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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily Offices Redux
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T.B.Cherubim
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# 11582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ana:
Forgive me for what may seem like a silly question, but I'm new to all this, and have noticed that, since we entered Lent, Compline from Common Worship has suddenly become the same every night. Same gospel reading, same psalm, same collect!
Is this actually the case? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) If so, I think it may not be for me.
Compline is traditionally largely unvarying. I supposed partly because in ancient times it was said after dark, and thus mostly from memory! CW:DP still holds out the possibility of unvarying Compline every day of the year.
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Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
www.eurobishop.blogspot.com
Posts: 101 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US:
https://www.monasterygreetings.com/Products.asp?PCID=297
[ 25. February 2007, 16:10: Message edited by: lukacs ]
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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RCD
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# 11440
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Posted
Can anyone recommend a good online (and free) resource for seasonal psalms according to a/the liturgical year?
[ 26. February 2007, 09:56: Message edited by: RCD ]
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Does anyone know what form of office the US houses of All Saints Sisters of the Poor use?
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Does anyone know what form of office the US houses of All Saints Sisters of the Poor use?
Yes: "The Monastic Diurnal adapted to our use." - From Anglican Religious Communities Year Book: Fifth International Edition 2006-7.
That would be the 1932 MD. Schedule:
05.30am Rising Bell
06.00am Meditation
06.30am Lauds
07.00am Eucharist
09.30am Terce
12.00nn Sext
03.00pm None
05.00pm Vespers
08.30pm Compline
Here's a site with some more information.
[ 27. February 2007, 20:01: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices? The English Office does something similar with the C of E 1662 BCP offices. It adds antiphons, versicles and other traditional enhancements to the bare-bones BCP offices.
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Scott--thanks as always, re: All Saints Sisters of the Poor. Would that be the same MONASTIC DIURNAL reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press? Do you know the difference between the Sisters' adapted usage and the normal usage?
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
You can use the '79 Lectionary with the ENGLISH OFFICE, but it takes a little adjusting. The problem is that the '79 Lectionary sets forth three readings a day, rather than four, which was the standard for most other office lectionaries. The ENGLISH OFFICE is organized around two readings for MP and EP, with the traditional canticles to follow. If you read one '79 lesson in the morning followed by the Benedictus, and cut out the Te Deum altogether, you can do it. It's easiest to go with the 30-day psalm schema as well.
[ 27. February 2007, 20:41: Message edited by: lukacs ]
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Scott--thanks as always, re: All Saints Sisters of the Poor. Would that be the same MONASTIC DIURNAL reprinted by Lancelot Andrewes Press? Do you know the difference between the Sisters' adapted usage and the normal usage?
Yes, that's the one currently reprinted by LA Press. Wish I knew more about their adaptations; I did find another site for them, and it has some good contact info.
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices?
I saw a copy at the General Theological Seminary library (and I looked at some other liturgical stuff that made me drool). Would that I could find a copy for less than $200. Why oh why do such things go out of print? I always imagine it's political, that it's somehow theologically or otherwise unpleasing to the powers that be. It occurs to me that my sponsor for confirmation works for Church Publishing, hmmm...
Thanks for the tip.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Scott--I'll write the Sisters and see what I can suss out about their usage of the DIURNAL. We might be sending a delegation of parishioners there on retreat, so I have a good pretext for finding out what they're in for Office-wise.
I'll also ask the folks at Lancelot Andrewes--I found a Yahoo Groups for the MD but the ordos seem to be organized for Western Rite Orthodox usage.
[ 27. February 2007, 23:23: Message edited by: lukacs ]
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US:
I've seen other posts about this. I'm interested, but not having seen it, I'm not clear on how its meant to be used. I presume it is based on the 1662 BCP? Is it meant to be used on its own, or in conjunction with a prayer book? Would it be a useful way to supplement the daily offices of the US BCP79? Thanks for the info.
I never answered some of your points here...sorry!
The English Office is based on the 1662 BCP and can be used along with a Bible (for the lessons). It has the complete psalter and everything else needed, I think. You may need a 1662 BCP or other source for a lectionary.
You could easily use its antiphons on the psalter with the 1979 BCP offices if you follow the in-course plan for reading the psalms in a month (Pss. 1-5 at MP on the 1st of the month, etc., as divided in the psalter itself). Other materials could be used to enrich the 1979 offices as well.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Scott--I'll write the Sisters and see what I can suss out about their usage of the DIURNAL. We might be sending a delegation of parishioners there on retreat, so I have a good pretext for finding out what they're in for Office-wise.
Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway: Please share whatever you find out! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
I'm late in coming into the Anglican Breviary scene: my copy of the book arrived last week. The work put into this is amazing (and unpacking its use is also subsequently not easy).
The rubrics on posture and gesture, and the earnest need to legitimize simplification by appealing to cognate uses is charming.
I'm doing only bits and pieces from the book. In the morning I work through a selection of psalms from Mattins and Lauds, the reading(s) from Mattins (as one lesson), a responsory and then moving on the the Benedictus and preces from Lauds. In the evening, I take a selection of psalms from prime, the hours and vespers and then complete it with the rest of the texts for vespers.
Handling the patristic homilies take some easing into. The lenten readings are often very anti-semitic but I'm alright with resisting the texts.
Will see whether I'll grow to love this book.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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MattV
Shipmate
# 11314
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Posted
I have finally got myself keeping the daily office. As this point it's just MP and EP, hopefully I be able to change that someday! I use the 1979 BCP little black daily office books. Sometime I use 1928 BCP EP and psalter. Unlike many people (it seems) I am perfectly content with just using the 3 readings in the lectionary. The only non rubrical thing I do is say the Angelus.
Posts: 350 | From: New England | Registered: Apr 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
Ditzyspike, if you haven't already, you may well want to join the AB Yahoo Group, on which a kind member posts ordos and all manner of questions are answered.
I highly recommend these instructions as well.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lukacs:
I thought some US members might find the following of interest: Monastery Greetings is offering the ENGLISH OFFICE at the lowest price I have seen thus far, and it ships directly from the US.
God love you lukacs. I've just finished orderin mine.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I also recommend their chocolate-dipped fruitcake.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Oh. Well, I guess God doesn't love you as much as I'd earlier thought. Tough break.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
There's no accounting for taste.
BTW Here's something I found the other day whilst looking for an alternative to Mission St. Clare for online '79 BCP offices--it's basically Rite I as adapted to the Anglican Use:
http://www.bookofhours.org/
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Are you familiar with Howard Galley's A Prayer Book Office, an out-of-print enrichment of the 1979 BCP Rite II offices?
I saw a copy at the General Theological Seminary library (and I looked at some other liturgical stuff that made me drool). Would that I could find a copy for less than $200.
Always volunteer in church. I was helping clear out some old storage on Tuesday night. Lo and behold in the bottom of a box of old books - not one, but TWO copies of A Prayer Book Office.
It's only a loaner, but one is now on my nightstand as an official loan.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MattV:
I am perfectly content with just using the 3 readings in the lectionary. The only non rubrical thing I do is say the Angelus.
It's best to start out simple. Eventually, once you've made it around the lectionary a couple of times and once you've gotten more comfortable with the rhythm of the office, you might see yourself supplementing more and more. Daily Readings from the Early Church suits me well for this purpose.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Here's an interesting question for RCs:-
How many of you prefer to use other forms of the daily office for personal recitation rather than the official Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours?
For example, does anyone prefer to experiment with Anglican forms such as Common Worship; Daily Prayer or the 1979 ECUSA BCP for reasons of better liturgical language or a better biblical lectionary?
I think it was mentioned that the RC writer Dorothy Day preferred to use the 1928 ECUSA BCP for these reasons.
Also, do others prefer more traditional forms of the RC office, such as The Monastic Diurnal as reprinted by Farnborough Abbey Press?
Any comments would be interesting.
DIVINE OFFICE
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Office:
Here's an interesting question for RCs:-
How many of you prefer to use other forms of the daily office for personal recitation rather than the official Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours?
For example, does anyone prefer to experiment with Anglican forms such as Common Worship; Daily Prayer or the 1979 ECUSA BCP for reasons of better liturgical language or a better biblical lectionary?
I think it was mentioned that the RC writer Dorothy Day preferred to use the 1928 ECUSA BCP for these reasons.
Also, do others prefer more traditional forms of the RC office, such as The Monastic Diurnal as reprinted by Farnborough Abbey Press?
Any comments would be interesting.
DIVINE OFFICE
Without any personal experience of the LOTH, I found myself naturally attracted to the older forms. I started by simply praying my way through the appointed psalms in the Oxford Psalter (solely because I happened upon a copy and it suddenly stuck me as a good practice to adopt.) Then I stumbled upon a copy of the pre-Vatican II Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and started to pray Matins and Vespers from that. I think I also had, in the back of my mind, some advice from a friend to the effect that if I ever wanted to graduate to praying the full breviary, the LOBVM was a good primer in the general form of the offices.
