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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
I've sent a message to Church House Publishing about my disappointment with the 'Time to Pray' book*. Don't know if it will do any good, but I decided that they ought to know that, as it seems to be very badly prepared in terms of long term actual regular repeated usability, there is a good chance that it will sell rather less well than it should.
Wayward
* which I wouldn't normally do. I had high hopes of a usable CW Mid-day Office book from someone. I should have listened to my more pessimistic side that knew that if one was produced, if asked for, would fail to come up to scratch in some way. Regrettably, I was right. They eviscerated the psalmody.
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
Posts: 314 | From: Over here! | Registered: May 2001
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
In the meantime, I will supplement my pristine copy of the first edition with Office Hymns and additional collects and antiphons from that other rare work, the 1975 Book of Prayer from St John's Abbey, Collegeville.
A most rare and excellent book - if only this is made available again! (ok but with the grail psalms please.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Scott, who thinks the Order of Saint Helena have helped the cause with their excellent Personal Edition of the St Helena Breviary.
They have indeed, but their publishing company's printers and binders leave much to be desired. A whole signature of pages just fell out of my copy; I've had it for a month and taken good care of it! Isn't that special? $60 I paid for that book! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) I've already fired off a complaint.
Church Publishing is rather notorious for bad bindings, although their BCPs and Hymnals are very sturdily bound. The OSH breviary seems to be, but it looks like the sewing didn't always "take." I took the opportunity to complain about the typos as well. Couldn't hurt.
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
I see that the UK edition of the RC Divine Office in three volumes has just been reprinted by HarperCollins.
I believe that it has an updated liturgical calendar, with the addition of the new feasts which have been introduced in recent years.
Other than that, does anyone know if it is significantly different from the last edition? For example, does it have new office hymns?
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
I see that the UK edition of the RC Divine Office in three volumes has just been reprinted by HarperCollins.
I believe that it has an updated liturgical calendar, with the addition of the new feasts which have been introduced in recent years.
I bet they're kicking themselves for printing the new edition five minutes before the RCC abolished - oops, sorry, transferred - the feasts of Epiphany, Ascension and Corpus Christi.
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
A whole signature of pages just fell out of my copy; I've had it for a month and taken good care of it! Isn't that special? $60 I paid for that book! I've already fired off a complaint.
[/QB]
I hope you have that copy repaired soon. My copy arrived on Saturday. Took a long while for Amazon to send it over. It is a very handsome volume and I imagine American users will appreciate the typeset recalling the feel of the prayer book.
I'm happy to have a portable volume which music I can slowly learn from its companion monastic version.
By the way, OHC's Noted Monastic Breviary (the one with music) is available on ebay.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
I've just ordered a copy of the 1961 edition of The Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, which was at one time the SSJE office book and was largely compiled from the Sarum breviary by a Father Trenholme. I believe the first edition was published in 1911.
Is anyone familiar with this book?
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pisco Sours
Apprentice
# 11609
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Church Publishing is rather notorious for bad bindings, although their BCPs and Hymnals are very sturdily bound. The OSH breviary seems to be, but it looks like the sewing didn't always "take." I took the opportunity to complain about the typos as well. Couldn't hurt.
You can say that again. Not only did I get the OSH, I also bought the Year 2 Part 2 Daily Office (RSV) that Church Publishing puts out. (Why do they not have a NRSV set?) In both cases, the binding is just shoddy.
And I thought I'd found an almost-perfect solution to my dreaded flippity too, one that let me celebrate down to just about every minor feast. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So. I guess it's back to pocket-sized Prayer Book and pocket-sized Bible for me. That and the Mission St. Clare website.
Posts: 19 | From: Alexandria, VA, USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pisco Sours:
You can say that again. Not only did I get the OSH, I also bought the Year 2 Part 2 Daily Office (RSV) that Church Publishing puts out. (Why do they not have a NRSV set?) In both cases, the binding is just shoddy.
