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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
Brenda Clough
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In the US this is known as the Billy Graham rule, because Billy Graham went by it after a number of evangelical preachers went down in flames for affairs or adultery.

The second POST link up there summarizes why it is a bad idea:
" ... For men to categorically refuse to meet one-on-one with women is often dehumanizing and denies the image of Christ that each person bears. ... It also fuels the myth that loads of women are waiting around to falsely accuse powerful men of rape, a situation that has occurred, but is rare and often used to discount real sexual trauma."

The rule assumes heteronormativity. Are bisexual people never supposed to be alone with anybody?

Finally, "The rule also promotes the preservation of men and exclusion of women in positions of leadership. If a woman at work cannot meet one-on-one with her boss or colleague, her options for advancement (or even being taken seriously as a colleague) are extremely limited... Colleagues and employees engage in a relationship between grown-ups who ought to be able to have an appropriate work-related conversation or a meal together."

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Leorning Cniht
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There was an employment case a while back. A male dentist had fired his attractive female employee (dental nurse, I think) because he was afraid that spending his days in close proximity to an attractive young woman would lead him to betray his wife. There was no suggestion that either the dentist or his employee had behaved in any kind of inappropriate manner - just that the dentist didn't want to spend time in close proximity to an attractive woman that wasn't his wife because he was afraid that her presence would incite lustful thoughts in him or something.

That attitude neither denies the image of Christ in the woman nor classes her as a potential false rape-accuser. It's not about the woman at all.

It's heteronormative, because conservative evangelicals are heteronormative. And obviously it's unfair to women - if male employees are getting opportunities that female employees aren't, because the boss won't travel with a woman, say.

If we were talking about an alcoholic avoiding spending time in the presence of alcohol - not having any in his home, not putting himself in positions where he could be tempted to have a drink - we'd be applauding his attempts to control his problem. Which is fine, because alcohol isn't a person, and we don't have to consider the effect on the alcohol.

So what if someone's weakness is sexual attraction, rather than alcohol? He'd like to do all the same kinds of things to remove temptation from his path, but we also have to consider the position of the person or people that he is excluding for fear that he might be attracted to them, because they are people.

I see both sides of this one, and I'm not really sure what the right answer is.

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Brenda Clough
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The weak dentist had a clear solution: hire only male assistants, or female ones that were not attractive to him. You cannot tell me that all dental assistants are hotties. He surely knew of his proclivities and could have compensated for them. A pity, that the fired assistant had to bear the burden for his own lack of self-knowledge.

A dentistry is a private business. A public official like a vice president was elected to serve all the people. If he's dropping more than half of us out, we have a cause for complaint.

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TurquoiseTastic

Fish of a different color
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It is very standard, though, for teachers or youth workers to avoid being alone with a single child - indeed many organisations require this. Is this not similar?
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
There was an employment case a while back. A male dentist had fired his attractive female employee (dental nurse, I think) because he was afraid that spending his days in close proximity to an attractive young woman would lead him to betray his wife. There was no suggestion that either the dentist or his employee had behaved in any kind of inappropriate manner - just that the dentist didn't want to spend time in close proximity to an attractive woman that wasn't his wife because he was afraid that her presence would incite lustful thoughts in him or something.

That attitude neither denies the image of Christ in the woman nor classes her as a potential false rape-accuser. It's not about the woman at all.

Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A public official like a vice president was elected to serve all the people. If he's dropping more than half of us out, we have a cause for complaint.

For example, what if Susan Collins or Joni Ernst need to have a private meeting with the Vice President (a.k.a. the President of the Senate). I suppose I can see a certain reluctance to be in a room alone with Joni Ernst as merely prudent, but this would seem to put female senators at a decided disadvantage relative to their male colleagues.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
It is very standard, though, for teachers or youth workers to avoid being alone with a single child - indeed many organisations require this. Is this not similar?

Only if you regard "adult women" = "children" to be a valid comparison.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

So what if someone's weakness is sexual attraction, rather than alcohol?

Except that is not how it works. The psychology of cheating and the psychology of addiction are not the same. There might be similar underlying causes in specific cases, but cheating =\= addiction.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Pigwidgeon

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I don't think the alcoholic drink is going to be at a disadvantage professionally if someone chooses not to be in the room with it.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Brenda Clough
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There's already a meme going around, of Pence insisting that the bottle of Mrs. Butterworth (a pancake syrup sold in a plastic bottle representing the lady) be removed from his breakfast table.

