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Source: (consider it) Thread: Daily Office (yet again)
Olaf
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That makes sense. I always get a chuckle over where a particular breviary has deigned to place the office hymn, which I typically omit anyway as I do not chant the office. One never knows where the hymn will pop up next. I keep waiting for it to be sandwiched between the first Gloria Patri and the Alleluia.

Your office looks quite appealing for use. Congratulations on securing the permissions.

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Edgeman
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quote:
Originally posted by Fulrad:
I understand that the Liturgy of the Hours English translation of the RC office is not up for review.

However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'


------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog. [Smile]

Not only that,but all the collects for the office have been re-translated, and the current psalter is due to replaced by the revised Grail Psalter, so that it matches the one used at mass.Some other parts of the office,such as some antiphons and responsories, are taken from or are similar to chants from the mass. These will also no longer match.

Even if a translation is'nt currently planned it's rather obvious that they'll have to get around to it eventually.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
1) I tend to find the usual placement of office hymns to be odd, either between the opening versicles and the psalmody, or (even worse) between the reading and the canticle.

One reason for having a hymn between the first lesson and Magnificat in the Anglican Solemn Evensong is to give the thurifer time to get ready for the full censings during Magnificat. Although it's ideal if the censings aren't finished by the time the Gloria Patri after Magnificat comes around, so the organist can thrill everyone with the necessary improvisation leading up to the Gloria Patri. [Big Grin]
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FatherRobLyons
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Here is the draft for Morning Prayer as I used it this morning. The reading was James 1: 1-18. Normally the lesson and the intercessions would be lead by a second reader, as would alternating portions of the psalm.

WEDNESDAY

Morning Prayer

CALL TO WORSHIP

+ O Lord, open our lips.
And we will proclaim your praise.

Each day, O Lord, is a gift of your grace.
Your mercies are new every morning.

Guide our steps by the light of your Word.
Shield us from harm and keep us from evil.

PRAYER

O Lord, heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this new day. Defend us with your mighty power, and grant that this day we may fall into no sin, nor run into any kind of danger; and, in all that we do, direct us towards those things which are pleasing in your sight. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

PSALMODY

Week One
Psalm 8
DOMINE, DOMINUS NOSTER

1 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!


2 Out of the mouths of infants and children *
your majesty is praised above the heavens.
3 You have set up a stronghold against your adversaries, *
to quell the enemy and the avenger.

4 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, *
the moon and the stars you have set in their courses,
5 What is man that you should be mindful of him? *
the son of man that you should seek him out?

6 You have made him but little lower than the angels; *
you adorn him with glory and honor;
7 You give him mastery over the works of your hands; *
you put all things under his feet:

8 All sheep and oxen, *
even the wild beasts of the field,
9 The birds of the air, the fish of the sea, *
and whatsoever walks in the paths of the sea.

10 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!


READING

A reading, appointed for the day, is proclaimed.

If a celebration of the Eucharist is to be appended to this hour of prayer,
two readings are proclaimed, with the second being from the Gospels.


REFLECTION

A brief reflection on the reading may be offered.

HYMN

A hymn may be sung.

INTERCESSIONS

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.


Give us peace in our days, O Lord;
The peace which comes only from you.

Let your pastors declare the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And pierce each person’s heart with the mystery of your love.

Keep us from losing heart as we witness the suffering of the world around us;
And strengthen us to use our talents to relive the suffering we encounter.

Show us how to walk this day in love;
That we may imitate Christ who gave himself up to death for love of us.

Do good, O Lord, to those who have been good to us;
And help us to honor those who have placed their trust in us.

Have mercy upon all who are dying this day;
Grant that they may trust in you for rest.

Intercessions and thanksgivings may be offered silently or aloud.

THE LORD’S PRAYER

And now, as our Savior Christ has taught us, we boldly pray:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Let your kingdom come.
Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
and deliver us from the evil one.
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours,
now and forever. Amen.


