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Source: (consider it) Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
When the line was clear he condemned all violence. He then didn't answer a question on a formulaic condemnation of the IRA alone which personally I think is reasonable having condemned all violence.

But why not? It's the simplest thing to do. He could have said 'Yes', or 'Absolutely' or 'Of course' and that might've been the end of the matter. If he does indeed condemn all violence then he also presumably condemns IRA violence so why not just say so clearly?

And this is an area where he does need to speak clearly, given his past behaviour. If he does actually have any ambitions towards high office then this is something he needs to sort out. The people of Britain aren't going to elect as their Prime Minister a man who can't straight-forwardly condemn the violent actions of a terrorist group which plagued this country for decades, no matter how attractive his policy on renationalising the railways.

[ 27. August 2016, 07:29: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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mdijon
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For the same reason that if someone persistently asked me "Do you condemn black on white racism" I wouldn't want to simply say "absolutely" and move on. I would say "I condemn all racism". It is an unreasonable focus for the conversation.

Having said that there were a few better ways to handle the conversation that he didn't take. He's not going to be a good party leader or prime minister in my book and this shows poor ability with the media and the wider public. But it doesn't show a covert IRA supporter.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

What is it with Corbyn? Is he seen as someone who might realistically challenge privilege? Change the shape of society?

The key word is realistically. I'm sure it is realistic to see him leading the Labour Party as a protest movement against privilege and social injustice (rather like the suffragette movement of the 19th and early 20th centuries.) But the Labour Party is HM Opposition in Parliament. And he cannot realistically lead them when they have lost confidence in him. Nor can those MPs be unseated until the next general election. So he has no realistic chance of leading Labour to victory at that election. And surely he will be too old to lead the Party into the one after that.

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

Is it actually fear of competence that lies behind the charge of incompetence?

No, I don't think it is fear of competence, at least so far as the PLP MPs are concerned. It is demonstrable incompetence. And this is not just a plot by those who never wanted him in the first place. He has lost the confidence of those who were prepared to give him a chance, by his own actions and inactions. And there are public statements to that effect.

He can lead a protest movement. He can't lead a parliamentary party. That's the verdict of the MPs. It will not be the verdict of the Party Members. Result? Political wilderness for a decade at least. Unless he goes.

[ 27. August 2016, 11:43: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
For the same reason that if someone persistently asked me "Do you condemn black on white racism" I wouldn't want to simply say "absolutely" and move on. I would say "I condemn all racism". It is an unreasonable focus for the conversation.

I'm afraid I disagree. If a man wants to be Prime Minister of the UK, I don't think asking him whether he specifically condemns violence perpetrated by a terrorist group against British armed forces and civilians over 30 years to be an 'unreasonable focus'.
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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
For the same reason that if someone persistently asked me "Do you condemn black on white racism" I wouldn't want to simply say "absolutely" and move on. I would say "I condemn all racism". It is an unreasonable focus for the conversation.

I think that would be a fair comparison if the question had been asked of a random Northern Irish Catholic. But Mr Corbyn's support for the IRA is well documented. He attended and spoke at commemorative events for IRA terrorists. He voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement. He was on the editorial board of London Labour Briefing, which initially condemned the Brighton bombing and then retracted the condemnation. (I don't believe Mr Corbyn personally wrote the retraction - but compare and contrast Boris Johnson's acts after a Spectator editorial decided to repeat slurs against Hillsborough victims.)

To a certain extent I agree with you that he was being made to jump through a hoop, but it was a hoop of his own making.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
...but compare and contrast Boris Johnson's acts after a Spectator editorial decided to repeat slurs against Hillsborough victims.)

To a certain extent I agree with you that he was being made to jump through a hoop, but it was a hoop of his own making.

