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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
la vie en rouge: I think a more rational human being than Trump would have figured out that he’s in way over his head, and have the good sense to be alarmed.
I still have the feeling that deep down, he has and he is.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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Me too, actually.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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leftfieldlover
Shipmate
# 13467

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I am not an American so can claim ignorance in this, but is it really too late for the Republican party to come up with a 'reasonable' candidate at this late hour? If Trump becomes President, I think we'll all be hiding under our bedclothes for 4 years.
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quetzalcoatl
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Me also, not American, but I find it hard to see Trump beating Clinton. OK, Hillary has loads of deficits, for one thing, she seems in hock to Wall St, but still and all, she is a kind of known quantity, isn't she? Trump looks like a wild animal, who is now trying to be nice. Kind of grotesque.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
la vie en rouge: I think a more rational human being than Trump would have figured out that he’s in way over his head, and have the good sense to be alarmed.
I still have the feeling that deep down, he has and he is.
He did that decades ago and has lived in a state of denial ever since. He's simply deluded, sense of destiny etc.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Schwarzenegger did have some good ideas. His climate change policy was forward-thinking, and his proposal to get rid of a bunch of the paid state commissions that do precisely nothing was a good one. But all in all, his election and re-election were not exactly California's finest hours.

As a Californian, I would have to agree, although that hasn't kept anyone from running for higher office. The first couple of years the Gubernator was a complete disaster-- came in opportunistically, ousting an effective incumbent, and attempting to rule heavy-handedly and unilaterally. He got slapped down hard by the electorate. But here's where he broke with Republican tradition: instead of doubling down on the alpha-male bullying... he listened. He started building coalitions and working with a rather liberal legislature. And things got done. He was definitely not our best governor, but he got better over time. Which in and of itself disqualifies him to the GOP-- his best days/ biggest accomplishments were when he was working with the Dems. Although you'd think he'd get some extra credit points for sticking it to a Kennedy (ex-wife Maria).

The citizenship thing is hysterical. The constitution just says "natural born" citizen, which everyone has always assumed means "born in the USA" but in fact has never been tested or defined by the courts, so could in fact mean "citizen at birth" (i.e. American parents), which is why Cruz could possibly qualify but not Arnie. Of course, that's a much different definition than what the GOP has been handing us for the past 8 years of birther nonsense, but no reason to dig that up...

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
I am not an American so can claim ignorance in this, but is it really too late for the Republican party to come up with a 'reasonable' candidate at this late hour? If Trump becomes President, I think we'll all be hiding under our bedclothes for 4 years.

IMO, they have one reasonable person running: John Kasich. He will not be the nominee no matter what happens because he is too moderate for the Republican base to support. Just the fact that he expanded Medicaid in Ohio as part of that state's implementation of the Affordable Care Act dooms his campaign.

It is technically, mathematically not too late for Cruz or Rubio to garner enough votes to secure the nomination, but they have to win starting now. Starting March 15 the states are allowed to award all their delegates to the winner rather than dividing them proportionally. Rubio's home state, Florida, votes that day, and he absolutely must win to stay alive in this campaign, but last I looked he was behind 16 percentage points in the polls. Turning that around in under two weeks is a huge task.

Trump is behind where Romney was at this point 4 years ago, and it's not yet a done deal, but things do not look good for the Republican party.

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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

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At least the trains will run on time.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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There's a number of superb memes/videos/comic articles about Trump's real intent. (Whatever else the man is, he is a kindly and thoughtful God's gift to comedy. Have you seen the video, in which Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom set up a new scam? Only Sarah Palin was as good, in my lifetime. I look forward with anticipation to this week's Saturday Night Live.)
I believe that Trump is a narcissist and an egomaniac, and has only a tangential relationship with reality. There could possibly be a worse person to be President, but it would take a long search to find that person.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
I am not an American so can claim ignorance in this, but is it really too late for the Republican party to come up with a 'reasonable' candidate at this late hour?

The Republican party has set up a system whereby it picks its presidential candidate. So far, the candidate that is preferred by Republican voters is Donald Trump. The fact that he's very disliked by the Republican elites (and a yoooge swath of non-Republican Americans) seems to be a failing of democracy. So far Donald Trump has abided by the electoral rules the Republican party has set out and emerged as the leader (though not yet the winner) of the Republican primary process. I can't think of anything more damaging to the Republican Party than for its leaders to suddenly declare that their voters "aren't ready for democracy" or some other self-serving euphemism and declare a do-over on the 2016 primaries (or just install some hand-picked puppet candidate). If you think Donald Trump and his supporters are in an ugly mood now, just think how they'd behave if they had proof positive that the fix was in and the system really was rigged against them.