The Contemporary Office Book is NRSV...both years in one volume. I can't make any promises about the binding quality. The one we have in our sacristy seems OK, but I use a hardcover BCP to lead the office; it has our extra twiddly bits pasted in (Angelus and Regina caeli).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Users of St Helena Breviary, Personal Edition will have to scribble in the Antiphons on Magnificat and Benedictus for the feasts of the apostles.
The text for Benedictus for St James is:
Anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, for Jesus came to serve and not be served.
And for Magnificat:
King Herod started persecuting certain members of the church. He beheaded James, the brother of John.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
# 8367
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Posted
Does anyone have experience of organising, say, a weekly reading of Vespers in their local church? I'm quite tempted to suggest this to my parish priest and would gladly organise it. Did you find that people were interested? Did you incorporate music or chant into the office?
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Via Veritas Vita
Posts: 1093 | From: Scotchland, Europeshire | Registered: Aug 2004
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
quote:
I've just ordered a copy of the 1961 edition of The Hours of Prayer from Lauds to Compline Inclusive, which was at one time the SSJE office book and was largely compiled from the Sarum breviary by a Father Trenholme. I believe the first edition was published in 1911.
Received it this morning. It is in very good condition and contains all the Hours except Mattins, and largely follows the pre-Vatican II Roman calendar. Unlike, for example, The English Office, it is completely self-contained and no other books such as bibles and lectionaries are required to use it. It is also less bulky than, for example, The Anglican Breviary.
It says in the preface that the last revision was in 1949, but I think it must have been reprinted several times since then.
Methinks this would be an interesting work for Canterbury Press to reprint. It would look rather nice with a red cover and gold lettering, like The English Office. I think it would appeal to lovers of things Sarum.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Craigmaddie wrote:-
quote:
Does anyone have experience of organising, say, a weekly reading of Vespers in their local church? I'm quite tempted to suggest this to my parish priest and would gladly organise it. Did you find that people were interested? Did you incorporate music or chant into the office
I note that Canterbury Press in Norwich are about to publish a book entitled Celebrating Sunday Evening Prayer, which is a resource for RC churches wishing to introduce regular Sunday vespers.
I am not sure of the precise content of the book, and whether it contains suggestions for chant or hymns. However, it does come with a CD which can be used for the production of service sheets.
I understand that the book will cost £25, so it must be a fairly substantial publication with a good deal of material.
DIVINE OFFICE
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
On a slightly different tack, please can somebody explain to this idiot what he's supposed to do at the points in CCP where you come to the funny R - presumably for Refrain?
I plead a misspent youth as a cause of my ignorance.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Users of St Helena Breviary, Personal Edition will have to scribble in the Antiphons on Magnificat and Benedictus for the feasts of the apostles.
The text for Benedictus for St James is:
Anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, for Jesus came to serve and not be served.
And for Magnificat:
King Herod started persecuting certain members of the church. He beheaded James, the brother of John.
This book is proving highly exasperating. Church Publishing doesn't yet seem to have shaken off its habit of releasing books that aren't ready. Proofreading appears to be highly inadequate, as major shortcomings are missed. Here's what I've found so far, major and minor:
Saint Helena Breviary: Personal Edition
Errata
5 Fourth verse at top of page: comma should be within quotation marks..."Jesus Christ is Savior," *
13 In Ordinary Time canticle, missing line break before "Many waters..."
40 Missing versicle in Monday Diurnum Respond. Should read:
Reader: You have been my helper; leave me not.
Response: Do not forsake me, O God of my salvation.
183ff In footer, the word "day" should be capitalized.
312 Second stanza at top of page ("All glory..."): wrong font (Times Roman)
589 First line: Should read, "Proper 7 Week of the Sunday closest to June 22" - not June 72.
589 Proper 7 Wednesday: remove space after colon in Numbers reference.
589 Proper 8 Wednesday: remove superfluous ampersand
-- No Gospel Canticle antiphons provided for apostles (Common or Proper)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Craigmaddie
c/o The Pickwick Club
# 8367
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Posted
Thanks, Divine Office.