PRAYER

God our Creator, today you bring us to a new stage of our journey with you. May the presence of your Son be our guide, and the love of the Spirit our light, until we come at last to you, the one true God, who is blessed forever and ever. Amen.

CANTICLE
Benedictus

Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; *
he has come to his people and set them free.
He has raised up for us a mighty savior, *
born of the house of his servant David.

Through his holy prophets he promised of old,
that he would save us from our enemies, *
from the hands of all who hate us.
He promised to show mercy to our fathers *
and to remember his holy covenant.

This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, *
to set us free from the hands of our enemies,
Free to worship him without fear, *
holy and righteous in his sight
all the days of our life.

You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, *
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way,
To give his people knowledge of salvation *
by the forgiveness of their sins.

In the tender compassion of our God *
the dawn from on high shall break upon us,
To shine on those who dwell in darkness
and the shadow of death, *
and to guide our feet into the way of peace.


DOXOLOGY

+ Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit;
as it was in the beginning,
is now, and will be forever. Amen.


(Note: The intercessions above are adapted from the Litany for Wednesday, Week I&III at Lauds found in Benedictine Daily Prayer: A Short Breviary.)

[ 15. September 2010, 11:32: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]

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Patrick
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Cambell's From Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours gives an account of how the Office Hymn wound up at the beginning of all the hours in the new LOTH: in short, without much reflection or debate or rationale. The older order, where the Hymn came before the Canticle, marked the end of the monastic elements at Lauds and Vespers (psalmody) and the elements proper to the older cathedral use office.
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Jon in the Nati
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Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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FatherRobLyons
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?

I've tried various cycles... 2 week, 4 week, 7 week from the 79 BCP. None of them really felt right for meditatively entering into the Psalms in our context. I want people to have the chance to focus on a particular Psalm and give it the reflection and consideration it deserves as a part of their spiritual formation. I also want to give them fewer excuses to fail.

Using this cycle, one would offer the entire Psalter at least 4 times per year. This is better than my congregation currently manages. In the same way, we simply follow the section divisions in our Bibles for readings. We use a common bible in our congregation (NLT Second Revised Edition) in Chronological Order (admittedly, we thin out the OT readings, but the Gospels and the remainder of the NT are read through entirely annually). We are still experimenting with the daily lectionary layout so that could yet be tweaked... and then there is the matter of getting approval of the final project before publication can occur.

Rob+

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sebby
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Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

--------------------
sebhyatt

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FatherRobLyons
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

Sebby,

Since this is an office book for our parish, we are simply using the form we use in parish life. It isn't exactly the modern form, and we tried to keep it closer to the cadence of the original form while making it more imperative of voice. If someone chose to change it on the fly at home, that would be fine, but I don't think anyone in our congregation would. We have all been using this form for four years now and are quite pleased with it.

Rob+

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Wilfried
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

We sing the modern Lord's Prayer as printed in the BCP79 every Sunday at our AC Rite 2 parish. I hear it often enough. It's not dead.
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Fulrad
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I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog. [Smile]

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FatherRobLyons
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quote:
Originally posted by Fulrad:
I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

The closest I am aware of is the West Syrian rite's usage of the Gloria in Excelsis as the closing hymn at Morning Prayer (followed by a short prayer and blessing). In the west, I am not immediately aware of an example, but it would be simply addressed by flipping the Canticle and the post-reflection hymn provisions.

Incidentally, I presented the draft of the first week. Some suggestions were made, including not keeping an office sabbath (a concept borrowed from The Paraclete Psalter) on Saturdays. As a result, the Psalter was slightly reworked, and is now on a 9 week cycle instead of 10 weeks, with the Sunday Morning and Evening Psalms being selected as traditional morning and evening psalms. They are not repeated in the weekdays of the Cycle. Excluded are psalms 51 and 134, which are already used at least eight times a year (which is about the frequency of the other psalms) during certain points of the office.