In short, the basic problem is that the Republican party has spent the last half century carefully cultivating a voter base that was built to respond to someone just like Trump. (Angry grievances against "the elites", suspicious of anyone with skin darker than a flounder filet, convinced anything that contradicts their prejudices is manufactured by the media. Is it any wonder they rallied around the King of the Birthers?) It's a little late to be worrying about the easily foreseeable consequences of this strategy now.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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quote:
In short, the basic problem is that the Republican party has spent the last half century carefully cultivating a voter base that was built to respond to someone just like Trump. (Angry grievances against "the elites", suspicious of anyone with skin darker than a flounder filet, convinced anything that contradicts their prejudices is manufactured by the media. Is it any wonder they rallied around the King of the Birthers?) It's a little late to be worrying about the easily foreseeable consequences of this strategy now. [/QB]
There ya go. At this moment, today, the problem lies solely upon the GOP's plate, stinking and twitching. A few of us did our mite in the primaries to help them out of their awful dilemma. (I went and voted for Rubio!)
But the larger problem is theirs alone, and they have to fix it -- we cannot. Once Trump actually becomes their flag bearer then we can of course crush them under our heels at the voting booth in November. But until the GOP convention, we can only sit here and point out, kindly but in great detail, the many aspects of their fearful problem. And not giggle too much.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

But until the GOP convention, we can only sit here and point out, kindly but in great detail, the many aspects of their fearful problem. And not giggle too much.

Yeah, for the most part as a diehard Dem I'm looking at this train wreck and just [Killing me]

But every now and then I stop and ask...

...but what if he wins?...

[Eek!]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Trump:

Albright: World 'looking at us as if we’ve lost our minds'

Between now and Election Day I'll be visiting both Canada and England. I dread the questions I might be asked. (Maybe I need a large button to wear saying "I'm not voting for Trump.")

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Trump:

Albright: World 'looking at us as if we’ve lost our minds'

Between now and Election Day I'll be visiting both Canada and England. I dread the questions I might be asked. (Maybe I need a large button to wear saying "I'm not voting for Trump.")
But it might be a good opportunity to check out various locales, real estate prices, job opportunities, immigration requirements...

Personally, I'm really glad my DH never relinquished his Canadian citizenship. I'm thinking San Juan islands...

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It is technically, mathematically not too late for Cruz or Rubio to garner enough votes to secure the nomination, but they have to win starting now. Starting March 15 the states are allowed to award all their delegates to the winner rather than dividing them proportionally.

Less than half the Republican convention delegates have been awarded so far, so no one can be mathematically eliminated from the race.

So where does the primary race stand right now? On the Republican side the delegate breakdown looks something like this:

  • Trump 331
  • Cruz 230
  • Rubio 114
  • Kasich 27
  • Various Withdrawn Candidates 15
  • Unassigned 11

There are 11 delegates from five states that are still being sorted out and some of the states from Super Tuesday are still figuring out their exact delegate allocation, but the above list is within +/-1%. A winning number of delegates (enough to secure the Republican nomination on the first ballot at convention) is 1,237. Donald Trump is ~27% of the way there after securing 46% of the delegates awarded thus far.

On the Democratic side the race looks like this:

  • Clinton 607 (+454)
  • Sanders 404 (+19)
  • O'Malley 0 (+1)
  • Unassigned 10

The numbers in parentheses represent the number of unpledged (or "super") delegates declaring support for each candidate. Hillary Clinton has ~45% of the delegates needed to secure her party's nomination (2,382) if you include superdelegates in her total, or ~25% of the way there without relying on superdelegates. As with the Republicans, there are a few delegates (10) still undetermined after Super Tuesday.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

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As I've mentioned before on this thread, I seem to remember there was a duff presidential candidate sometime in the seventies who went spectacularly down in flames on election day. I think he lost to Nixon. That would presumably mean he was a democrat. From recollection, he was just well-meaningly duff rather than terrifying like Trump.

I recognise I'm an outsider. US citizens might regard this as unwarrantable cheek.