Interesting contrast to make. Here is Johnson refusing to jump through a hoop as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right of course - I wouldn't see either of these two as a successful PM.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
For the same reason that if someone persistently asked me "Do you condemn black on white racism" I wouldn't want to simply say "absolutely" and move on. I would say "I condemn all racism". It is an unreasonable focus for the conversation.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm afraid I disagree. If a man wants to be Prime Minister of the UK, I don't think asking him whether he specifically condemns violence perpetrated by a terrorist group against British armed forces and civilians over 30 years to be an 'unreasonable focus'.

But after the answer "I condemn all violence" to continue asking the same question as if nothing has been said is unreasonable.

In a way that's fine, it is a journalist's job to ask unreasonable questions and politicians should deal with them. He could have answered much better, and the journalist was doing his job. Corbyn didn't deal with it well, but it doesn't make him an IRA supporter.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

What is it with Corbyn? Is he seen as someone who might realistically challenge privilege? Change the shape of society?

The key word is realistically. I'm sure it is realistic to see him leading the Labour Party as a protest movement against privilege and social injustice (rather like the suffragette movement of the 19th and early 20th centuries.) But the Labour Party is HM Opposition in Parliament. And he cannot realistically lead them when they have lost confidence in him. Nor can those MPs be unseated until the next general election. So he has no realistic chance of leading Labour to victory at that election. And surely he will be too old to lead the Party into the one after that.

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

Is it actually fear of competence that lies behind the charge of incompetence?

No, I don't think it is fear of competence, at least so far as the PLP MPs are concerned. It is demonstrable incompetence. And this is not just a plot by those who never wanted him in the first place. He has lost the confidence of those who were prepared to give him a chance, by his own actions and inactions. And there are public statements to that effect.

He can lead a protest movement. He can't lead a parliamentary party. That's the verdict of the MPs. It will not be the verdict of the Party Members. Result? Political wilderness for a decade at least. Unless he goes.

The party members have listened to the arguments of the PLP and remain un-persuaded by them. Now it's the PLP's turn to listen.
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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
Indeed, the mass exodus of members that would follow a Smith victory could only make matters worse.

OK. Assume a mass exodus precipitates Labour membership figures down to 2008 levels, when it stood at 176,891. The latest Conservative figure, which admittedly is from 2013, is 149,800.

I would suggest, therefore, that though the loss of so many members would indeed be damaging, it would be far less damaging than losing the support of 80% of your MPs.

quote:
The party members have listened to the arguments of the PLP and remain un-persuaded by them. Now it's the PLP's turn to listen.
And where does the opinion of the electorate fit into this scheme?

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:

The party members have listened to the arguments of the PLP and remain un-persuaded by them. Now it's the PLP's turn to listen.

The party members will decide who the leader will be. Let's say it's Jeremy. Then the PLP MPs are stuck with him, despite their lack of confidence in him, and will have to make the best of it somehow. And Jeremy himself will have to do something to regain the confidence lost. Minds won't change automatically as a result of the membership vote. Those MPs have good reasons for their lack of confidence.

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Martin60
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I don't understand. What is this confidence that the PLP lack?

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't understand. What is this confidence that the PLP lack?

They came into parliament (or the vast majority of them did) as members of a party that had a very fixed idea of what it was, what their leader was and how both party and leader functioned. They are now members of a parliamentary party which looks very little different (other than smaller), but of which the leader is very different, and which cannot function in anything like its former fashion because they don't trust what they don't recognise and the new leader doesn't trust what is not a product of his own mind.

This feels like a stalemate, and the longer it goes on the less I like the prospects of our having anything other than a tory government during my lifetime. As in my previous posting phase, I don't want a mauve tory government any more than I do a blue one, but on the other hand, neither side within the labour party can afford to wait for the other to die, because the country will die first.

The loyal opposition seems to have forgotten that it has a job to do opposing the government, rather than itself.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
And where does the opinion of the electorate fit into this scheme?

There must be no compromise with the electorate!
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't understand. What is this confidence that the PLP lack?