The other way this is wrong is that somehow it is the woman's job to keep Pence pure. Heaven forfend that he has control over his own dick. He gets to be as weird as he likes; women get to cope with it. We have to change to meet his needs. From there it is a short step to demanding that our temptations be hidden from his august sight. Hats, veils, gloves, long skirts? The list is endless. And we can prove that even the most thorough hiding (the full length burka) is insufficient; women in burkas are raped every day. No, clearly the simplest thing is to keep them entirely out of view; strict purdah is the way to go. And why do they need to work, anyway? They can't get good jobs, since by now they can't be in college classrooms, labs, yes even dental offices.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's already a meme going around, of Pence insisting that the bottle of Mrs. Butterworth (a pancake syrup sold in a plastic bottle representing the lady) be removed from his breakfast table.

Like a lot of the good ones, this one comes from The Onion.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

There is a difference between seeing an attractive woman as only good for sex, and not being able to get past your sexual attraction towards her when you are together.

And yes, of course the consequences are about the woman - she lost her job - but it's not because the dentist thinks that women are inferior or otherwise has opinions about the suitability of women for particular jobs.

quote:
this would seem to put female senators at a decided disadvantage relative to their male colleagues.
Yes, of course. And of course that's a problem. Perhaps a glass-walled office with a staffer sitting in the outer office would satisfy both parties?

Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Except insofar as the dentist's inability to see women as friends, co-workers, protégés, or anything other than sex objects cost that woman her job. That bit was pretty much about her.

You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

There is a difference between seeing an attractive woman as only good for sex, and not being able to get past your sexual attraction towards her when you are together.

And yes, of course the consequences are about the woman - she lost her job - but it's not because the dentist thinks that women are inferior or otherwise has opinions about the suitability of women for particular jobs.

Except that was exactly what he did; decided that women were unsuitable for a certain job on the grounds that he's a perv.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.

Wow. Just wow! Apparently Mike Pence's sexual insecurities have such a great need to be catered to that a Governor can dictate terms to the President about who is and isn't cleared to be present at a meeting. Again, wow!

And I don't think I'm projecting. Pence and others have made it clear that they're sizing up all non-related women as potential sex partners and that this consideration takes primacy over any other consideration of women as colleagues or people. The fact that Pence is taking some ostentatious measures because he can't help doing this doesn't mean he's not doing this.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[QUOTE]

Presumably if the situation were reversed (say Governor Pence needed to have a private discussion with President Clinton) he would just decide to not have a private discussion and bring an aide with him.

He might not have been Governor Pence. He was up for reelection when he was given the VP nod and wasn't exactly a runaway in the state polls.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You're projecting. The dentist was not unable to see women as "anything other than sex objects". He just wasn't able to get past his sexual attraction. These are different things.

He is still seeing her as primarily a sex object and transferring all the responsibility to her. Despite "love at first sight" bullshit, we control the level of our attraction. Not necessarily the initial attractions, but certainly anything deeper. For his attraction to become "out of his control" he will have allowed it to build. Instead of taking steps to ameliorate it, he's allowed it to become a problem.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

And I don't think I'm projecting. Pence and others have made it clear that they're sizing up all non-related women as potential sex partners and that this consideration takes primacy over any other consideration of women as colleagues or people. The fact that Pence is taking some ostentatious measures because he can't help doing this doesn't mean he's not doing this.

I suppose I'm trying to imagine what it's like being Mike Pence, which is a bit of a challenge. Because I've gone away to conferences with attractive female colleagues, eaten dinner with them and so on, without once thinking about having sex with them. As have, I assume, a large number of other people. So I don't really know what being scared of being around women is like.

So I'm thinking about it rather like this: Suppose a colleague came to talk to me carrying a fragrant slice of hot apple pie. I'm going to be thinking about the pie. I'm not going to be able to not think about the pie. Our meeting is going to be interrupted by my stomach making gurgling noises.

This doesn't mean that I think that my colleague's status as a pie-carrier takes primacy over any of his attributes as a person, and it doesn't mean that I think less of his other abilities than I do of someone who isn't carrying pie - it just means I'm distracted by his pie. I'm not going to be able to concentrate properly in the presence of his pie.