All the same, if Trump does end up as one of the two presidential candidates, and you are a US citizen, it will be your duty, as a patriot, to the rest of the world, and as a person who is answerable to Almighty God for your actions to turn out on the election day and vote for whichever other candidate has the best chance of preventing Trump from becoming president. That is irrespective of how distasteful that may be to your personal feelings, family tradition or whatever.

Not voting is morally insufficient. If you don't vote, and Trump ends up in office, it will be your fault and you will have no right to complain afterwards.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But it might be a good opportunity to check out various locales, real estate prices, job opportunities, immigration requirements...

I wonder how many countries would recognize rights to asylum for US citizens fleeing Trump.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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For those who are wondering about the earliest a candidate could potentially be mathematically eliminated from the Republican primary race, here are the earliest possible dates for each remaining contender, given the delegate count specified in my last post.

John Kasich - March 15
Marco Rubio - March 15
Ted Cruz - March 19
Donald Trump - April 3

Earliest possible mathematical elimination looks for the point on the convention calendar where there will no longer be enough delegates left which would, when combined with the delegates already awarded, add up to the magic number of 1,237.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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A lot of Republican elites are saying just that, Enoch. Not all, of course. But there are die-hard Republican movers and shakers who have declared that they are willing to lose the White House for at least 4 years and the Supreme Court for up to a generation because they think Trump is so dangerous. This Bloomberg View article with a large collection of quotes is a good illustration.
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... vote for whichever other candidate has the best chance of preventing Trump from becoming president. That is irrespective of how distasteful that may be ...

Ah, tactical voting, familiar to anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland: you may have to cast a vote for a raving loony to avoid casting one for a terrorist.

Although in this case, it's rather more avoiding the raving loony ... [Eek!]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
A lot of Republican elites are saying just that, Enoch. Not all, of course. But there are die-hard Republican movers and shakers who have declared that they are willing to lose the White House for at least 4 years and the Supreme Court for up to a generation because they think Trump is so dangerous. This Bloomberg View article with a large collection of quotes is a good illustration.

In that case they had better get themselves and their party in order so that neither Trump nor anything similar rises to the top of the septic tank that is Republican presidential hopefuls next time around.

It won't happen if they just sit on their asses and their assets.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... vote for whichever other candidate has the best chance of preventing Trump from becoming president. That is irrespective of how distasteful that may be ...

Ah, tactical voting, familiar to anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland: you may have to cast a vote for a raving loony to avoid casting one for a terrorist.

Although in this case, it's rather more avoiding the raving loony ... [Eek!]

... Not to mention the other voting principle in the Province: Vote early, vote often.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The citizenship thing is hysterical. The constitution just says "natural born" citizen, which everyone has always assumed means "born in the USA" but in fact has never been tested or defined by the courts, ...

Well I suppose that depends on how you read the constitution. There are those who read it literally and those who try to decypher its original intent (and for exegetical purposes some on the evangelical right can't be far short of canonising it).

So if we take "natural born" as something to be taken on the basis of contemporary reading and understanding, it could mean "not artificially born" or "birth not brought about by unnatural means". That would allow us immediately to exclude all test-tube babies, those from surrogate mothers and other from running for president.

And here's a desperate thought - maybe we could exclude Trump if he was a c-section baby. To think of it that way, I can't envision anyone with head his size being naturally born.

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... The Respectable

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by molopata:

And here's a desperate thought - maybe we could exclude Trump if he was a c-section baby. To think of it that way, I can't envision anyone with head his size being naturally born.

d*** you molopata, now I can't not think about that and shall have to gouge the memory cells out of my gray matter with a sharpened spoon!

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... vote for whichever other candidate has the best chance of preventing Trump from becoming president. That is irrespective of how distasteful that may be ...

Ah, tactical voting, familiar to anyone who's lived in Northern Ireland: you may have to cast a vote for a raving loony to avoid casting one for a terrorist.

Although in this case, it's rather more avoiding the raving loony ... [Eek!]

Actually, in this case it's a matter of choosing between voting for the raving loon or voting for the sociopathic terrorist in order to avoid casting one for the raving, sociopathic terrorist loon.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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If I were Canada I would threaten to build a wall. Which, of course, the USA will have to pay for.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Brenda Clough: If I were Canada I would threaten to build a wall. Which, of course, the USA will have to pay for.
That's a longer one than the Mexico wall.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But it might be a good opportunity to check out various locales, real estate prices, job opportunities, immigration requirements...

I wonder how many countries would recognize rights to asylum for US citizens fleeing Trump.
Can't imagine many European nations being thrilled. We’re already having enough trouble deciding what to do about all the Syrians [Biased] .