Has anybody found a general interest in the Liturgy of the Hours in their churches? I guess that even if I end up alone praying Vespers before the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday I certainly won't be wasting my time....
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Via Veritas Vita
Posts: 1093 | From: Scotchland, Europeshire | Registered: Aug 2004
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
On a slightly different tack, please can somebody explain to this idiot what he's supposed to do at the points in CCP where you come to the funny R - presumably for Refrain?
I plead a misspent youth as a cause of my ignorance.
I can't find an example, at the moment. Could you point to one?
It could be refrain, for example in a psalm or canticle - except the psalms dont have them. Or it could simply mark the congregation's/non-leader's response to a versicle. this is where I've seen them before.
Wayward
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
Posts: 314 | From: Over here! | Registered: May 2001
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Craigmaddie:
Has anybody found a general interest in the Liturgy of the Hours in their churches? I guess that even if I end up alone praying Vespers before the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday I certainly won't be wasting my time....
I've tended to find that, if people turn up and participate, then people will feel more able to turn up and participate. But even one person making the effort may be the impetus needed for another to come and join in.
Speaking personally, I have found that, for me, saying the office alone in church, loud enough that an unseen visitor may be able to join in by listening too if that was what they wanted, rather unhelpful. A second participant, or leaving and praying the office at home are both of far more benefit to me, personally. I benefit from liturgy being either corporate or explicitly private - the halfway point is rather difficult. Others may well be different.
Wayward
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
Posts: 314 | From: Over here! | Registered: May 2001
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Craigmaddie:
Does anyone have experience of organising, say, a weekly reading of Vespers in their local church? I'm quite tempted to suggest this to my parish priest and would gladly organise it. Did you find that people were interested? Did you incorporate music or chant into the office?
Done occasional Offices at my church. Once with a short office of evening prayer and then a procession around the worship space, stopping at various stations (e.g. lectern, communion table, main entrance etc) and praying for various ministries of the church (preaching, common life, people who have entered into our community and those who have left). Then there is a tenebrae on Good Friday.
I'm trying to resuscitate a monthly prayer meeting. Up in plans is to have regular sessions involving first traditional (read: usual) forms of prayer and then followed by spiritual exercises (contemplative prayer). For the first one I'm thinking of doing a short form of Orthodox Vespers . Usually a small group turns up (about 6-7 of a full congregation of 50). If sufficient people come, I'm thinking of doing a sung service with congregation doing an ison on the tonal note and I'll do the plainsong melody.
We'll see how it goes.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
[QBI can't find an example, at the moment. Could you point to one?[/QB]
Just to be precise I'm referring to CCP Pocket Edition 2002 (I think, doing this from memory).
From memory, or possibly from my imagination, it's in the Prayers and Intercessions section, you get things like:
"That God may bind up the brokenhearted and... etc R
That Christ may be known throughout the world, R
Free prayer and intercessions may be offered here"
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
Right.
There should be a page or two near by, probably before the pages of intercessions themselves, with a list of responses like
Lord, hear us
Lord, Graciously hear us
or
Let your kingdom come
let your will be done
The funny R mark means you insert the (appropriately) selected one of those.
At least that's what's in the Common Worship provision, from which I believe the 2002 pocket edition takes much of its material.
Wayward
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
Posts: 314 | From: Over here! | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Craigmaddie wrote:-
quote:
Has anybody found a general interest in the Liturgy of the Hours in their churches? I guess that even if I end up alone praying Vespers before the Blessed Sacrament every Sunday I certainly won't be wasting my time....
At my local RC Church, Lauds is usually recited just before the 10am Mass on Monday to Friday using the small red Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer book.
There is no service of Vespers, nor do I think that there is one at any of the other RC churches in my town.
As far as I can make out, very few of the RC churches in my part of the world seem to have public celebrations of the Liturgy of the Hours.