It is not a "what" that they lack confidence in, it is a "who". 172 of the MPs have no confidence in Jeremy as Labour Party leader, That's what the motion said. They might have been a variety of reasons why they voted the way they did and some of them have given voice to those. And the reasons have been explored at some length.

But the bottom line is that they don't trust him as leader. Some never did, some lost trust on the way. Trust is a personal thing. It isn't changed because other people say "well I trust him". Those who vote that way haven't had to live with him as as leader of HM Opposition in Parliament.

[ 27. August 2016, 18:05: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't understand. What is this confidence that the PLP lack?

It is not a "what" that they lack confidence in, it is a "who". 172 of the MPs have no confidence in Jeremy as Labour Party leader, That's what the motion said. They might have been a variety of reasons why they voted the way they did and some of them have given voice to those. And the reasons have been explored at some length.

But the bottom line is that they don't trust him as leader. Some never did, some lost trust on the way. Trust is a personal thing. It isn't changed because other people say "well I trust him". Those who vote that way haven't had to live with him as as leader of HM Opposition in Parliament.

On the subject of trust and the disorganisation at the heart of Corbyn's team, just watch the vice news documentary. Remember they were chosen as they were regarded as sympathetic.
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't understand. What is this confidence that the PLP lack?

It is not a "what" that they lack confidence in, it is a "who". 172 of the MPs have no confidence in Jeremy as Labour Party leader, That's what the motion said. They might have been a variety of reasons why they voted the way they did and some of them have given voice to those. And the reasons have been explored at some length.

But the bottom line is that they don't trust him as leader. Some never did, some lost trust on the way. Trust is a personal thing. It isn't changed because other people say "well I trust him". Those who vote that way haven't had to live with him as as leader of HM Opposition in Parliament.

Sorry, I'm none the wiser. What is this confidence in Corbyn they don't have? And this 'trust' you've introduced?

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
Indeed, the mass exodus of members that would follow a Smith victory could only make matters worse.

OK. Assume a mass exodus precipitates Labour membership figures down to 2008 levels, when it stood at 176,891. The latest Conservative figure, which admittedly is from 2013, is 149,800.

I would suggest, therefore, that though the loss of so many members would indeed be damaging, it would be far less damaging than losing the support of 80% of your MPs.

quote:
The party members have listened to the arguments of the PLP and remain un-persuaded by them. Now it's the PLP's turn to listen.
And where does the opinion of the electorate fit into this scheme?

It is a 'scheme' known as elections.
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mdijon
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And do you think it's possible that the PLP, for all their faults and craven scheming and inability to listen, are thinking ahead to those elections and looking at the opinion polls and wondering about the likely outcome?

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What is this confidence in Corbyn they don't have? And this 'trust' you've introduced?

Read up the thread to where we took some trouble linking to some of the stories of individual PLP members who had struggled to work with Corbyn. Maybe all the stories are lies but it doesn't read that way to me.

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Barnabas62
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Martin, to lack confidence in a person is always about competence or trust. Think sport. In a cricket team, the strike bowlers lose confidence in a wicket-keeper because he drops catches. That's not just about his technical competence. They learn from his actions that they can't trust him to have a safe pair of hands.

Analogous arguments apply to captains of teams. Hashim Amla is a great batsman but he wasn't a good captain, which he and the team eventually recognised. The responsibilities of captaincy damaged his form as a batsman and his performance as a captain damaged unity and morale in the team. Amla stood down both for his own sake and the team's. Nobody questioned Amla's worth as a human being or his talent as a cricketer, captaincy just wasn't his thing; he couldn't be trusted with that responsibility.

I haven't introduced the concept of trust; it is integral to the argument.

[ 28. August 2016, 07:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What is this confidence in Corbyn they don't have? And this 'trust' you've introduced?

Read up the thread to where we took some trouble linking to some of the stories of individual PLP members who had struggled to work with Corbyn. Maybe all the stories are lies but it doesn't read that way to me.
Yeah, I remember some of those in the 1500 odd comments. Why would ANY of them be lies? It's ALL about, as in our dispositions here, what we bring to the ... party.

