|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
deano
Stop playing around with lilBuddha's Shipname. Whether this rules issue has cropped up before for you, I'm not sure, but it's a discourtesy that can get you into hot water with H & A.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
Sorry. Let me rephrase my post...
Oh but lilBuddha I thought your first response would be to...
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Here you go...
“One reason why the Nazis succeeded in supplanting the liberal middle-class parties was the liberals’ perceived failure to deal with the twin crises Germany faced in the late 1920s. One crisis was many Germans’ sense of national humiliation by the Treaty of Versailles”
Excerpt From: Paxton, Robert O. “The Anatomy of Fascism.” Random House, 2005-01-02T00:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Maybe you're having a think about that one.
[ 25. February 2016, 21:53: Message edited by: deano ]
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
“One reason
One. I accented others in your very own quotes.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Jesus H. Christ, when did this thread become a willy-waving contest about the Nazis? FFS.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Jesus H. Christ, when did this thread become a willy-waving contest about the Nazis? FFS.
Probably because of Pomona's comment that she thought that Trump was a fascist. Deano has at least referred to Paxton's great work on the subject of fascism. A quick glance at that shows that Trump meets none of Paxton's criteria for fascism. A mis-applied label.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Jesus H. Christ, when did this thread become a willy-waving contest about the Nazis? FFS.
Probably because of Pomona's comment that she thought that Trump was a fascist. Deano has at least referred to Paxton's great work on the subject of fascism. A quick glance at that shows that Trump meets none of Paxton's criteria for fascism. A mis-applied label.
Thank you.
There are parallels that worry me though, some of which I have highlighted.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I just don't reckon Trump has the brains to make this sort of decision, to make the best decision on this for America and its allies for the next sixty or so years. I don't reckon he's the bloke for this job.
America's had some ordinary presidents over the years and I'm pretty sure people said the same about Ronald Reagan thirty-five years ago. He wasn't the sharpest tool in the box either but he played to the gallery as an ordinary guy and not only did he get elected, but he got re-elected.
Trump is playing to an updated and I think more fearful gallery. So long as he can keep fears and imagined injustices bubbling he's in with a very good chance.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
I don't think Trump is a fascist. I don't think he's much of anything, really. I still feel that this is all a game to him.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[QUOTE]Trump is playing to an updated and I think more fearful gallery. So long as he can keep fears and imagined injustices bubbling he's in with a very good chance.
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice. Only you, viewing it through your subjective lenses, percieve it as imagined.
If, as I expect, Clinton gets in, then she will have to address the issue of why so many people voted for Trump. If she doesn't, then it will merely reinforce the "image" that the moderate, liberal political system is deadlocked and can't fix their problem.
And someone else will come along in the same mould as Trump, or worse, and promis to fix the injustices that you feel are imagined and they feel are real.
Can someone answer me this? Why are people voting for Trump? Not is a hand-waving, oh they are falling for his lies, way, but with actual, real facts. Because if the moderate, centre-left of American politics can't answer that, then he, or someone similar, will be your President sooner rather than later.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
So the pope has described Trumps views on immigration as unchristian - do we think this will help or hinder him ?
It couldn't lower my opinion of Trump any further (it's already lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut), but it did raise my opinion of the Pope another few points.
How it will affect Republican voters, I have no idea. My mind doesn't work like theirs.
Republican voters have already been influenced against Pope Francis for some time now. Fox news criticisms him every chance they get, and talk radio absolutely despises him.
That's a very high recommendation.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I would think that Trump appeals to those who see an elite ruling over them, an elite of professional politicians and shysters, or whatever you call that, and they're angry about it, and think that Trump will solve their problems.
Curiously enough, it's possible that the same impetus lies behind the appeal of Sanders and Corbyn, i.e. a revulsion against normal politics and wheeler-dealing.
Whether or not any of these would actually provide solutions, I don't know.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
But I would say that Trump is a part (in admittedly a less-overtly political way hitherto) of that elite (or set of elites); Sanders and Corbyn are not.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Missed the edit. Another factor is probably the financial crash, and ensuing austerity, which again left many people angry at the bankers and the financial sector, which they see as unpunished for their gambling.
