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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Daily Office (yet again)
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
On another thread, Max signed off: quote:
Max who said Morning Prayer with some Anglicans according to Common Worship Daily Prayer today and prefers the Catholic Divine Office!
I can think of several reasons why you would, but maybe if you spelt them out it would be worth discussing?
(The original Daily Office thread seems to have disappeared.)
[edited title - jlg/host]
[ 15. December 2008, 08:47: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Fewer psalms? Disputes about peoples commemorated somewhat in the manner of RC saints, but not? Not enough anthems of our Lady?
[sorry, to clarify, those are speculative reasons for Max's preferences - not necessarily my own, although I'm in some sympathy with all of them!]
[ 24. November 2008, 17:09: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fewer psalms? Disputes about peoples commemorated somewhat in the manner of RC saints, but not? Not enough anthems of our Lady?
[sorry, to clarify, those are speculative reasons for Max's preferences - not necessarily my own, although I'm in some sympathy with all of them!]
I'd add one of my own: CW's reticence to pray for the departed. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Having used both Anglican and Roman Catholic systems of the Divine Office (I'm currently on a bit of a vacation), I find the lack of systematic reading of Scripture in the LOTH quite impoverishing. I'm much happier with the BCP and additional material.
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Swick
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# 8773
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Posted
I've used LOTH and Benedictine Prayer a few times for variety, but don't really care too much for the style of English used.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....
Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.
Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.
Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.
I don't know what lectionary and psalm schedule the Mendip Hills people were using, but CW Morning Prayer using the standard ones should take only 20 minutes, maybe 30 with lots of silences and maybe hymns.
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
Here in the States, some Lutherans use "For Al the Saints." Ecumenical, 3 scripture lessons, one reading from the wider Church throughout time. Not bad, everything in one book. Anyone else use it?
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....
Some good points, Max, but:
quote:
Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.
Yes, it would be good if there was an edition of CWDP including the text of the readings, or at least giving references so that one didn't have to buy/download the full lectionary. But - Anglican tradition is to have substantial scripture readings at the Office; Anglicans are used to reading from the full Bible (or, some of them, the expurgated version!). That's only a disadvantage if you're saying the Office away from a church or similar place. Also, the RC Divine Office is designed to complement the daily eucharist which is not as common in Anglican circles, hence the lack of a Gospel reading.
quote:
Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.
The prescribed readings are of course longer than for DO Morning Prayer, but about the same as the Office of Readings. There is no obligation to use two long readings at both Morning and Evening Offices. I would have thought the ration of psalms was rather shorter than in the DO... and in any case the lectionary usually allows you to say one only. There are too many words in the introductory part of the office; the intercessions are as long or short as one wants to make them.
Whether one prefers the Grail psalms to the amended ECUSA version in CW is a matter of taste. I like the former, but the rhythm of the latter is more attuned to Anglican ears brought up on Coverdale.
I can't imagine how a said weekday office could possibly take 50 minutes!
quote:
Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"
Max.
I tend to agree.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Here in the States, some Lutherans use "For Al the Saints." Ecumenical, 3 scripture lessons, one reading from the wider Church throughout time. Not bad, everything in one book. Anyone else use it?
Welcome, uffda [tag words that are all too familiar to me].
I've considered For All the Saints, but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again. My favorite Lutheran resource is Pfatteicher's phenomenal Daily Prayer of the Church, but it doesn't include the texts of the readings--only citations.
For common, everyday use, I use the Episcopal Church's Contemporary Office Book, a one-volume text with full Psalter, daily office, collects, and all readings for the 2-year lectionary in NRSV.
[ 24. November 2008, 21:24: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
Martin L. wrote:
"but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again."
I know what you mean, but to me the ecumenical 4th reading has really given me food for prayerful thought over the years. Plus the size of the book makes for easy mobility.
De gustibus non est disputandam!
