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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Marvin thank you for the link to the photos. The contrast is very telling between New Street - the late Osbert Lancaster's Even More Functional but without the gas masks - and the sympathetic retro refurbishment of Moor Street.
The first one, of the freight working, brings out very well the place's speleological quality. In stead of looking up at a nice overall roof, or even a LNWR train shed, there is just darkness.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Shubenacadie
Shipmate
# 5796
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Posted
Good thread, everyone. I like the description of Birmingham New Street in the caption of the first photo Ken links to.
Would it be an appropriate use of this thread to ask if anyone knows of any clubs or societies for children interested in railways? A few months ago I was visiting some friends whose son was 7 at the time (now 8); his father is something of a railway enthusiast and one of his grandfathers very much of one (and even his mother takes some interest), but they said that he feels the lack of fellow enthusiasts of his own age. I think that some of the preservation societies have junior sections, but a) these are linked to specific railways and b) I get the impression that they're more aimed at teenagers who are or soon will be old enough to start volunteering on the railways in question. Any ideas? (they live just outside Cambridge if that makes a difference).
Posts: 58 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I can't answer Shubenacadie's question I'm afraid, but I just wanted to keep this thread on page one.
To slightly change track on the stations theme: what about remote halts with no road access and hardly any trains? I've never been to any of them but I know there are a few: Berney Arms in Norfolk is one I believe.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I can't answer Shubenacadie's question I'm afraid, but I just wanted to keep this thread on page one.
To slightly change track on the stations theme: what about remote halts with no road access and hardly any trains? I've never been to any of them but I know there are a few: Berney Arms in Norfolk is one I believe.
Yes, I was taken as a very small child on the train to Berney Arms and I remember the windmill and the Norfolk Broads. The train was a little diesel rail-car (or possibly a DMU), with a memorably staccato exhaust note.
How time flys - this would ave been about 1962....
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've not caught or got off a train at Berney Arms, but I have been in a train that stopped at it. As a child I've quite often stopped at Blackwell Mill, which isn't even on most railway atlases, and seen people get off there.
Trent also (see earlier posts) had no road access, but was quite large and busy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Not exactly a station story, and there is a road:
I remember riding the Dayliner (a large self-propelled DMU-equivalent) on the Dominon Atlantic line out of Halifax, NS. About 20 miles into the woods on the way to the Annaplois Valley, the engineer sounded the horn, twice. Usually, there is a four-blast signal for level crossings, but this was just two short notes.
When we approached the next level crossing, a sandy backwoods road, there was dog at trackside. The engineer threw a copy of the day's newspaper towards the dog, which picked it up and ran back out of sight along the road.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I can't answer Shubenacadie's question I'm afraid, but I just wanted to keep this thread on page one.
To slightly change track on the stations theme: what about remote halts with no road access and hardly any trains? I've never been to any of them but I know there are a few: Berney Arms in Norfolk is one I believe.
Dovey Junction fit the bill?
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Possible candidate ~ Dovey Junction (see earlier postings). No road access, back of beyond (estuarine mud flats, if that is your idea of scenery), no shelter worth the mention, a topography that funnels all the winds going straight through the station; ie, lovely place for a November picnic ...
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I remember riding the Dayliner (a large self-propelled DMU-equivalent) on the Dominon Atlantic line out of Halifax, NS.
Are you referring to what were also called Beeliners, or Budd cars after their manufacturer?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Shubenacadie
Shipmate
# 5796
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Posted
Thankyou for rescuing the thread, Angloid -- I was worried I'd killed it.
Corrour on the West Highland Line in Scotland is a good example of a station without road access. I think it's now linked to the outside world by a private landrover track, but the nearest public road is several miles away in another direction. Despite the minimal local population, it's sometimes quite busy, as it provides access for hill walkers to mountains that are hard to reach by any other means.
Wikipedia lists several more UK stations without road access, mostly on preserved railways; Smallbrook Junction is the only one on the national network that hasn't been mentioned here yet.
Posts: 58 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
That's the one. They were called "Dayliners" in Canada - streamlined day coaches, I guess. CN's, at first, had end panels which were a deep green with two yellow curved V's, while CP's did have striping, but the stripes were alternately Tuscan Red and Yellow, so neither looked much like a bee.