One notable exception was a church in a town some miles away, which used to have Evening Prayer and Benediction on Sundays and Evening Prayer and Stations of the Cross on Sundays in Lent.
However, that was a few years ago, and I don't know if they still do. As far as I know, even my RC diocesan cathedral does not have Morning or Evening Prayer in public at any time.
A great pity, really.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
However, that was a few years ago, and I don't know if they still do. As far as I know, even my RC diocesan cathedral does not have Morning or Evening Prayer in public at any time.
I can't take credit for its success, but in my previous parish I was part of a group that began a daily Evening Prayer on weekdays at 5:30 p.m. The one prompting it and who made it work was our relatively new organist/choirmaster, who approached the project with the attitude of "We're going to do this, because this is part of what the church is for." He wouldn't hear negative comments like "We've tried that," or "You won't get many people."
He simply proposed to the rector that on weekdays at 5:30 p.m. a Book of Common Prayer service of Evening Prayer be prayed in the church, led by an officiant/lector and a cantor, both vested in albs. They would lead from prayer desks on either side of a lectern at the "crossing"...the head of the center aisle in front of the chancel steps. Pavement lights would flank the lectern, which would hold a large pulpit Bible. Ten copies of the Plainsong Psalter, paid for out of the music budget, would be picked up by participants from a table in the middle of the nave's center aisle. The service would begin precisely on time each day; the responses, psalms, and canticles would be chanted; the suffrages and collects would be said; an office hymn would be sung, and closing prayers would be said. The service would last about 25 minutes.
He sat down and drew up a weekly rota to schedule the 10 slots for officiants and cantors. Most were filled by choir members; he took a couple of slots. Attendance varied from nobody but the two leaders up to 40+ on the day when the bishop held the executive council meeting at our church. Average was three or four beyond the two leaders.
He has since left the parish to go to seminary and has been a priest for two years. Evening Prayer is still done every weekday, now at 5:45.
Episcopal parishes do have the advantage of the Book of Common Prayer in every pew, which contains the full Daily Office and psalter. Even if we hadn't gone for the plainsong psalters, we could have done Evening Prayer every day right out of the prayer book.
The key was the attitude our choirmaster instilled in all involved, that we would simply do this, not stop doing it, and would do it well and with a certain level of ritual formality that expressed to those attending that we took this seriously and it wasn't just an interesting activity to do until we're bored of it.
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
The funny R mark means you insert the (appropriately) selected one of those.
Thanks for the reply - I can't find any such responses. Just checked again, but I've been using the book although ad-libbing the intercessions for quite some time now and didn't expect I'd missed it.
Perhaps the CW texts got transferred in there without anyone noticing the responses were missing?
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
On the one Thursday each month when my RC priest has a healing mass in the evening, we replace the 8:00am weekday mass with Morning Prayer from the LoH. Father downloads the service booklets from an online source. He started doing this a couple of years ago (prior to that he celebrated two masses on those Thursdays) and nobody batted an eye. Of course, weekday mass is mainly about a dozen people: a few retired couples and us old church ladies.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
Thank you, Scott and DitzySpike, for pointing out the problems with The Saint Helena Breviary, Personal Edition. They are most unfortunate, because the concept is a laudable attempt at making a monastic breviary useful and flexible for laypeople. I received the book a few weeks ago but haven't really prayed with it. The shorcomings are serious enough that I have decided to return the book. I'm especially leary of having it fall apart on me. I hope Church Publishing will produce a better, second edition in the near future.
Meanwhile, I am enjoying using Common Worship: Daily Prayer. After more than two weeks of praying with it, I haven't noticed any typos or omissions whatsoever. I'm sure having had months of testing with the (inexpensive) preliminary edition helped in this regard.
Happy Feast of St. James!
