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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Strictly Come Gardening On Ice
careful or someone will steal your idea!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[eta: to be fair, I think that last "enthusiast" thread I started was on soap. so by all means, carry on!]
[ 05. October 2009, 17:57: Message edited by: comet ]
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
....heck, railway modelling used to be the done thing amongst Anglican clergy!
When they got home from their masonic lodges (see thread in Hell) ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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David
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
+Eric Treacy was a noted railway photographer
So much so that he met his Maker on the platform of Appleby station.
But this thread is seriously weird. I like trains and might have even dared (once) call myself an 'enthusiast': but I've not come across anything in Ecclesiantics quite so determinedly jargon-filled and impenetrable to outsiders as this. I suppose it depends where you're coming from though.
But don't let me stop the fun.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Comet, would you feel any better about this if I told you there was an engine called Comet, and also an express called 'the Comet'? The engine was 45735 and was one of only two Jubilees rebuilt with 7P boilers. The express ran from London to Manchester.
Not many people know that, and it's evidence of serious insanity to want to.
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
I dont know what that all means, but it sounds good!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
a picture of one of the trains he is talking about.
Jengie
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Back to my blog
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chiltern_hundred
Shipmate
# 13659
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Posted
quote:
+Eric Treacy was a noted railway photographer ...
and the Thomas the Tank Engine books were written by an Anglican clergyman, who set them in Sodor, the less visible part of the Diocese of Sodor and Man.
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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Comet, would you feel any better about this if I told you there was an engine called Comet, and also an express called 'the Comet'? The engine was 45735 and was one of only two Jubilees rebuilt with 7P boilers. The express ran from London to Manchester.
Not many people know that, and it's evidence of serious insanity to want to.
Also 5735 'Comet' (and her sister 'Phoenix') were, along with several other 'Jubilees', named after very early steam locos, I think from the London & Birmingham Railway (and the Liverpool & Manchester).
We've had some good stuff on Irish diesels. What about Irish steam? Anyone else a fan of the three B1a 4-6-0s? Very Like the rebuilt 'Jubilees' or 'Scots' to look at, except their boilers weren't actually tapered, but the boiler cladding was built up to achieve that look. I'd love to see the preserved No. 800 'Meadhbh' blasting out of Cork bound for Dublin but alas! this is unliklely to ever happen again! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Tangential question: How does one sound out the "dhbh" of "Maedhbh"? And why does it work that way?
It looks like a rather rude noise made by a small boy.
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It's Not That Simple
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Her name is pronounced "Mave" and usually rendered Maeve in English. All steam locomotives are female, like ships. In this respect the Rev Awdry was wrong.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Her name is pronounced "Mave" and usually rendered Maeve in English. All steam locomotives are female, like ships. In this respect the Rev Awdry was wrong.
Maeve is a part Anglicized version of the name. IIRC the Irish alphabet does not have 'v' among its characters.
The three members B1a class were built for the Dublin-Cork mail trains just before WWII. I seem to remember reading that the top brass at GSR wanted to accelerate the Cork Mail to three shours for a 165.5 mile run. This needed something with a lot more power than the existing GSR 4-6-0 hence the construction of the three B1as. They only had one or two seasons to show what they were made of, and they proved to be very competant locomotives. However, conditions during "the Emergency" and in the Fuel Crisis of 1945-48 did not allow them to show their paces, and by 1950 (the first real post-War season) dieselisation had started. 800-802 were therefore left to lug the heavy, but now much slower, mail trains between Dublin and Cork.
Another interesting pair of designs for an Irish railway were the GNR "Compounds"of 1932 and their three cylinder simple cousins built in 1948. The latter were the last 4-4-0s built for mainline running in the UK and Ireland. Both classes were very fast and reliable runners with the pre-1939 Dublin to Belfast expresses - with three stops - taking about 2hrs and 15 mins. This was similar to the timings offered by NIR/CIE on the Enterprise service before the Dublin to Dundalk section was upgraded in the mid 1990s. After WW2 with the track in worse shape and heavier loads, the best Dublin-Belfast timing was 135 minutes on the non-stop "Enterprise."
PD
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The post about Irish train speeds jogged my memory to remind me that I have a 1944 timetable (the "Official Guide of the Railways" for North merica, no less!)