Nice analogy B62, but I don't see the comparison. Where has Jeremy failed to captain his team of shadow secretaries? Especially in the person of the excellent John McDonnell?

The truly egregious Owen Smith would
restore your 'confidence' and you'd place your sacred 'trust' in him?

I don't think so.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
And do you think it's possible that the PLP, for all their faults and craven scheming and inability to listen, are thinking ahead to those elections and looking at the opinion polls and wondering about the likely outcome?

The LAST thing you do, when a Prime Minister is on the way through the exit door, is to create ANY impression of strife among your own ranks, in the opposition. I detect very little in the way of 'thinking'.
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mdijon
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Maybe they are getting many things wrong, but the point is that one has to consider the possibility that Corbyn might not be going down spectacularly well with the greater portion of the electorate even if the portion of the electorate that is the constituency labour party thinks he is great. The PLP want to be returned to power. They are worried that Corbyn isn't going to get them there and those voting for him don't seem to be reassuring in that regard.

Now you may feel that the electorate can be won over, or that purity of expression is more important than electability, or the long-game is the better bet but not engaging with the concern isn't going to help.

[ 28. August 2016, 10:54: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nice analogy B62, but I don't see the comparison. Where has Jeremy failed to captain his team of shadow secretaries? Especially in the person of the excellent John McDonnell?

The truly egregious Owen Smith would
restore your 'confidence' and you'd place your sacred 'trust' in him?

I don't think so.

Jeremy's team in Parliament still has gaps and some folks doing double duty. In cricketing terms he cannot put a full side on the field of play and a number of previous players won't play with him as captain.

So far as confidence in Smith is concerned, based on the support his candidacy has, at least he could put out a full side in Parliament. It's not my confidence he has to win in order to head up HM Opposition.

[ 28. August 2016, 14:01: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
It is a 'scheme' known as elections.

So unless an election is imminent, MPs should act without reference to their constituents?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
The LAST thing you do, when a Prime Minister is on the way through the exit door, is to create ANY impression of strife among your own ranks, in the opposition. I detect very little in the way of 'thinking'.

Because it would have been much more effective to suspend a leadership challenge until such time as the Conservatives united around a new leader - at which point the Conservatives would be in a position to exploit Labour chaos?

[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
It is a 'scheme' known as elections.

So unless an election is imminent, MPs should act without reference to their constituents?
Voters come third to the party whips and constituency branches, which is why contentious legislation is dealt with early on in a term, not in the last year or so.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
It is a 'scheme' known as elections.

So unless an election is imminent, MPs should act without reference to their constituents?
We have seen no evidence whatsoever as to the content of the conversations between MPs and their constituents.
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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
The LAST thing you do, when a Prime Minister is on the way through the exit door, is to create ANY impression of strife among your own ranks, in the opposition. I detect very little in the way of 'thinking'.

Because it would have been much more effective to suspend a leadership challenge until such time as the Conservatives united around a new leader - at which point the Conservatives would be in a position to exploit Labour chaos?

[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

Let me clear your confusion. Had a challenge started this week, it would still be too hasty. T.May is only just back from her walking holiday ......
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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
We have seen no evidence whatsoever as to the content of the conversations between MPs and their constituents.

What would be normal practice for evidencing of constituents views? Polling perhaps?

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
We have seen no evidence whatsoever as to the content of the conversations between MPs and their constituents.

I believe there are laws against making such things public. But the evidence is that MPs' opinion of Mr Corbyn broadly coincides with the electorate's.
quote:
Had a challenge started this week, it would still be too hasty. T.May is only just back from her walking holiday ......
Oh, I see. You think the leadership challenge should wait not just until the new Conservative leader is in place, but until she has had time to get settled, organise her policies and fire up the Tory propaganda machine to her new way of thinking.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
We have seen no evidence whatsoever as to the content of the conversations between MPs and their constituents.