The proper name, according to the builder Budd Co., was "Rail Diesel Car" or RDC
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The Budd cars were an excellent design. Each had its own power, and also ran its own auxiliaries such as lighting and airconditioning. The independent power meant that the performance of a train was consistent, no matter how many cars were added or subtracted; it also facilitated splitting a train en route, to serve different destinations. The construction in stainless steel contributed to longevity. Layout could easily be altered to suit the particular needs of a railway for freight or passenger use first or second class seating, buffets or dining cars etc. In Australia they saw use on the NSW state system, and also Commonwealth railways, including a "local" on the Nullarbor line.
The NSW DEB sets were similarly useful. Designed around a Warren Truss, rather than a conventional chassis frame, they were lighter than the HUB/RUB loco hauled sets, and still turned in a good performance. Like the Budd cars, each set had its own power, lighting and airconditioning. They did lack the versatility of layout which was such a feature of the Budd cars.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not being able to run a station without changing your mind at the last minute - after you've announced where a train is going to depart from - is a major condemnation.
It's not great, I'll admit. But I'd say that if a late-running (or, perish the thought, failed) train is occupying the platform it's better to divert trains behind it into other platforms than to make them all late as well.
They don't just do it on a whim, you know.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I see they are going to spend £50m on the worst stations.
Do you agree with their choices? Why so many in the North West? Manchester Victoria used to be great, a real period-piece, till the Metrolink reduced its status/no. of platforms and the MEN Arena was plonked over it (yes I am a hypocrite in that I went to see 'Rush' play there a few years ago!).
Lord Adonis decrying Wakefield Kirkgate is something I agree with (Me, agree with a Labour politician?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) If only it had been maintained, as it's potentially a nice station, and must have been great in LMS days.
Normanton, just up the line, is a very sad spectacle, if you know anything of its history as a once-important station. Enormous expanses of (mainly 'former') platform, with now only a bus shelter-type structure (albeit a fairly big one) in the middle. I remember the massive buidlings it used to have, but they were derelict even when I first saw them in about 1973 on a passing Plymouth-bound NE/SW express.
[ 17. November 2009, 15:23: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Do you agree with their choices?
Crewe? Preston? Are they having a laugh?
Both of those are lovely old stations with genuine atmosphere. I dread to think what might be lost if they bring in "improvements" - bulldozing the history in order to put in bland concrete and plastic, most likely.
Clapham Junction is certainly too small for the amount of traffic it gets in rush hour, but there's not much they can do about that is there?
And yeah, Manchester Victoria is a dump.
I'm not well enough acquainted with the other stations to comment.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
I was surprised to hear that Preston is in the list, though it is a bit grim on Platforms 1&2 - they were supposed to be getting upgraded anyway, so I wonder if this work is included in the new announcement to make it sound good? The Government are very good at making pronouncements which turn out to be variations on something previously decided (e.g. '1300 new trains', etc.).
As for the other NW stations, Wigan NW is a dire place on a wet and windy day and Warrington I guess has seen better days. But then I go to stations to catch trains, not to enjoy a 'retail experience'. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Hugal
Shipmate
# 2734
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Posted
Preston station is fine. The cafe and shops have reacently been done over. It needs a spruce up maybe but it is not that bad.
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I have never done this trick in these trousers before.
Posts: 1887 | From: london | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I see they are going to spend £50m on the worst stations.
Do you agree with their choices? Why so many in the North West? Manchester Victoria used to be great, a real period-piece, till the Metrolink reduced its status/no. of platforms and the MEN Arena was plonked over it (yes I am a hypocrite in that I went to see 'Rush' play there a few years ago!).
Lord Adonis decrying Wakefield Kirkgate is something I agree with (Me, agree with a Labour politician?? ) If only it had been maintained, as it's potentially a nice station, and must have been great in LMS days.
Normanton, just up the line, is a very sad spectacle, if you know anything of its history as a once-important station. Enormous expanses of (mainly 'former') platform, with now only a bus shelter-type structure (albeit a fairly big one) in the middle. I remember the massive buidlings it used to have, but they were derelict even when I first saw them in about 1973 on a passing Plymouth-bound NE/SW express.
I think many of the worst stations are in the North West because, as someone has already mentioned, the old railways up there didn't invest a lot in passenger facilities: look at the LNWR: superb permanent way, state-of-the-art locomotive design (even if Webb's compounds did odd things at times) but passengers were regarded as a nuisance. That was the leading railway and the others hardly needed to compete.