At that time, the Maritimes, particularly the ports, were a big deal on CN, since everything going overseas went through those ports in winter, when the St. Lawrence froze. But still only three through trains a day, each way, with extra sections for overloads. (Not to mention all the freights and extras like troop trains)
Typically 5 hours for 187 miles, Moncton to Campbellton (4h50m for one), with 4 stops, including one for coal and water. BUT this is with at least 12 cars, and up to 18, or 1000 to 1500 tons, and the loco had to provide steam heat at -20.
AND on single track with passing sidings. Passenger trains took precedence over freight, and westbound over eastbound. But the speed differential couldn't be too high.
It actually says a lot that the stopping train, that did all the mail and parcels for the other 19 stations on the way only took 2 hours longer!
The fact that the present-day one-train-a-day Ocean Limited service does the run in 4h30min, using diesels with twice the horsepower of the 4-8-4s and second-hand Nightstar stock, indicates how little anyone cares about passenger rail here.
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It's Not That Simple
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Strangely Warmed
Apprentice
# 13188
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Posted
quote:
I've not come across anything in Ecclesiantics quite so determinedly jargon-filled and impenetrable to outsiders as this.
I've long maintained that Anglo-Catholicism is the ecclesiastical equivalent of train-spotting. I mean that in the very nicest possible way, as a devotee of both.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Strangely Warmed:
quote:
I've not come across anything in Ecclesiantics quite so determinedly jargon-filled and impenetrable to outsiders as this.
I've long maintained that Anglo-Catholicism is the ecclesiastical equivalent of train-spotting. I mean that in the very nicest possible way, as a devotee of both.
Well quite. I'd defy anyone to tell the difference (assuming they swapped costumes) between the volunteer crew of a preserved steam railway and a branch of the Guild of Servants of the Sanctuary. Actually, it could well be the same people. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I know of at least one United Church of Canada minister who was buried with a model of Canadian Pacific diesel in his casket. He was a good friend of mine.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The post about Irish train speeds jogged my memory to remind me that I have a 1944 timetable (the "Official Guide of the Railways" for North merica, no less!)
At that time, the Maritimes, particularly the ports, were a big deal on CN, since everything going overseas went through those ports in winter, when the St. Lawrence froze. But still only three through trains a day, each way, with extra sections for overloads. (Not to mention all the freights and extras like troop trains)
Typically 5 hours for 187 miles, Moncton to Campbellton (4h50m for one), with 4 stops, including one for coal and water. BUT this is with at least 12 cars, and up to 18, or 1000 to 1500 tons, and the loco had to provide steam heat at -20.
AND on single track with passing sidings. Passenger trains took precedence over freight, and westbound over eastbound. But the speed differential couldn't be too high.
It actually says a lot that the stopping train, that did all the mail and parcels for the other 19 stations on the way only took 2 hours longer!
The fact that the present-day one-train-a-day Ocean Limited service does the run in 4h30min, using diesels with twice the horsepower of the 4-8-4s and second-hand Nightstar stock, indicates how little anyone cares about passenger rail here.
Somewhere around 40mph seems to be the international average for traditionally worked single track railways. CTC/Track Circuit Block does speed things up quite a bit if there is not too much freight traffic around. The Amtrak service between Bakersfield and Oakland manages to average around 50 mph on the single track, CTC controlled BNSF mainline. This is comparible to what Irish Rail manages on the largely single track and CTC controlled routes to Galway and Westport. In both cases the relative or total absence of slow freight traffic assists average speeds. There is little or no freight to Westport and Galway, and BNSF seems to despatch the slow stuff overnight between Oakland and Bakersfield. In daylight hours the line seems to be home to only intermodal trains and Amtrak.
On double track lines you are not messing around waiting to make meets (cross trains coming the other way). This makes other (slower) traffic, line speed, curvature and the other physical characteristics of the route the main determining factor of average speeds.
PD
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Typically 5 hours for 187 miles, Moncton to Campbellton (4h50m for one), with 4 stops, including one for coal and water. BUT this is with at least 12 cars, and up to 18, or 1000 to 1500 tons, and the loco had to provide steam heat at -20.
That's a very good timing for steam on single track without troughs. UK comparables are a bit difficult as main lines were only single track in hilly areas.
