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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A hard and narrow path to tread. Perhaps there's a priest in a neighbouring parish who could mentor?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed, and perhaps the church's Sacristan could help, too.
What is refreshing to know is the fact that the priest is willing to admit ignorance, and to ask for advice.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
St. Michael's Croydon is a church I know and I go there from time to time, but I wasn't there Sunday just gone.
The two processional crosses make sense, if each is used in a separate procession - one for the choir and one for the sanctuary party. As already indicated, the incense may or may not have been blessed in the sacristy beforehand. If beforehand, the thurible would be swung on the way in. If not until the introit, then the thurible would not be swung on the way in.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
That is a coincidence venbede. I think you are enjoying a bit of poetic license in considering west Croydon as being in the north downs !
West Croydon is on the plain, but Croydon itself is on the edge of the North Downs and the crest is only a mile away. By the time you get to South Croydon and its golf courses (a spectacular contrast to West Croydon) the chalk is very much in evidence and you are on the slopes of the Downs.
I was being deliberately naughty in describing Croydon as "an historic market town nestling in a fold of the North Downs". It is more or less an accurate description, but totally misleading, as you notice.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
In the days* when the 1662 BCP Communion Service was pretty well ubiquitous, was it the usual practice to omit the Gloria in Lent and Advent?
The Church Of My Yoof used 1662 for the 8am Sunday service, and also after Matins (1st Sunday), and Evensong (3rd Sunday), but I can't recall what our custom was in those seasons.
(* Those dear, dead days, beyond recall...... ).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
In the days* when the 1662 BCP Communion Service was pretty well ubiquitous, was it the usual practice to omit the Gloria in Lent and Advent?
The Church Of My Yoof used 1662 for the 8am Sunday service, and also after Matins (1st Sunday), and Evensong (3rd Sunday), but I can't recall what our custom was in those seasons.
(* Those dear, dead days, beyond recall...... ).
Those strictly observing all the rubrics would include the Gloria in excelsis at every Holy Communion service.
To add to whatever is posted presently on this, here's a previous discussion on the topic. Thought I'd share it because it came up for me in a Google search.
[ 01. April 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, I thought this vital question (!) may have arisen before..... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Consensus seems to be to include the Gloria as per the rubrics, and I guess that's what we did way back when.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
If Miss Amanda were to hear the Gloria done during Advent or Lent, you'd have to revive her with smelling salts.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Ah yes, but here in this Realm of England, whence Ye Boke Of Commone Prayere doth come, ye Rubricks are followed as Our Blessed Lord intended.
Such Papistical Tendencies are to be forsworn!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
But I'm told that the Baby Jesus and his Blessed Mother have been known to weep profusely over more than one "Rubrick."
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
But not over ye Rubricks prescribed by ye former Archbishop Cranmer, of Blessed Memory....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
It's easy to forget that the Roman Rite, despite being by far the predominant of the western rites, does not dictate the norms of others.
My own church uses a restored version of the Gallican Mass, during which the primary hymn sung between the Kyrie and the Collect is the Benedictus. The Gloria is just one of a number of seasonal and festal variations (used during Christmastide and the paschal season). The rite is no less Catholic or Orthodox for not following the Roman custom, and if Anglicans using the BCP are satisfied that their BCP rite is Catholic, then I see no reason why its rubrics ought to be disregarded in favour of those of another rite.
(Says an outsider, who is happy to be told to mind his own business.)
[ 02. April 2017, 16:45: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm trying to remember, and I may not be correct, what happened back in the days when all services were 1662.
In 1662 of course, the Gloria comes after Communion, not at the beginning of the service. There is nothing in the rubric about leaving it out at any season. I'm fairly sure that in most churches, it was therefore always used. I think it would have been regarded as an irregularity to omit it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Not so Enoch: I've never attended a church where the Gloria was said or sung during Lent and Advent: that goes from nose-bleed high to through the basement floor low.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
L'organist, I'm not talking about now. I'm trying to remember what was normal 50+ years ago, and also with some awareness of how people thought about rubrics in former times.
I've also checked two communion manuals I've inherited, one from the 1930s and one from the 1890s, and a BCP with notes where the king is William IV. None of them mentions anything about omitting the Gloria for part of the year.
I've also inherited a copy of the abortive 1928 book another relative was given at confirmation sometime around 1930. There, the alternative version of the Communion Service that was never authorised. There, the Gloria is in the same place at the end as in the BCP. It would have allowed the omission of the Gloria except on Sundays and Holy Days, but no mention of its being permissible to omit it in any season.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I too was talking about time back to the late 1950s!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm trying to remember, and I may not be correct, what happened back in the days when all services were 1662.
