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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The newly published MW report is definitely for this year of 2017 and not for a previous year and this only took place 48 hours ago!!! I am amazed and bewildered it was written, processed and edited so quickly; I would have needed more time!

Let it never be said that the Ship publishes stale news! [Yipee]

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The newly published MW report is definitely for this year of 2017 and not for a previous year and this only took place 48 hours ago!!! I am amazed and bewildered it was written, processed and edited so quickly; I would have needed more time!

Let it never be said that the Ship publishes stale news! [Yipee]
I am not suggesting that! But even so......!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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I'll take it as a feather in the reporter's cap for filing his report so timely, and as a feather in my church bonnet for editing and publishing it so quickly.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Sipech
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I think your record for one of mine was 2.5 hours from the time the report was submitted to the time it was published.

Albeit, that I was still doing my own editing on it on the Monday evening following the Sunday morning service.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The RC Bishop was not necessarily present at BOTH services, and he only featured at the non-Eucharistic one. So as far as I can see, there could have been no cause of possible confusion

But wasn't there Benediction during or aftrer the procession? There used to be in the years I went.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The RC Bishop was not necessarily present at BOTH services, and he only featured at the non-Eucharistic one. So as far as I can see, there could have been no cause of possible confusion

But wasn't there Benediction during or aftrer the procession? There used to be in the years I went.
This year, unlike previous years, Benediction was not included in the afternoon service, possibly because of this ecumenical aspect. Vespers & Benediction were scheduled for 18.00 hours in the Shrine Church; I could not stay, because I was governed by a chauffeur who did not wish to stay that long.

I can go on to make two other observations about the report; in...er...the other place, the MWer refers to - "a misogynistic comment from a priest in the pub after the service, where the tone of his voice implied an objection to women that was not based entirely on theology." I think I know who that said priest was; I know all about him; he was there and say no more!

The MWer touches on the vociferous protesters, without going into detail and he also says that one place interestingly the procession did not go to was the shrine church. Well, these protesters are militant protestant extremists of Iain Paisley ilk. In past years, the procession used to go past the shrine church, but it is all a question of how to combat these protesters. They make their base at the village pump and so the procession ceased to go that way, so that their fierce shouting does not conflict with the singing of the pilgrimage hymn and the recitation of the Rosary. If there is sufficient interest to consider these militant protestants in more detail, I can open a new thread on this, or another board.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The MWer touches on the vociferous protesters. . . . Well, these protesters are militant protestant extremists of Ian Paisley ilk. In past years, the procession used to go past the shrine church, but . . . they make their base at the village pump and so the procession ceased to go that way, so that their fierce shouting does not conflict with the singing of the pilgrimage hymn and the recitation of the Rosary.

It never fails to amaze me how some people apparently love to hate.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I'll take it as a feather in the reporter's cap for filing his report so timely, and as a feather in my church bonnet for editing and publishing it so quickly.

You and the reporter do indeed deserve a feather or more. Thank you.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Bishops Finger
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A separate thread might be interesting (in Hell?).

Who are these protesters, what do they want, and why do they bother (given the obvious success and attraction of Walsingham)?

O wait....that's what they don't like, maybe?

Here's a video from 2010, though it's not exactly high-quality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX-vq3bQqZE

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
A separate thread might be interesting (in Hell?).

Who are these protesters, what do they want, and why do they bother (given the obvious success and attraction of Walsingham)?

O wait....that's what they don't like, maybe?

Here's a video from 2010, though it's not exactly high-quality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX-vq3bQqZE

IJ

An interesting video about the militant protestant objectors at Walsingham. "No Son without the Mother!" - the priest doing that is Fr. Paul Williamson, Vicar of St. George's Hanworh, Middlesex and I am no stranger to his church. He is the one I think the MWer was referring to who made the outspoken misogynist remark, for he is a renowned campaigner against women's ordained ministry.

OK, I will go on to start a new thread abount the Walsingham objectors.

But before I do, I am not sure I agree with the MWer who said that the nun could not count to ten in leading the Luminous Mystries of the Rosary. I was using Rosary beads and my counting to ten always tallied with what was being rehearsed over the loud speaker.

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Triple Tiara

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# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
The perspective of my question was why there were so many different vestments worn and who would wear what. For example why did some have red stoles and some gold ? Why did some have gold chasubles and some blue ( if the blue ones were chasubles ) ?