Basically, I'm distinguishing between an instinctive reaction and an intellectual one, and holding people entirely responsible for their intellectual responses, whilst trying to be charitable towards people who are trying to control their instincts.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I don't think the alcoholic drink is going to be at a disadvantage professionally if someone chooses not to be in the room with it.

Except that perfectly good booze would go to waste.

As despicable as Pence and his policies are, as Christians we should pray that he may continue to take the necessary precautions to "avoid the near occasion of sin," as the nuns in Sunday school used to tell us.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Brenda Clough
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To 'avoid the occasion for sin' by oppressing all women he ever associates with seems to be compounding the error.
I'm reminded of the Iranian imam who said that women emit rays from their hair. These rays corrupt men, hence the necessity for veils. (I am not making this up!)
Does this make sense? Is the problem with women, and those rays? Or is the screwiness in the imam's head?
The other way to think about this is to swap out women and put in some other group. Jews, let us say. I can't be alone with a Jew because (unnamed horrid thing here). Immediately you can smell a rat.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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lilBuddha
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X-post, meant for ABR
Still Rubbish. Complete and total rubbish. And it is exactly what Jesus was addressing when he spoke of sinning in your mind. You avoid temptation by changing the way you think about something, not removing that thing.

[ 31. March 2017, 19:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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Sorry, "lusting in your heart". Same logic applies. The dentist and Pence are still thinking of women as objects of sex first and absolving themselves of responsibility.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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This cries out for the Madeleine Albright solution. You recall that Ms. Albright was Secretary of State. It was a pleasure to see her visiting Saudi Arabia, a woman in a group of white-robed men in a deeply sexist culture. Simply by being there she did them good.

I see the lustful Mr. Pence surrounded by women of power and competence. Generals, captains of industry, deep-pocketed political donors. People he has to be nice to, all women. His proctologist, the best one available for (some health issue here) a female. His pastor, his roofer, his vet. Not only his nurses, but his doctors, his dentists, the people who fix his computer and his car. He needs to meet my daughter (so many men need to meet my daughter). She can parachute out of airplanes, rappel out of black helicopters while clutching an M-16, and certainly knock his block off.

The answer to these horrible attitudes is not purdah, the exact equivalent of segregation. The answer is equality.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, "lusting in your heart". Same logic applies. The dentist and Pence are still thinking of women as objects of sex first and absolving themselves of responsibility.

I don't think thought is involved at all. I think my apple pie image is likely to be closer to what is going on in these men's heads than whatever it is that you're talking about.

And I don't see "I'm going to have trouble in this situation, so I'm going to avoid being in that situation" as absolving anyone of responsibility.

Like I said, I like apple pie. If I have apple pie in the house, I'm going to eat it. I'll probably be able to resist it for a while, but it'll get late, I'll get a bit tired, and I'll be sitting down with a slice of pie. And if I do that too often, I will take on the shape of an apple pie.

So I don't make apple pie often. I don't place the temptation in front of me. Apparently, you think that by not baking pies, I'm absolving myself of responsibility for my diet or something.

I don't get that.


Thinking about it, the different scenarios should be distinguishable. I'm imagining the dentist as a man who is entirely convinced about the general competence of women, but doesn't trust himself around attractive women. (I don't really know what Pence thinks.)

Brenda (and perhaps you) are talking about men who think that women are generally inferior, delicate little flowers who are only good for sex.

Both kinds of men might avoid private meetings with individual women, but I think they must react quite differently towards women in group situations. My image of the dentist would have no problem at all interacting with a female CEO in a boardroom, for example, whereas Brenda's Saudi would.

[ 31. March 2017, 21:16: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So I'm thinking about it rather like this: Suppose a colleague came to talk to me carrying a fragrant slice of hot apple pie. I'm going to be thinking about the pie. I'm not going to be able to not think about the pie. Our meeting is going to be interrupted by my stomach making gurgling noises.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think thought is involved at all. I think my apple pie image is likely to be closer to what is going on in these men's heads than whatever it is that you're talking about.

I take the contrary view. As an adult you should have enough self control to be able to keep you fingers out of your co-worker's pie* and if you don't the problem is you, not them.

Plus, why are women always equated with inanimate objects in these analogies?


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*Paging Dr. Subtext. Please report to the Freudian Ward, stat!

[ 31. March 2017, 21:28: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

So I don't make apple pie often. I don't place the temptation in front of me. Apparently, you think that by not baking pies, I'm absolving myself of responsibility for my diet or something.