Typically, though, looking at a 1950s timetable (it says something about a person's sadness quotient that they should have access to such a thing) with tablet catchers but without CTC or train orders, boat trains were allowed 1 hr 6 minutes north and slightly longer going south for the 38 miles from Stranraer to Girvan, and a minimum of 2 hours for the 73 miles from Dumfries to Stranraer. The Pines on weekdays was allowed 2 hrs 8 minutes for the 71.5 miles from Bath to Bournemouth but with 4 stops and some sections of double track. That included 57 minutes for the 26.5 miles from Bath to Evercreech Junction which included a really horrible climb. All three of those routes were hilly but might just about have been done with a full tank of water.
All of these are trains that other trains waited for at passing loops.
I didn't bother to check the Highland main line from Perth to Inverness because not only did it have two major summits, but even the expresses stopped everywhere.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Oh dear. My arcanicity seems to have reduced this thread to silence. Would it get anything going again, or arouse any interest if I mentioned that the Jubilees (see above) included sets of engines named after the provinces of Canada, the states of Australia and a lot of interesting princely states in India? Also, some famous admirals, sea battles and ships.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I've just come across this image on a new (to me) site.
It shows the Ocean Limited on the line I was discussing.
Incidental note, going back a page or so: I notice it is running lightly, so that the steam is not jetting up strongly, but there doesn't seem to be much issue with smoke drifting low, despite the feedwater heater ahead of the stack. I've seen more drift on locos with deflectors. This one shows that the deflectors do help.
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It's Not That Simple
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Gasp.
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Oh dear. My arcanicity seems to have reduced this thread to silence. Would it get anything going again, or arouse any interest if I mentioned that the Jubilees (see above) included sets of engines named after the provinces of Canada, the states of Australia and a lot of interesting princely states in India? Also, some famous admirals, sea battles and ships.
OK then, what is everyone’s favourite locomotive name (steam diesel and electric allowed)? And say why.
Mine is ‘Green Arrow’ (V2 No. 4771). It suggests speed and sounds great, and of course the loco spent most of its life in green livery (LNER apple green being of course the best livery it carried).
Runner up would probably be ‘Wolf of Badenoch’ (name carried by a P2 2-8-2, which was rebuilt as an A2/2 ‘Pacific’, then carried many years later by a Class ‘87’ electric). It sounds so evocative, and very Scottish.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
If you want evocative Scottish names carried by locomotives then the NBR 4-4-0's of the D29 and D30 classes, which carried names of characters in Sir Walter Scott's novels are fine examples.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Enoch: was the "gasp" for the impressive coal smoke display, or something else?
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It's Not That Simple
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you want evocative Scottish names carried by locomotives then the NBR 4-4-0's of the D29 and D30 classes, which carried names of characters in Sir Walter Scott's novels are fine examples.
Yes, some great names there, e.g. 'Cuddie Headrigg'! I like the NBR 4-4-0s - I wish 'Glen Douglas' would be returned to working order.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It was an expression of general admiration.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It was an expression of general admiration.
Indeed. You don't often see a hedge balanced on a locomotive (that's what it looks like to me).
[ 08. October 2009, 13:07: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
People tend not to remember just how smoky and generally dirty it was to have everything moved by burning coal.
When you're working an open throttle, it is all too easy to have some of the small stuff lifted off the grate by the draft. I'm not sure how quickly one could adjust the coal feed from the stoker if you got the balance wrong, getting the kind of smoke you see in that picture. (I've only hand-fired small engines with grates of about 24 sq. ft. on a short tourist line) I'm quite sure that there was enough coal around on an 84-sq.ft. grate to give that kind of cloud for a significant amount of time, particularly if one accelerated suddenly from coasting. And, on a warm day, the steam wouldn't be visible to mask the smoke.
Tangent: Up to the 1960's, ladies wore white gloves to show they were "dressed up". But once we got rid of coal-fired trains, and home heating changed to relatively clean fuels, everyone was "clean" all the time, so white gloves didn't matter any longer (or, at least, not as much)
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I've just come across this image on a new (to me) site.
It shows the Ocean Limited on the line I was discussing.
Incidental note, going back a page or so: I notice it is running lightly, so that the steam is not jetting up strongly, but there doesn't seem to be much issue with smoke drifting low, despite the feedwater heater ahead of the stack. I've seen more drift on locos with deflectors. This one shows that the deflectors do help.