[ 24. November 2008, 21:36: Message edited by: uffda ]
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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chiltern_hundred
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# 13659
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Posted
I have never used CW:DP, but can well believe that, like the BCP, it becomes impossible to use unless you have a Bible with you. I dare say it was intended to be used in chapels rather than by people like me who perforce say the office in odd places as and when.
I have for some months been using Celebrating Common Prayer, whose English is vastly better than the Roman Office but whose structure makes it bit tedious outside the green seasons - virtually the same service every day between All Saints Day and Advent, yawn yawn.
Incidentally, I was in Blackwells in Oxford yesterday looking around in the religion section and found a book of the Roman Lauds and Vespers in Latin and English (called, surprisingly enough 'Lauds and Vespers) and made the interesting discovery, on comparing it with the 'official' Daily Office on the same shelf, that the English translation was completely different. How can this be?
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.
I don't know what lectionary and psalm schedule the Mendip Hills people were using, but CW Morning Prayer using the standard ones should take only 20 minutes, maybe 30 with lots of silences and maybe hymns.
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!
That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
CW:DP is a simplified version of the full CCP. If you want complicated Max, following the full CCP as morning prayer needs its own special booklet to tell you which day and additional readings to use.
We use CW:DP for morning prayer in a small group. Using a preface of the life of any saints for the day, both the readings, all the psalms and intercessions it takes 30 minutes. Not sure how you got it up to 50 minutes.
There is also an accompanying commentary booklet on the readings which lists the readings and psalms and gives a collect plus commentary on one of the readings. That doesn't follow all the saints.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Martin L. wrote:
"but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again."
I know what you mean, but to me the ecumenical 4th reading has really given me food for prayerful thought over the years. Plus the size of the book makes for easy mobility.
De gustibus non est disputandam!
I get the extra reading from Readings for the Daily Office from the Early Church (here).
I'm sure For all the saints is great, [sensitive Shipmates please plug your ears now] but I like the NRSV.
I also tend to switch from one breviary to another at will. Since I'm not part of any monastic community, and under no obligation to pray the office, I do what feels right. Sometimes that means something like Monastic Diurnal Revised or St. Helena Breviary. Sometimes that means the office from Evangelical Lutheran Worship, although when I use ELW I find that I miss the enriching variety of the missing canticles.
As for carrying the book around, it's not an issue for me. It stays at home. The good thing about the BCP79 Daily Office is that it is rather simplistic and quite easy to memorize.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Incidentally, I was in Blackwells in Oxford yesterday looking around in the religion section and found a book of the Roman Lauds and Vespers in Latin and English (called, surprisingly enough 'Lauds and Vespers) and made the interesting discovery, on comparing it with the 'official' Daily Office on the same shelf, that the English translation was completely different. How can this be?
The official translated is copyrighted,so presumably they wanted to get around that. Add to that, that the official translation is simply not as accurate as the one in the book you found. (I beleive I have the same book.)The preface says that he wanted the translation to tell people what the Latin meant, ad having spoken to the priest who was the editor, he wanted it to also be an aid for those learning Latin.
The translation used in 'Lauds and Vespers' is more poetic and beautiful in my opinion.
I gave up on all these translations a few months ago when I came across an extremely rare Diurnal for the Liturgia Horarum.
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I have never used CW:DP, but can well believe that, like the BCP, it becomes impossible to use unless you have a Bible with you. I dare say it was intended to be used in chapels rather than by people like me who perforce say the office in odd places as and when.
I have for some months been using Celebrating Common Prayer, whose English is vastly better than the Roman Office but whose structure makes it bit tedious outside the green seasons - virtually the same service every day between All Saints Day and Advent, yawn yawn.
Using CW:DP without a Bible and lectionary is very possible, which is what I carry on planes and ships, etc. There are plenty of lessons printed in the Prayer During the Day section and you can use one of those for the office. Or even two. Or p'raps one of the canticles as a lesson, if one isn't too anal about these things.
I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days.