Interpersonal relationships are not pie. Reducing them to such is putting too little value on women. Yes, I do know how an analogy works and that not all part of one must weigh equally with the things being compared. But in this case your analogy demonstrates the disconnect in how Pence and the dentist are approaching this issue.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

Plus, why are women always equated with inanimate objects in these analogies?

Because that's what there is. We're comparing people to something, so the choices are another kind of person, or a thing.

There's nothing women-specific in my argument, by the way. It would apply equally to a gay man and an attractive young man, or to a woman and an attractive young man. We just talk about women in these cases because it's usually the man in the powerful position, and he's usually straight.

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lilBuddha
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You, LC , might be using the only analogous subjects you can think of. But the overall problem is still one of objectification.
The gay community, those who are solidly on one end of the scale, have had a history of antipathy towards bisexuals. The logic being that they are more likely to stray as they have more choice. This is ridiculous. Straying is down to one's personal character, not choice available.
"But wait", you say; "People are fallible."
Affairs do not start upon the first meeting. One must allow that feeling to grow. It is a process.
But let us go back to your pie. The secret to losing weight isn't avoiding rich food until you achieve your goal. This is what leads to yo-yo weight loss/gain cycles. You modify how you think about food.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Augustine the Aleut
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I do not see that avoiding a closed-office situation is necessarily sexist or inegalitarian. In my former working life, I was for a few years in an office where there had been Highly Inappropriate Activity in the workplace, connected with a range of human resources issue. For this reason, when I was an acting manager, I religiously kept an open-door policy to help make clear that this period had ended. I looked upon this as an attempt to professionalize the workplace and reduce the likelihood of sexual access as an expectation. Maybe I overdid it, but I don't think so.

For the same reason, when I was required to travel with a female colleague (who compounded her offence by being young, blonde, and attractive), I had our admin person book us on to separate floors in our hotel. A few months later, one of the finance clerks (who process travel claims & stuff) said that she and others had noticed this and wished that everybody had such sense.

As noted above, I would rather be eaten by a zombie armadillo than vote for Mr Pence. And I would cheerfully treat Brenda Clough's rappelling daughter to cappuccino, should she be passing through Ottawa.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Okay, the Billy Graham rule--

It seems to me that as long as Pence doesn't overstep himself (in several different ways), he doesn't deserve to be mocked.

In itself, the BG rule is an admission of personal weakness. We don't routinely mock people for admitting weakness--at least I hope not. (Yeah, of course we do. This is the real world. [Roll Eyes] )

IMHO he doesn't deserve mocking unless:

a) he sets up to tell other people this is what they too ought to be doing, regardless of their own personal weaknesses;

b) he tries to put the blame on other people (i.e. women) for his own weakness in any form, way or shape;

c) he doesn't do everything in his power to mitigate the impact of his own weakness and necessary crutch (the BG rule) on other people. In other words, since he is a politician, and women (just like men) need access to him, occasionally in private, then he is morally bound to make that possible and to an equal degree--that is, to build the freaking glass office, to take along a personal minder on all (not just female) meetings, and so forth. That way nobody gets unfairly disadvantaged.

If he does all this shit, I won't be giving him shit for confessing a weak area. (If he fucks up on one of these things, I won't be defending him.)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I do not see that avoiding a closed-office situation is necessarily sexist or inegalitarian. In my former working life, I was for a few years in an office where there had been Highly Inappropriate Activity in the workplace, connected with a range of human resources issue. For this reason, when I was an acting manager, I religiously kept an open-door policy to help make clear that this period had ended. I looked upon this as an attempt to professionalize the workplace and reduce the likelihood of sexual access as an expectation. Maybe I overdid it, but I don't think so.

For the same reason, when I was required to travel with a female colleague (who compounded her offence by being young, blonde, and attractive), I had our admin person book us on to separate floors in our hotel. A few months later, one of the finance clerks (who process travel claims & stuff) said that she and others had noticed this and wished that everybody had such sense.

As noted above, I would rather be eaten by a zombie armadillo than vote for Mr Pence. And I would cheerfully treat Brenda Clough's rappelling daughter to cappuccino, should she be passing through Ottawa.

This is sensible and I do it myself if I have to be alone with one person of the opposite sex--hell, the same sex, I'm not an idiot--and particularly if it's a minor.