J.S. Bach
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J.S. Bach:
Thank you, Scott and DitzySpike, for pointing out the problems with The Saint Helena Breviary, Personal Edition. They are most unfortunate, because the concept is a laudable attempt at making a monastic breviary useful and flexible for laypeople. I received the book a few weeks ago but haven't really prayed with it. The shorcomings are serious enough that I have decided to return the book. I'm especially leary of having it fall apart on me. I hope Church Publishing will produce a better, second edition in the near future.
In a bit of a snit, I wrote to ask for a refund and sent them my post above with the errata. They responded by saying they're sending me a replacement copy. If I get to keep the old one, maybe I'll mark all the corrections in red pen and keep using it.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
So, those of you who pray some form of the Daily Office, Liturgy of the Hours, canonical hours, Opus Dei, Divine Office, diurnal, or breviary:
If you miss an office, do you make it up later, or skip it and pick up again at the current one depending on the time of day?
I generally do the latter but today feel compelled to make up Matins and Diurnum. Haven't prayed anything yet today, and here it is 3:20 p.m. I mainly want to catch up on psalms. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I skip, but then I'm a spiritual slacker.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
So, those of you who pray some form of the Daily Office, Liturgy of the Hours, canonical hours, Opus Dei, Divine Office, diurnal, or breviary:
If you miss an office, do you make it up later, or skip it and pick up again at the current one depending on the time of day?
I generally do the latter but today feel compelled to make up Matins and Diurnum. Haven't prayed anything yet today, and here it is 3:20 p.m. I mainly want to catch up on psalms.
I make it up later, since currently I only sing Morning Prayer on a consistent basis. Sometimes it gets broken up in pieces, depending on what happens. Sometimes it lasts all day!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
I skip.
For me, if I'm skipping, it is because I'm being rushed for something else, or need to spend the time with my family instead and haven't been able to carve out time for the office. I do try to protect some time for the office - like most daily office folks, I've lost serious sleep getting up early to try to not miss offices.
But I think it more important to take the time to pray the office you are on with proper devotion, not rushing the psalms, etc. rather than to try to squeeze two hours in to the place of one.
I get more out of that spiritually, I think. I take comfort that there are other folks praying those offices I miss so that the church is ever at prayer. I try to hold up my end of the stick as best I can.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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John H
Shipmate
# 9599
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Posted
Skip. But then I'm a bit of a lightweight anyway - usually only say morning prayer and compline at the best of times (try to say evening prayer on feasts, except when I don't).
What I do catch up on is my Bible reading on the grounds that (i) if I don't have time to listen and speak to God, then listening should take precedence; and (ii) more pragmatically, my Bible-reading plan is pretty unforgiving (M'Cheyne, two chapters a day) and a few days missed can leave me completely floundering as I try to catch up (normally with a regretful sense that I just completely blew my biennial reading of Isaiah 40 or annual reading of Romans 8 or whatever...)
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"If you look upon ham and eggs and lust, you have already committed breakfast in your heart."
Posts: 423 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I skip.
Matter of fact, I think I've skipped every Office since... um, March. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lou Poulain
Shipmate
# 1587
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Posted
I skip, but like John H I catch up on the lessons.
Lou
Posts: 526 | From: Sunnyvale CA USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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campion's fan
Apprentice
# 11643
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Posted
Bit of a tangent. Anyone in the UK or reading British papers on the web see the report on Thursday that a 1,200 year old psalter has been found in a peat bog in Ireland?
Posts: 41 | From: on the edge of a field in England | Registered: Jul 2006
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
My husband (who could care less about psalters) spotted the news item on CNN yesterday and told me about it.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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J.S. Bach
Shipmate
# 9633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
If you miss an office, do you make it up later, or skip it and pick up again at the current one depending on the time of day?
Like some responders, I'll generally skip the particular office but will try to make up the readings. Sometimes I'll do the evening prayer reading during compline. Other times, I'll double up the next day.
J.S. Bach
Posts: 104 | From: Near Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
*bump*
How's everything going out there in Daily Office Land?
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
This thread almost fell off the front page. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
I shall get a 1928 BCP but my university library has this:
"The Latin Prayer book of Charles II: or an account of the Liturgia of Dean Durel..."