Common Worship is a very model of modern major offices. The next overhaul needs to look at the translation of the Psalms, ridding the world of the ubiquitous iniquitous WHO for God, (O God who ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) ) unnatural in English in 1549 and in 2008 the only thing I'll be sure to change in the collects.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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chiltern_hundred
Shipmate
# 13659
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Posted
Mama Thomas scripsit: "I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days."
Might be an idea to combine the two, then. Could get fiddly, juggling books on a train or plane ...
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!
That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!
You're not comparing like with like, though: how long were the readings in the Office of Readings?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!
That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!
You're not comparing like with like, though: how long were the readings in the Office of Readings?
Thurible
Exactly - the full Roman Catholic service of morning prayer should include both the Office of Readings (Vigils, Matins) with Lauds immediately following.
If Jeremiah 15:16 was all the Scriptural reading you were getting this would be woefully impoverished as you surely realise!
I can't see how you get close to fifty minutes though...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
There must have been something else going on for it to take 50 minutes!
The fixed parts of Common Worship Daily Prayer take about 10 minutes to read aloud, 15 with pregnant pauses. Its shorter than the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer and you can get through them with readings but without hymns or sermon in 15 minutes. Said slowly and reverently with chanting and with a long psalm any one of those offices might take maybe twenty-five to thirty minutes. As is proved week after week on the BBC and almost every Anglican cathedral in the land. (Rushed through with silent readings you could do them in ten)
So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!
I think something else must have been going on and I think Max knows what it is! We demand the truth! There wasn't a sermon was there Max? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!
Not in Somerset.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There must have been something else going on for it to take 50 minutes!
The fixed parts of Common Worship Daily Prayer take about 10 minutes to read aloud, 15 with pregnant pauses. Its shorter than the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer and you can get through them with readings but without hymns or sermon in 15 minutes. Said slowly and reverently with chanting and with a long psalm any one of those offices might take maybe twenty-five to thirty minutes. As is proved week after week on the BBC and almost every Anglican cathedral in the land. (Rushed through with silent readings you could do them in ten)
So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!
I think something else must have been going on and I think Max knows what it is! We demand the truth! There wasn't a sermon was there Max? Inquiring minds want to know!
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.
It's a good practice to mark these before the service, of course.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The readings for Morning Prayer follow on. We've been reading Revelation from chapter 1 since the beginning of November. The Isaiah only started on Monday, but why not mark up before you start?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.
It's a good practice to mark these before the service, of course.
quote:
Curiosity killed...
but why not mark up before you start?
Indeed, I enjoy those precious preparation minutes...time to unwind and focus before the office. There's nothing more satisfying than having it all ready to go. It takes me six or seven markers* to manage some breviaries, but I pray a smooth office once everything is set up. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
*Not counting the fixed markers I keep for First Vespers, just in case! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
6 or 7 markers? Well as we have 30 or 35 minutes that means Max's mates were taking 5 minutes a time.
So has it come to this, that a group of theologians and ordination candidates take FIVE MINUTES to find each reading in the Bible????
The youth of today! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Post-it notes, Max. Live 'em, love 'em.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Two questions/topics for discussion:
i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship
Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?
I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?
ii) Lectionaries
As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.
The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.
Bede's American Successor pointed me in the direction of tECUSA's one volume edition a while back but that looks a bit pricey.
Canterbury Press have reissued the 1928 BCP with the 1922 lections in - but I assume they're in the Authorised/Revised Version and I can't see me managing to stay awake with that.
What other options are there?
Also, is it important to use a 'living' lectionary? Would it make sense for an English Anglican to use an American lectionary (and, yes, I do think it makes sense for an English Anglican to use the Catholic lectionary before anyone starts!)? Is the American lectionary, in fact, different to the English one?
Opinions, views, etc., sought.
Thurible
[ 08. December 2008, 12:04: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
Well, the website calendar's automated, obviously, and not taking account of which day of the week it is.
Another thread pointed me towards the New Catholic Bible, which has tables for daily mass readings and the Breviary readings, could be useful for you.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.
The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.
