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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
well according to the the st edmunds discernement/ vocations website ...it is indeed from the ordination service of the Methodist Church in Singapore
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
Might be useful as a discussion starter amongst some ministry candidate friends re. thinking through a theology [or, indeed, theologies] of ordination - I confess that I am going to shamelessly pinch it ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
Today I am off to see a vicar about my SSM curacy for next year ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Very excited, hope they like me and it all comes off.
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
SSM?
Same-sex ministry?
For the unenlightened Presbyterian here... I do not know this term Bagpuss - wot is it, ta?
[both unenlightened and unable to spell - argh]
[ 04. August 2011, 12:36: Message edited by: joan knox ]
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
d'oh... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
thank you!
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
Hahaha not quite Joan! Bit radical for the C of E that is! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 473 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
[tangent]As my Anglican days are now a long time ago I still think of SSM as the Society of the Sacred Mission.[/tangent]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Erleuchte
Apprentice
# 16533
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Posted
Hellooo. New Ship deck-swab here. I'm looking forward to trawling through this thread but for now I will shamelessly plug the blog of my vocation discernment process here:
http://erleuchte.wordpress.com/
Pax, Erleuchte
Posts: 12 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Welcome to the Ship and the thread Erleuchte
The blog looks great!
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
Falling off the bottom of page 3...how is everyone?
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
All my paperwork is in and I'm panicing about my presentation!
To be honest at the moment I'm looking forward to having a decision more than anything else!
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Glad this has been bumped...
I'm on week 2 of my placement with the mega-church and it seems to be going well. I won't get to preach as hey are booked up until Christmas but I am going to take part in leading some lunchtime prayers, go along to some of the small groups and generally experience a different tradition. Little Laxton's is having fun too and looking forward to the Sunday club starting up next week.
I've actually got a pain in the side of my face from smiling and nodding so much, talking to so many people.
Diocese is organising a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road, which will be interesting - sort of pre-BAP tips?
Hope all is well with everyone else.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
Yes, that "being in limbo" is rather odd...hope the presentation goes as you wish it to!
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
"..... a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road"
Hmm, an invite for our archdeaconary one came through last week. It's still all a bit surreal.
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
We had an evening for people going to BAP in autumn a few weeks ago. It was helpful I think. I can't believe how quickly the time is going now! All the things I run here have started back up too, so autumn chaos has begun. I like it though
Is anyone else going to BAP this year?
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
sorry, everytime I see the acronym BAP - I get the giggles and think 'nice baps' ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
It is probably a good thing I am not Anglican, lol!
Ahh... did I just lower the tone as usual... hmmm
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
It's all right jk, they'll change the name next week/month/year. In my day, long ago and when they very wisely decided I was "not yet ready", it had just changed from CACTM to ACCM.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
I think I'll be BAP'ing early next year. Apparently the diocese has a deadline after which one is too late to start training in September, so last BAP result needs to be done by May.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
Whereas, to me, a bap is a largeish flat round bread roll...
WW, I think it was ACCM when I went as well.
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
Was it not ABM at one point as well?
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
"..... a series of evening meets for those on the discernment road"
Hmm, an invite for our archdeaconary one came through last week. It's still all a bit surreal.
We had a couple of these in my diocese as well. They were good for helping to articulate our answers to likely questions. After all, you may know how you feel, and why you think God is calling you, but putting it into words for others can take some thinking about.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
That's intersting Panda. I think our DDO tries to ask the likely questions in his interviews. The evening meeting was very practical stuff about BAPs (and yes, m thoughts alternate between bread rolls and boobs when I hear BAP). Different dioceses really do do things very differently!
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Am a bit overwhelmed at the sheer numbers of people at the placement church. They have to run the Sunday club in sittings as there are so many children. Rather different to my own church where we struggle to attract five children to an all-age service. And having been used to bringing down the average age to about 75 I am stunned at the numbers of younger people, couples in their thirties etc. So is it the theology or the welcome that they are doing right?
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
What's the theology and worship style?
As for my journey, I'm three quarters through my first year and have yet to be chucked out. By the grace of God alone!
I have gained the role of being the group naysayer (or according to the previous group naysayer that has just left the group to be priested - the one that calls "bullshit!".
Can't think why.