Beautiful. The train has just passed my old house, the Campbellton Manse. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I always thought that the North British Railway had some interesting locomotive names. A real mix of history, Sir Walter Scott, and local interest. They also built some extremely good looking Atlantics for their stretch of the ECML none of which - unfortunately - survived into preservation.
The Highland Railway used to have fun with names as well.
The GWR built some extremely handsome locomotives, but got into a rut on the names after 1914. The Saints and the Stars had an interesting variety, but when it got to the Castles, Halls, Granges, and Manors, the system was taking over. One of the last batch of Halls - admittedly completed after nationalization - ended up as "Burton Agnes Hall" which is in the East Riding of Yorkshire - a long way from GWR territory!
PD
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Or the non-existent Welsh one, Bwgyr Hall.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Ahem. Individual North American locomotives typically don't have names.
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Sorry to backtrack ~ been away for a few days with no computer access ~ PD, on the subject of the BR D5700's, I think the main reason that BR scrapped rather than re-engine was down to the small number of locomotives involved, and the decision to reduce the number of "non-standard" classes. On a number of heads the D5700's could be deemed "non-standard" which made them easy candidates for elimination. I think that their Irish equivalents were built in sufficient numbers to make it uneconomic to simply scrap them, hence the decision to rebuild.
On the subject of locomotives names, has anybody come across "Bachelor's Button"? I believe that name was carried by an LNER A3 pacific, presumably named after a racehorse, as many of them were. The name appeals because of its apparent eccentricity ~ if you don't know about the racehorse connection, many LNER names seem very odd indeed (how about "Grand Parade", another A3?).
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Ahem, ahem. With the notable exception of the Dominion Atlantic, which ransacked the list of names associated with the story of Evangeline for their locos in the steam era.
The list is here Note that the locomotives pre-CP tended to have names of local significance (places, people), while the CP era gave names from the story of Evangeline.
An interesting case of a British-financed railway built in Loyalist territory using the names and story of the group that the British invaders (abetted by the intolerant Yankees) expelled forcibly to romanticise and sell a tourist operation. (Not that the Acadians were actually on display in that operation!)
They get serious credit for making Nova Scotia a well-known tourism destination, aided later by displaced Scot Alexander Graham Bell and his connections to the National Geographic magazine.
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It's Not That Simple
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Dallernwr,
I think you'll find that Batchelor's Button is the common name given to a small flower, which was often used as a buttonhole flower. Many days have passed since then.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Sorry to backtrack ~ been away for a few days with no computer access ~ PD, on the subject of the BR D5700's, I think the main reason that BR scrapped rather than re-engine was down to the small number of locomotives involved, and the decision to reduce the number of "non-standard" classes. On a number of heads the D5700's could be deemed "non-standard" which made them easy candidates for elimination. I think that their Irish equivalents were built in sufficient numbers to make it uneconomic to simply scrap them, hence the decision to rebuild.
I think you'll find that I tacitly acknowledged that fact when I wrote:
"The A and C classes were a major chunk of CIE's fleet; there was therefore an incentive to try and sort them out."
The clear implication of that sentence is that that the BR Metro-Vicks were not similarly circumstanced and warranting a sort out.
PD
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Fair point, PD ~ apologies for missing the obvious. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
... On the subject of locomotives names, has anybody come across "Bachelor's Button"? I believe that name was carried by an LNER A3 pacific, presumably named after a racehorse, as many of them were. The name appeals because of its apparent eccentricity ~ if you don't know about the racehorse connection, many LNER names seem very odd indeed (how about "Grand Parade", another A3?).
My favourite A3 name is 'Royal Lancer' (BR no. 60107). There was also 'Robert the Devil' (60110). And there was 'Gay Crusader' (60108). But we don't want to get into Dead (Race)Horses territory!!
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Even allowing for my GWR preference, I found the names of the LNER B1s a bit mystifying, until I worked out that there was a schoolteacher thing going on: obviously locospotters should learn the names of 40 diferent species of antelope
But then how to explain the presence of "Ralph Assheton" (1036) in the midst of these four-footed lion foodstuffs?
The further addition of 17 more LNER directors just complicated things more: why should people who are being booted out of office get to have their names driven all over the country?