Clapham Junction was designed for trains and does that job well. The passengers were an afterthought and some platforms are narrower, in proportion, than on a space-starved train set.
Luton station is doomed. The only way to improve it would involve moving it at least four miles north or south ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
(I too remember seeing Normanton from a SW/NE express in c1971 : what a gloomy place I thought)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I don't know who came up with that top ten "worst stations" but I did not see many of mine on the list. I would agree with them including Clapham Junction, Liverpool Central, and Warrington Bank Quay, but I don't think there is much you can do about any of them.
My own personal British Railway hellholes are:
1. Meadowhall - a modern 4 platform station serving the eponymous shoppig mall on the northside of Sheffield. SYPTE likes you to change trains there when travelling from say Doncaster to Barnsley. I have never been so cold...
2. Wakefield Kirkgate - an attractive station, but badly neglected. Closer to the city centre than Westgate, it could be developed as a major local transportation hub.
3. Halifax - last time I was there it looked like the Apaches had hit it. Lousy disabled access.
4. Birmingham New Street - mainly due to the gloom at platform level. I wish they had built over the station throat not over the public part of the station.
5. Habrough, Lincs. - I change there on the way to my mother's. Used to be a nice manned station with a heated waiting room. All now demolished and replaced by two mildly vandalized shelters. Good excuse to hide in the pub.
6. Dundee - unattractive 60s rebuild of the old Tay Bridge Station. Thankfully it is to be rebuilt. I just wish I did not have the feeling that when they are finished with it, it is going to be even more ugly and inconvenient.
7. Forres - Beeching era remnants for the former triangular junction station. Badly needs a facelift.
I should perhaps also add my ten favourites.
10. Edinburgh Waverley - still retains quite a lot of its atmosphere despite all the modernisation.
09. Stirling - usually very well kept.
08. Lincoln Central - nice medium sized junction.
07. Birmingham Moor Street - very pleasant;far more so than either New Street or Snow Hill.
06. Shrewsbury - nice pseudo Tudor station that no-one has ever bothered to mess around with too much.
05. Bristol Temple Meads
04. York - great overall roof; but I liked it better before electrification.
03. London Marylebone - the only terminus in London where the atmosphere is not suppled by the tannoy.
02. Cambridge - convenient when you have luggage. Unusual survival of an arhaic layout.
01. Glasgow Central - clean and bright these days, and remarkably easy to find your way around for a big terminus.
There are some near misses for the top ten list. Hull Paragon is a transformed character now that it incorporates the bus station. Newcastle Central's mid 1990s refurbishment improved it considerably. Also I have always been very fond of St. Pancras.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chris P. Bacon
Apprentice
# 15262
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shubenacadie:
Thankyou for rescuing the thread, Angloid -- I was worried I'd killed it.
Corrour on the West Highland Line in Scotland is a good example of a station without road access. I think it's now linked to the outside world by a private landrover track, but the nearest public road is several miles away in another direction. Despite the minimal local population, it's sometimes quite busy, as it provides access for hill walkers to mountains that are hard to reach by any other means.
Wikipedia lists several more UK stations without road access, mostly on preserved railways; Smallbrook Junction is the only one on the national network that hasn't been mentioned here yet.
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Chris P. Bacon
People in glass houses shouldn't cast beams into the moat - C.J.
Posts: 3 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Nov 2009
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Getting back to North America, the Budd cars, or "RDC cars" as we called them, were rough-riding. I remember as a lad taking a two or three-car RDC lashup from Pittsburgh to Washington, D.C. and it was a pretty rocky ride through the mountains of southwestern Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Chris P. Bacon
Apprentice
# 15262
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shubenacadie:
Thankyou for rescuing the thread, Angloid -- I was worried I'd killed it.
Corrour on the West Highland Line in Scotland is a good example of a station without road access. I think it's now linked to the outside world by a private landrover track, but the nearest public road is several miles away in another direction. Despite the minimal local population, it's sometimes quite busy, as it provides access for hill walkers to mountains that are hard to reach by any other means.
Wikipedia lists several more UK stations without road access, mostly on preserved railways; Smallbrook Junction is the only one on the national network that hasn't been mentioned here yet.
