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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Is that the motto for his arms? If not, good grief... and if so, what a pity.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Interesting version of a tippet.
Any Anglican style gurus care to comment?
Under the seal(s) of the diocese of York, it says: UNWORTHY SERVANT OF A MOST WORTHY LORD
Oh my dear! . ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
This Anglican style guru thinks that tippet might be conveniently mislaid and none too quickly, either. Perhaps it was a present sent after him from Uganda ... you know, something from the Ugandan rite.
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Wyclif
Apprentice
# 5391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Interesting version of a tippet.
Any Anglican style gurus care to comment?
I'm against tat on a tippet. It seems counterintuitive, as if those doing it are confusing the scarf with a stole.
Perhaps I'm simply a "less is more" kind of fellow, but to me this is the ecclesiastical version of the pinky ring and jewelry on men (other than the wedding band).
I'm also against the practise of chaplains putting medals on the scarf or making the mistake of using it as a sash, Boy Scout-style.
Another practical reason to avoid this is that this is what children tend to see. Is your school or diocesan tat really what you want them to associate you with? I know I don't, but YMMV.
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No trees were harmed in creating this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Knowing preaching scarves and aware that, that is pretty decent by some standards, I googled images of them. O dear, o dear, I wish I hadn't. I know ministers in my denomination usually have little taste in tat, but to find a tat dealer actually pandering to them ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) . Before people ask it incorporates the Old form of our Logo.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Knowing preaching scarves and aware that, that is pretty decent by some standards, I googled images of them. O dear, o dear, I wish I hadn't. I know ministers in my denomination usually have little taste in tat, but to find a tat dealer actually pandering to them . Before people ask it incorporates the Old form of our Logo.
Jengie
That doesn't seem particularly horrendous to me, although I dislike decoration on tippets/preaching scarves unless for military purposes.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
No it isn't particularly bad but there are really two sorts of preaching scarves in use in the URC.
The old school (any colour and embroidered decoration you like as long as it is all black, alright a tasteful motif in gold is permitted if you are former Presby). This lot bought theirs on ordination and wore it for their entire ministry. Most of the time you would not even realise they are wearing it (black scarf against a black cassock is not highly visible)
Then there are modern highly colourful, highly personal one that is made by a the skilled embroiderer they happen to encounter. Most of the second stoles have a story behind them and try to express something specific to the cleric. They speak almost the opposite message of the other school and a cleric may well have several marking different aspects of their ministry.
Now I understand why both schools go for their approach. The horror is this is not fish nor fowl nor good red herring. It speaks too loudly to be the first school, yet is not unique enough to be of the second.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I have read here about the indoor hats, the liturgical hats, of the clergy, and that's been interesting and good fun.
Now what about the outdoor hats? That is the hats worn in day to day work, sometimes, perhaps with cassocks, sometimes without.
I know there will be some who will advocate the Canterbury cap, and others may favour the Saturno.
Have we other suggestions?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Thanks seasick for the transfer, and apologies for the wrong place of posting, I am not always clear about what forms a distinct new thread and what does not. I thought the taller thread rwas about liturgical gesture. Sorry.
On hats, I have been thinking a beret could work for some, and they do come in different colours. But colour coded for clerical rank could be a bit too much. Although I believe the chord on the Saturno has been seen in different colours.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Large black felt as worn by Flann O'Brien/ Myles na gCopaleen/ Brian Nolan* - see picture here (he's the one in the middle.) I believe he used to buy them at a (presumably RC) clerical outfitter's in Dublin.
*One and the same man, of course.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
On hats, I have been thinking a beret could work for some, and they do come in different colours. But colour coded for clerical rank could be a bit too much.
And confusing, too: I wouldn't want to mix up bishops with paratroopers.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Yes, Albertus, I like it the floppies is slightly risqué!
I am not sure hats' names. What's the name of that one?
I love those floppy hats that some PhD people wear - rather medieval looking. I guess they are more ornamental than everyday wear though. But I suspect things like the Canterbury cap come from a similar stable, and I guess may not have been confined to the clergy.
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Mary, a priest??
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
The PhD bonnet? Yes, I've always fancied one- unfortunately my own PhD (University of Wales) only entitles me to a mortar board. A rather superior mortar board, mind, but still a mortar board (which is, BTW, related to both the Canterbury cap and the biretta).
