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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
YMMV, of course, but in more than 50 years as an Anglican communicant, and in many parishes and cathedrals both here in the USA and the UK, I have NEVER seen this:

'Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.'

Though I am sure that it is done in some places. Anglicans, in my experience, remain surprisingly 'insular' (sorry about the incipient pun) and tend to assume that what is done in one's home parish is universal practice.


In a friend's Episcopal parish in the southern US, this is the practice. I had not heard of it until she told me about it ten years ago.
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keibat
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georgiaboy wrote:
quote:
'Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.'
and various Shipmates have responded with varying degrees of confirmation and dismissal. Having lived for many years as an Anglican in a Nordic Lutheran environment, I was used to their convention of putting a hand on the opposite shoulder to request a blessing rather than communion. It works well: it's very clear, and doesn't depend on having had one's wits about one to pick up the service booklet and take it with. On relocating to England a few years ago, I then encountered the booklet practice, and can confirm that it is today used in many C-of-E churches.
On the other hand, it was in the Anglican Diocese in Europe, where congregations characteristically attract a rather ecumenical gathering of worshipers from many different Christian traditions, that I became familiar with the practice of explicitly stating, often both in print in the service booklet and also spoken, that "All baptized Christians are welcome to receive communion", sometimes with the tactful addition: "subject to their discretion" or something similar. In my own experience it was usually only the Orthodox who would systematically refrain.

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Galilit
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And the Dutch Reformed.

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georgiaboy
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I've not seen this addressed here before. If it has been, my apologies.

I have observed many (not all) Hispanic and some Anglo RCs and Anglicans who, when making the sign of the cross, finish by kissing their right thumb. I've not asked any of them about this, because it would seem sort of a personal question, but I've wondered.

Any explanation(s), ideas?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have observed many (not all) Hispanic and some Anglo RCs and Anglicans who, when making the sign of the cross, finish by kissing their right thumb. I've not asked any of them about this, because it would seem sort of a personal question, but I've wondered.

I think they're forming a cross with their thumb and forefinger, so they're kissing the Cross.

Someone called Ken on a Roman Catholic forum I found explained it:

My wife who is from the Philippines does this. It is because they make a cross with their thumb and index finger and make the sign of the cross with their thumb and index finger crossed, like a cross. After touching their right shoulder they then kiss the "cross" made by their thumb and forefinger. This is the identical practice when praying the rosary and making the sign of the cross with the crucifix and then kissing the crucifix.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have observed many (not all) Hispanic and some Anglo RCs and Anglicans who, when making the sign of the cross, finish by kissing their right thumb. I've not asked any of them about this, because it would seem sort of a personal question, but I've wondered.

I think they're forming a cross with their thumb and forefinger, so they're kissing the Cross.

Someone called Ken on a Roman Catholic forum I found explained it:

My wife who is from the Philippines does this. It is because they make a cross with their thumb and index finger and make the sign of the cross with their thumb and index finger crossed, like a cross. After touching their right shoulder they then kiss the "cross" made by their thumb and forefinger. This is the identical practice when praying the rosary and making the sign of the cross with the crucifix and then kissing the crucifix.

Oh thanks, now I know what I'm doing.
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georgiaboy
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I have observed many (not all) Hispanic and some Anglo RCs and Anglicans who, when making the sign of the cross, finish by kissing their right thumb. I've not asked any of them about this, because it would seem sort of a personal question, but I've wondered.

I think they're forming a cross with their thumb and forefinger, so they're kissing the Cross.

Someone called Ken on a Roman Catholic forum I found explained it:

My wife who is from the Philippines does this. It is because they make a cross with their thumb and index finger and make the sign of the cross with their thumb and index finger crossed, like a cross. After touching their right shoulder they then kiss the "cross" made by their thumb and forefinger. This is the identical practice when praying the rosary and making the sign of the cross with the crucifix and then kissing the crucifix.

Thanks. I had some vague memory that it was somehow related to Rosary devotions.

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churchgeek

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I was under the impression that, generally, in the Episcopal Church, at a funeral, if ashes are present, we don't put a photo of the deceased with the ashes. I feel like that's akin to an open casket. Was I imagining this?

My understanding is that the theology behind the closed casket covered in a pall is that all are equal before God in death, and what you look like and how much you could spend on a casket are not important at that point. Similarly, urns are covered with a pall, because whether they're fancy or a plastic box from the crematorium is also irrelevant. Doesn't placing a framed photo or three near the ashes undo that?

If photos are placed by ashes, are they ever also placed by caskets?