Having come across the predecessor to this thread, it whetted my appetite for something more challenging and, after a little research, I bought a copy of the Collegeville Short Breviary, a simplified version of the Roman Breviary in English (which I am praying through Lent - Prime and Vespers only.) Even that wasn't enough, and so I bought a copy of the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, a Latin/English version of the Roman Breviary as it stood immediately after Vatican II. I started praying with that in the weeks leading up for Lent and I hope to take it up again as a permanent discipline once Lent is over.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I think I was the one who cited Dorothy Day's use of the '28 BCP, later in her life--a while back I was doing some research on the online site for the Dorothy Day papers at Marquette University, and found the following two entries. It wasn't the lectionary so much as the ease of use (Day was a Benedictine oblate obligated to praying the Office):
from The Catholic Worker, May 1978, 2.
When I was fourteen, I sang my baby brother to sleep with the Episcopal hymnal--"brightest and best of the sons of the morning" was one of the songs. I told Ann Perkins I wished I had an Episcopal hymnal now, remembering The Wide, Wide World, my favorite book when I was age twelve. A best seller in England as well as America, Vincent Van Gogh recommended it in one of his letters to his brother. It is good spiritual reading, and really brought me to an enjoyment of work I never had before. I became a better student and worker (having a "philosophy of work," as Peter Maurin called it.)
Hymns were stressed in The Wide, Wide World. The little girl in that book was converted by a hymnal. So, Ann Perkins brought me a most beautiful prayer book and hymnal in one volume, a gift from Fr. Mallary of All Saints Church. God bless him! Now I shall enjoy it again, singing to comfort myself.
from The Catholic Worker, March-April 1979, 2, 7:
Ann Perkins called. She had visited England recently and is still looking for The Humiliated Christ in Russian Thought by Goredetsky for me. Before she left for England, she found for me an Anglican prayer book, which is easier to use than our complicated Office. Such a faithful friend.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
Can anyone recommend a good online (and free) resource for seasonal psalms according to a/the liturgical year?
RCD, have you gotten any answers? (I haven't spotted any on this thread yet -- or have I missed it utterly?)
The (US) Episcopal Sundays (& seasons) lectionary, plus their Daily Office lectionary, are available online. These include psalms. But I see you are Roman Catholic, plus I'm not sure what you mean by 'seasonal psalms', so I don't know if that would be of help?
[P.S. Are you asking for just the table of which psalms, or do you want the text of the psalms as well?]
[ 01. March 2007, 17:29: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
Can anyone recommend a good online (and free) resource for seasonal psalms according to a/the liturgical year?
RCD, have you gotten any answers? (I haven't spotted any on this thread yet -- or have I missed it utterly?)
The (US) Episcopal Sundays (& seasons) lectionary, plus their Daily Office lectionary, are available online. These include psalms. But I see you are Roman Catholic, plus I'm not sure what you mean by 'seasonal psalms', so I don't know if that would be of help?
[P.S. Are you asking for just the table of which psalms, or do you want the text of the psalms as well?]
Thanks, Autenrieth Road.
This was not exactly a denomination-specific thing- I was looking for psalms commonly associated with the seasons- like how one might associate 24 with Christmas or 50, 129 and the other pentenital ones with Lent. Most Office books I'm used to (including the modern RC which I follow )go for the repeated psalter recitation every X week(s).
I was hoping to be pointed to ones which might "tailor" the Office a little more to include psalms appropriate to the season as well.
Tables will be fine. The Daily Lectionery I have looked at, and it is helpful for a lot of days but some of the selections, for me seem a little too jubilant for Lent.
[fixed quote code. __AR, Eccles Host]
[ 02. March 2007, 12:52: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
too jubilant for Lent.
Can we not be jubilant in Lent, even without the "A-word"? As my rector aptly put it in a newsletter, "God is not asking us to strike a bargain: God has already given us everything."
Makes me jubilant to be reminded of that. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Scott, who favors the monastic praying of the whole psalter in all seasons
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
I was hoping to be pointed to ones which might "tailor" the Office a little more to include psalms appropriate to the season as well.
Tables will be fine.
This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office). In the seasons it provides a weekly cycle (plus an "any day" seasonal psalm), and in ordinary time it provides a cycle for each day of the week.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Thanks for the info re the English Office. I'm sorely tempted, but for now I think I ought to refrain. My wallet will appreciate it, and I think the multiple options I already have are becoming a distraction. Can abstinence from buying prayer books be a Lenten discipline? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time working out the tunes, yet when I get to actually praying, I still don't get it right. I also find that when I sing I don't pay attention to the words. Even when singing hymns in church, I finish and have no idea what had just sung. Chanting has become more of a distraction than an aid, so for the moment I've given up on it and settle for a said office. I was just wondering how this works for other folks?