Riccarton Junction was a station without road access. Since the closure of the Waverley route in the 1960s it has been without rail access as well, so the only way to get to it is to walk along the track bed!
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Chris P. Bacon
People in glass houses shouldn't cast beams into the moat - C.J.
Posts: 3 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Nov 2009
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
I loved St Pancras when I saw it (on my way back to Euston - now there's a dump if ever there was one)
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Further to Gee D's post on the "Budd cars." My family was in Victoria, British Columbia a few years ago, and VIA Rail Canada still was operating a two-car RDC train from Victoria north to Courtenay, along the Straits of Georgia. A gorgeous run in some very old (but still usable) equipment. I just checked the VIA website, and that train remains on the schedule.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I think many of the worst stations are in the North West because, as someone has already mentioned, the old railways up there didn't invest a lot in passenger facilities: look at the LNWR: superb permanent way, state-of-the-art locomotive design (even if Webb's compounds did odd things at times) but passengers were regarded as a nuisance.
The permanent way, yes, and the stations were dreadful. Gaunt, drafty and ramshackle. I've already commented on the old Euston once one got beyond the arch and the Great Hall. Rugby was bleak, Crewe a jumbled mess. A lot of L&Y ones weren't much better. Does anyone remember the old Liverpool Exchange?
I wouldn't agree with you about state-of-the-art locomotive design. I'm not a GWR person, but Churchward made some very pertinent remarks to the GWR about why his engines cost a lot more to build than the LNWR ones. LNWR engines were cheap and basic. That's why their last passenger engines only just made 1948 and never got their new numbers. They rattled to pieces.
The Super Ds lasted well into the 60s, but I've heard they were right pigs to drive or fire.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Getting back to North America, the Budd cars, or "RDC cars" as we called them, were rough-riding. I remember as a lad taking a two or three-car RDC lashup from Pittsburgh to Washington, D.C. and it was a pretty rocky ride through the mountains of southwestern Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
That would be the Baltimore & Ohio run, right? Sure it wasn't the poor right of way on the B&O? Good road, excellent attitude to passenger service for an Eastern carrier, but never awash with money until it merged with the Chessie.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
LAD: the RDCs you rode on must have been starved for maintenance, since the air-supplemented suspension was quite good for secondary track. The CPR service I mentioned, for instance, was using cars that were, even then, 20 years old, and that rode pleasantly on light rail laid on sand-ballasted trackbed.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I used to take a Budd car every afternoon between Poughkeepsie and Croton-Harmon on the old New York Central, before it became Penn Central. In Croton-Harmon I changed to an electric train for the remainder of the trip to Grand Central.
I remember the Budd cars as glamorous from the outside but not so much on the inside. They were rocky, as L.A. Dave said, and reeked of diesel fumes. And they were noisy. The smoking section was partitioned off behind plexiglass paneling.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
the stations were dreadful. Gaunt, drafty and ramshackle. I've already commented on the old Euston once one got beyond the arch and the Great Hall. Rugby was bleak, Crewe a jumbled mess. A lot of L&Y ones weren't much better. Does anyone remember the old Liverpool Exchange?
Crewe is depressing. So is Chester (though I think it was a joint GWR/LNWR station). I remember Liverpool Exchange only in its final dying days, and it was gloomy and neglected, but it looked as if it had been magnificent.
As for the stations on the list for refurbishment. Clapham Junction is fascinating (actually it is two stations) just because of its incredible busy-ness. Which is what causes the problems. Its difficult to see what could be done about it except perhaps rebuild and enlarge the subway and improve access to it.
Wigan and Warrington are similar: 1970s designs that have outlived their usefulness. They are draughty and exposed because of their geographical position, but that could be fairly easily put right by better platform facilities and much better approach to the platforms and public 'concourse' space.
I don't know any of the others well enough to comment, except Liverpool Central (Northern line). Though much smaller than Clapham, its main problem is undercapacity for the large numbers of passengers, which is exacerbated by being a sub-surface station only slightly adapted from its days as the terminus of the pre-loop Wirral line. The escalators are in the wrong place; the platforms are too narrow, there is almost no passenger seating except at the extreme ends of the platform. The 70s decor mentioned in the BBC report is not the issue, apart from the chewing-gum spattered rubber floors which are long overdue for replacement. It's difficult to see how it can be much improved since the site is so constricted. I suspect if train frequency was increased from every 15 to every 10 minutes on all routes, the build-up of passengers would be less and it would be more pleasant. As would a bit of lane discipline on the part of escalator users, but, hey, these are scousers we're talking about.