In 1662 of course, the Gloria comes after Communion, not at the beginning of the service. There is nothing in the rubric about leaving it out at any season. I'm fairly sure that in most churches, it was therefore always used. I think it would have been regarded as an irregularity to omit it.
The Canadian BCP also features the Gloria after the Communion (note that the canon is much longer than the 1662 as it includes an epiclesis) and if my memory serves me well, the Lenten omission of the Gloria only started rolling in eastern Ontario parishes from the mid-1970s on. John Holding might have his own impressions.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Without hard documentary evidence the only things any of us can rely on are hazy memories and varying practice from parish to parish.
My early experience of the BCP eucharist was in a middle-of-the-road village parish with a vicar of catholic tendencies. The liturgy was straight from the book with a couple of exceptions I remember. One was always to omit the ten commandments in favour of the threefold Kyrie (in English); the other was to omit the Gloria in Advent, Lent and ferias (also the creed on the latter) - in line with the Kalendar published by Knott of English Missal fame. And the whole service was topped and tailed with the Preparation of priest and server (mainly psalm 43), and the Last Gospel (John 1.1-14). This was in the early 1960s.
I have little experience of other parishes' traditions at that time, but I have an inkling that evangelicals then would be more likely to obey the rubrics and never omit Creed and Gloria on any occasion.
When the Gloria is at the end of the service ŕ la 1662, it does seem a bit pedantic to follow the rules that apply to another rite altogether to omit it, when it serves as a thanksgiving for the sacrament just received. But for those of us who have become acclimatised to the more traditional structure of the rite, it does seem odd to include it in the penitential seasons. When I regularly celebrated 1662 I have to admit I omitted the Gloria at those times.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Further to what Augustine wrote, I'm reasonably sure that until well on in the 1970s when adventurous parishes deserted the BCP in large numbers for more contemporary rites, the Gloria would never have been omitted in any season, at least in Canada. Except in the highest and most lofty AC parishes, of which there may have been a dozen in all of Canada. In general terms, the kind of reasoning that omits the Gloria in Lent is part of liturgical reform and the use of contemporary language, in Canada. Here, if you use the BCP (again, except in the highest of parishes) you do so as it is written.
My memory is somewhat hazy, but I rather think that Sunday eucharist at Christ CHurch, Oxford, in the early 70s, invariably included the Gloria (after the Kyrie, though, not at the end of the service). As the custom was to sing the service to a fully composed setting -- at that time, usually Palestrina or Byrd or one of that ilk, I think for musical reasons if no others, the Gloria would not have been omitted.
John
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
At our Lent Group this afternoon someone commented that where she worshiped during WW2 the Te Deum was replaced at Matins by Psalm 91. We wondered whether this was local custom, diocesan instruction (Guilford diocese) or widespread.
Has anyone else ever heard of this?
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
At our Lent Group this afternoon someone commented that where she worshiped during WW2 the Te Deum was replaced at Matins by Psalm 91. We wondered whether this was local custom, diocesan instruction (Guilford diocese) or widespread.
Has anyone else ever heard of this?
The Proposed Book of 1928 allows Ps. 51 to replace Te Deum. Might she have misremembered it as 91?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps, but Psalm 91 is a prayer for protection, most apposite in time of war if you think you're the side being aggressed! OTOH, the deeply penitential Psalm 51 might be more appropriate if you think your side is in the wrong....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Perhaps, but Psalm 91 is a prayer for protection, most apposite in time of war if you think you're the side being aggressed! OTOH, the deeply penitential Psalm 51 might be more appropriate if you think your side is in the wrong....
Good points. Ps. 91 may have been an extraordinary measure, even if it isn't an option provided in the rubrics.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
There is a whole movement in the USA around Psalm 91 for soldiers: bandana's in all different colours and camouflages, bracelets, dog tags and keyrings
A woman named Jill Boyce had a dream (in 2002)and a vision of Psalm 91 on a bandana and as they say the rest is history.
I was in chemo in 2009-10 and got some of the bandana's and a pewter bracelet that I still wear (engraved with Ps 91:5)
Though personally I think Psalm 144 is a better fit for active soldiers. I prayed it daily in a wee Office-y thingy that I wrote when my elder son was doing his compulsory army service.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
OK folks, I could do with some help.
How do I remove olive oil, candle wax and soot from the same piece of altar linen?