There is quite a clever little organisational trick being used, which would not be obvious to the casual observer: those in red would have been the ones who ministered the chalice to communicants. I have that on good authority and it's really as simple as that.

White and gold are interchangeable as liturgical colours.

The blue cloaks are not vestments - probably best described as ceremonial garb perhaps.

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Bishops Finger
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Good to hear from you, TT, and thanks for the explanation. Sometimes, the simple answer is the right one.

IIRC, the blue cloaks are worn by the Guardians of the Shrine (presumably clerical and lay), no?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Good to hear from you, TT, and thanks for the explanation. Sometimes, the simple answer is the right one.

IIRC, the blue cloaks are worn by the Guardians of the Shrine (presumably clerical and lay), no?

IJ

I thought I said that earlier on in this thread, but you are quite correct - the blue cloaks are the wearers' insignia (clerical and lay) of the College of Guardians of the Shrine.
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Bishops Finger
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Thanks - I must have missed your earlier post.

Blue is, of course, the colour traditionally associated with Our Lady, but what is the 'correct' shade of blue (if any) for Eucharistic vestments? For use at Marian or OLW Masses, that is.

Our Place possesses a full set of High Mass vestments in a most gorgeous shade of kingfisher/azure blue, though they don't get used that often...the chasuble comes out for our monthly Walsingham Cell Mass, and IIRC we used the full set once when The Assumption fell on a Sunday (or we transferred it to the Sunday!). I think our late churchwarden ordered them from India (and paid for them himself, bless him), but I can't find a link.

We also have a lightweight pale blue chasuble, together with a cream chasuble which has nice blue fleur-de-lis and other Marian motifs embroidered thereupon.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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venbede
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I’m sure your blue vestments are lovely so go ahead and use them for any feast of Our Lady you like. But I am not aware of any historic or contemporary precedent for blue as a festive liturgical colour. It was the colour for Advent in the Sarum use and I gather popular for Advent in some American RC circles.

I remember as a teenage hearing an Orthodox monk explain that for the Orthodox blue was not associated with the Mother of God but rather red for blood, as she gave life to the Son of God.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It was the colour for Advent in the Sarum use and I gather popular for Advent in some American RC circles.

Not in RC circles. Purple/violet is the prescribed color for Advent in American RC churches; using blue instead is not permitted. Blue is, I believe, permitted for some Marian feasts.

Advent Blue—which from what I have seen can range from a medium, royal blue to a deep midnight blue—has become very common in Episcopal, Lutheran and Methodist churches, and is sometimes found in Presbyterian churches.

[ 03. June 2017, 20:15: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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venbede
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I got the idea of blue for Advent in RC circles from Ship of Fools. It is not official and I seem to remember that those mentioning it disapproved.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I got the idea of blue for Advent in RC circles from Ship of Fools. It is not official and I seem to remember that those mentioning it disapproved.

Well, "chromatically rogue" priests and parishes are always a possibility. If it happens, though, I don't think it's widespread. Use of Advent blue in Episcopal and Lutheran churches, on the other hand, seems to have become the norm, at least around here.

And I should have checked before posting—apparently (approved) RC use of blue vestments in the States is limited to certain Marian shrines.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Ceremoniar
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Blue vestments for Advent, along with the claim that this was the use of Sarum, is a concept invented by church supply companies nearly fifty years ago. Not only will one not find this supported by history, one also notices the equally novel claim that Advent is not a penitential season.
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Bishops Finger
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I had a vague suspicion that blue was indeed approved for RC Marian shrine use, but, given that Our Place is C of E, we shall probably continue to delight in being 'chromatically rogue'!

I think I've mentioned before that we do possess a dark blue chasuble for Advent, but it is old and fragile, and not now used.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Pomona
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Azure blue was sometimes used for Mary Magdalene (as was saffron due to her hair) so perhaps her feast? It's not far away...

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Bishops Finger
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Oh, I've not heard that before! Well, July 22nd (St.Mary M's day) is a Saturday, when we have a regular Eucharist, so we've another excuse to break out the blue.

Where does the idea that her hair was saffron come from, though?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Pomona
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Mary Magdalene is traditionally portrayed as having red or strawberry blonde hair.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I got the idea of blue for Advent in RC circles from Ship of Fools. It is not official and I seem to remember that those mentioning it disapproved.