This is turning into a long post and almost a hellish rant (though they wouldn't understand it down there): but I need to moan about Pacers. (Class 142 I believe). You know, the train that thinks its a bus, looks like a bus, smells like a bus, rattles like a bus... I travelled on one today: a 15 mile journey that took 45 minutes. They were designed as an economy model that used a pre-existing bus body design, plonked on a rudimentary four-wheel chassis. (Most of the buses built to this design were retired years ago). Like a bus, they cram in far too many seats and like a bus, there is only one door at the front of each vehicle so that it takes an age to disgorge and embark passengers. They are slow and noisy, and when they try to go slightly faster they are bone-shakingly uncomfortable.
They were intended for rural branch lines, but of course most of these had been closed by the time they were built, so instead they have been deployed on suburban routes and long-distance trains (for example, the Morecambe/Lancaster to Leeds service which takes well over 2 hours). Fortunately the line I've just travelled on is about to be electrified, but anywhere else in Europe this would have been done 50 years ago.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This is turning into a long post and almost a hellish rant (though they wouldn't understand it down there): but I need to moan about Pacers. (Class 142 I believe). You know, the train that thinks its a bus, looks like a bus, smells like a bus, rattles like a bus... I travelled on one today: a 15 mile journey that took 45 minutes. They were designed as an economy model that used a pre-existing bus body design, plonked on a rudimentary four-wheel chassis. (Most of the buses built to this design were retired years ago). Like a bus, they cram in far too many seats and like a bus, there is only one door at the front of each vehicle so that it takes an age to disgorge and embark passengers. They are slow and noisy, and when they try to go slightly faster they are bone-shakingly uncomfortable.
They were intended for rural branch lines, but of course most of these had been closed by the time they were built, so instead they have been deployed on suburban routes and long-distance trains (for example, the Morecambe/Lancaster to Leeds service which takes well over 2 hours). Fortunately the line I've just travelled on is about to be electrified, but anywhere else in Europe this would have been done 50 years ago. [/QB]
Pacer is a dirty word in my vocabulary too. They were the result of someone being foolish enough to answer the question "what happens if you put a Leyland National bus body on a souped up coal wagon chassis and stick an engine under it?"
There are actually three classes of the bloody things - 142, 143 and 144. The 142, with Leyland bodies are the worst; the 143 and 144s with Alexander Barclay bodies are slightly better.
Like a lot of BR's least popular rolling stock they were built for one job and ended up on another. They were built for short commuter runs such as Leeds-Skipton; Manchester-Oldham; Newastle-Hexham; and for rural branches such as Cleethorpes-Barton, Wrexham-Bidston and Oxenholme-Windermere. However, they also ended up on jobs for which they were unsuited - e.g. Leeds-Lancaster-Morecambe.
Their career on my local line ended when the 153 single cars became available. By that time the 142s had a reputation for breaking sleepers and spreading the gauge on the tighest curves. They now only appear if absolutely nothing else is available.
The one oddity of the local branch is the first train of the day is provided by a relatively heavyweight Cl 185 Transpennine Unit, then the Cl.153 strats its steady plod back and forth for the other eight round trips.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Sorry about the DP, but I forgot a bit.
The prototype for the Pacers were the Cl 141 Metrotrains which were built for West Yorkshre in 1984 and are now thankfully gone. They worked OK for things like Harrogate-Leeds. However, they brought with them both a more frequent service and increased ridership so they soon got to the point where they were no longer tolerable.
When I was a student I used to wrack up some fairly serious amounts of time on the blessed things because they operated most of the short distance trains out of Leeds. I think the worst trip though, was on the way to Ireland when I was stuck with 142s all the way from Sheffield to Llandudno Jct.. If I had had my wits about me I would have changed at Chester, as the connecting service was Euston-Holyhead boat train of Cl.47 hauled Mk2s! However, I had not fancied almost an hour in the cold at Chester.