Can't tell you the name of the hat Nolan is wearing- generically I'd call it a fedora but it may have some special name of its own. Manipled Mutineer or someone like that would know.
[ 22. February 2013, 14:02: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Yes probably ceremonial. When it was more common to see clergy with headdress and choir dress, doctors carried/carry the ordinary mortar board.
The canons of Exeter still wear gowns (I believe)over their cassocks on their way over from the Close. I can't remember if they carry mortarboards.
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sebhyatt
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
what exactly is a shovel hat (worn by CofE clergy in the 19thC regardless of churchmanship)?
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sebhyatt
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
This is one of His Timness's favorite hats. I believe it's called a caput casei.
Who is that guy, Hart?
Here is a hat, worn by an archbishop. Was he the last to wear them? Are they even made now?
I have heard the term 'shovel hat' sebby but not a clear idea of why it was called that or indeed what it is.
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Mary, a priest??
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No, he wasn't the last- that's a Canterbury cap, as also worn (and it's probably one of the few things they had in common) by his successor Michael Ramsey. You know, the more I hear about and see pictures of ++Fisher, the more I find myself drawn to him. Ramsey hated him, of course, and I'm sure that that is why he has had such a low reputation until very recently- that and being a rather traditional establishment figure just as society was changing. But Fisher or Ramsey, if you had to make a choice? Well, Ramsey was of course a great saint and a fine scholar and a wit in a rather catty Cambridgey way - but I'm not sure I'd rate him over Fisher, not sure at all.
Anyway, enough of this tangent. Oxford online dictionaries decsibe a shovel hat as 'a black felt hat with a low round crown and a broad brim turned up at the sides, formerly worn especially by clergymen'; think Donald Pleasance playing Trollope's Mr Harding (left) - and, come to think of it, Nigel Hawthorne as Archdeacon Grantly.
[ 22. February 2013, 20:10: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wyclif:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Interesting version of a tippet.
Any Anglican style gurus care to comment?
I'm against tat on a tippet.
I'm also against the practise of chaplains putting medals on the scarf
The wearing of medal ribbons/medals on a chaplain's scarf is mandatory in the dress regulations of (I believe) all three branches of the Armed Forces. All denominations do so on the black scarf, expect Roman Catholic clergy who do so on a purple scarf (not stole).
It is therefore not a personal whim or choice, but compulsory dress - like other Corps with their own distinctive and mandatory dress.
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sebhyatt
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Splendid, Albertus. Thanks for the pointers to shovel hats. Our dear friend Ms Google came up with this lovely shot from Barchester with the warden and archdeacon both being alarmed and wearing shovel (why shovel?) hats.
Here it is
I am not sure about your view on Michael Ramsey, I would need to read more to be convinced - I have never thought of him as 'catty'.
But on Fisher I think you may make a worthwhile point. I think he will be rehabilitated a little. I think he suffered quite a bit because of not keeping quiet in retirement.
Back though to hats and the clergy... I will try and find a clerical hatter online and see what wears they can show us.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Who is that guy, Hart?
Timothy Cardinal Dolan.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Who is that guy, Hart?
Timothy Cardinal Dolan.
Thanks.
Not a man for a Canterbury cap then!
But he does have a variety of hats Ms Google reveals:
This jaunty number gives us a new look headgear for clergy, perhaps.
While This is more traditional.
Is he renowned for his hats?
[ 22. February 2013, 20:57: Message edited by: Percy B ]
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Mary, a priest??
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Splendid, Albertus. Thanks for the pointers to shovel hats. Our dear friend Ms Google came up with this lovely shot from Barchester with the warden and archdeacon both being alarmed and wearing shovel (why shovel?) hats.
Here it is
...
Thast's the one! Shovel I suppose because flat and turned up at the sides- think of e.g. a coal shovel like this one rather than a spade.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Timothy Cardinal Dolan.
Then-Archbishop of Milwaukee, in my beautiful home state of Wisconsin. For anyone who doesn't know, he is wearing a cheesehead, the de facto state headgear. It is exactly what it sounds like.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Splendid, Albertus. Thanks for the pointers to shovel hats. Our dear friend Ms Google came up with this lovely shot from Barchester with the warden and archdeacon both being alarmed and wearing shovel (why shovel?) hats.