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It's Not That Simple
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
While on the subject of Members of the Board of Directors getting their names on engines, there is a slightly wicked story about C.B. Collett, with his known socialist sympathies. It seems that one of the GWR board (an Earl) was keen to have his name on an engine, so Collett complied by telling said distinguished gentleman that his name could indeed appear on the latest class of locomotive to emerge from Swindon, along with a range of other distinguished Earls.
What Collett conveniently omitted to tell our self-satisfied (and no doubt delighted) Earl was that the "latest class to emerge from Swindon" was by no means a new locomotive being, in fact, an amalgamation of two Victorian classes, using components from scrapped "Duke" and "Bulldog" locomotives to produce an outside-framed 4-4-0 for use on the ex-Cambrian Railway network ~ a class of locomotive that, in spite of emerging from Swindon in the mid 1930's, was very obviously Victorian.
It is said that the Earl in question was so irritated by what transpired that he managed to get the names removed from the 'Duke-dog' class locomotives, to re-appear on run-of-the-mill Castles coming from Swindon under the standard building program. It seems that Collett was highly amused by the whole business.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I reckon Peter Poundtext, another D30, is a striking name. I wish I'd remembered it when I'd been choosing my own handle for this site. Or, how about from the Scottish Directors, Baillie MacWheeble. And who was Butler Henderson? Well done thou good and faithful servant.
It's not just the LNER. Who were E Tootal Broadhurst, and E C Trench? And from the GWR, Hyacinth, Marigold and Primrose don't quite convey the majesty of the mighty iron road.
I've heard it alleged that for some of the more obscure personal names, directors and such like, that they were people named after engines.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
[Utter Tangent]
We've overtaken the Beer and Ale thread (289 vs 281).
Just thought I should mention that in case any Hostly types consider that railway matters are of insufficient interest to attract postings ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[/Utter Tangent]
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
While on the subject of Members of the Board of Directors getting their names on engines, there is a slightly wicked story about C.B. Collett, with his known socialist sympathies. It seems that one of the GWR board (an Earl) was keen to have his name on an engine, so Collett complied by telling said distinguished gentleman that his name could indeed appear on the latest class of locomotive to emerge from Swindon, along with a range of other distinguished Earls.
What Collett conveniently omitted to tell our self-satisfied (and no doubt delighted) Earl was that the "latest class to emerge from Swindon" was by no means a new locomotive being, in fact, an amalgamation of two Victorian classes, using components from scrapped "Duke" and "Bulldog" locomotives to produce an outside-framed 4-4-0 for use on the ex-Cambrian Railway network ~ a class of locomotive that, in spite of emerging from Swindon in the mid 1930's, was very obviously Victorian.
It is said that the Earl in question was so irritated by what transpired that he managed to get the names removed from the 'Duke-dog' class locomotives, to re-appear on run-of-the-mill Castles coming from Swindon under the standard building program. It seems that Collett was highly amused by the whole business.
Is this one of the Earl's in question?
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Yes.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Butler Henderson is Robinson's D11 class for the GCR which were known as Directors. The first two batches had the names of various important fgure associated with the GCR. The final batch, built for the Scottish lines of the LNER with cut down boiler mountings lapsed into "Sir Walter Scottishness."
One of the little puzzles about J. G. Robinson is that he built some very fine 4-4-0s and 4-4-2s, but his 4-6-0s varied between medicore and poor. I suspect that with the 4-4-0s he hit on a successful formular whilst still at the Waterford, Limerick and Western Railway and stuck with it. His 4-4-2s had well laid out front ends and deep fireboxs, so nothing to inhibit free steaming there either.
His 4-6-0s all had something slightly wrong with them. In the case of the "Sir Sams" (B2) it was a shallow firebox that made them poor steamers. This meant that in terms of sustained output the 4-4-0 Directors were probably the stronger engines. For obvious reasons, the "Sir Sams" were favoured on the Woodhead Route because of their higher adhesion factor. The Black Pig (B9) four cylinder mixed traffic class had a decent boiler but convoluted exhaust steam passages making them "tight" in the front end. A tight front end in a steam locomotive means that exhaust steam does not flow rapidly enough from cylinders to exhaust. This is usually the result of poorly designed steam passages, and can be made worse by short travel valves of inadequate diameter. This "tightness" results in high coal consumption, and - at higher speeds - a loss of power.