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time working out the tunes, yet when I get to actually praying, I still don't get it right. I also find that when I sing I don't pay attention to the words. Even when singing hymns in church, I finish and have no idea what had just sung. Chanting has become more of a distraction than an aid, so for the moment I've given up on it and settle for a said office. I was just wondering how this works for other folks?
You'll find that some here chant, while some don't. I, too, find it hard to concentrate on the text while chanting, especially if I am sight-reading Gregorian neumes, so I prefer reading/speaking as well. However, with practice at certain tones, I've gotten to the point where I am familiar enough to pull them out for special occasions.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best. I find I spend an inordinate amount of time working out the tunes, yet when I get to actually praying, I still don't get it right. I also find that when I sing I don't pay attention to the words. Even when singing hymns in church, I finish and have no idea what had just sung. Chanting has become more of a distraction than an aid, so for the moment I've given up on it and settle for a said office. I was just wondering how this works for other folks?
Nothing wrong with a said office. If you want to chant, you can keep it simple and just chant most things on one note, and use a familiar chant tone for the psalms and canticles.
Or a form of "recto tono": everything on one note but drop to a lower note at the end of the first half of each verse, and finish the verse on the original tone.
The simplest chants reflected the punctuation of the text anyway, so you could have a reciting note for most of the text, a lower note for the last syllable of a sentence, and a higher note for a comma or other intermediate punctuation. It should become very natural before too long.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I say everything apart from the Office Hymn and the Gospel Canticle. My Magnificat chant remains constant the whole year*, whereas my Benedictus chant varies within the season (using the seasonal chants supplied by LOTH).
Maybe chanting some of the constant elements to a constant chant might be a good "half-way house" for you if you want more chanting?
--
*I use one from the ECUSA 1982, actually, despite praying LOTH.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Another question: Do folks chant the offices? It sounded like a good idea to me, but hasn't worked out very well, even though I've chanted in church and on retreats, so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me. However, my musical skills are none too stellar, and my sight reading is rudimentary at best.
When I'm not worried it'll bother the housemates, I'll chant (read: lately, whenever I feel like it). Otherwise, I'll say it or even read it silently ('cause I don't care if the people I live with are jerks about being noisy when others are sleeping, 6am is too early to be chanting or talking loudly).
I tend to follow Dumbledore's Rules of Chanting, namely, "Everyone pick a favorite tune and sing along!"
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Wilfried, I have been thinking about chanting the offices all day now. If you want to try something, the Psalm tones in Lutheran Book of Worship and its replacement Evangelical Lutheran Worship are relatively easy to use. They are basically simplified Anglican Chant, with only four notes each for each part. Some of them are two-part tones, meaning each verse uses the same set, while others are four-part, meaning every other verse uses the same set. There is enough variety that one can find a tone that matches the mood of the Psalm or the occasion. Finding the tone is the tough part! Chanting it is easy!
Here is the entire Psalter, including tones and explanation of tones, from ELW (big pdf file). The Psalter is an updated version of the BCP 79 one, which was used almost in its entirety in LBW.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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RCD
Shipmate
# 11440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
I was hoping to be pointed to ones which might "tailor" the Office a little more to include psalms appropriate to the season as well.
Tables will be fine.
This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office). In the seasons it provides a weekly cycle (plus an "any day" seasonal psalm), and in ordinary time it provides a cycle for each day of the week.
Thanks dyfrig: very foolishly I had not looked at the PDTD from CW, only Morning and Evening Prayer
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
A question, wise ones, if I may.
While looking at a link a friend sent me to The Roman Martyrology, my eye caught this:
quote:
Throughout the year 2007,
the Moon is read under the letter "l"
I must admit my mind is reeling with all manner of strange ponderings as how to read the Moon under the letter l: but what does it actually mean?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
When the Moon's read to I
And divided by pi
Then it's Easter
....sorry.
I'll get my coat.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
A question, wise ones, if I may.
While looking at a link a friend sent me to The Roman Martyrology, my eye caught this:
quote:
Throughout the year 2007,
the Moon is read under the letter "l"
I must admit my mind is reeling with all manner of strange ponderings as how to read the Moon under the letter l: but what does it actually mean?
Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Dyfrig.
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
Thanks Hart. But I fear you'll have to be even more basic with someone like me. What does "the 16th day of the moon" mean? -- it is 16 days into the new moon? Is the Roman Martyrology Breviary based on the cycle of the moon?