I've gotten occasional funny looks, but I feel no need to explain myself to them. They haven't lived through a shitstorm of false accusations the way we did (and that with NO possibility, but just try proving a negative, hey?).

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Brenda Clough
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Here's a quite cogent article summarizing what is wrong with Pence's position. It's from the New Yorker and so should be a free click.
The money quote:
"But it’s one thing to avoid a particular situation involving a particular woman who makes you feel a certain way; it’s another entirely to avoid all women as a group and as a rule because of the abstract possibility of sexual temptation. It’s telling, and extremely disheartening, that many people can’t tell the difference—that knowing the best thing to do for your partnership and subscribing wholesale to an idea about gender that calcifies woman as secondary could plausibly seem like the same thing. The Pence approach rules out a lunch meeting or a professional dinner with a woman. It also “included requiring that any aide who had to work late to assist him be male.” As National Journal reported two years ago, other congressmen had similar policies, in some cases to avoid the appearance of impropriety—a policy that, the Journal noted, may very well violate laws against discrimination in the workplace. Certainly, this approach is likely to lead to more all-male meetings of the sort we have seen so frequently in the early days of the Trump Administration. And, outside the professional world, it seems well nigh impossible to view a group of people as fully human if you refuse, categorically, to have them as friends."

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Brenda Clough
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Another (free) analysis of Pence's proclivities.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Golden Key
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Oh, this is too good! [Killing me]

"George W. Bush Sums Up Trump Inauguration in Five Words and Hordes Fall in Love with Him for It" (Yahoo).

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

It didn't work for me.
[Frown]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Interpersonal relationships are not pie. Reducing them to such is putting too little value on women.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes, and I wonder if it's because we think differently.

I place a sharp distinction between instinctive reactions and intellectual thoughts. We can expect people to exert control over their thoughts, and the expression of those thoughts. Changing your instincts is very much harder.

I quite frequently have an instinctive first reaction that I overrule intellectually - but the instinct is faster, and gets there first.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You modify how you think about food.

Yeah, that's my point. I can modify how I think intellectually about food. It's much harder to modify my instinctive reaction to food - perhaps how I feel about food.

And I'd agree with you that the ideal would be to instinctively gravitate towards a healthy diet, but that's really hard to do. Thinking intellectually about a healthy diet, and so not having large supplies of things you know you shouldn't eat lying around, is much easier. So I know that I'm likely to succumb to temptation late at night when I'm tired, so I plan for that by controlling the food that I have access to.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

I place a sharp distinction between instinctive reactions and intellectual thoughts. We can expect people to exert control over their thoughts, and the expression of those thoughts. Changing your instincts is very much harder.

I am questioning the level of control that someone exerts over their behaviour. The script has been that men cannot control their lusts and that hiding the women is the only recourse. However much you do not think you believe this, it appears to be ingrained in your thinking. To be fair, it is a common Christian narrative that humans are inveterate sinners that would rape, steal, beat or eat anything they can catch if they do not exert rigid self-control. A false narrative, but an attractive one.
quote:

I quite frequently have an instinctive first reaction that I overrule intellectually - but the instinct is faster, and gets there first.

Everyone does, instincts are hardwired into more primitive parts of our brains.

quote:
Yeah, that's my point. I can modify how I think intellectually about food. It's much harder to modify my instinctive reaction to food - perhaps how I feel about food.

You are not then modifying your behaviour, you are trying to exert self-control. Those are different things.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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Various comments:

--From what I've seen, Pence's rule applies to dinner alone with a woman, and social drinking when not with his wife. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he refuses to meet with a woman, ever.

--ISTM that it may be a wise policy, particularly if he has slipped in the past, and considering the things [Eek!] many members of Congress do--and those are just the ones we hear about.The Washington Post has a very balanced (IMHO) consideration of this. (I didn't get a pay wall.)

--FWIW, I thought that, if Bill Clinton became First Gentleman, there should be a rule that a private meeting with a woman required an open door *always*, unless an aide/chaperone were present. He's an admitted sex addict.

--IMHO, T should have a similar rule, given his track record of sexually assaulting women.

--Not sure about the dentist. Not fair to the woman who lost her job. OTOH, if firing her kept him from doing something inappropriate...

--Brenda suggested the dentist could've hired a man, or an unattractive woman. That might be seen as discrimination, and be insulting to the "unattractive" woman.