Robinson's four cylinder 4-6-0s seem have had large enough ports, but they had short travel valves, and the steam passages were sometimes a bit convoluted. This compounded the problems created by the long narrow firebox and shallow ashpans of most of his 4-6-0s.
Far be it from me to suggest that the GWR's 4-6-0s were less than perfect, but they were sensitive to poor coal partly due to the design of the ashpans and mainly due to the design of their blastpipes. As the GWR had easy access to Welsh steam coal they rarely had to deal with the problems caused by poor coal before WW2. Hawksworth, the last CME of the GWR carried out some very successful experiments with blastpipes 1943-1947 which largely cured the problem.
Oddly, the Robinson 2-8-0s on the GWR (30xx/RODs) had a reputation for being able to burn anything and still get the job done. Mind you at 25mph coal sensitivity is less of an issue. GWR crews alternately loved and hated the Robinson 2-8-0s. The love side came from the fact they always got you home, and were not fussy about fuel. The hate came from the fact that riding one was like standing on top of a spin drier, and the fact the fireman never got to use the seat that JGR had thoughtfully provided!
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
[Utter Tangent]
We've overtaken the Beer and Ale thread (289 vs 281).
Just thought I should mention that in case any Hostly types consider that railway matters are of insufficient interest to attract postings ...
[/Utter Tangent]
Oh, we've noted the postings and interest! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
It's just the foreign language y'all speak.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Away from the GWR, until the 1920s a lot of CMEs seem to have problems designing a decent 4-6-0. The GCR ones weren't as effective as the Directors. Cardean looked impressive, but it is said was not really much more effective than the 4-4-0s that worked most of the trains. The Claughtons were very touchy and difficult to get the best out of and the original LYR 4-6-0s, rather than the later Hughes version I believe were pretty well useless. Likewise, Drummond's lumbering monstrosities.
I've heard it alleged that for most purposes even the small LNWR ones were less effective than the George Vs. I've got a theory that too many of them may have been a 4-4-0 with a 4-4-0 firebox and an elongated boiler. So the heating surface was too much tubes and not enough the back and top of the firebox. So you get a big boiler, more water and not enough direct contact between heat and water to generate steam fast enough.
There should be less of a problem with an Atlantic as there's more room underneath and to the side of the firebox and less temptation just to elongate a 4-4-0 boiler.
It's also possible, but this is heresy, that the Compounds might have owed their success not to compounding (they had old fashioned valve travel) but to the size of their fireboxes.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I can see where you are coming from with that. Robinson certainly tinkered with the design of the boilers on his 4-6-0s and they were only indifferent, not completely hopeless. They did, after all, last until 1947-50. My Grandad remembers them working local services in Northern Lincolnshire and South Yorkshire in the late 40s before the Thompson B1s arrived.
For the larger Robinson 4-6-0's weakness seems to have been valve gear. Gresley rebuilt a couple of them with Caprotti valves in the 1930s and their fuel consumption dropped 16-18%. The Imminghams, and the Fish Engines (two outside cylinders) seem to have been successful if heavy on coal. Least said soonest mended on the Sir Sams.
Oddly, the one railway other than the GWR that had 4-6-0s figured out was The Highland Railway. The Jones Goods (1895) had a larger than normal firebox and plenty of large diameter tubes. The "Rivers" and the "Clans" also seem to have avoided being "stretched 4-4-0s." However, there is a caveat. The Highland 4-6-0s were designed for lugging not running running. I doubt if any of them ever hit 60 mph other than going down hill. This means their front end design was never really tested to the full.
The Midland Compounds were also "luggers." According to O.S. Nock they did their best work with heavy trains timed at 50 to 55mph. The Leeds/Bradford - Carlisle, Derby - Bristol, and Derby - Manchester mainlines were happy hunting grounds for them; less so the southern portion MML (St Pancras to Sheffield) where their weakness at higher speeds would be exposed. A definite plus for them on the more steeply graded routes was the fact that they could be started as three cylinder simples then switched to compound expansion as speed picked up. High strating tractive effort is a definite plus on the S & C!!!