PD
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This is turning into a long post and almost a hellish rant (though they wouldn't understand it down there)
Who wouldn't? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
On the subject of Pacers: as an enthusiast I like them, because they look different and in this modern age of conformity difference is good. As a passenger, I hate them for all but the shortest journeys. Fortunately we don't get them round here
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
On the subject of Pacers: as an enthusiast I like them, because they look different and in this modern age of conformity difference is good.
If I were a bus enthusiast, I might like them too. They might one day (when there are only two or three left in captivity) look as quirky and unusual as some of the strange hybrid vehicles one sees in vintage photographs of old branch lines.
They might. But to me they will always be crap, look crap, smell crap and sound crap. Boggler, boggler, as Guardian cartoonist Steve Bell would put it onomatopeically.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
They might one day (when there are only two or three left in captivity) look as quirky and unusual as some of the strange hybrid vehicles one sees in vintage photographs of old branch lines.
But they already do! Like it or not, they're part of the history of railways in this country every bit as much as A4s or HSTs.
And when it does come to preserving them, I think there are many lines that could use one or two. Lines like the NYMR, SVR and WSR could provide a genuine year-round local service as well as their heritage trains if it weren't for the huge cost - Pacers could enable them to do so cheaply, and at the same time help to take more cars off the roads ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
Yeah, it's a dream. But just imagine the possibilities...
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Hail Gallaxhar
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
NYMR will probably pass on them due to the number and severity of the curves on that route. The decibel output of a Pacer going around a sharp bend has to be heard to be believed!
I cannot believe the change there has been on the British Railway network since the mid-1980s when I first started travelling large swathes of it. Much of it has been for the better in terms of rolling stock and timetabling, but there are certain things that I miss. Pretty high on that list is the etwork of mail and newspaper trains that used to operate in the dead of night - usually with one or two Mk1. carriages for anyone who wanted to travel at that hour of the night. The bench seats of a BR Mk1 carriage were a handy place to doss down for a few hours whilst the train wandered its way across country. I also miss some of the weird through workings the timetable could throw up before sectorization. For example, Hull - Birmingham - Oxford - Paddington; or my own personal favourite - Newark Northgate to Sheffield via Barnetby and Gainsborough.
Another one that got a cheer from me was the daily Cleethorpes to Blackpool. I also used to get a kick out of the Edinburgh - Scarborough - Edinburgh train that operated every summer.
PD
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And when it does come to preserving [Pacers], I think there are many lines that could use one or two. Lines like the NYMR, SVR and WSR could provide a genuine year-round local service as well as their heritage trains if it weren't for the huge cost - Pacers could enable them to do so cheaply, and at the same time help to take more cars off the roads .
Fair point. If they are suited to anything, these 'trains' are better on rural branches than anywhere else. What they are not suited to is intensive commuter services or long-distance travel.
You're lucky if there are few of them left round your way. My local line, fortunately, is electrified but many other services here in the north-west rely on them almost totally.
I feel another rant coming on: diesel trains running 'under the wires' for the greater portion of their journeys. Either because penny-pinching governments have left short but strategic sections of track unelectrified, or because train companies have more diesel trains than electric ones (cf Virgin Trains (or maybe Cross=country now, I'm not sure) services from Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh, which should be worked by electric trains not diesel ones.
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
NYMR will probably pass on them due to the number and severity of the curves on that route. The decibel output of a Pacer going around a sharp bend has to be heard to be believed!
I cannot believe the change there has been on the British Railway network since the mid-1980s when I first started travelling large swathes of it. Much of it has been for the better in terms of rolling stock and timetabling, but there are certain things that I miss. Pretty high on that list is the etwork of mail and newspaper trains that used to operate in the dead of night - usually with one or two Mk1. carriages for anyone who wanted to travel at that hour of the night. The bench seats of a BR Mk1 carriage were a handy place to doss down for a few hours whilst the train wandered its way across country. I also miss some of the weird through workings the timetable could throw up before sectorization. For example, Hull - Birmingham - Oxford - Paddington; or my own personal favourite - Newark Northgate to Sheffield via Barnetby and Gainsborough.
Another one that got a cheer from me was the daily Cleethorpes to Blackpool. I also used to get a kick out of the Edinburgh - Scarborough - Edinburgh train that operated every summer.