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Enoch
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I don't think I've ever been to a funeral at which the deceased's ashes were present in the church. Cremation constitutes committal. So retrieving the ashes and displaying them at a memorial service would be theologically much the same as digging the person up again.

If either the burial or cremation have already taken place, the service is referred to as a memorial service. It's not at all unusual where someone has had some sort of role in the community for the family to have their own funeral first, and a memorial for more public mourners to take place sometime subsequently.

The coffin being open at a funeral is as good as unknown here.

Palls are a bit unusual. I once heard an undertaker reply to the suggestion of a pall as 'very London'. It is not unusual to put other things on top of the coffin during the service, flowers, wreaths, and sometimes the deceased's Bible. They don't get buried or burnt by the way.

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Brenda Clough
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In the US it's very common to have the urn at the memorial service. Sometimes covered with a pall (we use one of the veils for this) and sometimes not. I haven't seen the photo by the urn/on the coffin here, but very often now there is either a photo display or a video montage of the deceased during life. These are almost always assembled by the family and are greatly helpful for the mourners; you can see the deceased in the context of her life. This is usually set up out in the narthex or downstairs in the fellowship hall, so that people can look at it after the service.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is quite common now in RC parishes in this country for children who have not yet made their First Communion to come up with parents and friends to receive a blessing.

As a practical matter, small children need to come to the altar with their communicant parents / caregivers, because you can't leave them by themselves in a pew. And once the kid is there, it seems a bit rude to just ignore them.
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In the US it's very common to have the urn at the memorial service.

Technically, as Enoch suggests, if the cremated remains are present, it’s a funeral, not a memorial service. Remains = funeral; no remains = memorial service. At least that’s the distinction I was always taught.

One thing I have learned on the Ship is that British and American cremation practices are very different. There is no committal or service of any kind at the crematory in the States, nor is anyone likely to be present for the cremation other than those doing it. No family, no clergy. It’s no different from the mortician preparing the body and putting it in a coffin for the service; the cremation folks cremate the body and put the ashes in an urn, which is then turned over to the family. The commital happens wherever the ashes are to be finally buried or placed—a columbarium, a scattering garden, etc.

So the comparison that Enoch makes—that having the cremated remains at the funeral is akin to digging up a buried body and bringing it back to the church—only translates here if the cremated remains have already been buried or placed in a columbarium or the like.

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Pigwidgeon

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The majority of funerals/memorial services at my church are for cremations, and more often than not the ashes are present. We have a columbarium in our garden, so the ashes are often placed in that following the service (sometimes the whole congregation attends, sometimes just family). During the service the urn with the ashes is placed in an "ossuary" similar to this one. A bouquet is often placed at the base. Photographs (and sometimes other memorabilia) are often displayed in the narthex and/or the parish hall if a reception follows there.

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churchgeek

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Interesting point about cremation as committal. What Nick Tamen says is definitely true in the US. Interestingly, though, the state of Michigan (at least; other states may vary) considers cremation to be final disposal of a body, so that cremains may be moved around without any legal issues (which, of course, makes sense). But it seems odd for the Church to consider cremation a committal, since the ashes will then be taken and placed somewhere. I know the Catholic Church frowns upon keeping your loved one's ashes on your mantle or wherever...and I agree completely. It's important to let go! So placing the urn in a columbarium in a church or elsewhere, or scattering the ashes somewhere - that's more of a committal in the sense that from there, you're not moving the ashes around anymore, and you're certainly not hanging on to them.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
No family, no clergy. It’s no different from the mortician preparing the body and putting it in a coffin for the service;

Not necessarily the best comparison as, at least around here, the "coffining" is attended by (traditionally male) family members and with the minister present. If the death takes place away then the minister or elders will meet the coffin at the ferry and escort it to the church (or the home if the funeral is to be held there, as it sometimes is).
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
No family, no clergy. It’s no different from the mortician preparing the body and putting it in a coffin for the service;

Not necessarily the best comparison as, at least around here, the "coffining" is attended by (traditionally male) family members and with the minister present. If the death takes place away then the minister or elders will meet the coffin at the ferry and escort it to the church (or the home if the funeral is to be held there, as it sometimes is).
Ah, well, there you go. That’s different here as well.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
American cremation practices are very different. There is no committal or service of any kind at the crematory in the States, nor is anyone likely to be present for the cremation other than those doing it. No family, no clergy.

Not universally true. When my nephew died, the family attended the cremation. Brief viewing beforehand. We were told that we could stay as long as we wanted to while the actual cremation took place.

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Enoch
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It seems even the words are different here.