When I was a curate-priest countless years ago, encountering eggs as one does, I was assiduously climbing the candle. My curacy parish, as it happened, had a set of electric blue vestments, made, I was told, for a former (Very Low™) vicar by a devoted seamstress of the dreaded Ladies Guild, one who knew little of ecclesiantics. She made it because his favourite football (Australian Rules [Disappointed] ) team wore blue. Being Very Low™ he never wore it, and had long since left the parish. His successor my training vicar was, while carflic, not tewwwiibly Sarum-inclined. For many years it reclined in the vestry cupboard.

I however vaguely heard the tradition of Sarum blue, and noticed too that the Australian Lectionary included the option S. Bl. for Marian feasts. So I blew the dust off it and wore it for a Marian Feast (while I was curate in charge and could get away with anything).

It was years later I realised that S. Bl. stood for Special Blessing (and was of course spread far wider and far-er through the lectionary than just Marian Feasts). [Hot and Hormonal]

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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Mary Magdalene is traditionally portrayed as having red or strawberry blonde hair.

"Traditionally"? Where?
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Laud-able

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If you flick through the Google images attached to the entry "St Mary Magdalene" you will see that in Western art she is usually represented as having abundant fair/reddish hair, without a veil. Her other attribute in iconography is the pot of spikenard.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Pomona
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Yes, it's very common in Western art, esp medieval/early modern. And lots of that hair!

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
If you flick through the Google images attached to the entry "St Mary Magdalene" you will see that in Western art she is usually represented as having abundant fair/reddish hair, without a veil. Her other attribute in iconography is the pot of spikenard.

I tried that and found some blondes, some redheads, some brunettes, some veiled. There were also some of her with an egg, which is how I usually picture images of her. Then something hit me -- the resemblance between a famous Icon of Mary Magdalene and the famous National Geographic cover of an Afghan girl.

[ 05. June 2017, 00:32: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Mary Magdalene is traditionally portrayed as having red or strawberry blonde hair.

Be still my beating heart [Hot and Hormonal]

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Bishops Finger
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Now, now.....

....but in some portrayals, she is indeed drop-dead gorgeous. No wonder Our Blessed Lord may well have been in love with her...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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To quote the line from the play Marat/Sade:

Confine your passion to the lady's mind.
Your love's platonic, not the other kind.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Albertus
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'Magdalene'- AIUI related to Hebrew/ Aramaic words meaning 'Tower'. Could this have been a physical nickname for a tall woman? Tall, sensual, redhead....golly....

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Zappa
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[Eek!]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Galilit
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Magdala is a first century Jewish town (was - it's an archeological "dig" as I write). It is just north of Tiberias on the shores of the Sea of Galilee/Kinneret.

As we went there to do the weekly supermarket trip yesterday I thought to myself "Hmmm.... since it was a 'New Town' perhaps Mary had left, had to leave, or or been expelled from another village".

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Albertus
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A new town? Like Basildon? So a Palestinian Essex Girl as well?
This gets better and better....

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Galilit
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More interesting to me is where she came from originally and under what circumstances she left there and settled in Magdala.

(Being a feminist always on the look-out for Wimmin Being Oppressed by the Patriarchy a la 1980's ideological time warp)

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
...I did look in vain in the bespoke service booklet, for instructions what to do, if any non-communicants preferred to receive a blessing instead. They could have been instructed either to carry the service booklet, or else to cross their hands over their chest.

I suppose that giving such instructions could be seen as actively encouraging the practice, which not everyone might like to do, especially in a place such as Walsingham, where Roman Catholic practice can be seen in some ways as a standard.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
...I did look in vain in the bespoke service booklet, for instructions what to do, if any non-communicants preferred to receive a blessing instead. They could have been instructed either to carry the service booklet, or else to cross their hands over their chest.

I suppose that giving such instructions could be seen as actively encouraging the practice, which not everyone might like to do, especially in a place such as Walsingham, where Roman Catholic practice can be seen in some ways as a standard.
I have always gone for a blessing in RC Mass and have never been reprimanded for it! Is it not standard practice?

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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Firstly, to make my position clear; as a communicant, I did receive at the Walsingham National Pilgrimage.

Secondly, no non-communicant is compelled to go forward to receive a blessing, but in my experience, receiving a blessing is encouraged for non-communicants at RC Masses.

