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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It should be noted that the U.S. President is not directly elected by the voters either.

I'm really iffy about keeping the electoral college. Seems useless, at best.
Whatever faults it may have, the electoral college system has the advantage of making it far less contestable who has been legally and officially elected to the office of president. Things got rather dodgy when the Supreme Court got involved in how votes were [re]counted in Florida, but no one contested the legality of the official results of the electoral college. Without the electoral college, things could have stayed officially very messy and left it unclear who had been elected. (And I say this despite the fact that I was very much in favor of the other guy (the "ex-future-president" guy) winning over the guy who did eventually win.)

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm really iffy about keeping the electoral college. Seems useless, at best.

The primary use of the electoral college has always been to weight the relative voices of the states. It is considerably less offensive than directly saying that an Alaskan's vote will count as three times that of a Californian's, for example.

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm really iffy about keeping the electoral college. Seems useless, at best.

The primary use of the electoral college has always been to weight the relative voices of the states. It is considerably less offensive than directly saying that an Alaskan's vote will count as three times that of a Californian's, for example.

--Tom Clune

Doing away with the electoral college would be a great way to further divide the country and might even cause armed rebellion under the theory of "bust a deal, face the wheel".

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I know that name-calling and such is standard American politics. But we don't shoot at each other over politics. At least, we didn't used to.

May God have mercy on our country.

I agree. May He have mercy.

Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

I'd put $5 on it being done by an Obama supporter trying to drum up some sympathy for the cause.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Nuparadigm
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
I know that name-calling and such is standard American politics. But we don't shoot at each other over politics. At least, we didn't used to.

May God have mercy on our country.

I agree. May He have mercy.


Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

I beg to differ:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr%E2%80%93Hamilton_duel

[ 13. October 2012, 13:33: Message edited by: Nuparadigm ]

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The last train out of any station will not be filled with nice people.

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Mere Nick
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In case anyone missed the VP debate, here is video that sums up what happened. Mmm hmm.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Whatever faults it may have, the electoral college system has the advantage of making it far less contestable who has been legally and officially elected to the office of president. Things got rather dodgy when the Supreme Court got involved in how votes were [re]counted in Florida, but no one contested the legality of the official results of the electoral college. Without the electoral college, things could have stayed officially very messy and left it unclear who had been elected. (And I say this despite the fact that I was very much in favor of the other guy (the "ex-future-president" guy) winning over the guy who did eventually win.)

Given that Al Gore had about half a million more votes nationally than George W. Bush, the only thing that would have been unclear in 2000 without the electoral college was who won the majority of votes in the state of Florida, something that, at best, would have been of interest only to regional political historians.

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The primary use of the electoral college has always been to weight the relative voices of the states.

Not true! The original purpose of the electoral college was to inflate the influence of the slaveholding states in the selection of the president. A president elected by popular vote would not count non-voting slaves. On the other hand weighting the states according to the size of their Congressional delegations counted each slave as three-fifths of a vote (though that vote was obviously cast by someone else).

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Doing away with the electoral college would be a great way to further divide the country and might even cause armed rebellion under the theory of "bust a deal, face the wheel".

Ah, but this time we'd know enough to let the rebels go...

--Tom Clune

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Doing away with the electoral college would be a great way to further divide the country and might even cause armed rebellion under the theory of "bust a deal, face the wheel".

Ah, but this time we'd know enough to let the rebels go...

--Tom Clune

In this case it would be those advocating doing away with the electoral college that would be the rebels. But if Massachusetts wants out, I figure that's your business. Who am I to tell someone in your state what's best for them and vice versa?

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Sioni Sais
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As I understand it each state decides how to allocate electoral college votes, so that if they give all of them to the candidate winning most votes or divide them proportionatately is for them to decide.

Is it reasonable for Congress to overrule the individual states in how they allocate electoral College votes? It looks a lot more than a technicality to me.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

Is it reasonable for Congress to overrule the individual states in how they allocate electoral College votes?

No.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In this case it would be those advocating doing away with the electoral college that would be the rebels.

Becuase proposing a constitutional amendment is rebellion?
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In this case it would be those advocating doing away with the electoral college that would be the rebels.

Becuase proposing a constitutional amendment is rebellion?
To the same extent assuming those that want to keep it are in rebellion, yes.