- The place where cremation happens is a crematorium here, often abbreviated to crem. We don't use the word 'crematory'.

- An ossuary is a place where bones alone are stored, a practice which is as good as unknown now, but was sometimes done in the Middle Ages. I think it is sometimes the practice on the continent to dig up the body again after about five years when the flesh has all rotted away, wash the bones and sore them in an ossuary or bone-house. Once buried, English law is very reluctant indeed to allow a body to be dug up again.

- A columbarium would be a fancy Latin word for a dovecote.

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Jengie jon

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The fact that ossuary has an alternative term in English as 'Charnel House' may lead in part to the belief they did not exist in England. They did as can be seen from this report in the Telegraph and this description of what is claimed to be Britains best preserved. They fell out of use in Victorian times irc when cities really began to expand quickly and modern funeral practices such as out of town cemetries were adopted.

Jengie

[ 24. November 2017, 20:46: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Nick Tamen

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I hear both crematory and crematorium here, with the frequency bring heavily slanted to crematorium. I usually say crematorium; I didn’t realize I’d used crematory until after the edit window closed. Really don’t know why it’s what I typed.

As for columbarium (which is indeed derived from the resemblance to a dovecote), what is a place for keeping urns containing cremated remains called there?

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gee D
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It is called a columbarium here, and the Sydney Anglican diocese has very strict rules about construction of them on church property. OTOH, they are common at crematoriums (crematoria would not be used here) for the obvious reason that they make lots of money for the owners.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I hear both crematory and crematorium here, with the frequency bring heavily slanted to crematorium. I usually say crematorium; I didn’t realize I’d used crematory until after the edit window closed. Really don’t know why it’s what I typed.

As for columbarium (which is indeed derived from the resemblance to a dovecote), what is a place for keeping urns containing cremated remains called there?

Although undertakers and others give back ashes in urns, we don't usually keep them permanently in them. Churches generally insist that ashes should be buried, either in small wooden mini-coffins or poured into the ground. A small plaque can then go over the spot. They look rather like Moravian gravestones. A lot of people would rather scatter ashes, and frequently do, but both churches and public officials tend to discourage this.

Remember that one big difference between Britain and the places that many shipmates live, is that most of the time, the earth here is wet and muddy, not dry and hard.

There's a widespread belief that ashes are good for the soil, by analogy of the way we use bone meal as fertiliser. However, this is a delusion. Bone meal is produced by grinding up animal bones. When a person is cremated, all the nutrients have gone up the chimney.

I've heard there's a move beginning to develop that cremation isn't as environmentally better than burial as people have tended to assume. Yes, it takes up less space, but burial puts the nutrients back in the soil and cremation doesn't. Furthermore the burning consumes quite a lot of energy. And though you obviously can't grow crops on a graveyard, within my lifetime I've seen sheep put to graze in one.

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Brenda Clough
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Technically a crematorium is the entire facility -- the building, the office, the coffin reception area, etc. The actual oven-like object that does the burning is called the cremator.

A good example of a relatively modern ossuary is the catacombs in Paris. These date back to the 19th century and were a solution to the overcrowded graveyards of Paris. For years work crews dug up the bones and stacked them, neatly, down in the tunnels under the Left Bank. They kept them organized and labeled by church, and now (after city renovations and various wars) the labels may be the only evidence of a church and its location.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although undertakers and others give back ashes in urns, we don't usually keep them permanently in them. Churches generally insist that ashes should be buried, either in small wooden mini-coffins or poured into the ground. A small plaque can then go over the spot. They look rather like Moravian gravestones. A lot of people would rather scatter ashes, and frequently do, but both churches and public officials tend to discourage this.

Both of those things (burial and scattering) happen here, but many, many churches have columbariums for the placement of ashes. I know of some where the urns are the decorative kind that come from the funeral home, but most seem to be utilitarian, cylindrical “urns” made to fit securely in the niches of the columbariums.

Sometimes there will be a “scattering garden” near the columbarium; I know some churches that only have scattering gardens, with a wall where names can be mounted or a book in the church with names recorded. An increasing number of non-church related cemeteries also have columbariums and/or scattering gardens. .

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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churchgeek

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This is all so fascinating! I always wondered why "columbarium" sounded like a reference to doves.

In my experience in the US (in Metro Detroit and in San Francisco), the crematorium would send the ashes in a plastic box inside a velvet bag - although I've also been shown a fancy box that the urn was sent in. The churches I've worked at which had columbariums would then transfer the ashes into a box that was sized for their niches - in one case, a metal box, and in the other, a plastic box. (We're not fancy.)