Rob+

[ 16. September 2010, 23:49: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]

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Antiphon
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I see that Midwest Theological Forum have placed a few sample pages from their new edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum on their website.

As far as I can make out, the standard of printing may be better than the Vatican Press edition, but it seems that MTF have printed the office on two columns on each page like many pre-Vatican Two breviaries, which some may find less clear than the Vatican Press edition, which spaces everything out over the full page like the vernacular editions.

Has anyone actually seen a copy of the MTF LH for themselves?

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New Yorker
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I use Christian Prayer, a one volume version of the US version of the LOTH. I am not familiar with the 4 volume set, but I seem to recall that many feast days have proper hymns. Is this correct? If so, is there somewhere online that I could go to find the proper hymns for the feast days?

Thanks.

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Jon in the Nati
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Daily Office question re: order of the readings

Let us say, for sake of example, that in one office I have a reading from the OT, an epistle and Gospel lection, and a patristics selection. Am I correct that the proper order is:

OT -> NT -> GOSPEL -> PATRISTIC

If so, why does the Patristic selection come after the Gospel (and what is the proper response to it)?

If not, what is the proper order?

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Let us say, for sake of example, that in one office I have a reading from the OT, an epistle and Gospel lection, and a patristics selection. Am I correct that the proper order is:

OT -> NT -> GOSPEL -> PATRISTIC

If so, why does the Patristic selection come after the Gospel (and what is the proper response to it)?

If not, what is the proper order?

That's a lot of readings in one office.

I think the usual thing is to have an OT lesson and an NT one, each followed by a canticle (Magnificat and Nunc dimittis, respectively, at Evening Prayer). If there's a third lesson, like a patristic one, some commentators say it should immediately follow the second biblical one (so before the Nunc at Evening Prayer) and others say it should be between the second canticle and the Apostles' Creed.

We do what our 1979 BCP recommends by having at Morning Prayer the OT and Epistle/Acts readings in Year 1 and the OT and Gospel readings in Year 2. The remaining reading (Gospel in Year 1 and Epistle/Acts in Year 2) is the first reading at Evening Prayer, and the second is a patristic one. Unless it's a holy day with two biblical readings at MP and two more at EP.

The Gospel reading works differently in an Office than at Mass. At Mass it's the climax of the Liturgy of the Word, often the basis for the sermon, and the source of antiphons on the Gospel canticles at the offices (in RC breviaries, anyway). It's in the honorable final position among the readings, and we stand while it's proclaimed from a fancy book, perhaps chanted.

At the Office, our BCP doesn't have us stand for a Gospel lesson, and it isn't required to be the last lesson. This is not to downplay it, but it's more of another installment in a reading of the Gospels in course than it is a centerpiece and theme-setter of the whole liturgy. At the Office, we're reading the whole Bible (more or less) in course throughout the year (or two). This was more obvious in early BCPs when each day's Office readings were the next whole chapter of several biblical books.

Another point about the patristic reading coming after the Gospel, if it does, is that it's a commentary on the scriptures (perhaps those just heard) and perhaps is kept separate to avoid seeming to raise the patristic writings to the level of Scripture. It also continues a pattern from traditional breviaries (monastic and otherwise) at Matins/Vigils where the first nocturn's lesson would be scriptural, the second patristic, and the third either hagiographical or a patristic commentary on the Gospel of the day.

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Jon in the Nati
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Thanks Oblatus.

I didn't mean to suggest that we would have so many readings at one office; we never have more than three, obviously with canticles or hymns interspersed. I just wondered about placing the patristic lesson after the Gospel; the way we have been doing it is to have it immediately following the Gospel canticle at Lauds (that is, preceding the Creed). I was just wondering if there was any agreed upon way of doing it.