Here it is
...
Thast's the one! Shovel I suppose because flat and turned up at the sides- think of e.g. a coal shovel like this one rather than a spade.
Ah I see it now, thanks, Albertus.
I rather like those shovel hats, and am sorry they are not around now, it seems. They are like a simplified Saturno.
Interestingly the definition Albertus gives indicates that it was not exclusively a clergy hat. I guess in years gone by in the C of E at least there were few hats which were of the clergy only.
However professional men wear hats less, and when they do they are not particularly distinctive. Pity, really!
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No, he wasn't the last- that's a Canterbury cap, as also worn (and it's probably one of the few things they had in common) by his successor Michael Ramsey.
Just to add to this, +Wyn St. David's occassionally wears the beautiful Canterbury Cap I do believe... I might be wrong but it certainly looks right.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Perhaps the answer would be a set of Thinsulate hats in black + the four liturgical colours. Some people could sew crosses, and other liturgical decorations onto them if they wish, like with stoles. Presumably military chaplains would have to sew their medal ribbons onto them.
Do they exist in other countries? They are warm and very convenient.
[ 23. February 2013, 12:17: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Berets were once common pre- and slightly post-Vatican II by Irish RC clerics who were bound by Irish episcopal instruction to wear hats when in public, but who wanted to be seen as slightly daring and who wished to flaunt their French or Spanish academic qualifications. Certainly, the clerical homburg survived among Irish RC clerics well into the 70s.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Perhaps the answer would be a set of Thinsulate hats in black + the four liturgical colours. Some people could sew crosses, and other liturgical decorations onto them if they wish
You're essentially describing a Russian skufia.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Perhaps the answer would be a set of Thinsulate hats in black + the four liturgical colours. Some people could sew crosses, and other liturgical decorations onto them if they wish, like with stoles. Presumably military chaplains would have to sew their medal ribbons onto them.
Do they exist in other countries? They are warm and very convenient.
Army chaplains wear head dress every day. The most usual is the beret which is in the colour of the Corps or unit to which they are chaplain, but always with their RAChD cap badge. Thus an infantry padre would wear an olive green one; Artillery dark blue etc. Chaplains with the Parachute regiment wear maroon and might well have completed 'P' company - the arduous requirements of Paras, but without the weapons component.
They will also have a 'Number Two' hat which is peaked and olive green and worn with barrack dress; there is also the 'Number One' hat which is peaked and very dark blue and formal.
Chaplains are expected to wear head dress when out of doors in uniform, like any other soldier or officer. As well as their distinctive cross worn on their lapels (and a clerical collar worn with barrack dress), the RAChD cap badge would be noticed by passing personnel.
Clearly medal ribbons would not be worn on head dress!
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I have been told by an Anglican bishop (Australian, but not Sydney!)that a bishop's or priest's hat (street wear) should have a sort of rosette worked into the hatband at the center front, indicating that he is a licensed to hear confessions. (This in response to a question about the curious band on his hat.
I've never heard or read this elsewhere, nor have I seen this style on others. Do you think he was putting me on? or is this in fact a tradition?
I should add that said prelate was remarkably precise in liturgy and vesture, but was at the same time a bit of a joker.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been told by an Anglican bishop (Australian, but not Sydney!)that a bishop's or priest's hat (street wear) should have a sort of rosette worked into the hatband at the center front, indicating that he is a licensed to hear confessions. (This in response to a question about the curious band on his hat.
I've never heard or read this elsewhere, nor have I seen this style on others. Do you think he was putting me on? or is this in fact a tradition?
I should add that said prelate was remarkably precise in liturgy and vesture, but was at the same time a bit of a joker.
That bishop is not only a joker but something of a wag setting you up for possible embarrassment. He must know that formerly, when it was done, that little black rosette was worn at the front of the hat of Anglican church dignitaries. The hat rosette went along with the frock coat, clerical apron and gaiters. Such a rig was worn by those dignitaries of all shades of churchmanship. The hat rosette as part of that outfit that was certainly worn by the most extreme Evangelical partisan and signified the dignity of his higher clerical office and not any license to hear confessions
Since priests of the Church of England and other Anglican venues are not specially "licensed" to hear confessions, perhaps that bishop is referring to some obscure Roman Catholic clerical hat custom. But even then the great majority of all Roman Catholic priests with any pastoral connection or responsibility at all have the faculty of hearing confessions. Something tells me the rosette story has roots in some antique European Roman Catholic clerical hat custom, possibly French, but that's just a guess.