The electoral college isn't going anywhere, though. It would take 3/4 of the states to change it and that ain't happening.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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malik3000
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

I'd put $5 on it being done by an Obama supporter trying to drum up some sympathy for the cause.
Without passing any personal judgement on the personal motivation for making the above comment, on its surface at least it comes across as a pathetically cynical statement.

(And, btw, while anything is theoretically possible, it is the Obama haters who are the ones so in love with guns.)

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

I'd put $5 on it being done by an Obama supporter trying to drum up some sympathy for the cause.
Without passing any personal judgement on the personal motivation for making the above comment, on its surface at least it comes across as a pathetically cynical statement.
Normally, in the realm of politics, one is either cynical or gullible, istm.


quote:
(And, btw, while anything is theoretically possible, it is the Obama haters who are the ones so in love with guns.)

Yes, I'm sure it is anti-Obama rage that is driving the high number of murders in Chicago.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In this case it would be those advocating doing away with the electoral college that would be the rebels.

Becuase proposing a constitutional amendment is rebellion?
To the same extent assuming those that want to keep it are in rebellion, yes.
Arguments along the lines of "my statement is just as true as this other ludicrous position" seem rather weak - particularly when nobody's taken that other position.
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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[Doing away with the electoral college would be a great way to further divide the country and might even cause armed rebellion under the theory of "bust a deal, face the wheel". [/QB]

There's a movement to make the electoral college reflect the national popular vote.
It's done with state legislation and is about halfway there. Hardly a revolution.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In this case it would be those advocating doing away with the electoral college that would be the rebels.

Becuase proposing a constitutional amendment is rebellion?
To the same extent assuming those that want to keep it are in rebellion, yes.
Arguments along the lines of "my statement is just as true as this other ludicrous position" seem rather weak - particularly when nobody's taken that other position.
That's why I threw in the "to the same extent" part. I'm no more a rebel for wanting to keep part of the constitution than is someone suggesting an amendment.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[Doing away with the electoral college would be a great way to further divide the country and might even cause armed rebellion under the theory of "bust a deal, face the wheel".

There's a movement to make the electoral college reflect the national popular vote.
It's done with state legislation and is about halfway there. Hardly a revolution. [/QB]

It appears to be saying that if Candidate A gets a majority of the nation's vote then my state's electoral votes goes to Candidate A even if the majority of the people in my state voted for Candidate B. That would be a problem.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
]There's a movement to make the electoral college reflect the national popular vote.
It's done with state legislation and is about halfway there. Hardly a revolution.

It appears to be saying that if Candidate A gets a majority of the nation's vote then my state's electoral votes goes to Candidate A even if the majority of the people in my state voted for Candidate B. That would be a problem.
It's problematic from the standpoint of democracy, but then so is the electoral college itself. It's not problematic on Constitutional grounds. Remember that for the first couple presidential elections the presidential electors were chosen by the state legislatures, not by popular ballot.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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malik3000
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

Why would anyone think that this would help their cause?

I'd put $5 on it being done by an Obama supporter trying to drum up some sympathy for the cause.
Without passing any personal judgement on the personal motivation for making the above comment, on its surface at least it comes across as a pathetically cynical statement.
Normally, in the realm of politics, one is either cynical or gullible, istm.


Could anyone be more cynical than the corporate types for whom financial profit is the overiding consideration, regardless of the human cost, and could any be more gullible than the poor suckers who fail to see this?

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
(And, btw, while anything is theoretically possible, it is the Obama haters who are the ones so in love with guns.)

Yes, I'm sure it is anti-Obama rage that is driving the high number of murders in Chicago. [/QB]
[/QB]
I hope this isn't too subtle a concept, but gun violence of the type exhibited in Chicago is generally not politically motivated whereas politically-motivated gun violence is generally found on the extreme right, such as the militia and survivalist yahoos found prowling the wilds of Idaho, upper Michigan and the mountains of western North Carolina.

…Getting back to more substantive issues …

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It should be noted that the U.S. President is not directly elected by the voters either.