[ 12. September 2011, 03:36: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
It's low-church and worship band style. Not to my taste, but it is done well and with enthusiasm.
The theology is... well I haven't really had much chance to assess it, but I would guess the traditional evangelical position, there is lots of "Jesus is Lord" and "thank you Lord for taking our sins away" type stuff. I knoew that I would find it challenging, because my own tradition is much higher up the candle, but I do see that my place has a usual Sunday attendance of 60 and this place at least four times that.
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laxton's Superba:
So is it the theology or the welcome that they are doing right?
To go back to your original question, I think it's kind of a million dollar (pound?) one.
I think if you posed it in Ecclesiantics you'd get a number of different responses.
Why are there more people in that church than your own?
Some would say because of its contemporary worship style (the band?). Some would say it's because it might have a more "Evangelical" theology (black and white) which is more attractive to certain types.
Some would argue it depends on who the leader is. Some particularly charismatic leaders can attract all sorts regardless of worship style or theology. But when they leave, congregants often leave too.
Some would say more middle of the road or high Anglican churches have fewer numbers but more loyal ones. They stick around. Those "new fandangled worship band mega churches" attract lots of people but those people leave fairly quickly out the back door and either lose their faith entirely or revert to more "traditional" options because those kind of churches lack depth.
It's curious they placed you in this church if you are a more up the candle person.
Tho in my diocese, we do that too. But it seems to be the exception.
Go with the flow. Hope you enjoy it. And your little one too. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
re. the placement part of our training up here in the presby frozen wastes of the north: we are encouraged to go on placements that are definitely not like our home church/theol background. This to really try to broaden our exposure to the diversity of styles/ opinions/ etc. I've loved it, even as I've wrestled with some of it.
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
Just giving an update on here of how things are going. If you're someone I know in person and you're finding out this for the first time - apologies, I've not really been focussing on "keeping people up to date" at this particular step.
Basically, I got asked to send some things to our current DDO (who is also our current Bishop rather confusingly) believing these to be things he wanted me to do so we could then meet up and discuss them.
After he'd read these things through, he sent me a letter back, basically saying that what I'd sent and everything else he'd seen of me was "adequate" and that I didn't really burn with any passion or have any urgency or desire for the life of a priest. Rather contradictorily though he did also say that I offer "some evidence of experience or promise in all areas of the selection criteria"! This was done, as far as I know, without any consultation with anyone else and without actually putting me before a panel of people to assess this. I think "disappointed" would be an understatement really. I've got a meeting with him tomorrow where I'm going to raise my thoughts on his comments (and hopefully by doing so he might see my passion, urgency and desire for the life of a priest!)
Prayers gratefully received.
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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harmony hope
Shipmate
# 4070
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Posted
Feeling for you ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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'God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can and Wisdom to know the difference.'
Posts: 645 | From: gentle rolling Oxfordshire countryside | Registered: Feb 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by matthew_dixon:
Rather contradictorily though he did also say that I offer "some evidence of experience or promise in all areas of the selection criteria"!
I'd like to see how he evinced 'evidence or experience or promise in ALL areas of selection criteria', when he was a potential ordinand,testing his vocation!
Does such a person ever exist outside the imagination?
Keep plugging away!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
Well that's the thing - he thinks that person does exist, he thinks that person is me, but thinks I don't really want it, so has seemingly turned me down in spite of that!
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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harmony hope
Shipmate
# 4070
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Posted
m_d - have you had your meeting with your Bishop yet? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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'God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can and Wisdom to know the difference.'
Posts: 645 | From: gentle rolling Oxfordshire countryside | Registered: Feb 2003
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matthew_dixon
Shipmate
# 12278
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Posted
Yes, and it generally went okay. I'm not at the end of the road as I thought I was. It's simply a case of trying harder in the coming weeks and months than maybe I have been doing, it seems.
Posts: 321 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Jan 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Matthew_Dixon
I wonder if it really is a matter of try harder or really a matter of a different emphasis in performance.
I suspect you need to think about showing your passion a bit more overtly. This is going on what is said here. It really is a bit of a personality clash.
You show your passion by developing your competency in areas you see as important to ordination. Therefore when someone asks you about your vocation talk about how you are doing in these areas. What you probably don't do is talk about what drives you to develop those areas.