The little people are angry, and see the rich getting away with murder, but ironically, in the US then turn to a very rich man, Trump! But of course, he's not a politician, so seems relatively untarnished.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But I would say that Trump is a part (in admittedly a less-overtly political way hitherto) of that elite (or set of elites); Sanders and Corbyn are not.
Yes, but both the Tories and the Republicans seem to have had the knack, historically, of saying to the common man, yes, I sympathize with your grievances, and I have the solution. Generally, the solution is to increase the wealth of the rich, but that is covered up in various ways.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
fun fact: apparently at a certain point in last night's Republican debate the person providing the closed captioning just gave up and simply wrote "unintelligible yelling".
S/he deserves a raise.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
I'm amazed by the amount of studied wide-eyed naïveté attempted by the various variations of "what is this 'Southern Strategy' of which you speak?" The Republican party has spent the past half-century catering to and cultivating white resentment that America is no longer the kind of Herrenvolk republic that it used to be. Trump isn't really breaking any new ground in this regard. He does have one innovation, though. Lee Atwater explains the late twentieth century understanding of the Southern Strategy:
quote:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."
Trump's innovation is that he understands there's a certain part of the Republican electorate that doesn't want its racism in "abstract" form. In other words, he's willing to come right out and plainly say what every other Republican candidate is only hinting at with euphemisms and dogwhistles. If you were going to support a candidate with those positions, why wouldn't you prefer one willing to state them directly rather than just hint around about them?
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
And in other Trump-related news:
quote:
Here’s a part of the political calendar that nobody in the Republican Party seems to have noticed: This spring, just as the GOP nomination battle enters its final phase, frontrunner Donald Trump could be forced to take time out for some unwanted personal business: He’s due to take the witness stand in a federal courtroom in San Diego, where he is being accused of running a financial fraud.
In court filings last Friday, lawyers for both sides in a long-running civil lawsuit over the now defunct Trump University named Trump on their witness lists. That makes it all but certain that the reality-show star and international businessman will be forced to be grilled under oath over allegations in the lawsuit that he engaged in deceptive trade practices and scammed thousands of students who enrolled in his “university” courses in response to promises he would make them rich in the real estate market.
Although the case has been winding its way through the courts for the past five years — and Trump has denied all wrongdoing — the final pretrial conference is now slated for May 6, according to the latest pleadings in the case. No trial date has been set, but the judge has indicated his interest in moving the case forward, the pleadings show.
This could make for interesting campaigning.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I just don't reckon Trump has the brains to make this sort of decision, to make the best decision on this for America and its allies for the next sixty or so years. I don't reckon he's the bloke for this job.
America's had some ordinary presidents over the years and I'm pretty sure people said the same about Ronald Reagan thirty-five years ago. He wasn't the sharpest tool in the box either but he played to the gallery as an ordinary guy and not only did he get elected, but he got re-elected.
Trump is playing to an updated and I think more fearful gallery. So long as he can keep fears and imagined injustices bubbling he's in with a very good chance.
Yeah I've been thinking about Reagan, and I remember as a teenager gleefully and ignorantly laughing at the idea that the Americans could elect an actor. What I didn't know was that Reagan had spent decades as a politician and an activist and was nobody's fool. He was just a bit dithery and a bit folksy, and American folksy does not play well in the rest of the Anglosphere. I think he had some form of dementia in his retirement, and that softens my opinion of him as my father experienced a similar decline.
It may well be that people like me, intensely interested in US Politics but lazy and foreign are also wrong-footed about Trump. I don't reckon I am. I think he's an utter turd. I reckon he cares about other people about as much as he cares for the snot on his handkerchief.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
But what if the feeling is based on a flawed analysis? What if the analysis is defective because it is based on biased reporting rather than objective fact? What if sending them all back where they came from and building a wall to keep them there doesn't work, because they were not the problem? That, in fact, a society bled of many useful workers and services, is now even less satisfying than before?