We generally have 2 (OT and Epistle) readings at Lauds, and 2 (OT and Gospel) at Vespers. When I recite the office privately, I use the patristic selection at diurnum, but for public recitation I am toying with the idea of replacing the OT reading at either Lauds or Vespers with the patristic lesson.

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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DitzySpike
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While we are on Patristic readings, some might be interested in this resource. 2 Years Patristic Lectionary
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Jon in the Nati
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Okay, one more daily office question.

I've heard people speak of aggregating MP and EP, but I've never actually seen it done. How would one go about doing that, assuming you wanted to do so?

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I've heard people speak of aggregating MP and EP, but I've never actually seen it done. How would one go about doing that, assuming you wanted to do so?

I've done it privately, to catch up if I haven't prayed any office all day and it's getting late. Just add the other office's psalms and lessons. Generally, I pray Evening Prayer as given but pray all the day's psalms and read all three of the day's lessons (OT - Magnificat - Epistle - Nunc - Gospel - Creed). I don't worry about collects...the prayers section of the office is just as given for Evening Prayer. Some of the Morning Prayer collects wouldn't make much sense in the evening anyway.

Another approach, rather than catching up, is to realize that the Church Universal has kept the Office on your behalf, and you can just reconnect at the current point in the cycle, pray the appropriate office for the time of day, and move on.

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Adam.

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I would say you really can't. MP is by definition a *morning* office, EP and *evening* one. There is no time which is both morning and evening, so there is no time one could say both.

As Oblatus has said, the Church has prayed the missed office. If you were unable to pray it due to a work of charity (including necessary self-care), then rejoice in that! If you were unable to pray it due to negligence, laziness or carelessness, meditate on that fault instead of trying to 'make up' what you really can't.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

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Jon in the Nati
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It really has little to do with making up a missed office; I have actually heard of parishes or oratories serving aggregated MP & EP, but have never actually attended such a service. I was just wondering how that would be done.

Thanks, though.

[ 03. October 2010, 20:34: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It really has little to do with making up a missed office; I have actually heard of parishes or oratories serving aggregated MP & EP, but have never actually attended such a service. I was just wondering how that would be done.

Thanks, though.

Ah, I misunderstood. Such aggregation seems pointless to me, but I'd be interested in learning more about such a practice and why it's done.

I do know of the practice in some monasteries (probably some decades ago) of aggregating the little hours either with each other or something like Matins-Lauds-Prime.

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Adam.

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I aggregate OoR and DP most days. I'm afraid it makes no sense to me to aggregate MP and EP as any attempt to do so loses the time-of-day character the office (should!) have.

--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Spiffy
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It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline. They flow a lot better into one another. And at least in the US BCP, the major prayers of Compline are right there in the EP choices.

--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

Made sense to Cranmer too.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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I'm sure there used to be (maybe still is) a church in the city of London with this daily schedule: 12.00 Morning Prayer; 12.15 Eucharist; 12.45 Evening Prayer. Or something like it.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Spiffy
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

Made sense to Cranmer too.

Glad he agrees with me.

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure there used to be (maybe still is) a church in the city of London with this daily schedule: 12.00 Morning Prayer; 12.15 Eucharist; 12.45 Evening Prayer. Or something like it.

The Church of St Mary Magdalene in Toronto has Morning Prayer at 10.30am, Solemn Mass at 11am, Evening Prayer at 1.15pm (among other Sunday services), presumably so it's possible to pray a complete liturgical day in church with others. When there's Solemn Evensong and Benediction, it's at 4pm or later, though.
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Jon in the Nati
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Our sister parish (one town over) is working on adding Lauds/Morning Prayer/Mattins before Sunday mass, with maybe Lauds and Vespers other days during the week. They just really want some manifestation of the daily office in their parish, but we aren't sure yet what form its going to take.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Our sister parish (one town over) is working on adding Lauds/Morning Prayer/Mattins before Sunday mass, with maybe Lauds and Vespers other days during the week. They just really want some manifestation of the daily office in their parish, but we aren't sure yet what form its going to take.