Thirdly, I remain unclear as to what is the correct procedure on that pilgrimage occasion, for any non-communicants to receive a blessing. It doesn't affect me, but if I wanted to know, I would enquire locally.

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Firstly, to make my position clear; as a communicant, I did receive at the Walsingham National Pilgrimage.

Secondly, no non-communicant is compelled to go forward to receive a blessing, but in my experience, receiving a blessing is encouraged for non-communicants at RC Masses.

Thirdly, I remain unclear as to what is the correct procedure on that pilgrimage occasion, for any non-communicants to receive a blessing. It doesn't affect me, but if I wanted to know, I would enquire locally.

Blessings for non-Communicants in the RCC are certainly not prohibited and they are so common in Western countries with large numbers of non-Catholics that they are basically common practice. I often do not see instructions in service leaflets telling non-communicants they may receive a blessing, though. Traditionalist (by which I mean enthusiasts of pre-Vatican II practices) Catholics, though, tend to dislike the practice, and will point out that (AFAIK) the Vatican has never encouraged blessing of non-communicants, at least not as a regular thing (I am not sure if local bishops' conferences have or not, and people can correct me if I am wrong about the Vatican). Traditionalists think that non-Communicants should stay in their pews and make an act of spiritual communion (which is not a substitute for actual reception of the sacrament). They might also think that blessing of non-communicants interrupts the distribution of communion in such a way that the Blessed Sacrament is in danger of being dishonored, or that invisible micro-crumbs of the Sacrament might fall onto the floor of the church while the priest blesses someone without being caught by an altar boy with a paten.

Also, since coming before the Blessed Sacrament is its own blessing, and indeed some priests do bless non-Communicants by making the sign of the cross holding a consecrated host, it probably sends Traditionalists into conniptions when they see priests put down a consecrated host and bless someone with his hand alone, or worse, as some priests do, bless someone by laying his hand on their head (the crumbs!). I honestly find the hand-laying-on practice in this case irreverent towards the Blessed Sacrament, too, although I agree that Traditionalists can go overboard with this sort of thing.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Firstly, to make my position clear; as a communicant, I did receive at the Walsingham National Pilgrimage.

Secondly, no non-communicant is compelled to go forward to receive a blessing, but in my experience, receiving a blessing is encouraged for non-communicants at RC Masses.

Thirdly, I remain unclear as to what is the correct procedure on that pilgrimage occasion, for any non-communicants to receive a blessing. It doesn't affect me, but if I wanted to know, I would enquire locally.

Blessings for non-Communicants in the RCC are certainly not prohibited and they are so common in Western countries with large numbers of non-Catholics that they are basically common practice. I often do not see instructions in service leaflets telling non-communicants they may receive a blessing, though. Traditionalist (by which I mean enthusiasts of pre-Vatican II practices) Catholics, though, tend to dislike the practice, and will point out that (AFAIK) the Vatican has never encouraged blessing of non-communicants, at least not as a regular thing (I am not sure if local bishops' conferences have or not, and people can correct me if I am wrong about the Vatican). Traditionalists think that non-Communicants should stay in their pews and make an act of spiritual communion (which is not a substitute for actual reception of the sacrament). They might also think that blessing of non-communicants interrupts the distribution of communion in such a way that the Blessed Sacrament is in danger of being dishonored, or that invisible micro-crumbs of the Sacrament might fall onto the floor of the church while the priest blesses someone without being caught by an altar boy with a paten.

Also, since coming before the Blessed Sacrament is its own blessing, and indeed some priests do bless non-Communicants by making the sign of the cross holding a consecrated host, it probably sends Traditionalists into conniptions when they see priests put down a consecrated host and bless someone with his hand alone, or worse, as some priests do, bless someone by laying his hand on their head (the crumbs!). I honestly find the hand-laying-on practice in this case irreverent towards the Blessed Sacrament, too, although I agree that Traditionalists can go overboard with this sort of thing.

Stonespring, your profile does not say where you are, nor in what country of the world you are from. You might be in UK (as I am), or you might be no-where near.

If you are suggesting that blessings for non-communicants at RC Masses are not to be encouraged, then that is not my experience. But supposing you are away from UK, then things may be that way different in your part of the world. Blessing by laying the hand on the person's head, is 'Anglican' and in my experience, something like the sign of the cross is made with the host over the persons head, avoiding physical contact, at RC Masses. The printed instructions, seem invariably to give directions, to encourage receiving the blessing.