I'd enjoy working on my Latin; could I use this for private devotions?
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I'm pretty sure you can use whatever you like (barring Satanic masses or such) for your private devotions.
If you're asking whether that particular work would count as praying the 'official' Divine Office or Liturgy of the Hours, I'll leave it to the scholars amongst us.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
I've just managed to buy another interesting breviary for my collection on eBay.
It is the Melkite Catholic Horologion published by Sophia Press. I also managed to get a copy of the LA Press Monastic Diurnal Noted at a good price.
I've never really tried devotions from an Orthodox or Uniate church before. The Horologion should be interesting!
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
The ECUSA BCP of 1979 translated into Latin is a very interesting resource. I may try using some of the material for my own devotions, possibly with Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office.
At the moment, I am using the Order of Noonday Prayer from the PBO as a form of "prayer during the day", with the addition of an Office Hymn from the 1975 Book of Prayer of St John's Abbey at Collegeville.
Before the Office, I (try) to recite the Angelus in Latin, and after the closing versicles I add a devotion appropriate to the day of the week. This is taken from my copy of The Priest's Book of Private Devotion.
For Vespers, I am currently using the American edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, with the Office Hymn and Magnificat with antiphon taken from the Latin Liturgia Horarum.
On several days each week I join in with Morning Prayer which is said publicly in my local RC Church before Mass, using the small Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer book. This morning I had the chance to lead Morning Prayer, as Scott does. I found that very rewarding.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
I have before me pieces of the 1681 Liturgia, seu Liber Precum Communium printed from a microfilm in the local university library. It has the following features:
1) The Lord's Prayer is the traditional Latin Lord's Prayer, in the Matthew version but with the word "quotidianum" borrowed from Luke in place of Matthew's "supersubstantialem". The concluding doxology is added where the 1662 BCP (so far as I know from secondary sources) adds it, and omitted where 1662 omits it.
2) The psalms are the "Gallican Psalter" of the Latin Vulgate, and follow the Vulgate numbering.
3) The Gospel Canticles where I have checked them are the traditional Latin versions. They are not reverse-engineered from English.
4) Rubrics are translated exactly, even when it makes no sense to do so. For example, the rubric at the Nunc Dimittis at Evening Prayer states "Postea vero Nunc Dimittis seu Canticum Simeonis lingua vernacula prout sequitur", even though the Nunc Dimittis that "sequitur" is in Latin!
5) The Collect for Grace ("who hast safely brought us to the beginning of this day") is not a traditional version that I have been able to verify, and might be fresh-made from the English version.
Anyhow the Morning and Evening Prayer rites look reasonable. Here is the General Thanksgiving
quote:
Omnipotens Deus, miserationum omnium Pater, nos indigni famuli tui, tibi ex animo et cum summa demissione gratias agimus ob universam illam beneficentiam, benignitatem et favorem erga nos et omnes homines. Tibi benedicimus ob creationem nostram, conservationem et omnes hujus vitae benedictiones, ante omnia vero ob inaestimabilem amorem tuum in redemptione mundi per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum patefactum; ob gratiae media et spem gloriae. Te autem rogamus supplices ut cunctis a te acceptis beneficiis ita afficiamur, ut animi nostri vere erga te gratia afficiantur, et laudem tuam praedicemus, non labiis dumtaxat, sed etiam moribus ac vivendi ratione nos totos tuo cultui impendentes, atque in sanctitate et justitia per omnem aetatem nostram in conspectu tuo ambulantes, per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum; cui tecum et cum Spiritu Sancto sit omnis honor et gloria in saecula saeculorum.