A very successful model I've seen in a TEC place or two is to make it standard policy to automatically precede your first morning Mass with Morning Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes tops), and to automatically precede any evening Mass with Evening Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes).

It seemed to help by introducing it slowly. Rather than jumping to daily, perhaps start by praying the offices only before currently-scheduled masses. This might mean evening prayer only comes up before days like Ash Wednesday, and morning prayer only on Sunday and Wednesday (or whatever). At least it would give time in the parish to build a following. Although, I suppose if there already is a demand for daily offices every day of the week, then this might not make much of a difference.

[ 04. October 2010, 22:48: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
A very successful model I've seen in a TEC place or two is to make it standard policy to automatically precede your first morning Mass with Morning Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes tops), and to automatically precede any evening Mass with Evening Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes).
This is basically what we're looking at doing to start, except that the rector over there is very concerned that people will stop coming to mass if they stick morning prayer earlier. This is not as big of a danger in our historically AC parish, but that parish is historically pretty low, and until relatively recently it was the evangelical/low church Anglican practice to alternate Mattins/MP with the Eucharist, or to have the Eucharist only once a month (a la most Protestant groups). Really, we just don't want to confuse anyone, or devalue in any way the Eucharist.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
...but that parish is historically pretty low, and until relatively recently it was the evangelical/low church Anglican practice to alternate Mattins/MP with the Eucharist, or to have the Eucharist only once a month (a la most Protestant groups). Really, we just don't want to confuse anyone, or devalue in any way the Eucharist.

Ah, then I'm sure it is a good idea to tread lightly. One wouldn't want to rekindle fond memories: "Oh, Morning Prayer! When I was young, we used to go to Mornin' Prayer every Sunday, and church was just packed."

Perhaps it can be taught very carefully as an add-on disciple. I'd imagine it would be prudent to avoid music at all costs [for now], to dissociate this from the old hour-long sung Morning Prayer services of a bygone era. 10 minutes of spoken office should do it. If it's close in time to Mass, then it should be fairly clear that it is expected people will do both.

[Also, to build an audience, it might be good to simply train people to enter and take a pew quietly, rather than to wait in the entry until the office is over.]

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dkpintar
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From the website "New Liturgical Movement"

quote:
A couple of our readers have made note of this free and ready to print, two-year Scriptural-Patristic Lectionary for use at the Office of Readings (Vigils). This utilizes the two-year scriptural lectionary that Rome had prepared as an alternative to the one-year lectionary in the Liturgy of the Hours, together with the patristic readings to correspond with them.
[Edited to remove copyrighted material. See link for remainder of article. -- Mamacita, Host]

[ 06. October 2010, 03:32: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

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die 1 martii: Menéviæ in Cámbira, sancti David, epíscopi, qui, exémpla et mores Patrum orientálium ímitans, monastérium, cóndidit, unde permùlti profécti sunt mónachi, qui Cámbriam, Hibérnium, Cornúbiam et Armóricam evangelizárunt.

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Antiphon
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I've also noticed the two-year patristic lectionary which was referenced on the NLM website. I wish some publisher would produce it in book form for use with the LOH Office of Readings.

Are these the same readings which Solesmes publish in French and Latin in the "Lectionnaire Monastique"?

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
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Hosting

dkpintar,

Please do not copy entire posts from other websites. This falls under Commandment 7 which restricts use of copyrighted material. Also, please note that there is a UBB Code Practice Thread on the Styx board where you can practice inserting URLs.

Thank you.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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dkpintar
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mamacita: Sorry, my enthusiasm got the best of me.

antiphon: I plan to sit down this weekend and make comparisons with existing two-year formats.

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die 1 martii: Menéviæ in Cámbira, sancti David, epíscopi, qui, exémpla et mores Patrum orientálium ímitans, monastérium, cóndidit, unde permùlti profécti sunt mónachi, qui Cámbriam, Hibérnium, Cornúbiam et Armóricam evangelizárunt.