Things are that way different at Extraordinary-Rite Masses, where I agree that non-communicants are encouraged to make an act of spiritual communion.

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stonespring
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I'm in the US. I'm an RC interloper in Anglo-Catholic parishes. I have no problem with Anglicans having their own practice for blessing non-communicants with the sign of the cross or the hands on the head, based on the Eucharistic theology of the church, the parish, and the priest. I was commenting on RCC practice here, where I have observed the sign of the cross with host, sign of the cross without host, and hands on the head, all done by both priests and lay eucharistic ministers - but of course practices vary from diocese to diocese and parish to parish, especially in terms of what is printed in leaflets. Nevertheless, here in the US RCC blessing of non-communicants is pretty much universally offered even if there is nothing about it in the leaflet, which the exception of Tridentine Rite Masses. Although I have been to RC Mass in the UK twice, although at locations that were probably not typical of your average RC Mass (Westminster Cathedral and Brompton Oratory). I don't remember
what the practice was on those two occasions regarding blessing of non-communicants, but I imagine that if I had come forward at Westminster Cathedral, at least, with my arms crossed I would have received a blessing.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I'm in the US. I'm an RC interloper in Anglo-Catholic parishes. I have no problem with Anglicans having their own practice for blessing non-communicants with the sign of the cross or the hands on the head, based on the Eucharistic theology of the church, the parish, and the priest. I was commenting on RCC practice here, where I have observed the sign of the cross with host, sign of the cross without host, and hands on the head, all done by both priests and lay eucharistic ministers - but of course practices vary from diocese to diocese and parish to parish, especially in terms of what is printed in leaflets. Nevertheless, here in the US RCC blessing of non-communicants is pretty much universally offered even if there is nothing about it in the leaflet, which the exception of Tridentine Rite Masses. Although I have been to RC Mass in the UK twice, although at locations that were probably not typical of your average RC Mass (Westminster Cathedral and Brompton Oratory). I don't remember
what the practice was on those two occasions regarding blessing of non-communicants, but I imagine that if I had come forward at Westminster Cathedral, at least, with my arms crossed I would have received a blessing.

Yes, with arms crossed over one's chest at Westminster Cathedral, you would have received a blessing. Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
...I did look in vain in the bespoke service booklet, for instructions what to do, if any non-communicants preferred to receive a blessing instead. They could have been instructed either to carry the service booklet, or else to cross their hands over their chest.

I suppose that giving such instructions could be seen as actively encouraging the practice, which not everyone might like to do, especially in a place such as Walsingham, where Roman Catholic practice can be seen in some ways as a standard.
I have always gone for a blessing in RC Mass and have never been reprimanded for it! Is it not standard practice?
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone would be reprimanded for this in a Catholic church. Indeed, if a non-communicant were to present himself to the priest for a blessing at the time of Communion, I expect that the majority of priests would oblige, but this seems a very different matter from the active encouragement of this sort of interpolation indicated by giving explicit instructions of how to do it in a service booklet.

Where it is actively encouraged, I can only imagine it is because the individual priest has chosen to do that, and not because it is actually a part of the Catholic Mass. In a place where Roman Catholic liturgical norms might be seen as a standard to aspire to, it certainly wouldn't strike me as in any way surprising that there was no active encouragement of something that is not a part of those norms, which is the point I was making in my initial reply.

Certainly, from my Orthodox perspective, it makes no sense. In the rites of both east and west, the priest invokes God's blessing on the gathered people numerous times in key parts of the Mass where those blessings have a particular meaning, but you wouldn't see people wandering up to the priest during communion to ask for their own individual blessings, any more than you would expect to see people do so during the Gospel, or the offertory procession, or the eucharistic canon. It would seem equally strange in all cases as it just doesn't belong. Outside of a liturgical context, there are all manner of opportunities to ask a priest for a blessing, and we have a culture of just that, but just not as additions to the communal Liturgy.

I realise that for people from traditions where this is customary it might sound odd for me to say so, but that is how it looks to me.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Forthview
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It is quite common now in RC parishes in this country for children who have not yet made their First Communion to come up with parents and friends to receive a blessing.It is not uncommon to see adults approach also for a blessing.There is, however, no general direction from the bishops that this should be done.