Thurible, are you looking for a volume that includes both Prayer-Book style offices *and* Catholic supplements like office hymns, antiphons, collects for feast days, etc.? Must it also include the office lessons?
If the former, I *highly recommend* the Monastic Breviary edited by a brother of the Order of the Holy Cross, an Anglican Benedictine order. Mattins, Diurnum (noonday), Vespers and monastic Compline, all with appropriate hymns and etc. Easy to learn to use, in stately but modern English. I use it, and can answer any question you have about a day's given hours if you FB-mail me. Call the Holy Cross shop number to arrange to have it shipped to the UK, if you're interested.
All that said, regarding my latter question, the Breviary's tables of lessons are those of the US 1979 BCP, and it does not include lessons appended in the back like the recent 1928/1922 volume that you cite. That might be a blessing in disguise for you--you could cart along the Bible edition of your choice, and use the CW lectionary, or Fr. Hunwicke's lessons for Mattins and Evensong, if you choose. The Breviary has its own substantial but feasible psalm schema, and short readings are included for Diurnum and Compline.
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
I should also mention that the Monastic Breviary does provide I Vespers for many feasts.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
As does the Book of Alternative Services and, if I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP. I'd be rather surprised if CW did not.
Sundays, however, do not typically have I Evensong, at least not explicitly.
[ 08. December 2008, 14:51: Message edited by: LQ ]
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].
I think you may be. According to Dr. Hatchett (joke writes self here) the editors of the '79 felt that I Vespers generally included lections that did little to illuminate the saint or feast being observed, and further waylaid the supposed lectio continua offered by the '79 office lectionary.
[ 08. December 2008, 14:56: Message edited by: Brian M ]
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I just checked here. Several "Eves" of feasts have their own Evensong, just as in the BAS.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship
Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?
I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?
I can't speak for Durham Cathedral. However, it is not rare for cathedrals and other churches to keep 'unofficial' First Evensongs at the whim of whoever is in authority, especially if the day would otherwise be ferial. This includes Evensnog on Ordinary Sundays being Of the Saint of the Following Day which can be found sporadically even in rather low churches. As to any official provision I know no more than your good self!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I find the Common Worship Daily Office takes about the same amount of time as the 1662 BCP with the modern lectionary. That is to say 20 to 22 minutes in the morning and 15 to 17 minutes in the evening. However, I mark up the books before hand, and don't try any complicated variations.
My own personal favourites for the Daily Office are the 1662 BCP with the 1922 lection and the Anglican Breviary.
I always say the 1662 BCP Office with a couple of Anglo-Catholic enrichments - the Office Hymn, appropriate Collects for minor feast days, and Antiphons on the Benedictus and the Magnificat, which are fairly harmless additions.
The Anglican Breviary which is very rich in its material, but is a bugger to learn. When I am on a "Breviary kick" I use the 1960 rubrics with one adaption. That adaption is that instead of omitting Matins lessons 8 and 9 on Sunday I tack them on from the end of 7. That preserves more of the useful stuff from the Early Fathers that sadly got dumped in the John XXIII revision of the Breviary.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].
I think you may be. According to Dr. Hatchett (joke writes self here) the editors of the '79 felt that I Vespers generally included lections that did little to illuminate the saint or feast being observed, and further waylaid the supposed lectio continua offered by the '79 office lectionary.
The end of the BCP 1979 lectionary does provide some propers for eves of apostles, etc., and we sometimes use them here, or we check The Prayer Book Office to see what what's-his-name suggests. Howard Galley...that's his name. I'm getting slower in retrieving names from the central database in my old age.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:
i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship
Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?
I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?
It's the website that's wrong. CW:DP says (p 106) 'At Evening Prayer on Saturday the Collect, canticles and refrains for the Sunday following are used (except where the Saturday itself is a Principal Feast or Festival*, Christmas Eve or Easter Eve).'
*St Nicholas is not a 'Festival' according to the CW Calendar.