The church I worked at in San Francisco had a columbarium that was sometimes sought out because San Francisco doesn't allow graves of any kind, for the most part, within the city - it's a waste of real estate. (OK, I'm putting that really cynically - the fact is the city is only 49 square miles, bounded by water on 3 sides, and hilly. And, yes, the real estate value is insanely high.) At some point in its history, all the graves were dug up and the bodies moved south to a town called Colma, which now is known for having more dead residents than living. There's still a military graveyard in SF, and some columbariums here and there.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Brenda Clough
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The great argument against scattering is the loss of a memorial, and of a place for the family to come and pay their respects. My parents wanted to be scattered under the Golden Gate Bridge; I am not going to go back there to memorialize them. (Traffic makes it impossible.)
The further argument against scattering in some random location (the park etc.) is that nobody knows what the future of that place will be. If they bulldoze it and erect a restaurant would that be OK?
Scattering in a church property gets you around those problems; with luck the church will always be there, and the family can always go to the church to say a prayer or something.
The number of very creative things that can be done with ashes is large, and Americans have done (if not invented) them all.

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Bishops Finger
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The question of What To Do With Ashes is still exercising us at Our Place (we need to do something with the mortal remains of our late Churchwarden, and scattering is verboten - forbidden - by our Archdeacon, and, AFAIK, by the rules of the church to which we belong).

Having recently cleared some considerable space in our basement by replacing two huge old gas boilers by a sleek modern energy-efficient version, I rather like the idea of a subterranean columbarium...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The coffin being open at a funeral is as good as unknown here.

Common for Afro-Caribbean funerals.
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Bishops Finger
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Now that I didn't know.

If I get asked to conduct such a service, I won't be discombobulated (though, frankly, I've seen enough corpses not to be spooked thereby under any circumstances).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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The University of Pittsburgh (in Pennsylvania) runs
the Allegheny Observatory, erected in Edwardian times by plutocrats who had a yen for science. Although it is not at all usual for an astronomical facility, a couple of the directors of the place has their ashes installed in the basement, in the foundation that supports the main telescope. There's a little columbarium down there with plaques and names.

So retrofitting your building with a couple niches shouldn't be such a much.

[ 26. November 2017, 17:31: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Galilit
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Has anybody actually been to St Mark's Compline in Seattle? Or listening to the podcast regularly?
I happened upon it on the interwebz a while ago, read around a bit, and just getting back to it again.

That means I listened to one last night - but all new Spiritual Practices have a beginning and a first time! I used to listen to the streamed one from Community of St Mary the Virgin, Wantage for ages but of course that is now "off".

It's interestingly different from the British "tradition" and I am wondering if I will get used to the accents reasonably quickly. Also, it seems to be different every time - which I thought Compline as the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Has anybody actually been to St Mark's Compline in Seattle? Or listening to the podcast regularly?
I happened upon it on the interwebz a while ago, read around a bit, and just getting back to it again.

That means I listened to one last night - but all new Spiritual Practices have a beginning and a first time! I used to listen to the streamed one from Community of St Mary the Virgin, Wantage for ages but of course that is now "off".

It's interestingly different from the British "tradition" and I am wondering if I will get used to the accents reasonably quickly. Also, it seems to be different every time - which I thought Compline as the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow

I've never attended but have often listened. My impression is that the regular congregation for Compline is young, diverse, and otherwise unchurched. The changing elements in the service from week to week (psalms, "orison," etc.) may inject something of the day and/or season, where a strictly monastic Compline would eschew all variation. Might help make the ensemble more attractive to good singers, as well, if it's not the same every week.
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churchgeek

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The coffin being open at a funeral is as good as unknown here.

Common for Afro-Caribbean funerals.
I grew up with that as a norm. It's done in US funeral homes, if the service is held there, and it's done in some of the less-catholic churches. It wasn't until I became an Episcopalian, and then later at my Catholic grandmother's funeral, that I witnessed and learned of the tradition of closing the coffin before the service begins. Now it's kind of shocking to me if I go to a service where the coffin is open!

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Galilit
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The changing elements in the service from week to week (psalms, "orison," etc.) may inject something of the day and/or season, where a strictly monastic Compline would eschew all variation. Might help make the ensemble more attractive to good singers, as well, if it's not the same every week.

They also have tiny intercessions where people are mentioned by (first) name: last night someone who'd died called "John" and a woman who was ill.