I'm really iffy about keeping the electoral college. Seems useless, at best.
Whatever faults it may have, the electoral college system has the advantage of making it far less contestable who has been legally and officially elected to the office of president. Things got rather dodgy when the Supreme Court got involved in how votes were [re]counted in Florida, but no one contested the legality of the official results of the electoral college. Without the electoral college, things could have stayed officially very messy and left it unclear who had been elected. (And I say this despite the fact that I was very much in favor of the other guy (the "ex-future-president" guy) winning over the guy who did eventually win.)


I think W Hyatt makes a good point about the electoral college system making voting results less contestable. I have been of the opinion, for quite a while, that rather than abolishing the electoral college, simply make it a requirement that the electoral college votes of all the states be apportioned by individual congressional district as is the case in Maine. It would still give a bit of an advantage to the smaller states but not nearly as much. (*And see note below) And it would end the unfortunate system where the election is an actual contest in just a few "swing states".

*Since the number of electoral votes per state is determined by its number of the states members in the US House of Representatives plus its federal senators (always 2 of course), If one wanted to the give even more equity between less-populated states and more populated states, the number of electoral votes could be based solely on the number of the states members of the US House of Representatives

[ 13. October 2012, 20:13: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Josephine

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A friend recently pointed me to an essay by a reluctant Romney supporter. The man, a conservative Christian, talked first about why he thinks it's inappropriate for Christians to beat each other up over their political choices. “Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

Then he explained that he picked out the five issues he considered most important, and rated Obama and Romney on each of those issues. His rating scale was 1 - he and the candidate shared the same view; 2 - the candidate was open to his view; 3 - the candidate was indifferent to his view; 4 - the candidate was openly hostile to his view.

If he can find a candidate that is all 1's, of course, that's what he'd want. But he acknowledged that it's not a perfect world, so all 2's would be okay. 4's wouldn't.

I kinda like that approach.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Whatever faults it may have, the I think W Hyatt makes a good point about the electoral college system making voting results less contestable. I have been of the opinion, for quite a while, that rather than abolishing the electoral college, simply make it a requirement that the electoral college votes of all the states be apportioned by individual congressional district as is the case in Maine. It would still give a bit of an advantage to the smaller states but not nearly as much. (*And see note below) And it would end the unfortunate system where the election is an actual contest in just a few "swing states".

*Since the number of electoral votes per state is determined by its number of the states members in the US House of Representatives plus its federal senators (always 2 of course), If one wanted to the give even more equity between less-populated states and more populated states, the number of electoral votes could be based solely on the number of the states members of the US House of Representatives [/QB]

You're gettting into constitutional ammendmendments that take away states rights by federal mandate. These are always controversial.

The clever thing about the National Popular Vote schems is that it is conjoined actions of states exercising their rights to define their electoral college vote.
If it happens or not depends on enough states ey feeling that they lose more in the current scheme than they would gain. Watching all the electoral attention go to 8 to 12 battleground states tends to encourage the other states to see the advantage of making it a national vote.

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The Bede's American Successor

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Living where I do, I have occasion to pay attention to Canadian electoral practices. One thing that is seen from my perspective is that, while choosing the member of Parliament from your riding is always important, even residents of cities like Winnepeg, Regina, Calgary, and Edmonton have little affect on who becomes prime minister. Basically, it is a portion of Ontario and Quebec that determines who the prime minister will be, because that is the largest concentration of population is in Canada.

Don't think for a minute that Obama or Romney would campaign much in Colorado, Iowa, or Wisconsin if it wasn't for the Electoral College. By skewing the power slightly to the states with smaller population, we elect a President of the United States.

Otherwise, we would like the President of New York-Boston-Philadelphia, Florida, Dallas-Houzton-Austin, greater Chicago, and Los Angeles-San Francisco. Everyone else would understand how it feels to live in Washington State, which is solidly Obama this time.

Making the candidates get outside the major population centers is a good thing, no matter the reason or reasons why we got the Electoral College.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Anyuta
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I always wonder about the "states rights" issue...just how much does it really matter to most folks. I mean, we are such a mobile society, that it just seems strange to me to have states doing things differently. To me, it really doesn't matter whether an issue is decided at the state or federal level. I don't think whatever state I happen to live in at any given time is going to automatically better represent my views. I just don't really see myself as a Virginian in particular. I would say that if anything, I see myself more as a resident of my particular town, where there is some chance that I know my representatives personally, and of course,, as a US citizen, but Virginiavn is purely a geographical description, in my mind.