I'm not saying you can't distill the turbulent longings of a people into a simple slogan - 'Freedom!' is quite a good one - but even that has to be unpacked into practicalities, compromises, acceptances and all manner of mundane detail. What is not so good are those rallying cries which are either contentless (and can there act as projections) or only too worrying specific ('Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer')*
As for racial and cultural homogeneity as a desirable: I come from Ireland, where we have plenty and a lot of good it's done us.
*just in case anyone is unfamiliar 'one people, one empire, one leader'.
[ 26. February 2016, 15:00: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
It may well be that people like me, intensely interested in US Politics but lazy and foreign are also wrong-footed about Trump. I don't reckon I am. I think he's an utter turd. I reckon he cares about other people about as much as he cares for the snot on his handkerchief.
Sounds to me like you're on the right foot!
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Probably because of Pomona's comment that she thought that Trump was a fascist. Deano has at least referred to Paxton's great work on the subject of fascism. A quick glance at that shows that Trump meets none of Paxton's criteria for fascism. A mis-applied label.
That's a good point. Fascist = thoroughly bad egg.
Thoroughly bad egg ≠ Fascist.
There are plenty of other unattractive categories ready and waiting for a thorough bad egg to fall into.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... It may well be that people like me, intensely interested in US Politics but lazy and foreign are also wrong-footed about Trump. I don't reckon I am. I think he's an utter turd. I reckon he cares about other people about as much as he cares for the snot on his handkerchief.
That's certainly the impression he gives. Indeed, I suspect there are plenty of people in Aberdeen who think that is being unfair both to snot and to faeces.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
But what if the feeling is based on a flawed analysis?
Then unless you do something to really PROVE beyond all doubt that the analysis is flawed, you get people like Trump. It may not even work then.
Sorry, but it is irrelevant that the analysis is flawed. It may be but the perception is real, and that is all it takes.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Some, like the majority of middle-class and working claess who voted for fascist organisations in between-the-wars Europe are frightened that they will become poor, frustrated that none of the mainstream parties can help them, and relieved that someone is saying they understand their fears and is offering a solution.
And those numbers will probably dwarf the racist supporters.
Why are these two alternatives? Can't people become racists primarily because they are frightened and frustrated?
This seems like the deserving vs undeserving poor dichotomy so beloved of Victorians and Conservatives.
Now we have deserving and undeserving racists - people whose buying of a racist ideology can be excused because they were frightened and those who are more deliberately racist without an excuse.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice. Only you, viewing it through your subjective lenses, percieve it as imagined.
If, as I expect, Clinton gets in, then she will have to address the issue of why so many people voted for Trump. If she doesn't, then it will merely reinforce the "image" that the moderate, liberal political system is deadlocked and can't fix their problem.
In this case the "problem" facing Trump voters is that their co-workers are Mexicans*, their boss is a woman, and the President is a Negro! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) The moderate, liberal political system can't fix this "problem" because it doesn't recognize it as a problem has neither the desire nor the power to make it 1950 again when all "those people" knew their place. Quite frankly there's no "fix" for this "injustice" that doesn't require even greater injustice to an even larger number of people than those making the complaint.
--------------------
*To certain Americans it doesn't matter if you were born in Cuba or El Salvador or Brooklyn; to them all Hispanics are "Mexicans".
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
A somewhat snarky analysis of the situation I described:
quote:
Trump's up there on the stage telling them he'll make America great again, make them all winners, get rid of the foreigners, and they go nuts for it... because what he's really telling them is that he's going to somehow make them young again. I mean it. He is telling them he can take them back to the world they remember. And yeah, that world never really existed, but that's not the point. It's not political for them - it's personal. They're not mad about immigration policy, or tax policy, or the fact that we're normalizing relations with the Iranians. They're mad because they're getting old. Aren't we all? So this guy makes a crazy promise to bring them through some worm-hole into a fantasy-world 1950's America, and they can't say no.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Former candidate Chris Christie has endorsed Trump. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
I never respected him anyway. And now I never will.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
They may truly feel there exists an injustice, but this does not make the injustice real.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
If, as I expect, Clinton gets in, then she will have to address the issue of why so many people voted for Trump. If she doesn't, then it will merely reinforce the "image" that the moderate, liberal political system is deadlocked and can't fix their problem.