(Apparently there was a big spike the other night in people searching Google for “how to move to Canada”.)

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

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3 Things:

1. The "Dark Horse" Possibility:

We have long heard talk about a brokered convention for the GOP where there is no clear victor going in (or at least no one who can win a majority of delegates, pledged and unpledged, on the first ballot). Now there is talk of the emergence of a Dark Horse candidate at the convention. There is talk of this maybe being Mitt Romney (really?). Before the current system of primaries was instituted around 1972, a Dark Horse candidate was someone who was not publicly running for the nomination before the convention. Do party rules currently allow for a candidate to be nominated who was not on the primary or caucus ballot in any state or territory?

2. Trump v. Megyn Kelly - the rematch

The Republican Debate on Fox News tonight at 9 pm EST in Detroit will have Megyn Kelly as a moderator and Trump is not bailing out this time. This means that they will both be at a debate for the first time since she confronted him at the first GOP debate for his comments on women he did not like and his comments after that debate that she was "bleeding out of her whatever." This should be interesting/disturbing.

3. The fact that two political commentators got into a debate about the KKK live on the air on CNN as if there were any debate to be had on that issue is sickening.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/arts/television/cnn-commentators-argue-over-trump-and-the-ku-klux-klan.html?hp&action=click &pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But it might be a good opportunity to check out various locales, real estate prices, job opportunities, immigration requirements...

I wonder how many countries would recognize rights to asylum for US citizens fleeing Trump.
Can't imagine many European nations being thrilled. We’re already having enough trouble deciding what to do about all the Syrians [Biased] .

(Apparently there was a big spike the other night in people searching Google for “how to move to Canada”.)

Cape Breton is putting out the welcome mat.

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Re dark horse candidates: Different states have different rules for their delegates, but some will be free to vote for whoever they want on the second ballot, and most will be free on the third ballot.

Another thing to consider is that the actual rules of the convention, including who can be nominated from the floor, haven't been written yet, because the rules committee is elected by state delegates, and the delegates haven't all been chosen yet. The last delegates won't be chosen till the last primaries on June 7, so the jockeying for position will go on for some time. And then they'll have about 6 weeks to finish writing the rules.

There hasn't been a contested convention since the Democrats had one in 1952, so this is uncharted territory - none of the people involved has any experience of this. And it will most likely be a disaster for the Republican party, as they will have an ugly political fight on national TV and the Democrats will have a triumphant coronation of the first woman to lead a major party.

If they don't want Trump to be the nominee, they will either have to somehow get someone else elected or they will have to be willing to sacrifice their chances of winning the White House and possibly lose the Senate. There are decent, good people with sincere faith in conservative political principles who have very hard choices to make.

Mitt Romney's speech denouncing Trump is important, because the previous standard bearer is always expected to line up and support the new one. Romney has staked out a position he will not be able to credibly retrieve later on - he has planted his flag, much as Chris Christie has. My respect for him has shot up.

[ 03. March 2016, 19:52: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Mitt Romney's speech denouncing Trump is important, because the previous standard bearer is always expected to line up and support the new one. Romney has staked out a position he will not be able to credibly retrieve later on - he has planted his flag, much as Chris Christie has. My respect for him has shot up.

Expect to repeatedly see clips of Donald Trump's endorsement of Mitt Romney and Romney's enthusiastic acceptance of that endorsement over the next week or so.

An unflattering analysis of Romney's speech. The takeaway seems to be:

quote:
As with most of the of the speech, the problem isn’t so much that the criticism is wrong as that it applies equally to all of Trump’s rivals for the nomination. Perhaps this is the real problem.
And here's something for all those who thought the Gay Agenda™ would Destroy America. Who knew they were so insidious?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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For those who are interested, Politico has a full transcript of Romney's speech.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
...
If they don't want Trump to be the nominee, they will either have to somehow get someone else elected or they will have to be willing to sacrifice their chances of winning the White House and possibly lose the Senate. There are decent, good people with sincere faith in conservative political principles who have very hard choices to make.

...

Thanks for that.