I know that for some States Rights is a rallying cry, but even with some such people of my acquaintance, it seems that they really don't see themselves in terms of a particular state, but rather that they simply want few things decided at the federal level, as a matter of principle...except of course when it's a matter of enforcing a view they support! They are perfectly happy to set States Rights aside when some other State allows something they don't think should be allowed.

But, as far as I can tell, even most conservatives don't really see themselves mort in terms of the state in which they reside. Well...except for Texans.

But then, I live in a very cosmopolitan place, and most folks I know have lived in multiple States, so perhaps my experience is skewed.

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Pigwidgeon

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I feel just the opposite (but welcome back, Bede!!!).

I live in Arizona. We have so few electoral votes (and they're just about guaranteed to be Republican) that the candidates rarely bother to come here. The smaller states do not have an advantage, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a left-wing Democrat in a bright red state. Basically, my vote for president doesn't count. I don't like voting for President as an Arizonan; I would like to vote as an American. If I'm voting for Governor, or even Senator/Congress, then I vote as an Arizonan.

(I remember learning about the Electoral College when I was about 8 or 9 and was appalled that it was possible for a candidate with fewer votes to win. I asked my Mom how could that be. She said it was almost unheard of, but possible. Little did I dream that I would live through such an election.)

ETA - Obviously a response to Bede, not Anyuta.

[ 13. October 2012, 21:43: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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The Bede's American Successor

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No system is perfect.

This year Obama uses Washington State like an ATM machine, because of the number of people with money in the Seattle area. However, he doesn't hold big campaign events here.

However, it was different in 2008--at least until he was certain of winning the state.

If we had direct election, we would always have to go to San Francisco or Los Angeles to be treated like a cash machine. (That may be a good thing, though. [Smile] )

Remember that in 2000 the vote totals weren't exactly clear and convincing--as 1960. It could be argued that 2000 was a perverse result from a flawed voting environment in Florida and other states. In other words, we can't be sure who had the absolute majority with scientific certainty.

It may be better to place the resources into getting better accuracy on the vote totals.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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I see my tablet found a way to post twice for my. Sorry.

Make note to self: don't use the back arrow.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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I see my tablet found a way to post twice for me. Sorry.

The flood protection did not prevent it.

Make note to self: don't use the back arrow. It put me back on the page where it was posting, and it did it again.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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I've reported the ability of my tablet to really mess with and overcome flood protection. I know better thsn to press back, even when the instructions say to.

[Smile]

[tidied up a bit, Bede - and good to see you posting again. B62]

[ 14. October 2012, 07:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[It appears to be saying that if Candidate A gets a majority of the nation's vote then my state's electoral votes goes to Candidate A even if the majority of the people in my state voted for Candidate B. That would be a problem. [/QB]

This happens all the time. I've lived in very liberal congressional districts whose electoral vote vote can be swamped by the larger state vote totals.

It's legal, and it mitigates the current problems that the vote of the majority can be thwarted by the partitioning of the electorate into states.

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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Living where I do, I have occasion to pay attention to Canadian electoral practices. One thing that is seen from my perspective is that, while choosing the member of Parliament from your riding is always important, even residents of cities like Winnepeg, Regina, Calgary, and Edmonton have little affect on who becomes prime minister. Basically, it is a portion of Ontario and Quebec that determines who the prime minister will be, because that is the largest concentration of population is in Canada.

Don't think for a minute that Obama or Romney would campaign much in Colorado, Iowa, or Wisconsin if it wasn't for the Electoral College. By skewing the power slightly to the states with smaller population, we elect a President of the United States.

Otherwise, we would like the President of New York-Boston-Philadelphia, Florida, Dallas-Houzton-Austin, greater Chicago, and Los Angeles-San Francisco. Everyone else would understand how it feels to live in Washington State, which is solidly Obama this time.

Making the candidates get outside the major population centers is a good thing, no matter the reason or reasons why we got the Electoral College.

There's always the theory that a small elite should pick the government rather than the majority that happen to live in the major population centers. However that's an anti-democratic view.