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The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
The closest I am aware of is the West Syrian rite's usage of the Gloria in Excelsis as the closing hymn at Morning Prayer

I was about to post to say that, on feasts of certain rank and above, Matins in the Byzantine Rite ends with the Great Doxology, (which is essentially the Gloria enhanced). I was going to say this because my only two experiences of Matins (we don't do it in my parish) have been in Slavonic, and served as part of the Vigil, so I haven't really understood, not having any English experience with which to compare it, and by that point had lost the energy to try to follow. My only experience has been in churches of Greek tradition, where, on Sunday mornings, the Great Doxology has been sung immediately prior to the start of the Liturgy. I have been told, and for a few years simply accepted, that this is due to abbreviation of services in the parishes and that, in Greek-style monasteries, the Liturgy would be preceded by Matins, of which the Great Doxology is the conclusion.

However, having just checked the Book of Hours for myself, it appears that Matins does not end with the Great Doxology at all! but is followed by a number of litanies and, on certain days, other hymns. I have double-checked this against the outline of Matins in Taft's Liturgy of the Hours in East and West, which supports my reading of it.

All of which means that this post is now really rather pointless unless somebody with more experience or knowledge of this is able to correct my understanding.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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dyfrig
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When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

There certainly is, and it is a part of Matins, it just doesn't appear to form its conclusion, contrary to what I had previosuly been told. (I'm sorry for the confusion with subject and verb in my earlier post).

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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IngoB

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# 8700

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News from Baronius on their Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum, a re-edition of the three-volume Collegeville Breviary in Latin & English, originally published in 1963: "The excellent news is that the final corrections from the Censor have been received a few days ago. We anticipate that the implementation of the corrections and the finalising of the Breviary will take a couple of weeks. After this, we will formally apply for the Concordat cum originali to be granted – the necessary approval that liturgical texts require in order to be used and also to ensure that the text is accurate. As soon as the permission is granted, the printing will commence." Apparently this was posted 28th of October 2010. It looks like this one will finally become a reality, perhaps still in time for the Christmas shopping? I'm very curious about the price point they'll choose...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
News from Baronius on their Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum, a re-edition of the three-volume Collegeville Breviary in Latin & English, originally published in 1963: "The excellent news is that the final corrections from the Censor have been received a few days ago. We anticipate that the implementation of the corrections and the finalising of the Breviary will take a couple of weeks. After this, we will formally apply for the Concordat cum originali to be granted – the necessary approval that liturgical texts require in order to be used and also to ensure that the text is accurate. As soon as the permission is granted, the printing will commence." Apparently this was posted 28th of October 2010. It looks like this one will finally become a reality, perhaps still in time for the Christmas shopping? I'm very curious about the price point they'll choose...

My totally uninformed speculation is that they will go for around the £100 mark; I would be surprised if they went much less than that, and I suspect that much over £150 they may be pricing themselves out of the market, even though this still compares well with secondhand copies of the original Collegeville version, with the less popular Pius XII psalter. By comparison, Daniel Lula's reprinting of the Anglican Breviary retails to the UK for about £60, the Monastic Diurnal and Diurnale Romanum about £40 each (plus shipping) - all single-volume productions - whilst Nova et Vetera's (very handsome) two volume Breviarium Romanum is £170 plus shipping.

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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books


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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
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Transferred from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm wondering what is considered the best Anglo-Catholic form of the Daily Office... does the historic Prayer Book office rank on the list? (If such an agreement can be had). I'm aware of the Daily Office thread, however, my question, relates to the historic Prayer Book offices and the Anglo-Catholic preference.



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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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dj_ordinaire
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The Bishop of Ebbsfleet I believe edited an edition of the Prayer Book Office edited for Anglo-catholic sensitivities. On its own the BCP office has massive and very probably insurmountable weaknesses due to the fact that most seasons, feasts and vigils are completely ignored and there are no antiphons.