I can melt the wax off, no problem, but I still need to shift the soot and also olive oil from the same bit of fabric.....
Solvent of some sort for the oil, then soak the whole thing in stain remover?
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Solvent of some sort for the oil, then soak the whole thing in stain remover?
My first thought was "Dawn cuts the grease." It's the washing-up liquid famous for working well for cleaning birds covered with thick oil after a tanker ship runs aground. It's also considered a mild detergent so less likely to damage the fabric than some other things. Anyway, that might be good for "breaking up" the oil and helping wash it away. Then probably a stain removing substance like Borax or Oxy-Clean.
(I have no vested interest in any of these brands.)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Treat the olive oil as for wax: brown paper and a hot iron. Anything that remains will then disappear if you soak in a solution of soda crystals.
If after all that some of the soot remains its a simple case for bleach.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Go lightly with the bleach -- it can eat right through. Dilute it, and go several rounds rather than try to take the stain out in one attempt.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I can't help feeling that perhaps the time has come for some new linen to be called for....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Oh we've probably got a spare or two about the place, but it's worth trying to clean it up.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed - it's good stewardship!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Hello folks. I'm trying my luck here, crowd-sourcing for resource. If any one has a copy of the LTP Workbook for Lectors (US Edition). Would you kindly send a picture of the 2 pages reading of Baruch at the Easter Vigil? Thank you.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Why can't you just download and print off the readings from Bible Gateway or something?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Yes. Bible Gateway has the New American Bible (Revised Version) which is, I think, the relevant translation. The Lectionary reading from Baruch is Baruch 3:9-15,32; 4.1-4. So at least you'd be able to get the text of the reading, although not the notes and typographical help for lectors that the Workbook provides.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Hello folks. I'm trying my luck here, crowd-sourcing for resource. If any one has a copy of the LTP Workbook for Lectors (US Edition). Would you kindly send a picture of the 2 pages reading of Baruch at the Easter Vigil? Thank you.
Do you just need the reading or do you need the notes and other help from the workbook as well?
If it's just the reading that you need, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishop has a page with the daily readings from Mass. The ones for the Easter Vigil can be found here:
Holy Saturday at the Easter Vigil
You can scroll down to Reading 6 for the reading from Baruch.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Thanks BF, Pancho and BrJames. Yes, I would like to have a look at the workbook's annotation and underlines. A very challenging text to proclaim.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Thanks BF, Pancho and BrJames. Yes, I would like to have a look at the workbook's annotation and underlines. A very challenging text to proclaim.
You're in luck. LTP has a preview of the book online and the preview includes the reading from the Baruch, but the print is tiny and you have to scroll more than have way down the sample to reach it.
Workbook for Lectors, Gospel Readers, and Proclaimers of the Word
[ 13. April 2017, 03:27: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Or you can type Baruch into the search field to get to it more quickly. Also there seems to be a possibility of enlarging the size of the preview.
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Thanks all,
I'm pleased to say that my linen has been dealt with as best can be with a combination of hot iron, washing up liquid and Vanish ™
Fortunately someone else said they'd deal with the purificators quite frankly buggered up by some other person washing/dusting (??) the altars with vinegar and bitter herbs. They weren't half a mess....
[ 14. April 2017, 21:28: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
I am almost seriously beginning to think about assembling/defining what you might loosely define as being a sacristan/server/general dogsbody's chemistry set....
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
All of a sudden....i'm washing the communion linen.
Can see me being here often from now on....many thanks for everything so far!
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Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
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Posted
So we just had our annual Chrism Mass last week, and I picked up the shiny new vial of freshly-consecrated anointing oil. (My denomination (or at least this strain of tradition within it) only uses one species of oil for all one's anointing needs, but that's another thread). Thing is, we still have oil left over from previous years.
Now obviously, this means I need to be finding more excuses to anoint people in order to use up this vial by Holy Week next year ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) , but how, if at all, does one go about disposing of old anointing oil?
Posts: 25 | From: The Cornfields | Registered: Aug 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Burn it.
Reverently, of course.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Electric?
Is Outrage!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Our church is ISO consecrated oil for anointing. If yours needs a home, pm me and I'll get you our mailing address. (I went and put the phrase into the search window at Ebay, just to see what would happen. OMG.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
We use the previous years oils at the heart of the New Fire on Easter morning, with a touch of <ahem> accelerant. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Burn it.
Reverently, of course.
IJ
Offically, supposed to be burned in sanctuary lamps - which is difficult if yours are electric.
Don't most people use those long-burning candles from Hayes and Finch?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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