As the Scrumpmeister says there is a general blessing of the congregation at the end of Mass and so there is no real need to go forward for an individual blessing at the time of Communion.This is apart from the fact that nowadays the majority of the participants will go forward(which was not the case 50 years ago) and understandably those not going to Communion do not want to be left behind.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
It is quite common now in RC parishes in this country for children who have not yet made their First Communion to come up with parents and friends to receive a blessing.It is not uncommon to see adults approach also for a blessing.There is, however, no general direction from the bishops that this should be done.

As the Scrumpmeister says there is a general blessing of the congregation at the end of Mass and so there is no real need to go forward for an individual blessing at the time of Communion.This is apart from the fact that nowadays the majority of the participants will go forward(which was not the case 50 years ago) and understandably those not going to Communion do not want to be left behind.

It is not compulsory for non-communicants to go forward to receive a blessing, but in my experience, it is encouraged.
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georgiaboy
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YMMV, of course, but in more than 50 years as an Anglican communicant, and in many parishes and cathedrals both here in the USA and the UK, I have NEVER seen this:

'Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.'

Though I am sure that it is done in some places. Anglicans, in my experience, remain surprisingly 'insular' (sorry about the incipient pun) and tend to assume that what is done in one's home parish is universal practice.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
YMMV, of course, but in more than 50 years as an Anglican communicant, and in many parishes and cathedrals both here in the USA and the UK, I have NEVER seen this:

'Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.'

I have seen it widely in the UK; although I've never thought about it, it is such a commonplace that I have assumed it's what's taught in the training colleges, "if you don't want to receive communion, but would like to come up for a blessing please bring your service paper as a sign" is common form at weddings and the like where there will be a very mixed congregation.
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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
...I did look in vain in the bespoke service booklet, for instructions what to do, if any non-communicants preferred to receive a blessing instead. They could have been instructed either to carry the service booklet, or else to cross their hands over their chest.

I suppose that giving such instructions could be seen as actively encouraging the practice, which not everyone might like to do, especially in a place such as Walsingham, where Roman Catholic practice can be seen in some ways as a standard.
I have always gone for a blessing in RC Mass and have never been reprimanded for it! Is it not standard practice?
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone would be reprimanded for this in a Catholic church. Indeed, if a non-communicant were to present himself to the priest for a blessing at the time of Communion, I expect that the majority of priests would oblige, but this seems a very different matter from the active encouragement of this sort of interpolation indicated by giving explicit instructions of how to do it in a service booklet.

Where it is actively encouraged, I can only imagine it is because the individual priest has chosen to do that, and not because it is actually a part of the Catholic Mass. In a place where Roman Catholic liturgical norms might be seen as a standard to aspire to, it certainly wouldn't strike me as in any way surprising that there was no active encouragement of something that is not a part of those norms, which is the point I was making in my initial reply.

Certainly, from my Orthodox perspective, it makes no sense. In the rites of both east and west, the priest invokes God's blessing on the gathered people numerous times in key parts of the Mass where those blessings have a particular meaning, but you wouldn't see people wandering up to the priest during communion to ask for their own individual blessings, any more than you would expect to see people do so during the Gospel, or the offertory procession, or the eucharistic canon. It would seem equally strange in all cases as it just doesn't belong. Outside of a liturgical context, there are all manner of opportunities to ask a priest for a blessing, and we have a culture of just that, but just not as additions to the communal Liturgy.

I realise that for people from traditions where this is customary it might sound odd for me to say so, but that is how it looks to me.

Although it is not technically an "official" practice in the RCC, I think it makes sense to many RC people and priests, who think of it as coming forward to be close to the Blessed Sacrament, to adore it, and to be blessed by the Blessed Sacrament itself (which is why, in an RC context, I oppose blessing non-communicants that come forward with merely the priest's hand). An Orthodox understanding of the Liturgy, as opposed to an RC one, may not support this line of thinking, though.
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Ceremoniar
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
YMMV, of course, but in more than 50 years as an Anglican communicant, and in many parishes and cathedrals both here in the USA and the UK, I have NEVER seen this:

'Carrying a book or service paper to indicate a blessing, is another of those 'Anglican' practices.'

Though I am sure that it is done in some places. Anglicans, in my experience, remain surprisingly 'insular' (sorry about the incipient pun) and tend to assume that what is done in one's home parish is universal practice.


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