I know a lot of ACs who use Prayer Book offices now and then, myself included, but only by way of an 'occasional discipline'.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Oblatus
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As far as public praying of the Office is concerned, I'd say the various official BCPs (1662 in England, 1979 in the USA, etc.) are well used in Anglo-Catholic parishes to keep the full daily liturgy comprising Morning Prayer, Mass, and Evening Prayer. The Office admits of fewer observances because at its core is the recitation of the whole Psalter and the in-course reading of most of the Bible. A typical lesser feast affects the Mass but not usually at the Office unless a related patristic reading is used at one of the Offices.

On major and principal feasts, the psalm and scripture cycles are interrupted, and the officiant can add antiphons from a reliable source (in the USA, there's A Prayer Book Office, for instance, or I sometimes use the Monastic Diurnal).

While a BCP office may not be Anglo-Catholic in terms of a wealth of antiphons and responsories, it is a very manageable way for an A-C parish to offer the full daily liturgy in the church, in common. That's very Anglo-Catholic, IMHO.

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The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

There certainly is, and it is a part of Matins, it just doesn't appear to form its conclusion, contrary to what I had previosuly been told. (I'm sorry for the confusion with subject and verb in my earlier post).
Michael Astley, the OCA place near me serves a Vigil for the Resurrection every Saturday evening. From what I can piece together they basically follow the Soroka prayer booklets for Vespers and Matins.* I never poke my nose in a prayer book when I'm at an Orthodox service, so I have to grub through the books when I get home, matching the music I remember to the text in the Soroka prayer books.

This is how Matins ends up at this OCA place. I write out much more of this than is reasonably necessary, but I don't know the form and I don't know how to indicate what takes place in an abbreviated fashion.
  • Glory to you who has shown us the light!
  • Great Doxology (Gloria to God in the highest)
  • Everyday I will bless you** and praise your name for ever, unto ages of ages!
  • Vouchsafe, O Lord to keep us this day without sin.
  • Blessed are you, O Lord God of our fathers and glorified is your name forever. Amen.
  • Let your mercy, O Lord, be upon us as we have set our hope on you!
  • Blessed are you, O Lord, teach me your statutes X 3
  • Lord, you have been our refuge from generation to generation. I said: Lord have mercy on me; heal my soul, for I have sinned against you. Lord, I flee to you! Teach me to do your will, for your are my God. For with you is the well of life; in your light we shall see light! Continue your loving kindness on those who know you!
  • Trisagion X 2 (Holy God, Holy Mighty)
  • Glory to the Father...Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.
  • Trisagion X 1
  • Troparion of the Resurrection (Today salvation has come to the world! Let us sing to him who rose from the dead, the Author of Life! Having destroyed death by death, he has given us victory and great mercy)
  • Litany of Fervent Supplication (Have mercy on us, O God, according to your great goodness, we pray you, hearken and have mercy, etc.)
  • The Litany of Supplication (Morning Litany) (Let us complete our morning prayer to the Lord)
  • The Prayer at the Bowing of the Heads (O Holy Lord, dwelling in the highest, regarding the humble of heart, etc.)
  • Wisdom! Master Bless!
  • Christ our God, the Existing One...
  • Confirm, O God, the holy Orthodox Faith and Orthodox Christians, unto ages of ages.
  • Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • More honorable...
  • Glory to you, O Christ, our god, and our hope, glory to you.
  • Glory to the Father. Master bless!
  • May Christ our true God, etc.
  • Reverence of the icons and kissing of the cross by orders.
The music sets up a tremendous climatic urgency all through the Great Doxology.

This pace seems to pick up even more from "Every day will I bless you" through to the confident conclusion of "Continue your lovingkindness to those who know you."

Then there is a bare comma before the choir charges into the Trisagion at a pace only slightly more restrained than the preceding.