Moderate liberal system? Is there a different United States then the one I am familiar with? The one I know of is right of centre, has had more recent political bullshit perpetrated by the right than the "left" and is still recovering from the global meltdown instigated by those who benefit far more from conservative policies than liberal.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Can someone answer me this? Why are people voting for Trump? Not is a hand-waving, oh they are falling for his lies, way, but with actual, real facts.
If Trump supporters were interested in facts and had the patience to listen to real solutions, they would not have elected the politicians who frustrate them in the first place and certainly would not be following behind a day-glow, narcissistic, juvenile gas-bag.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
They may truly feel there exists an injustice, but this does not make the injustice real.
No. But their votes are very, very real!
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Can someone answer me this? Why are people voting for Trump? Not is a hand-waving, oh they are falling for his lies, way, but with actual, real facts.
If Trump supporters were interested in facts and had the patience to listen to real solutions, they would not have elected the politicians who frustrate them in the first place and certainly would not be following behind a day-glow, narcissistic, juvenile gas-bag. [/QB]
Dear God, you are going to let him win!
I DO NOT WANT TRUMP TO GET IN!
I DON'T WANT HIM NEAR THE TICKET!
Okay, for the n'th time, I am a CENTRE-right Conservative. I have more in common with a Clinton'esque political view.
On here that is the equivalent of someone throwing bricks on Krystalnacht, but the Western world is moving right-ward at a rate of knots.
If any of you on here are involved in politics in the USA, then get involved with returning Clinton, and FORCE her to admit that Trump has a case, and that she will actually DO something to fix it.
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
Force Clinton to make stupid people wise? Oh, would that she could. But even Jesus had problems with that, you know.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
|
Posted
Why would voters elect Clinton if they think Trump has a case? Surely if you think Trump has a case, you should elect Trump!
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Why would voters elect Clinton if they think Trump has a case? Surely if you think Trump has a case, you should elect Trump!
I am ENGLISH!
you aren't reading my stuff are you?
You're like the dog in that old Far Side cartoon why the guy is telling his dog, Rex, off. Rex hears...
"Rex! Blah, blah, blah, Rex, blah, blah, Rex!"
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
If any of you on here are involved in politics in the USA, then get involved with returning Clinton, and FORCE her to admit that Trump has a case, and that she will actually DO something to fix it.
Again, what parts of Trump's platform do you think Hillary Clinton should adopt?
That all Muslims are terrorists who should be barred from the country and their mosques shut down?
That all "Mexicans"* are rapists and drug lords who should be deported immediately, even if they were born in the U.S.?
That the foreign policy engineered by people like Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has been nothing but a serious of capitulations to foreign despots? (That one may be tricky for Clinton to massage into a pro-Clinton message.)
That Barack Obama is really a Kenyan Muslim Communist traitor whose presidency is illegitimate? (Ibid.)
I'm not sure why it's Hillary Clinton's job to adopt the Republican platform generally or Trump's position specifically. Your suggestion seems to be "cater to the demands of Republican conspiracy-mongers, or someone will be elected who will cater to the demands of Republican conspiracy-mongers". The idea that someone other than Republican conspiracy-mongers should be served by elected officials seems not to be contemplated.
Interestingly, the other Republican candidates seem to have failed their due diligence by not bothering to do any opposition research on Donald Trump until very recently. Given the amount of money sloshing around the American political system, this seems like malpractice.
--------------------
*See previous footnote.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
But what if the feeling is based on a flawed analysis?
Then unless you do something to really PROVE beyond all doubt that the analysis is flawed, you get people like Trump. It may not even work then.
Sorry, but it is irrelevant that the analysis is flawed. It may be but the perception is real, and that is all it takes.
All it takes to elect the demagogue, yes. But my question was, what happens then? Because no solution, however final, works if it is not in fact the answer to the problem. So tell me how Trump's second term works?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice.
But what if the feeling is based on a flawed analysis?
Then unless you do something to really PROVE beyond all doubt that the analysis is flawed, you get people like Trump. It may not even work then.