I have a strong suspicion that prior to about 1925 the fact that the Midland Compounds were not happy at high speed did not really matter. St Pancras - Leeds was timed to about four hours for 198 miles with four stops. This required the Compounds to run mile after mile at 55mph which was something they could do very efficiently.
What really exposed the Midland Compound's one weakness was the acceleration of services on the LNW and Midland Mainlines after 1925. At 60mph plus their tendancy not to clear exhaust steam fast enough would show itself. The GNR(I) produced a long travel valve version of the Midland Compound front end for their V class 4-4-0s for the Dublin-Belfast mail trains in 1932. They proved to be capable locomotives, regularly topping 75mph. The one area that did give trouble - the boiler - was one area were they did not follow Deeley's design. After WWII they received Belpair fireboxes which eliminated their tendancy to wolf coal at high speed with loads of 300 tons plus.
PD
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The problem with the Ten-Wheelers was that Churchward had done his homework before 1906 in getting a good proportion for the draughting, particularly in the blast-pipe and smokebox, and in getting appropriate piston-valve arrangements BUT none of the other designers would take the research seriously.
Even something as simple as making a proper smokebox (a cylinder mounted on a saddle rather than the wrapper smokebox that leaked and cracked) wasn't tried on most other lines for another twenty years.
Getting the boiler and valves right first, and then putting them on various wheel arrangements, made more sense than fiddling around with incompetent boilers and poor valves, however pretty the locomotives may have been.
The fact that Churchward didn't have enough superheat at first didn't matter much until after 1945, and then it was fairly easy to increase the superheat and double the chimneys, and the Swindon products were back at the top of the heap again - with designs that were already forty years old!
If Churchward had gone to Walschaerts motion in 1906, he'd have had the Black Five and the B1 sorted out before WW1.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Churchward was one of the few English engineers who could take De Glenn seriously, and had the brains to sort the wheat from the chaff. There was no secret to the formular - long travel piston valves, moderately high boiler pressures, unobstructed steam passages. The catch was that other engineers tended to be too pragmatic. For example, Ivatt, Worsdell, and Robinson all used piston valves on some of their locomotives, but retained short travel thus loosing much of the benefit of the technology. OTOH, Robinson cottoned on to the advantages of superheating faster than most.
Frankly, most British railways did not worry too much about coal consumption until the 1920s provided one bloke could shovel enough to feed the beast. The GCR Atlantics managed about 40lbs/mile on express workings - high by later standards, but not bad for a locomotive with no superheater and slide valves. Undoubtedly long travel piston valves and superheaters would have improved their fuel consumption, but for a railway that straddled the South Yorkshire coalfield that probably was not a high priority in 1904-6. Certainly the later superheated and compound varieties of Robinson Atlantic used less coal.
As I have said before the GWR had got themselves about 25 years ahead of the curve when it came to express passenger locomotives. However, some of their key concepts - such as the four cyclinder simple express locomotive - were of limited use on railways with tighter loading gauges than that of the GWR. Robinson would probably have been better off experimenting with three cylinder simple 4-6-0s than the four cylinder designs Gorton built just before and after the Great War.
PD
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
I think it was Prof. W.A. Tuplin that suggested that the principal problem to be overcome with a 4-6-0 (as opposed to a 4-4-0) was where to put the ashpan.
With a 4-4-0, the position of the firebox, and therefore the ashpan, is simple enough; you just drop it between the coupled axles, which makes giving the ashpan sufficient depth not to strangle the fire easy enough. On a 4-6-0 designers tended to put the firebox above the trailing coupled axle, which led to them adopting very shallow ashpans to clear the axle. Tuplin pointed out that the function of the ashpan was more than just the collection of ashes ~ it was also to control the air supply to the fire. In the early part of the century, only the GWR seem to have understood this and allowed a deep ashpan by wrapping it around the axle, and adopting 4 dampers rather than the more usual 2. This guaranteed a satisfactory supply of air to the fire under all normal running conditions on the GWR, ie, no more than 240 miles non-stop.
Breathing was also a contributory factor. The one Churchward boiler that never worked well was that installed on "The Great Bear", his only Pacific. From memory, the tube length was something like 23 feet. Unfortunately I cannot remember the bore, but the evidence was that the boiler did not breath freely and hence was never an entirely satisfactory steamer.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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