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Thanks for everyones comments. I've gone back to a said office for now, which I do find more prayerful, though chanting sounds good (as it were) in theory. And, y'all are right, I bit off more than I can chew. I tried to do the chant in the St. Helena Breviary whole hog and got myself flummoxed and frustrated. I often do that. I did the same thing with the Anglican Breviary, though I did learn to use it that way. I'll try adding the chant back bit by bit and see how it goes.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
Thanks dyfrig: very foolishly I had not looked at the PDTD from CW, only Morning and Evening Prayer
No worries.
Another curio I picked up browsing in the intro to my copy of the Taize Office is a reference to a seasonally appropriate introductory psalms (akin to Psalm 95 at Morning Prayer in the BCP, I suppose).
It goes something like this (I'm doing it from memory so may be wrong - and it's Hebrew numbering)
Advent:
Morning - 85:1-8
Evening - 85:9-end
Christmas:
Morning - 132:8-12
Evening - 132:9-end
Lent:
Morning - 86:1-8
Evening - 86:9-end
Easter:
Morning - 118:1-14
Evening - 118:15-end
(These formed the bases for the daily introductory posrtions in these seasons in the original Taize office).
Unfortunately it doesn't give a source for these being seasonally appointed psalms.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Dyfrig.
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Look here, for example. Underneath the letter l, it says 16, so March 5th is the 16th day of the moon.
Thanks Hart. But I fear you'll have to be even more basic with someone like me. What does "the 16th day of the moon" mean? -- it is 16 days into the new moon? Is the Roman Martyrology Breviary based on the cycle of the moon?
Here is a thread about the Gregorian lunar calendar.
You know that the moon waxes and wanes, right? When she's in conjunction with the sun you can't see her. Then she moves a little bit away and, at the hour of sunset, you see a thin crescent over the western horizon with its horns pointing (if you are in the northern hemisphere) upward and to the left. Then as the days pass she becomes fuller, until the moon is full when she reaches opposition to the sun. Then she wanes back to last quarter and to waning crescent, then back to conjunction and invisibility. The whole sequence of phases from conjunction to conjunction takes about twenty-nine and a half days.
So to keep track of the moon for the purposes of computing Easter, the church fathers divided the year into lunar months of 30 and 29 days each. Most of the time the 30-day months alternate with the 29 day months, 30-29-30-29, and so on through the year. The first day of each lunar month is theoretically the day on which the thin waxing crescent first becomes visible. The moon is waxing for the first two weeks of the lunar month, that is, for the first 14 days. The moon is full on the 14th or 15th day, and is waning on the 16th to the 29th days. She is invisible on the 30th.
So "16th day of the moon" means formally 16 days after conjunction, not 16 days until conjunction. "Formally" because the alternation of the 30-day and 29-day lunar months is based on an average, rounded off to whole days, so it doesn't track the age of the moon with a precision of minutes or seconds.
Today, March 6th 2007, is the 17th day of the third moon of 2007. When the ecliipse occurred the other night, it was on either the 14th or the 15th day of the moon, depending on your time zone.
The announcement of the age of the moon at the reading of the martyrology possibly was first instituted in order to allow everyone to keep track of the Easter cycle. It was harder to lose track of the age of the moon (and therefore the Easter cycle) if the age of the moon was announced every day.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thank you muchly Mockingbird.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Question time!
I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?
(If so, where the blankety-blank are they?)
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Dyfrig
quote:
This is the Church of England "Prayer During the Day" provision (for people who only want a single office).
Not only! I use it for Terce, Sext and None. Much more variety than the US one.
The Psalm 119 provision page 24 works well with terce, the one in the office itself for sext, and the Psalms of Ascent provision work well with None.
For the lesson, simply use the same for all three, (tiring in seasons) or use the one for yesterday at Terce, today at Sext and tomorrow at None. Though often I use the "any day" mini-verse in the office itself.
Collects, the one printed, the one for the day or the cool little "seasonal" one printed just before the seasons. Found out on Monday this week that there was a Christmas and Epiphany one. Started CW in 05. Just discovered those. Myriad of options, exhausting but worthwhile.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Sorry to double post:
Spiffy said:
quote:
Question time! I only have a hazy notion what a proper or a preface is. Am I supposed to be using them in EP according to the 1979 BCP?
AFAIK, the proper is something special to the day or season. In the USA 79, I think the only propers are the psalms, lessons and collect of the day. Also, the preface are those Eucharistic things on page 377. Don't know why you'd want to use them at the Office, unless to take a phrase out and meditate on it.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
What isn't proper is called ordinary.
In the American 1979 BCP, the optional antiphons to the Venite at morning prayer, as well as the opening sentences can be proper to the season.
The collect is usually proper to the week; to get one proper to the day, one has to seek in Lesser Feasts and Fasts.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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