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Slightly off topic. I use Christian Prayer. It does not have some of the new feasts, such as Juan Diego for 9 December. Are the propers for this feast online anywhere?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Universalis has daily propers - and I assume they're up to date.
There's an American supplement available from Amazon but I'm not sure quite how up to date that is.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
I tried Universalis. They have today as the Tuesday of the Second Week of Advent or St Juan Diego, but give no propers for poor old Juan.
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:
i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship
Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?
I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?
It's the website that's wrong. CW:DP says (p 106) 'At Evening Prayer on Saturday the Collect, canticles and refrains for the Sunday following are used (except where the Saturday itself is a Principal Feast or Festival*, Christmas Eve or Easter Eve).'
*St Nicholas is not a 'Festival' according to the CW Calendar.
I sometimes check in at the Oremus.org CW iffice site. I think when they observe a minor saint's day the office is that of the season with the saint being observed only with the antiphon for the Gospel Canticle and the concluding collect. Which, if I recall correctly as a sometimes user of Christian Prayer, is basically the same way Roman rite memorials are observed.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Thank you for suggestions and comments, etc.
With regard to lectionaries, I'm quite interested in the idea of whether or not we should be 'heterodox' in our use of them.
Instinctively, as an English Anglican, I would use, in order of preference, the lectionary of the Catholic Church in England and Wales followed by the CW lectionary. This is because I'm a modern rite English Anglican.
However, the former's a bit brief if you're not combined it with the eucharistic lectionary and the latter cuts bits out. I could, of course, use a Read Through The Bible in a Year schema to avoid cutting things out but this wouldn't tie in with the calendar I was using - and I wouldn't be reading the same lections as anyone else praying the Office.
Does this matter? I'd be grateful for people's thoughts.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Extol
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# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I could, of course, use a Read Through The Bible in a Year schema to avoid cutting things out but this wouldn't tie in with the calendar I was using - and I wouldn't be reading the same lections as anyone else praying the Office.
I once had a conversation with a trusted acquaintance in an AC shrine church about sufficient "coverage" in daily office lectionaries. At the time I was using the English 1922 lectionary privately, while his parish uses the American 1945 lectionary for public recitation of the offices. I argued that the '22 was the better lectionary, as it covered far more Scripture in a year. He argued that much of what was cut out of the '45--the accounts of battles, the genealogies, the other lengthy historical accounts--ought best to be seen as the historical framework for revelation, not revelation itself, and that as Catholics we ought not to be preoccupied by covering every word of scripture every year. Made sense to me anyway.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
In what way does the Catholic (office) lectionary not cut bits out, if it is briefer than the Anglican one? And do you mean the latter omits the 'Apocrypha'? Because I don't think that is true - alternatives are always provided.
[question to Thurible, re above]
[ 09. December 2008, 19:03: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
I'm picking these at random, without a Bible to hand, but there's a difference between "Deuteronomy 2:6-7" and "Deuteronomy 2:1-2, 3, 7, 20-23, 30-38". The CW lectionary always reminds me rather of the latter. I'd like short lections or extended passages.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Thurible, the Common Worship Morning Prayer lectionary is chunks of continuous reading. The bits it misses out are OT chapters or half chapters. This year, we have read through both books of both Samuel and Kings, and quite often read half a chapter and skipped the rest or skipped an entire chapter (good whitewash job on David for the most part). But for the last month or so, it has been continuous readings - all of Daniel alongside Revelation, when Daniel ran out, the OT reading moved to the second book of Isaiah. Now Revelation has finished the NT readings are 1 Thessalonians. This morning it was chapter 46 of Isaiah, chapter 45 was split in two, over Saturday and Monday, and 1 Thes 2:1-12, chapter 1 being read yesterday.
The other reason a section is skipped is that a saint or holy day overrides the readings, and the lectionary carries on regardless while the readings for Luke or whoever are inserted.
[eta - I know I'm not the only person who reads the bits skipped anyway]
[ 09. December 2008, 22:49: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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