I believe there are laws against making such things public. But the evidence is that MPs' opinion of Mr Corbyn broadly coincides with the electorate's.
quote:
Had a challenge started this week, it would still be too hasty. T.May is only just back from her walking holiday ......
Oh, I see. You think the leadership challenge should wait not just until the new Conservative leader is in place, but until she has had time to get settled, organise her policies and fire up the Tory propaganda machine to her new way of thinking.

There is no law against collating the general topics raised by one's constituents. Given that some of the most 'passionate' EU-remainer MPs are in some of the Leave-voting constituencies, I'd say they have very little interest in what the public have to say, in any case. And the electorates that matter most are those in the Marginals - no studies have been made in that respect (to my knowledge).

And yes, I do think time should have been given for this - not least because a united opposition could have been picking apart the Tory seams, even as they were being stitched together ...

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Callan
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Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:

quote:
And the electorates that matter most are those in the Marginals - no studies have been made in that respect (to my knowledge).
Most of the winnable marginals are English seats currently held by Tory MPs. So it's not unreasonable to deduce that winning over former Tory voters is a fairly key part of any electoral strategy for Labour. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that voters who thought that Ed Miliband wasn't what they were looking for on economic competence and leadership aren't going to fall over themselves to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

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Barnabas62
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Callan, I think Jeremy's supporters see they cannot win that way and so argue in favour of mobilising apathetic and disillusioned former Labour supporters or potential sympathisers. It's seen as a hearts and minds struggle, a desire to win converts to the cause. The notion of a broad centre left coalition seems to have little appeal, leading to 'Tory-lite' government.

I respect that as a principled position but cannot see it producing a Labour government for at least two elections. But I think Corbynite supporters are going to have to have that proved to them via the ballot box. It does feel very much like a rerun of the 1980s.

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Luigi
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Callan, I think Jeremy's supporters see they cannot win that way and so argue in favour of mobilising apathetic and disillusioned former Labour supporters or potential sympathisers. It's seen as a hearts and minds struggle, a desire to win converts to the cause. The notion of a broad centre left coalition seems to have little appeal, leading to 'Tory-lite' government.

I respect that as a principled position but cannot see it producing a Labour government for at least two elections. But I think Corbynite supporters are going to have to have that proved to them via the ballot box. It does feel very much like a rerun of the 1980s.

Some Corbyn supporters seem to think that if only everyone could hear him unmediated, they would realise they are really out and out socialists. They think their enthusiasm and fervour is contagious.

The problem is that a small proportion of the electorate (I'd guess not much more than 20%) want radical change and a leader who inspires them. The vast majority of the not very political at all, just want reassurance.They want politics to intrude as little as possible into everyday life. I think this article by Rafael Behr is pretty accurate.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
There is no law against collating the general topics raised by one's constituents.

It sounds like you'd be very interested to see the information available in polls of the public's opinions on Corbyn then?

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mdijon
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Talking of ability in handling the press this story is an entirely self-inflicted injury. I agree with some of the general principles, but the focus on Branson makes them look petty and personalizes the issue.

Corbyn has complained about the press focusing on the train story at a time when he wanted to talk about the NHS. They can't have it both ways.

I agree with the general principles these guys stand for, but the "get off my team" aspect of seeming them operate keeps growing for me.

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Barnabas62
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To quote Martin60, mdijon, an illustration of 'the excellent John McDonnell' at work.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:

quote:
And the electorates that matter most are those in the Marginals - no studies have been made in that respect (to my knowledge).
Most of the winnable marginals are English seats currently held by Tory MPs. So it's not unreasonable to deduce that winning over former Tory voters is a fairly key part of any electoral strategy for Labour. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that voters who thought that Ed Miliband wasn't what they were looking for on economic competence and leadership aren't going to fall over themselves to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.
That was my line of thinking too - So how come the CLPs - the ones who have most to gain by winning over those voters - don't like the look of Smith ???
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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
There is no law against collating the general topics raised by one's constituents.