Sorry, but it is irrelevant that the analysis is flawed. It may be but the perception is real, and that is all it takes.
All it takes to elect the demagogue, yes. But my question was, what happens then? Because no solution, however final, works if it is not in fact the answer to the problem. So tell me how Trump's second term works?
Well, his voters watch Brad Paisley and Gretchen Wilson videos and what kind of second term do you think he will allow you, if any?
Or, how much damage do you think he can do in one term?
Get real! He only needs to get into the Oval Office once and it will be game over!
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
Deano, I am entirely real thank you.
I think we are agreed that Mr Trump is a Bad Thing (though I think my Socratic attempt to clarify the nature of his badness is currently not working).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Trumps case is that YOUR problems are not HIS and the elite's, they're Mexico and Islam.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
A somewhat snarky analysis of the situation I described:
quote:
Trump's up there on the stage telling them he'll make America great again, make them all winners, get rid of the foreigners, and they go nuts for it... because what he's really telling them is that he's going to somehow make them young again. I mean it. He is telling them he can take them back to the world they remember. And yeah, that world never really existed, but that's not the point. It's not political for them - it's personal. They're not mad about immigration policy, or tax policy, or the fact that we're normalizing relations with the Iranians. They're mad because they're getting old. Aren't we all? So this guy makes a crazy promise to bring them through some worm-hole into a fantasy-world 1950's America, and they can't say no.
How does this explain the particularly horrifying phenomenon of young people supporting Trump? There seem to be a fair few of them judging by the reports I've seen of his rallies.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Trumps case is that YOUR problems are not HIS and the elite's, they're Mexico and Islam.
It's interesting to note where Trump breaks with the Republican elites. His positions on immigration or foreign policy (to the extent that he's been willing to describe them) aren't that different than those espoused by Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio (to the extent that they've espoused anything). The big difference is Donald Trump's pledge to preserve Social Security rather than cutting it. He seems to have shrewdly noticed that cutting Social Security is very popular with the Republican elite and donor class, but very unpopular with actual Republican voters.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
How does this explain the particularly horrifying phenomenon of young people supporting Trump? There seem to be a fair few of them judging by the reports I've seen of his rallies.
A fair number, but interestingly as a group they don't particularly like Trump. In the last two primary/caucus states "Under 30" is the only age demographic to prefer someone other than Trump. In South Carolina the under 30s (who made up 10% of the Republican primary electorate) narrowly preferred Ted Cruz and in Nevada (where they were 7% of the Republican primary electorate) they emphatically preferred Marco Rubio.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Its amazing how many young people are attracted to celebrity.
Obama, in his own way, is also a celebrity. Not sure Clinton or any of the other characters in this real life clown show are.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice. Only you, viewing it through your subjective lenses, percieve it as imagined.
This is confusing "injustice" with other words.
Justice is not entirely objective, I will grant you, but the idea that people can treat anything and everything as an "injustice" and get away with it is absurd.
Recently in Australia there was some social media noise about a woman who bought milk in one chain of supermarkets, then took it back to an entirely different competitor chain for a swap/refund and then went online to complain when the competitor said no, she would have to go to the original store. "Why?" she said, "it's all just milk, it's all the same" (managing to ignore that she was actually attempting to swap one variation of milk for another).
Do you really want to legitimise a sense of injustice of such a person, a person who has inarguable objective facts against her? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who believes Barack Obama is in breach of the US Constitution for being a Kenyan Muslim? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who doesn't just believe that taxes are too high, but that taxes are illegal?
People who believe manifestly wrong things don't deserve to be told their attitude is legitimate and that they ought to be listened to. They require education and correction. There is still SOME such thing as objective truth in this world, and I for one am not in favour of saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion of justice when it's based on things that are demonstrably untrue.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think Trump is a fascist. I don't think he's much of anything, really. I still feel that this is all a game to him.
Trump is a reality television contestant. It was only a matter of time before the genre became so ubiquitous that people started having difficulty distinguishing it from reality. That is, after all, the conceit of the genre.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
|
Posted
Actually, he wasn't a contestant himself, he just hired and fired contestants.