As Scott has noted, there are Latin translations of the Prayer Book at justus.anglican.org, which unfortunately seems to be off-line today.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
The web site justus.anglican.org has come back on-line, allowing me for comparison to note here the General Thanksgiving from the 1865 Bright & Medd translation of the 1662 English Book of Common Prayer
quote:
Omnipotens Deus, Pater omnium misericordiarum, nos indigni famuli tui humillime et ex animo tibi gratias agimus pro omni bonitate tua et benignitate erga nos et omnes homines: Benedicimus tibi pro creatione et conservatione nostra et omnibus hujusce vitę bonis; sed maxime pro amore tuo inęstimabili, quo mundum per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum redemisti; insuper pro gratię instrumentis et spe glorię. Quę omnia beneficia tua da nobis ita, ut justum est, sentire, ut cordibus vere gratis, laudem tuam non loquendo tantum, sed vivendo annuntiemus; dum servitio tuo penitus devoti, coram te in sanctitate et justitia omnibus diebus vitę nostrę ambulemus. Per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum, cui tecum, in unitate Spiritus Sancti, sit omnis honor et gloria, per omnia sęcula sęculorum.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
So, those of you who pray some form of the Daily Office, Liturgy of the Hours, canonical hours, Opus Dei, Divine Office, diurnal, or breviary: depending on the time of day?
Absolutely not. The rest of the Church, with whom I always say the Office, has said that Office on my behalf. If I miss an office without due cause I should be sorry for it. If there is due cause then no harm has been done. Either way, in my view, the best thing to do is to stick to the pattern of the offices and resolve to be as faithful in saying them as possible.
In any case the offices in the modern Roman Rite (with the exception of the Office of Readings) have a particular 'character', suited to a time of day, so it would seem incongruous to say them at other times.
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Today I recieved a most interesting copy of a Horologion as used by the Melkite Church.
My question is is this: can one use an Orthodox Horologion on one's own in the abscence of a priest in the same way as one would use the Western Breviary?
For example, in order to recite Vespers from a Horologion, would you simply recite the psalms and prayers and ignore the detailed rubrics given for the priest?
I think that the Eastern Churches are more inclined to favour the Divine Liturgy used in common than in private; for example, I understand that there is no such thing as a "said" eucharist
and that the Liturgy is always sung in full on a Sunday, and that there is never more than one celebration.
Any advice on how to use the Horolgion correctly would be appreciated.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Play around with the horologion. It's quite fun. Do bear in mind that a service itself is often a conflation of up to three different office (orthos, for example spans an imperial office, a monastic office and a people's office). You may want to just stick to the monastic part of it.
You may also want to find 'proper' material. Here's a good site to get it.
However do note that the printed text is only a small part of an Eastern Rite office. You need to be there.
Check out the rubrics for the typicon. There's this curious instruction asking the reader to sin.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Glad to bring my favourite thread back from obscurity on p. 2.
I recently "won" a Noted Monastic Breviary, ed. by the Order of the Holy Cross, on eBay, and I'm delighted because it's another for my collection of unpublished monastic liturgical works. This is the looseleaf chant volume for A Monastic Breviary, the four-office book used by OHC and previously by the Order of St Helena. I've found it fascinating to compare and contrast the OHC chant book with the OSH Breviary, Monastic Edition. The OSH one is a quite faithful updating of the OHC. In turn, the OHC borrowed a lot from the Monastic Diurnal Noted. I'm really getting used to the pointing system. It works well and makes me wonder why so many RC Benedictine houses opted for unpointed Grail with jellyroll...er, Gelineau, tones. Perhaps, like Thomas Merton, they believed English couldn't be done to Latin psalm tones.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
It works well and makes me wonder why so many RC Benedictine houses opted for unpointed Grail with jellyroll...er, Gelineau, tones. Perhaps, like Thomas Merton, they believed English couldn't be done to Latin psalm tones. [/QB]
What about because the Grail psalms is more interesting poetry with a rhythm structure that makes meanings as well: connecting stressed words and forming tighter parallelism?
The ICEL psalms moved away from the more rigid Grail form. However, the tendency seems to move away from the two-lined pattern of the latin vulgate towards the strophe pattern of the Hebrew.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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