There is a long history of people with aptitude but no vocation going forward to the ministry. It happens particularly in a certain subset of the population (I belong to it, and oddly enough I have to put a lot of effort into persuading people I am not called). The problem is such people can do enormous damage to the ministry. I don't think I would, but I would damage myself pretty badly pretty quickly in trying to do an impossible task that really isn't my deepest passion.
So in a sense you need to let the Bishop see what is behind gaining those competencies. Now this is where being female may actually help, it is more normative for females to talk about these things. It will feel like a breach of privacy for you. Yet if the Bishop is to really make a good judgement he needs to see it. You might like to spend some time talking through why you want to be a priest, with someone like a spiritual director. Not really to clarify things in your mind, but to find/create a language with which you are happy expressing your motivations.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
I kind of half know where he may be coming from I think?
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and before I knew it I was off to BAP faster than I could imagine due to several factors I won't bore you with.
I wasn't reccommended - got highly commended on about 6 of the criteria but they felt I was still called to be a Reader (I wasn't and I knew that)
Went back 12 months later and got through no problem - difference was the second time I was very in your face on the paperwork and verbally and in my presentation about vocation and calling and actually to be fair I think I owned it more. I think the first time my priest, my Bishop, DDO etc knew it was there but I was still in shock at getting the faculty. Second time it was mine - to the point I cried in the vocations interview (and I am NOT a person who does that in public)
I think what I am trying to say in a long winded way is that you have to be very overt about your feelings - indeed even a little OTT
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harmony hope
Shipmate
# 4070
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Posted
Bagpuss - thank you so much for that. In a way I think you've just summed up something I've been trying to put into words for quite a while, that need to be overtly passionate about vocational yearning/calling...
I think that at my BAP I probably came over as too quiet and introverted but underneath it all my heart was yearning with passion for it - and still is!
Like you, I had a 'no' and had been advised to go back within 12/18 months but I've put off my return now to co-incide with children's exams...hard in some ways but good in others.
In the meanwhile all sorts of opportunities to break out of my 'quiet' persona have been offered to me and I feel blessed to be where I am now...perhaps sometimes we need to really show that passion to be believed!
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'God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can and Wisdom to know the difference.'
Posts: 645 | From: gentle rolling Oxfordshire countryside | Registered: Feb 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and
That's interesting. I was under the impression that one could only apply for the faculty once and, if it were turned down, that was it. Slightly less scary now, perhaps.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I kind of half know where he may be coming from I think?
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and before I knew it I was off to BAP faster than I could imagine due to several factors I won't bore you with.
I wasn't reccommended - got highly commended on about 6 of the criteria but they felt I was still called to be a Reader (I wasn't and I knew that)
Went back 12 months later and got through no problem - difference was the second time I was very in your face on the paperwork and verbally and in my presentation about vocation and calling and actually to be fair I think I owned it more. I think the first time my priest, my Bishop, DDO etc knew it was there but I was still in shock at getting the faculty. Second time it was mine - to the point I cried in the vocations interview (and I am NOT a person who does that in public)
I think what I am trying to say in a long winded way is that you have to be very overt about your feelings - indeed even a little OTT
It's true there's no point leaving the selectors guessing what your feelings are about being an ordained minister. Those have to be articulated clearly.
OTOH, many people are skilled at sounding like the 'right' person, when they're not necessarily the right person. I think selectors must have a very tough job really; because they have to sort out what they hear, from what they have discerned about that person.
The onus is also on them, to a large extent, to be skilful enough to interview the candidate so as to get a true picture of that person's heart and faith; rather than simply to elicit the 'right' answers.
But as even selectors are human ( ) there are times when candidate do need to be quite explicit and unambiguous about why they think they ought to be recommended for training.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Laxton's Superba
Shipmate
# 228
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Posted
Bumping this again...
Am becomingly increasingly dissatisfied by the mega-church's non-Eucharistic services. I know this says a lot about me and the differences in churchmanship, but I find the services pretty pointless. The church leaders seem to be getting round the canon law about celebrating the eucharist at least once per Sunday in the same way that the don't bother with any eucharistic vestments (unless you count a clerical shirt) and I wonder why they want to call themselves Anglican. They don't operate any particularly parish-specific work that I can see, they have a gathered congregation from all over the county. It's an interesting experience but coupled with a potential ordinands' meeting where the discussion was pretty much taken over by men from an evangelical background, I am missing the breadth of the C of E. Have spoken to DDO about this as I found it rather discouraging, and he was very helpful.