As much as I think Trump would be a terrible disaster of a president, I remember commenting at the time about his TV show that it was one of the most real of all the reality shows I knew of because he really was a business owner, and he was hiring and firing people for real jobs (as far as I could tell).
I'm willing to give him that much, just not much else. And he was somewhat entertaining to watch, if also rather off-putting. All the other so-called "reality" shows I knew about put contestants in highly unrealistic situations.
--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
And in other Trump-related news:
quote:
This spring, just as the GOP nomination battle enters its final phase, frontrunner Donald Trump... He’s due to take the witness stand in a federal courtroom in San Diego, where he is being accused of running a financial fraud.
This could make for interesting campaigning.
And if the FBI decides prosecute Hillary for her illegal email system, we could have both parties lead players in hot water at about election time.
Hillary will sell out anything to please big money multinationals and build her personal fortune, do you really think Cruz would be better than Trump? Most years there no particularly good choice but this year there are only horrid choices.
An interesting year indeed.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Belle Ringer--
FYI: From what I understand, other high-ranking federal officials--and not just from this administration--have also had private e-mail servers. And the classified topics were classified *after* she sent her e-mails. Evidently, things change classification all the time.
As to finances: I haven't kept track, but yes, she's probably getting a lot of money from big business. You can't run a campaign without a lot of money. And yes, that means influence-peddling. I also know, because I'm on her mailing list, that she's constantly seeking small donations from ordinary people. Even $1.
FWIW.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This is confusing "injustice" with other words.
Justice is not entirely objective, I will grant you, but the idea that people can treat anything and everything as an "injustice" and get away with it is absurd.
Recently in Australia there was some social media noise about a woman who bought milk in one chain of supermarkets, then took it back to an entirely different competitor chain for a swap/refund and then went online to complain when the competitor said no, she would have to go to the original store. "Why?" she said, "it's all just milk, it's all the same" (managing to ignore that she was actually attempting to swap one variation of milk for another).
Do you really want to legitimise a sense of injustice of such a person, a person who has inarguable objective facts against her? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who believes Barack Obama is in breach of the US Constitution for being a Kenyan Muslim? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who doesn't just believe that taxes are too high, but that taxes are illegal?
People who believe manifestly wrong things don't deserve to be told their attitude is legitimate and that they ought to be listened to. They require education and correction. There is still SOME such thing as objective truth in this world, and I for one am not in favour of saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion of justice when it's based on things that are demonstrably untrue.
Well said. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Thank you.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
deano
princess
# 12063
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But the thing is, to someone who feels they have an injustice, that is reality. There is nothing imagined about their injustice. Only you, viewing it through your subjective lenses, percieve it as imagined.
This is confusing "injustice" with other words.
Justice is not entirely objective, I will grant you, but the idea that people can treat anything and everything as an "injustice" and get away with it is absurd.
Recently in Australia there was some social media noise about a woman who bought milk in one chain of supermarkets, then took it back to an entirely different competitor chain for a swap/refund and then went online to complain when the competitor said no, she would have to go to the original store. "Why?" she said, "it's all just milk, it's all the same" (managing to ignore that she was actually attempting to swap one variation of milk for another).
Do you really want to legitimise a sense of injustice of such a person, a person who has inarguable objective facts against her? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who believes Barack Obama is in breach of the US Constitution for being a Kenyan Muslim? Do you want to legitimise a sense of injustice from someone who doesn't just believe that taxes are too high, but that taxes are illegal?
People who believe manifestly wrong things don't deserve to be told their attitude is legitimate and that they ought to be listened to. They require education and correction. There is still SOME such thing as objective truth in this world, and I for one am not in favour of saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion of justice when it's based on things that are demonstrably untrue.
It seems like a lovely view from the top of that intellectual, academic, idealistic ivory tower.
How is your plan working out in practice?
--------------------
"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
I find it interesting that someone can argue "how dare you say that followers of Trump are dumb, you must give a better-founded reaction than that!" and "your reaction is too intellectual!" at the same time. Which one is it?
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