As someone who lived in New York and Boston and now lives in Washington State, I don't see the election improved by assigning the decision to a limited subset of the states, most of which hold views that are very different than my own. It's one thing to concede to the vote of the majority, it's another to "improve" the vote by limiting it to some arbitrary subsset.

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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The decision is not limited to the battleground states. That is where your analogy fails.

Washington State voters still vote, and our electors still cast their ballot. Unlike Colorado, though, are results are pretty well accepted. If we were to become up for grabs, Obama would be here post haste.

You don't waste bait for fish you have in the boat.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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*our* results

I may stop posting with a tablet.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
The decision is not limited to the battleground states. That is where your analogy fails.

Washington State voters still vote, and our electors still cast their ballot. Unlike Colorado, though, are results are pretty well accepted. If we were to become up for grabs, Obama would be here post haste.

You don't waste bait for fish you have in the boat.

The decision is not limited to the battleground states in theory, but in practice it is because the state bucketing of electors makes any vote less than a majority worthless.
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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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This is the only system that forces the campaign into all regions of the country. Otherwise, you target specific demographics in easy-to-reach population centers.

Just like a Canadian election.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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Remember that most states are not red or blue; they are purple.

Washington State is leaning Obama for president, but could tilt Republican for governor.

Wisconsin is leaning Obama, in spite of Scott Walker and Paul Ryan.

Massachusetts has Obama 30 points ahead, but Warren is having to fight for Kennedy's old Senate seat.

The current system, with its flaws, is a system with a structure that reaches from the county (or city) to the national level. The national parties are reminded regularly not to go too far afield, so not to make it impossible for Montana to have a Democrat as governor as well as Massachusetts.

Split the connection to the states and you will no longer have truly national parties. The parties that elect the president won't care about having a party that plays in the smaller states, as they don't have the major population centers.

You find this disconnect in Canada now. A provincial Liberal in Quebec is someone not in the NDP or PQ. A provincial Liberal in BC is not Green, Conservative, or NDP (or Social Credit [Smile] ). There have been some very successful province-only partied besides the PQ/BQ. This is good for provincial affairs, but not good for affecting a national policy, per se. (Tommy Douglas was good at translating a provincial issue into a national matter, but is not typical.)

This connection we have in the US works both ways. There are certain civil rights issues that are pushed down to all the states because we have national parties. It may not happen fast enough for some, but at least it increases the dialog.

There is more at stake than how we elect a President here.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Remember that most states are not red or blue; they are purple.

Washington State is leaning Obama for president, but could tilt Republican for governor.

Wisconsin is leaning Obama, in spite of Scott Walker and Paul Ryan.

Massachusetts has Obama 30 points ahead, but Warren is having to fight for Kennedy's old Senate seat.

The current system, with its flaws, is a system with a structure that reaches from the county (or city) to the national level. The national parties are reminded regularly not to go too far afield, so not to make it impossible for Montana to have a Democrat as governor as well as Massachusetts.

Split the connection to the states and you will no longer have truly national parties. The parties that elect the president won't care about having a party that plays in the smaller states, as they don't have the major population centers.

You find this disconnect in Canada now. A provincial Liberal in Quebec is someone not in the NDP or PQ. A provincial Liberal in BC is not Green, Conservative, or NDP (or Social Credit [Smile] ). There have been some very successful province-only partied besides the PQ/BQ. This is good for provincial affairs, but not good for affecting a national policy, per se. (Tommy Douglas was good at translating a provincial issue into a national matter, but is not typical.)

This connection we have in the US works both ways. There are certain civil rights issues that are pushed down to all the states because we have national parties. It may not happen fast enough for some, but at least it increases the dialog.

There is more at stake than how we elect a President here.

A fellow radical from Oklahoma when I was living in Boston commented that even the most left Oklahoma politician was to the right of the most conservative Republican Massachusetts politician. In the past Democrat in Boston and Georgia did not mean the same thing. Republican in Rhode Island and Texas were completely different. The only thing stitching these coalitions together was the Congress "winner take all" two party system.
That's broken up. The Republicans have "purified" their party eliminating the Northeast "RINO" moderates. The Democrats have moved right to capture the unoccupied center. We may yet have a splinter into three or more parties.