It sounds like you'd be very interested to see the information available in polls of the public's opinions on Corbyn then?
The information on opinions on Corbyn as compared to Smith in the Marginals, yes ... But don't think it's out there ???
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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
There is no law against collating the general topics raised by one's constituents.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It sounds like you'd be very interested to see the information available in polls of the public's opinions on Corbyn then?

quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
The information on opinions on Corbyn as compared to Smith in the Marginals, yes ... But don't think it's out there ???

Well before we had a leadership contest it wouldn't have been clear that that was the question to ask. From the polls it seems beyond doubt that there's widespread dissatisfaction with Corbyn among the general population. That's part of the mandate to consider action for the PLP.

What that action might be is open to question and is a matter of judgement, but it seems somewhat ostrich-like to take the view that the electorate don't matter until there's an election and they haven't been asked the right question yet for us to consider their views.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To quote Martin60, mdijon, an illustration of 'the excellent John McDonnell' at work.

So it is. Isn't it strange that it's ALL about what we bring to the party?

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To quote Martin60, mdijon, an illustration of 'the excellent John McDonnell' at work.

So it is. Isn't it strange that it's ALL about what we bring to the party?
Whatever floats your boat, Martin. I thought it was a pretty thin-skinned and vindictive response myself. Perhaps not quite f**ing useless, in terms of its value to Jeremy, but heading that way.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
To quote Martin60, mdijon, an illustration of 'the excellent John McDonnell' at work.

So it is. Isn't it strange that it's ALL about what we bring to the party?
Possibly not so strange as the persistent refusal to address what the "IT" is that you are proposing be taken to the party.

I mean - if it's the clown suit and a collection of Christmas-cracker mottoes, then we may be going to different parties.

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mdijon
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Nothing worse than being the guy that turns up in a chicken suit to the masked ball.

Actually there is, that's having your date turn up in a chicken suit and then call you disloyal when you wish for someone else.

What makes the story even more hopeless is that McDonnell has zero power to take anyone's honours away at the moment anyway. I can't see what has possibly been achieved by making that statement except an opportunity to look pathetic and petty.

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Frankly My Dear
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
There is no law against collating the general topics raised by one's constituents.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It sounds like you'd be very interested to see the information available in polls of the public's opinions on Corbyn then?

quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
The information on opinions on Corbyn as compared to Smith in the Marginals, yes ... But don't think it's out there ???

Well before we had a leadership contest it wouldn't have been clear that that was the question to ask. From the polls it seems beyond doubt that there's widespread dissatisfaction with Corbyn among the general population. That's part of the mandate to consider action for the PLP.

What that action might be is open to question and is a matter of judgement, but it seems somewhat ostrich-like to take the view that the electorate don't matter until there's an election and they haven't been asked the right question yet for us to consider their views.

That would be an ostrich-like view, I agree. But I repeat - much of the PLP has shown little or no interest in the electorate's views, in any case. The questions they have already been asked have their own legitimacy - but this is in large part a natural response to the entirely unnecessary display of disunity on the PLP's part to begin with!
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mdijon
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Your opinion is that they show little interest in the electorate's views.

My opinion is that you are showing little interest in the electorate's views by supporting Corbyn. They ain't gonna vote for him.

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Frankly My Dear
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My opinion is that Corbyn's chances are slim,, but that Smith's chances are even slimmer.
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
My opinion is that Corbyn's chances are slim,, but that Smith's chances are even slimmer.

Maybe, but he might have a better chance of getting a full set of Shadow Cabinet ministers plus junior ministers. The duty of HM Opposition is to oppose. In Parliament.

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Frankly My Dear
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Maybe, but I think the sense of disillusionment that would set in among those who have been politically 'activated' by Corbyn would cancel that good effect out ... So it's devil or deep blue sea ...
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