--Brenda suggested that Pence thinks women are obligated to keep him pure. I disagree. He's got strict rules about his own behavior. He's not making women cover up, or telling other people *they* can't drink. He hasn't blamed women, said they were in league with the devil, etc. (Unlike some of the long-ago Church Fathers.)

--Re the "Madeleine Albright solution": There was a recent episode of "Madam Secretary", that dealt with all this sort of thing, with details and ramifications. Basically, it was about T's proclivities and possibilities--but they couldn't mention him because he's not president in their world. (And because the real T would probably file a lawsuit, IMHO.) Anyway, the episode was really good. And I will just say that the fictional secretary of state handled things in her own unique style. [Smile] I strongly recommend the episode. And maybe every woman who comes anywhere near T should see it soon.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
The article itself was scathing. And accurate.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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L'organist
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It looks as if a settlement has been agreed in the class action suit about being defrauded by Trump "University", although one victim says she won't sign-up to it because she wants an apology.

Interesting that the legal team representing the POTUS didn't dispute the statement from NY's state attorney general that settling the suit would bring "...relief — and hopefully much-needed closure — to the victims of Donald Trump’s fraudulent university." In other words, DT's own legal people don't dispute that the enterprise was a fraud!

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Let's see if this link works: an animation of this week's cover of the ECONOMIST.

I think you want this.
Thanks, LC. The mysteries of linking sometimes baffle me. I am sure however this meme will spread widely without my feeble help, it's too cute.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Various comments:

--Brenda suggested the dentist could've hired a man, or an unattractive woman. That might be seen as discrimination, and be insulting to the "unattractive" woman.

No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement. You are not obliged to hire -any- assistant who applies; you get to select the one that you feel you can work with. Remember this is not a public or government position. This would also be the moment (if we postulate the dentist has other deep-seated prejudices) for him to not hire a black assistant, a gay or lesbian, a Catholic, etc. etc. etc. A modicum of tact is all that is required; he need only keep his issues, sexual, racial, whatever, to himself and no one will ever be the wiser.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You are not then modifying your behaviour, you are trying to exert self-control. Those are different things.

I don't agree that it's not modifying my behaviour. I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

quote:
I am questioning the level of control that someone exerts over their behaviour. The script has been that men cannot control their lusts and that hiding the women is the only recourse.
So I'm not seeing this as hiding women so much as the men hiding themselves. It's not about these men requiring women to wear particular clothing, and it's not about saying that she's asking for it if she does wear certain clothing, or goes out in public or whatever. It's about these men not wanting to put themselves in situations where they might be tempted to have thoughts that they don't want to have.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement.

Discrimination is discrimination. Stupid racists put up a sign saying "no blacks". Slightly smarter racists just mysteriously have no vacancies when a black man wants to rent a room. Not getting caught is not the same as not discriminating.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No. Unless he was so foolish as to put in the advertisement for the position "must be a two on the PG scale and/or overweight" or some such denigratory requirement.

Discrimination is discrimination. Stupid racists put up a sign saying "no blacks". Slightly smarter racists just mysteriously have no vacancies when a black man wants to rent a room. Not getting caught is not the same as not discriminating.
Agreed.

I'm with Lamb that knowing ourselves, our weaknesses and vulnerabilities and temptations, is key to spiritual maturity and should be taken as a sign of wisdom and humility-- not something to be mocked. But the guardrails we put up to protect our marriage (or whatever) should come at our own expense, not someone else's.

I have to confess that I have mixed feelings about Pence's application of the Billy Graham rule-- in part because, like others, I'm loathe to defend an indefensible politician, but also because Mr Cliff and I have similar practices. For us it's not so much about temptation as just respect for each other's feelings. It may have something to do with baggage from my first marriage to a serial adulterer-- iow, my own vulnerability/burden, not someone else's. But for whatever reason, our pattern is to give each other a heads up if we're going to be dining alone with a member of opposite gender. Again, more about mutual consideration of each other's feelings.

Pence's pattern seems to have come out of an interview-- I'm not really sure who brought it up. What would make me feel uncomfortable about such a rule would be:

1. If it's enforced too rigidly or legalistically-- where you get hysterical or over-anxious about avoiding such an encounter. Again, at least for Mr Cliff & I, simple considerations like letting your spouse know and meeting in a public space seem to be sufficient. Being rigid about it would make it seem like the other person is kryptonite and again denies their agency and free will in the encounter.