PD
Heaven forfend that the NYMR should ever get a 'Pacer'! They are indeed terrible to hear on curves: the curve just south of Crimple Beck Viaduct near Harrogate is one of the worst, if you are unlucky enough to get a 'Pacer'! Thankfully my first train of the day, boarded at a station further south but on the same line, is usually a 153+155 3-coach 'Sprinter' these days. You still get some off-peak services worked by 'Pacers' on the Harrogate line, though. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
I agree entirely as to the sad loss of more interesting workings. In about 1980 we returned from our Cornish family holiday on a through (summer Saturday) Newquay to Newcastle train (Mk 1 stock, and IIRC a Class 40 up front ). It took a lot longer (>6 hours) than if we had changed at Par onto a SW-NE 'HST!
[ 18. November 2009, 15:07: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
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Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Interestingly enough, National Express East Anglia are thinking about this "diesels under the wires" business. They run Turbostars between Liverpool Street and either Peterborough or Lowestoft. Not only does this include London-Ipswich which is electrified, but the trains are only 3 cars and can get very crowded (not to mention poor use of an intensively-used line).
From December next year the plan is to start these trains at Ipswich, possibly running them more frequently. The problem is that this involves changing at Ipswich, which people don't like doing, although we are promised existing lifts as well as the existing footbridge.
Many of the freight trains down to Felixstowe from the London direction do change between electric and diesel; those that go north towards Ely have to reverse but maintain diesel traction.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Re. unusual workings: there used to be a Saturday Poole-Sheffield train which travelled via Addlestone, Feltham, Brentford and Dudden Hill, changing from a class 33 to a 47 at Brent. It was non-stop for passengers between Basingstoke and St. Albans.
When I tried to use it, I was told at Southampton that I couldn't buy a single to St. Albans! I got one in the end, but it was no surprise to find the train virtually empty. We got signal-stopped at Mill Hill (my local station) - that was great, so I got off. The guard wasn't pleased!
I think this stopped in 1973.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
My favourite odd train journey was the Edinburgh to Harwich boat train that went via Manchester.
No I am not making that up, travelled on it several times. It was the only direct train from Edinburgh to Nottingham in the day back then and cheaper than going East Coast mainline.
I also have a direct train from Sheffield to the nearest station about 100 yards from a church I used to attend (unfortunately have to change at Manchester Piccadilly on the way back which blows going to the evening service regularly).
Jengie
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
That was the "North Country Continuental". But are you sure it came from Edinburgh and you didn't change at Manchester?
Today the furthest places you can get to direct from Harwich are Bury St. Edmunds and Cambridge - not even Ely any more!
By the way, it was only a few years ago when my wife wanted to travel from Liverpool to London one Sunday. The WCML was closed due to engineering works - but there was a regular Liverpool - Paddington train. Does that still run? (You had to be cunning in timetable-reading to detect it!)
[ 18. November 2009, 15:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If they are suited to anything, these 'trains' are better on rural branches than anywhere else. What they are not suited to is intensive commuter services or long-distance travel.
Heartily agreed.
quote:
You're lucky if there are few of them left round your way.
Not "few", "none". And it's not "none left", there never were Pacers in Birmingham, we've always had Sprinters instead. The nearest Pacers to here are those used on the Valley Lines in South Wales, barring the odd one that finds its way up to Worcester on the local from Bristol.
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Hail Gallaxhar
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I don't know who came up with that top ten "worst stations" but I did not see many of mine on the list.
It turns out that the list is not the top ten "all time" worst, but the bottom 10 of the 66 'regional interchange' stations. The list makes a little more sense to me now.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
By the way, it was only a few years ago when my wife wanted to travel from Liverpool to London one Sunday. The WCML was closed due to engineering works - but there was a regular Liverpool - Paddington train. Does that still run? (You had to be cunning in timetable-reading to detect it!)
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But what they don't tell you when the WCML is blockaded, that it is often quicker (and cheaper*) to get a train to Birmingham (London Midland semi-fast), and pick up a Marylebone train from Moor Street. Far better than piling onto a slow and cramped bus at Nuneaton or somewhere.
*because when the regular timetable is abandoned, so are the cheap advance fares which are tied to particular trains. So you pay twice as much, or more, for an inferior service.
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
You're lucky if there are few of them left round your way.