I don't believe that a national popular vote will mean that all will be based on the big cities. Television outreach means that geographically diverse coalitions can win. This means that someone in Washington State or Montana can have a vote that matters as. much as everyone in New York City

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
]There's a movement to make the electoral college reflect the national popular vote.
It's done with state legislation and is about halfway there. Hardly a revolution.

It appears to be saying that if Candidate A gets a majority of the nation's vote then my state's electoral votes goes to Candidate A even if the majority of the people in my state voted for Candidate B. That would be a problem.
It's problematic from the standpoint of democracy, but then so is the electoral college itself. It's not problematic on Constitutional grounds. Remember that for the first couple presidential elections the presidential electors were chosen by the state legislatures, not by popular ballot.
And Scalia wrote, in Bush v. Gore that there is no individual right to vote for the president--state legislatures can come up with any system they like to decide how electoral votes will be cast.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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Bede, my friend, welcome back, but please leave Canada out of this. [Smile]

Federal/Provincial infighting is a highly developed art in Canada. For various reasons, it almost has to happen, given the way the Canadian Constitution works in practice.

Canadian electoral campaigns are also much, much shorter, 40 days or so from the writ being dropped to Election Day. Getting the leader around enough to make a difference is a practical problem in a country with five and a half time zones.

We do have a constitutionally-entrenched right to vote and have had a nationally uniform election law since the 1920's.

Regionalism is Canada's vice. Separate provincial and federal parties is how we defuse that vice.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Bede, my friend, welcome back, but please leave Canada out of this. [Smile]

Federal/Provincial infighting is a highly developed art in Canada. For various reasons, it almost has to happen, given the way the Canadian Constitution works in practice.

You have a much smaller population and only 10 provinces with 3 territories. Your third largest city, Vancouver, has about the same number of people as live in Seattle.


The US can't afford a system that doesn't drive towards a nationwide focus. Our problems now are more based on the Republicans becoming a regional party. If this doesn't change, we'll become like the EU.

If we make Canada nervous now, just wait until that happens. [Help]

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754

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ISTM that we've had this conversation about the Electoral College before. Despite all the arguments about the fairness the College was established to give smaller states some bargaining rights for the power/money that goes with the election. The winner takes all diminishes the advantage of large states and puts them on the par with small states which, usually, have a high proportion of one party. Money given to the large states would be wasted because they come out rather evenly on the votes.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Could anyone be more cynical than the corporate types for whom financial profit is the overiding consideration, regardless of the human cost, and could any be more gullible than the poor suckers who fail to see this?

Evidently, ymv, but "corporate types" have to earn my business, can't put me in jail, can't send me or my children off to war, can't have me killed, can't exempt themselves from laws they burden me with, don't have to give their permission to be sued, etc. I find the gullible folks to be those who trust politicians more than corporate types.

quote:
politically-motivated gun violence is generally found on the extreme right, such as the militia and survivalist yahoos found prowling the wilds of Idaho, upper Michigan and the mountains of western North Carolina.
Please provide me a summary of politically motivated gun violence, including body count, that has occurred in WNC during the past, say, thirty years?

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:

The US can't afford a system that doesn't drive towards a nationwide focus. Our problems now are more based on the Republicans becoming a regional party.

Some may have thought that about the Democrat party after the 1980 and 1984 elections, too. Parties change in order to get the 50.0001% they need in order to gain power to have their turn at proving to be a big disappointment.

There are 29 Republican governors and 20 Democrat governors. Republicans control more state houses than do Democrats.

I haven't bothered looking at other states, but in NC the fastest growing political affiliation is "unafilliated".

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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So another CEO says he's going to fire everyone if Obama wins. Is this legal?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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May not be legal but it's despicable.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So another CEO says he's going to fire everyone if Obama wins. Is this legal?

It is a legitimate concern for someone to have that their business may get hurt if Obama wins again. There may be companies out their that fear what would happen to them if Obama loses. But I don't see any of this as a problem but a symptom.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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So fear-mongering doesn't bother you? Typical.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So another CEO says he's going to fire everyone if Obama wins. Is this legal?

It is a legitimate concern for someone to have that their business may get hurt if Obama wins again. There may be companies out their that fear what would happen to them if Obama loses. But I don't see any of this as a problem but a symptom.
Sure, but is this any more or less legitimate than a priest or minister threatening eternal damnation to those who vote the wrong way?

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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