*
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have been told by an Anglican bishop (Australian, but not Sydney!)that a bishop's or priest's hat (street wear) should have a sort of rosette worked into the hatband at the center front, ...
I haven't seen one of those for years. The hat itself was usually a homberg. I've never heard the explanation though. I just thought it was some sort of old fashioned clerical oddity.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Not just for gaitered dignitaries- canons too, I understand.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Augustine, I don't understand that point about berets and flaunting spanish / french academic connections - who so? Just by wearing a beret?
Is there a clerical hatter's shop in London? I wonder this, because their catalogue may suggest what the well dressed member of the clergy is wearing for outdoor use on their heads.
[ 24. February 2013, 21:18: Message edited by: Percy B ]
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboi:
Is there a definitive distinction between a cotta and a surplice? I tend to think a cotta is above the knee, but can't really pin it down definitively.
Not really. Surplices tend to have long skirts and sleeves, while cottas are short. But a long cotta or short surplice could be called by either name.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Also, cottas tend to have square necks and be pleated while surplices tend have round necks and be gathered. But there are no definitive rules as liturgically they're the same garment just filtered through different history.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Peter Anson compared cottas to mini skirts, surplices to maxis.
Racy and exciting vs dull and dowdy?
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Peter Anson compared cottas to mini skirts, surplices to maxis.
Racy and exciting vs dull and dowdy?
Yes, with one you can pretty much see everything and little is left to the imagination; the other covers pretty much everything. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
See the attached YouTube segment from the Bach Christmas Oratorio somewhere in Bavaria?
First view at approx 1:03
I had always heard of 'lace from the t*ts down', but here it is IRL!
The trebles look rather more Italian, IMO.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Peter Anson compared cottas to mini skirts, surplices to maxis.
Racy and exciting vs dull and dowdy?
If you find priests in lace cottas racy and exciting, perhaps the time has come to discuss this with your spiritual director. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Peter Anson compared cottas to mini skirts, surplices to maxis.
Racy and exciting vs dull and dowdy?
If you find priests in lace cottas racy and exciting, perhaps the time has come to discuss this with your spiritual director.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Peter Anson compared cottas to mini skirts, surplices to maxis.
Racy and exciting vs dull and dowdy?
The more that is hidden, the more exciting.
Perhaps there is a model. here, of two sorts of theology: one full of certainty and lacking doubt; the other more subtle and needing further probing, a journey of uncovering.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If we insist that everything we do in a church must be deeply symbolic of something - anything -, one can perceive the truth/priestly qualities through the lace of a cotta as through a glass darkly, whereas a surplice conceals them, more as a treasure buried in a field.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Can't tell you the name of the hat Nolan is wearing- generically I'd call it a fedora but it may have some special name of its own. Manipled Mutineer or someone like that would know.
You called? I don't think there is a generally-accepted term for a wide-brimmed hat of this sort over and above fedora, so that is what I would go for.
To reference some later posts, I have an old picture of a clergyman in a homburg but no rosette is visible, alas!
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Leo:
Perhaps there is a model. here, of two sorts of theology: one full of certainty and lacking doubt; the other more subtle and needing further probing, a journey of uncovering.
quote:
Posted by Enoch:
whereas a surplice conceals them, more as a treasure buried in a field.
I must say that, although my theology is more akin to Leo's first type, I am quite happy that my surplice conceals as much as it does when I am wearing it. I need all the help I can get.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Can't tell you the name of the hat Nolan is wearing- generically I'd call it a fedora but it may have some special name of its own. Manipled Mutineer or someone like that would know.
You called? I don't think there is a generally-accepted term for a wide-brimmed hat of this sort over and above fedora, so that is what I would go for.
Thank you. I will take that as definitive!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
In my years in Chicago this sort of fedora with a wider-than-usual brim was called by a priest friend who wore one, a 'Borsalino,' but IIRC that was the name of the manufacturer, not the style.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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