Not "few", "none". And it's not "none left", there never were Pacers in Birmingham, we've always had Sprinters instead. The nearest Pacers to here are those used on the Valley Lines in South Wales, barring the odd one that finds its way up to Worcester on the local from Bristol. [/QB]
You are so lucky.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
The last time I rode an RDC was between Detroit and Ann Arbor, on pretty good Penn Central roadbed. I don't recall the ride as being terrible, but the interiors were clearly not of the standard of Pullman-Standard or Budd locomotive hauled cars.
Speaking of the latter, my favorite coaches/chair cars were those built for C&O by Pullman-Standard in the early 1950s. Instead of having all of the seats in a long tube, there was a curvy partition separating the two sections of the car, making it feel much more intimate.
On a steam excursion this summer, some of the rolling stock included cars built by Budd for Pennsy's 1952 "Congressional." Very nice cars, extremely quiet and good riding on pretty marginal track.
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
{Drags back the subject of Pacers}
As an every-day user of the services between Bargoed and Ystrad Mynach (Rhymney Valley) I can tell you that, in one particular respect, the dreaded Pacers (classes 142 and 143) have an advantage over the more civilised Sprinters (class 150) ~ better bicycle accomodation.
OK, it isn't exactly brilliant even then, but at least there is room for bicycles at both ends of a 142/143 ~ round here the 150's only have space at one end, and then you have to share it with push-chairs!
It's a far cry from the days of the 4VEP's and 2SUB's on the Waterloo to Reading line in the early 1980's, when I was regularly taking my bikes on the trains. At least in those days there was a guards van with proper space for bicycles &c.
I suppose we cyclists just have to be grateful for small mercies ...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That was the "North Country Continuental". But are you sure it came from Edinburgh and you didn't change at Manchester?
I got off at Manchester that being where my parents lived, but yes it started in Edinburgh and went through to Harwich. We are talking 1984-1988 vintage now. St Andrews students got the train Leuchars to Waverley, bordered this one at Waverley (it was deemed better to do that than wait Haymarket, however on the way up you always changed at Haymarket), this train whose final destination was Harwich. It left about 3 p.m. in the afternoon irc definitely afternoon but may be 2 p.m. or 4 p.m.. Oh I once did the Manchester Harwich leg. That was early August/September 1987. So yes I am sure.
Jengie
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That was the "North Country Continuental". But are you sure it came from Edinburgh and you didn't change at Manchester?
I got off at Manchester that being where my parents lived, but yes it started in Edinburgh and went through to Harwich. We are talking 1984-1988 vintage now. St Andrews students got the train Leuchars to Waverley, bordered this one at Waverley (it was deemed better to do that than wait Haymarket, however on the way up you always changed at Haymarket), this train whose final destination was Harwich. It left about 3 p.m. in the afternoon irc definitely afternoon but may be 2 p.m. or 4 p.m.. Oh I once did the Manchester Harwich leg. That was early August/September 1987. So yes I am sure.
Jengie
I remember the North Country Continental was originally a joint Great Central/Great Eastern train. Originally it time ran via the GN/GE Joint line between March, Spalding and Lincoln Central and over Woodhead. It was diverted via the Hope Valley in 1971, and via Nottingham sometime later in the 1970s. IIRC it then ran into Sheffield "the back way" to avoid reversal in Sheffield Midland.
I also have a dim recollection of either the NCC, or the Nottingham-Glasgow train running over a little used spur in Adwick into Manchester Vic, rather than Pic in pre-Windsor link days before continuing forward to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow/Edinburgh.
Until the March-Spalding line closed in 1982, Lincoln Central was a good place to stake out on a Saturday. The 1980-81 WTT shows a number of Saturday only loco-hauled trains:
Yarmouth-Newcastle
Yarmouth-Manchester
Skegness-Derby
Skegness-Leeds
Skegness-Manchester
Yarmouth-Leeds
Yarmouth-Sheffield
They all had southbound balancing workings. The peak time for this long distance trains was around 1pm. My recollection of those trains was that they were mainly Cl.47 hauled Mk1s, but there was always the chance of something more interesting like a Cl.40, or a pair of 25s. Even after the Yarmouth trains disappeared, the Skeggy to Everywhere trains kept going until after sectorization, but as time passed they were increasing routed via Barkston and Nottingham, rather than Lincoln. I am sure that that story can be repeated for just about every major seaside resort in the UK.
PD
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