We so rarely hear the view that the "other side" has decent good people in it. Politics, especially as done through the internet and social media, has become toxic. There is no allowable middle ground. If I had a share in Apple for every time I've heard that "Conservatives are stupid - there was a study" line, I'd be rich.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
3. The fact that two political commentators got into a debate about the KKK live on the air on CNN as if there were any debate to be had on that issue is sickening.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/arts/television/cnn-commentators-argue-over-trump-and-the-ku-klux-klan.html?hp&action=click &pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

A nice quote provided at the end of this article I came across while reading the linked article above:

quote:
... there is no recourse to bankruptcy court in international affairs.


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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Brenda Clough
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I simply cannot imagine Trump allowing rules fidgeting to deprive him of the nomination. Sooner would he pull down the pillars and drag the entire temple down, Nor can I imagine him putting his support behind any other nominee other than his own self. Either way, there's going to be blood.

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Brenda Clough
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Oh, and my son reports that the city of Cleveland (where the GOP convention is to be held) is starting to amass riot gear. Miles and miles of steel barriers, to control protesters.

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
There are decent, good people with sincere faith in conservative political principles who have very hard choices to make.

This isn't a new phenomenon, either. My mother was a life-long Republican, but freely admitted that the party hadn't put forward a presidential candidate she felt she could vote for with a clean conscience since Ike.
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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
simontoad--

I have a hard time knowing whether you're serious or sarcastic. In case you're serious:

The Arnold can't be president, because he wasn't born a citizen. (Some bozos in Congress wanted to change the law, so that he could run. Fortunately, that didn't get very far.)

As to his time governing my state: the kindest thing I can say is that opinions vary, and mine are very negative.

With me, it's safe to assume I'm mostly being silly or stupid. [Razz]

It is hard to get a read on state politics in the US, or even what's happening at a Congressional level. I mean, I spose I could do a search, but I reckon you really need to live there to get the right feel for things. Second best is to find people on the ground who have similar views to you and pick their brains. That's my preferred method. I live next door to a Canuk, but he just shrugs and looks resigned when I mention the States.

I acknowledge too that my posts are confusing, even to me when I read them back. For instance, I'm pretty sure what I really wanted to know in the post which you responded to was whether Ted Cruz was an anchor baby, but I clearly forgot that early on in the drafting process.

I repeat: Is Ted Cruz an anchor baby?

I'm also bi-polar, 10 year on meds. If a little elevated, I tend to ping ideas about inside my skull.

[ 04. March 2016, 00:46: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Human

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
For instance, I'm pretty sure what I really wanted to know in the post which you responded to was whether Ted Cruz was an anchor baby, but I clearly forgot that early on in the drafting process.

I repeat: Is Ted Cruz an anchor baby?

No-- his situation is pretty much the reverse of anchor baby.

An anchor baby is one who is born in the US where both parents are not citizens. The baby then is a citizen, but parents are not, but may be able to use baby's citizenship to obtain legal residency-- hence the "anchor". There are rumors of women wading the Rio Grande in early stage labor, no mean feat when you're not in labor so hard to imagine such a thing-- such rumors probably have no more validity than similar dog-whistle urban legends about "welfare queens" driving Cadillacs.

In any event, Cruz is the reverse of that. Cruz was born in Canada to a Cuban father and American mother. So he is definitely an American citizen. The question is whether or not he is a "native-born citizen" which, again, is something that's never been challenged or clarified before. The assumption has been that "native born" means born in USA but Cruz is arguing (and some constitutional scholars agree) it means you were a citizen at birth, rather than naturalized later. Hence the calls for a SCOTUS ruling before Cruz' campaign goes any further. At least there's a tad more validity in this accusation than there was the last time Trump called for such a determination. (fyi: In '08 in the height of the birther scandals it was determined that McCain was a "native-born" citizen even though he was born in Panama, because he was born on a US military base.)

[ 04. March 2016, 00:54: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
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Re Christopher Buckley's satirical inaugural address for Trump, from 16 years ago:

This is hard to find, because the Washington Post has it behind a pay wall or something. But I found a MS Word version on a university course site. IMHO, it really does sound like Trump!

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
There are decent, good people with sincere faith in conservative political principles who have very hard choices to make.

Understand, I know people who are more than just good who have conservative political principals. However, I maintain that it is only with cognitive dissonance that one can have faith in conservative politics and still be good.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If I were Canada I would threaten to build a wall. Which, of course, the USA will have to pay for.

There is already a comedy video for that. As part of Canada's campaign to be elected US President.
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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
There are decent, good people with sincere faith in conservative political principles who have very hard choices to make.

