. Not used as much as it was 50-60 years ago, but the continuing Anglicans and Western Rite Orthodox are keeping it going.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Percy B
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Bishops say

Peace be with you

In the liturgy, instead of
The Lord be with you

Is this just once at the start or throughout the Eucharist?

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Mary, a priest??

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dj_ordinaire
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Copied over from Cantus Firmus on the closed thread on the Dome of St. Paul's:

quote:
Is there any past history (prior to the 1960's) of a dome or nave altar at St. Paul's? Obviously there was originally a choir screen, which would have been rather formidable barrier.
Have at ye!

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Flinging wide the gates...

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FCB

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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Bishops say

Peace be with you

In the liturgy, instead of
The Lord be with you

Is this just once at the start or throughout the Eucharist?

In the Roman Rite it is just at the beginning of the liturgy.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Basilica
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I've just been casting an eye over the Church of England's wedding liturgy, specifically the order for marriage within a celebration of Holy Communion. There is a rather curious alternative provision, which I find somewhat bizarre: the blessing of the marriage can take place either after the proclamation (the obvious place) or after the Lord's Prayer. This seems odd to me: why on earth would you want to break up the Eucharistic liturgy in this way? What theological point is it making?
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