I am currently looking at the first three criteria for selection for my next discussion with the DDO.
Prayers for all others on the discernment road, especially matthew_dixon
[ 26. September 2011, 18:59: Message edited by: Laxton's Superba ]
Posts: 187 | From: I wish I knew | Registered: May 2001
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Bagpuss:
I needed a faculty which I didn't get - fast forward 12 years and ended up getting one and
That's interesting. I was under the impression that one could only apply for the faculty once and, if it were turned down, that was it. Slightly less scary now, perhaps.
Thurible
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when I applied for my first faculty. Bishop was about to retire and was putting his foot down about how many divorcees were going through.
I just got told you know where the vocations adviser is afterwards and no mention was ever made of whether that was it etc.
When I asked the DDO many years later - new DDO, new bishop, me in new parish etc he hadn't got a clue if you could reapply or not. Obviously I could - I think it was down to the fact that it was a new bishop, also that several years had passed and by then I had been marreid to second husband for 18 years (first husband for less than 2!) so they kind of had to acknowledge he wasn't just a passing fancy lol
What do you mean by slightly less scary now? Is that place you're in then?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Mrs Thurible was briefly married before she was baptised and so I would need to apply for a faculty, yes. The DDO has made it out to be the most heinous process and one that can only be gone through once (so, in the unlikely event that a faculty wasn't granted, that would be that).
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
'faculty'??? Please explain for the few of us who are non-Anglicans. The way it's being used is not the way that suggests academia-type faculty, so what is it you're all on about?
Yours,
puzzled in Presbyland
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Depending on circumstances 'faculty' is basically authoritative permission to do something.
Eg, divorced ordinands - or ordinands married to divorcees - usually need a 'faculty' from the Archbishop of their province to become an ordained minister. Whether it's granted or not, I suppose, is down to what the circs are.
As yet, I haven't come across anyone, that I know of, in this position who's been denied one, though I'm sure it must have happened. It seems from what Thurible's experience is some dioceses must make a bigger deal of it than others.
Within parish life a faculty is permission to the Parochial Church Council, from the Diocesan Advisory Council/Chancellor, to put pews in/take pews out, erect a notice board, re-order a church's furniture, re-tar the car-park, put toilets in, remove an ancient chalice from use, sneeze loudly etc etc etc etc etc.
It is truly the mother of all 'F' words.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Should anyone who is divorced or married to someone who was divorced feel a call to the ordained ministry in the Church of England, then a Bishops Repressentative ( each diocese has one) is required to interview the prospective candidate.
To say that this chat is intrusive...would be seriously underplaying the scope of the discussion. It all centres round a form ( Canon 4) and the questions that are to be answered.
In addition, other people are contacted to verify the facts given.
(imho, prayer should be offered afterwards, it's a damnable process)
It's loosly termed 'having to get a faculty' in the UK and not to be confused with the faculty process required to do repairs on our church buildings.
My understanding of this process for divorced people, is that it's to ensure that the church is not caught up in any potential scandal further down the track. For the minister, or for the church as a whole.
A clever person than I can maybe find and link the helpful place then we can all read about this fascinating part of our vocation process.
( emotive much~ yup)
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Bagpuss
Magical saggy cloth cat
# 2925
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Posted
What they all said!
I went through 2 processes - the frst one was hell on earth - interrogation by priest I had never met who insisted he could only see us on our wedding anniversary (tactful or what!) references not taken up etc etc - basically it was a pastoral car crash - the Bishop (I have now) thought about showing me the follow up letter but decided against it - thank God for his pastoral sensitivity.
The second experience was fantastic,very sensitively done, amazing priest, Bishop was fab and I would even say he bent over backwards to make sure I got my C4. He advised sacrament of reconciliation afterwards and he was right - it was definitley needed and if I am being truthful was the fnal part of the healing process from the mess that the first process had made.
I love my Bishop ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
As all above have said. What is more once you have a Faculty all future paperwork for the C of E asks you to say whether you have been granted one or not - so each church you go to knows your situation.
My own was dealt with sensitively by the interviewer but the follow up had problems- now thankfully blurring into obscurity! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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