Understand, I know people who are more than just good who have conservative political principals. However, I maintain that it is only with cognitive dissonance that one can have faith in conservative politics and still be good.
I didn't say conservative politics - I said conservative principles. Stuff Russell Kirk believed in.

quote:
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
...
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
...
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription. ... that is, of things established by immemorial usage, so that the mind of man runneth not to the contrary.
...
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
...
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety. They feel affection for the proliferating intricacy of long-established social institutions and modes of life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and deadening egalitarianism of radical systems.
...
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectibility. ... Man being imperfect, no perfect social order ever can be created. ... To seek for utopia is to end in disaster, the conservative says: we are not made for perfect things.
...
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked. Separate property from private possession, and Leviathan becomes master of all. ... Getting and spending are not the chief aims of human existence; but a sound economic basis for the person, the family, and the commonwealth is much to be desired.
...
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, [just] as they oppose involuntary collectivism. ... In a genuine community, the decisions most directly affecting the lives of citizens are made locally and voluntarily.
...
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human Passions.
...
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

Many good people can and do believe in these principles. These people are not crazy, they're not stupid, and they're not bad. Hell, except for the thing about property, I think there is a lot of good thinking in what Kirk believed in.

What's crazy and stupid and bad is that the Republican party is full of neoconservatives and obstructionists who have taken limited government to mean no governing at all, leaving true conservatives, conservative in the classical sense, nowhere to go. The self-destruction of the Republican party may turn out to be a good thing in the end, depending on what comes out of it, but it is not good that there is a dearth of decent, viable conservative candidates making the reasoned arguments that mean we can have laws and a government that work reasonably well for all of us. It is not good that there is no viable Republican party at the state level in California, where the Democrats that dominate the state legislature would spend us right into the ground if Governor Jerry Brown didn't insist on some fiscal sense.

Much as I might wish that everyone thought the way I do and shared all my values, that's just not the way the world works. The people who don't share my values -- like my mother, for instance, and at least half my relatives -- deserve to be represented in government just as much as I do. Yes, I think they're wrong, dead wrong, sometimes horrifically wrong, but we all have to live together one way or another, and that's going to go a lot better if differing groups find ways to raise up their best people to argue and make decisions in the halls of government. Starting with the premise that only cognitive dissonance allows conservatives to be good people isn't just so insulting to them they shouldn't have to bother discussing anything with someone holding such a view, it's a bad argument. Ad hominem is ad hominem, whether it's coming from us or the short-fingered vulgarian.

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Barnabas62
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I stayed up late, held my nose, switched to Fox News and watched the latest debate. Despite a pretty obvious concerted attack, including the Fox presenters, and despite a few telling blows being landed, the Donald is still standing, may even have benefitted from the obvious over-kill.

Strange thing to see. The thought of any of the four of them in the White House as ostensible leader of the Free World didn't bring much joy to my heart. Viewed from over here, the GOP is in a hell of a state.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
In that case they had better get themselves and their party in order so that neither Trump nor anything similar rises to the top of the septic tank that is Republican presidential hopefuls next time around.

It won't happen if they just sit on their asses and their assets.

I actually think this process will be quite hard to do - as they'll have to change the way they have operated in the last few years.

Trump is the end point of a particular set of tactics which included driving every issue towards extremes and acting as an obstruction at every opportunity.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I said conservative principles. <snip>

"Deadening egalitarianism." That tells me all I have to know about these conservative principles.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
I don't know much about the Republicans, but in a UK context, this one made me fall off my chair laughing. The Conservatives have done anything but that, in fact, they rip up the rule book, if it harms the profits of banks and big business.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I said conservative principles. <snip>

"Deadening egalitarianism." That tells me all I have to know about these conservative principles.
My thoughts exactly.

The fact that it is buried in a pile of pious sounding c**p only made it stink all the more.

As well as explain precisely how we arrived at the situation we now find ourselves in. I understand and appreciate in theory the call to acknowledge something good & decent in the conservative movement. In practice, Jesus may have to come back and show me in a very step by step way precisely what that looks like because I'm finding it really, really hard to see.

[ 04. March 2016, 13:01: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Brenda Clough
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Which is what was great about Obama. He was leading us towards the better side of America -- the one in the Bill of Rights, the one MLK spoke of on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, the shining city on the hill. Even if we didn't get there, we were on the road. We wanted to get there. Trump has another map, and the destination is a mountain all right, but there's a nasty flaming Eye at the top of it that looks very Peter Jackson. This is frightening.

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