2. Related to #1, if your rule starts impacting other people and costing them access, jobs, whatever-- as with the dentist. If the VP is more accessible to male staffers, representatives, etc than female because of his rule, that's a problem and clearly discriminatory.

3. If you're announcing your rule in a way that seems designed to enhance the perception of your piety. The Pence thing seems to be playing out that way-- a sort of "I'm holier than you, Bill Clinton" prideful kind of vibe to it. But again, not knowing the context in which the revelation was made it's hard to know if that's his intent.

Bottom line for me is this is small potatoes compared to all the really, really important reasons to dislike/oppose the VP.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

Of course it is not "just". Think og behaviour like as a dog. You are saying that your dog wants to bite the postman and the only thing keeping it from doing so it to put it on a chain. I am saying that one can train the dog to not see the postman a a threat.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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Remember, our hypothetical dentist can hire only one assistant. He has to select from a number of applicants. It is easy to winnow out the ones who cannot do dental hygiene, don't know how to work the X-ray device, etc. But then what? Then we shift to a more visceral decision. In other words, pure prejudice (agh! A Methodist!) is at the far end of a spectrum. At some point it shades over into a benign decision process. You can't hire them all; you have to pick one and so you do.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Okay, this Pence lunacy tells me he is an uncivilised asshole. Keeping your mind on the humanity of others is the first most basic aspect of respect. Out of control, deformed in personality and morality. Punch in face.

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We must learn to live in harmony with nature. If we don't cease believing we can master and dominate it, life on Earth may be destroyed.
(formerly known more succinctly as "no prophet"), either way not be taken seriously. \_(ツ)_/

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Golden Key
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cliffdweller--

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Pence's pattern seems to have come out of an interview-- I'm not really sure who brought it up.

The Washington Post article, "Mike Pence doesn’t dine alone with other women. And we’re all shocked.", to which I linked a few posts up, mentions that it was from a 2002 comment to The Hill; but I couldn't find it at The Hill's site.

The WP article does link to a recent, long profile of Mike Pence's wife:

"Karen Pence is the vice president’s ‘prayer warrior,’ gut check and shield" (Wash. Post).

Interesting woman, and interesting relationship. (BTW, her charitable thing is promoting art therapy.) The profile briefly mentions the 2002 interview, KP was married previously, when she was young. Her ex said they grew apart, during the long hours he spent away as a medical student--which has me wondering if *he* slipped up, and if that's one reason for MP's rules.

Did anyone have a chance to read that first article? IMHO, calmness and sanity amid the furor. And other members of Congress have similar rules.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I don't think "behaviour" just means the response of the primitive monkey brain.

Of course it is not "just". Think og behaviour like as a dog. You are saying that your dog wants to bite the postman and the only thing keeping it from doing so it to put it on a chain. I am saying that one can train the dog to not see the postman a a threat.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the dog wants to chase the postman, but I've chained it up / shut it in the living room, and that the combination of dog, chains, and living room door is the thing called "behaviour".
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Okay, this Pence lunacy tells me he is an uncivilised asshole. Keeping your mind on the humanity of others is the first most basic aspect of respect. Out of control, deformed in personality and morality. Punch in face.

There appears to be a touch of a kettle-pot comparison in this statement.

But let's leave that aside, and deal with your second sentence. How does this particular aspect of Pence's behaviour make you think he considers others (presumably women) to be non-human?

I hold no brief for Mike Pence, I disagree with probably almost every one of his policies, and if he came in dripping wet carrying an umbrella and told me it was raining, I'd still want to look outside and check.

Specifically, we are discussing the claims that Mike Pence:
  • Will not have dinner with a lone woman who isn't Mrs. Pence
  • Will not go out and drink / be around people who are drinking without Mrs. Pence
  • Will not work late with a lone female aide

Yes, this is dripping with the conservative culture-scares about sex and alcohol, but how does this in any sense diminish anyone's humanity? I assume, by the way, that Mrs. Pence doesn't dine with lone men either.

I suppose I'm saying that these kinds of attitudes often go hand-in-hand with patriarchal chauvinism, but they don't have to, and so Mike Pence isn't a patriarchal chauvinist because he holds these attitudes.

He is a patriarchal chauvinist, as demonstrated by many of his other behaviours and policies, but not because of this.

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