I assume the format has changed and developed over the decades so that now it is the unique service it is today ... part Compline, part Choral Evensong, part concert, part General Public Liturgy ... well done them as it obviously meets a variety of needs to a wide variety of people in Seattle and they reckon another 10 000 listen on line

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Parents both stipulate in their wills they are to be scattered in the river Wharfe at Bolton Abbey, which trumps any church rules on the subject. Mum's already there, Dad will follow.

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Jengie jon

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But not these people

Jengie

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Parents both stipulate in their wills they are to be scattered in the river Wharfe at Bolton Abbey, which trumps any church rules on the subject. Mum's already there, Dad will follow.

I assume by now that Mum is well into the North Sea (God rest her soul)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Parents both stipulate in their wills they are to be scattered in the river Wharfe at Bolton Abbey, which trumps any church rules on the subject. Mum's already there, Dad will follow.

I assume by now that Mum is well into the North Sea (God rest her soul)
Well, yes. But you know what I mean.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The coffin being open at a funeral is as good as unknown here.

Common for Afro-Caribbean funerals.
I grew up with that as a norm.
Same here. I easily served at over 100 funerals in my Anglican childhood and teenage years. I can think of two where the coffin was closed; in both cases the deceased had died in an RTA so there was an understandable reason to have the coffin closed.

In my Orthodox experience in adulthood, similarly, all funerals have been open coffin.

It seems strange to me now when I go to a funeral and coffin is closed.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Spike

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# 36

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Fact of the day: It's not allowed to have an open coffin at a service in a crematorium chapel.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Is that a local authority rule, Spike?

And does the C of E (or any other denomination)allow an open coffin at a church funeral service?

If so, it must then have to be discreetly closed before burial (whether in churchyard or other cemetery) or cremation...

IJ

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Roman Cataholic
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# 18736

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It's fine in the Roman Catholic tradition
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Spike

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# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is that a local authority rule, Spike?


I'm not sure. We were told this by a funeral director when I did my funeral training.

ETA: Come to think of it, I don't think it's a local authority thing. The course I did was diocesan wide which covers quite a lot of local authorities. Also, we have both local authority and private crems in the diocese, so I think it must be a national thing.
quote:

And does the C of E (or any other denomination)allow an open coffin at a church funeral service?


Yes, I've seen it quite a lot with African and Afro Carribean funerals.

[ 29. November 2017, 21:33: Message edited by: Spike ]

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Bishops Finger
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OK, so does the closing of the coffin take place somewhere in the church (or sacristy), prior to the burial in the churchyard, or the transport to cemetery or crematorium?

I just have this silly mental picture of discreet hammering echoing around the building, whilst the mourners await the next stage in the proceedings... [Paranoid]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
It's fine in the Roman Catholic tradition

It's a possibility but I'm not sure. I've never come across a funeral mass with an open casket in the U.S. or Mexico. Yes at vigils, wakes and rosaries but those are distinct from the actual funeral mass held in the parish church. Maybe funeral masses with an open casket are held or have been held in other places places and/or at other times but, generally speaking, it's not common practice where I have lived. It is something I would have to investigate.

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we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
OK, so does the closing of the coffin take place somewhere in the church (or sacristy), prior to the burial in the churchyard, or the transport to cemetery or crematorium?

I just have this silly mental picture of discreet hammering echoing around the building, whilst the mourners await the next stage in the proceedings... [Paranoid]

IJ

The lid goes back on after the commendation and before the body is taken out of church. The funeral director usually has a small screwdriver in his/her pocket and is (usually) very discreet

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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As I said, it was a silly mental picture.

My imagination-o-meter clearly needs recalibrating, as I'm sure all funeral directors are discreet in these matters (they get paid enough!).

[Biased]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Roman Cataholic
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# 18736

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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
It's fine in the Roman Catholic tradition

It's a possibility but I'm not sure. I've never come across a funeral mass with an open casket in the U.S. or Mexico. Yes at vigils, wakes and rosaries but those are distinct from the actual funeral mass held in the parish church. Maybe funeral masses with an open casket are held or have been held in other places places and/or at other times but, generally speaking, it's not common practice where I have lived. It is something I would have to investigate.
I'm not really debating. It's fine in the Catholic tradition and it happens.
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Pancho
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# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by Roman Cataholic:
I'm not really debating. It's fine in the Catholic tradition and it happens.

I didn't intend to start a debate and I acknowledged it was possible at different times and places. However, I think it's important to not mislead people. I observed that it's not something that I've encountered as a fairly well informed, life-long Catholic.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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According to the Episcopal (U.S.A.) Book of Common Prayer:
quote:
The coffin is to be closed before the service, and it remains closed thereafter. It is appropriate that it be covered with a pall or other suitable covering.


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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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