The pace then lets up so that the Troparion of the Resurrection is almost a little courtly dance.

Then the usual pace for the litanies and all the rest is used.


The point of all this explanation is to say that the Great Doxology seems the climax of the service. There is a greater urgency that wells up beneath even the fervid pace of the singing. And, it seems that urgency is only increased until we all arrive at the Troparion when the Great Truth is stated simply in a restrained courtly dance: "Today salvation has come to the world!...He has given us victory and great mercy!"


If I convert to Orthodoxy before I die, it will be because of the masterful and moving evangelical urgency of the Great Doxology coupled with the pleas for mercy that rush in upon its heels. Oddly enough, I can take or leave the Divine Liturgy (probably because I'm not fed), but it is the Vigil for the Resurrection that positively compels me.


* Matins (ISBN 1-878997-42-4) and Great Vesper (ISBN 1-878997-40-8), both Adapted and Compiled by Rev. Igor Soroka, St. Tikhon's Seminary Press; South Canaan, Pennsylvania 18459, USA; 1992.

** The priest does an "on-the-fly" translation of all the Thees 'n' Thous into modern English. It is most amazing to hear him do it for the Canon of St. Andrew read out from Mother Mary & Kallistos Ware's edition.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
As far as public praying of the Office is concerned, I'd say the various official BCPs (1662 in England, 1979 in the USA, etc.) are well used in Anglo-Catholic parishes to keep the full daily liturgy comprising Morning Prayer, Mass, and Evening Prayer. The Office admits of fewer observances because at its core is the recitation of the whole Psalter and the in-course reading of most of the Bible. A typical lesser feast affects the Mass but not usually at the Office unless a related patristic reading is used at one of the Offices.

On major and principal feasts, the psalm and scripture cycles are interrupted, and the officiant can add antiphons from a reliable source (in the USA, there's A Prayer Book Office, for instance, or I sometimes use the Monastic Diurnal).

While a BCP office may not be Anglo-Catholic in terms of a wealth of antiphons and responsories, it is a very manageable way for an A-C parish to offer the full daily liturgy in the church, in common. That's very Anglo-Catholic, IMHO.

I suppose it all depends how you define 'anglo-catholic', and what side of the Pond you're on. Over here, I would guess that the vast majority of anglo-catholic priests, a few laypeople, and many others who wouldn't call themselves a-c, got used to the Roman Catholic Divine Office soon after its publication. The C of E, first unofficially (Celebrating Common Prayer) and then officially (Common Worship: Daily Prayer) eventually caught up with things and the latter office is very similar (antiphons, canticles, structure) to the Breviary. Hence it should be satisfactory for most anglo-catholics, but my guess is that many haven't bothered to change, or have an ideological preference for a Vatican-approved version.

Oblatus is right, that where the office is recited publicly, the BCP version is often preferred. That applies to Sunday Evensong in many parishes.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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OK - my experience is obviously strange, I keep being told so by Eccles ...

The churches I've attended regularly that say the offices publicly have used Celebrating Common Prayer and latterly Common Worship: Daily Prayer. We're also encouraged, as a parish, to use the Reflections for Daily Prayer for personal devotions, which is based on the CW:DP Morning Prayer office readings.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Bishops Finger
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I've mentioned before that we use the Franciscan Daily Office, given that our parish priest and several members of the congregation are Members of the Third Order of the Society of St. Francis. It is, however, very similar to the Common Worship Office, and fits very well with our Anglo-Catholic ethos. One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........ [Roll Eyes]

Recalling that we are C of E, therefore, Sunday Matins is firmly 1662 BCP, by the book. None of yer Carflick accretions 'ere!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........ [Roll Eyes]

That's a definite cross-pond difference. While some individual U.S. Episcopalians (including me sometimes) avail themselves of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, use of RC books in churches is practically unheard of...very few exceptions, and I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.
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