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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I was under the impression the robe + stole combo had become standard fare (and probably already a given) for MOTR and higher Presbyterians and Methodists.
I know of some Presbyterians venturing into alb + stole, or faking it in white Geneva robes. Methodists in chasuble are not unheard of, OTOH.
As a Presby seminarian myself (and who already inherited a Geneva robe from a Presby minister who dived the Thames), I have a soft spot for the black robe + stole look, but I may end up also getting an alb (probably this one) for those Brazilian summer days.
BTW, I found that Australian minister's pic, but the crests on the tippet are the denom's one, not his Alma Mater's. I don't know when would one wear it instead of a stole, though. Presbytery/Synod/GA assemblies?
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Around the UCCan Alb and Stole is the norm, with Robe and Stole as a second. With the advent of modern heating and the tendency to crank it up for the older members, robes get really hot.
During the slow summer months in non air-conditioned churches, which is most churches in Southern Ontario, many ministers will just wear clericals. It can get quite humid around here in July and August, though nothing like Brazil, of course.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I am still researching on when did Reformed, Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationals (oh yeah, and the odd Baptist) start hanging priestly stoles around their non-priestly necks.
The only new lead I got was this article hinting that the military chaplains started it during WW2 and it sort of caught on when they came back (last two pararaphs).
The one stating there is a print of John Knox wearing one got me baffled. Closest thing I managed to google was of him with a reddish thing over his neck, but IMO it's likely to be just his robe's fur lining, pretty much like what Calvin wore. This is replaced by the velvet panels on current American-design Geneva robes.
And the robe + stole phenomenon seems to be a (mostly) mainline American thing; European Reformed seem to do strictly black robe (German design) OR alb + stole. Don't know what Kirk, URC and the free church guys and gals wear in Britain, though. Can anyone enlighten us? What about the United/Uniting (and their non-uniting counterparts) peeps around the globe?
And what about the headgear to go with it? Modern academic caps? A biretta? A Canterbury cap? A simple beret?
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
In British Methodism some, but by no means all, presbyters wear stoles. Of those that do, you can see them worn over alb, cassock (generally, but not exclusively black) or cassock + gown. Methodism being Methodism there are bound to be other permutations too.
As a probationer, I don't wear the stole but I do wear an alb on appropriate occasions.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I've never seen a minster wear a hat to lead a service in the UCCan. The only picture of a hatted minister I have ever seen was Rev. Lydia Gruchy in 1936, who wore a Canterbury cap to preach along with Geneva gown and stole.
You're probably right about the military increasing use of the stole. This may have affected Canada earlier since we entered WWI in 1914.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Tat inquiry about TEC and Anglicanism in general:
What's up with the crozier in Anglican liturgies with a bishop present? One never seems to see the same practice twice. I was watching the Ash Wednesday Eucharist from Washington National Cathedral, and Bishop Chane hardly seems to let go of his crozier. I'm not accustomed to croziers at all, but it seems odd for a bishop to hold it during a prayer, unless it is a prayer of blessing.
In the past, were there any well-established rules, or has it always been a free-for-all.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
?
[pardon my punctuation]
Another tat inquiry:
If anybody has seen the Ash Wednesday liturgy from the National Cathedral, is it usual for bishops to preside at the Great Thanksgiving wearing what Bishop Chane wore?
[ 26. February 2010, 00:36: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Tat inquiry about TEC and Anglicanism in general:
What's up with the crozier in Anglican liturgies with a bishop present? One never seems to see the same practice twice. I was watching the Ash Wednesday Eucharist from Washington National Cathedral, and Bishop Chane hardly seems to let go of his crozier. I'm not accustomed to croziers at all, but it seems odd for a bishop to hold it during a prayer, unless it is a prayer of blessing.
In the past, were there any well-established rules, or has it always been a free-for-all.
I did not see Bishop Chane doing his bit on Ash Wednesday, so I cannot comment on that. When it comes to Episcopal Ceremonial there are two or three books around which bishops can refer to, but the question is - will they?
The consensus between the various texts seems to be that the bishop carries his crozier in procession, and holds it:
* during the Gospel at Mass
* for the absolution at Mass
* when the bishop gives a blessing in the course of the liturgy.
It is held by his chaplain during the interogations at confirmations and ordinations. Otherwise, you prop it up somewhere handy and forget about it.
That would be a fair summary of what I do with my crozier, but I may just be adding another personal variant on the theme.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
That would be a fair summary of what I do with my crozier, but I may just be adding another personal variant on the theme.
PD
Thanks, PD. What you mention is basically what I'm familiar with, too. However, I have seen more than one liturgy webcast with Bishop Chane celebrating, and he tends to hold on tight to his crozier all the way through the Entrance Rite. In the case of Ash Wednesday, he held it practically in front of himself, while standing behind the altar and reading the collect of the day. Even when the Entrance Rite is longer, he still clutches onto it through the collect.
Here is the link for the liturgy in question. I'm surprised he didn't "dress for dinner," but instead wore rochet and chimere [...I think...] with a violet stole on top.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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highchurc
Shipmate
# 11491
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Bishop Chane ... he tends to hold on tight to his crozier all the way through the Entrance Rite. I'm surprised he didn't "dress for dinner," but instead wore rochet and chimere with a violet stole on top.
What's with bishops wearing a stole with rochet and chimere? Is it choir dress with a sprinkling of liturgical dress thrown in? Which is it?
Also, what's with bishops' carrying crosiers with the right hand? What if a worshipper knelt for a blessing as the bishop was passing by?
Posts: 234 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Pray that it's a left-handed bishop?
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The rochet, chimere, and stole thing I associate with a certain variety of MOTR-Low churchmanship. The bishop of our Eastern Diocese does this quite regularly, usually on occasions when I would wear rochet, stole, cope and possibly mitre. I have to admit that I tend to wear whatever vestments are needed for the service that preceeds or follows the Ashing. So if the ashes are imposed in the context of the Eucharist, Mass vestments, and at Morning and Evening Prayer I would usually be in rochet, chimere, and tippet.
The crozier should always be held in the left hand when in procession and used as a walking stick - not a flag. In most of the parishes I am familiar with, the members of the congregation generally don't kneel for the bishops blessing. However, it pays to keep your eye out for the one or two who do. There is an outside chance you might make someone's day.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
In most of the parishes I am familiar with, the members of the congregation generally don't kneel for the bishops blessing. However, it pays to keep your eye out for the one or two who do. There is an outside chance you might make someone's day.
PD
Some people, me included, are happy to accept a bishop's blessing--making the sign of the cross upon ourselves--but we tend not to kneel. [I think it's a Lutheran thing.]
The last time I visited a nosebleed high place with a bishop as celebrant, the poor woman in seated near me knelt left at least seven times (each time as the bishop passed), looking longingly at him for the blessing. He finally blessed us in the currently-expected Roman place (during the closing hymn) instead of during the bishop's entrance.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ChaliceGirl
Shipmate
# 13656
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Posted
I didn't know the crozier had to be in the left hand- I never noticed that!
I've seen people in the Anglican/Episcopal church make a slight bow when a bishop passes by as a sign of respect. I've never seen kneeling.
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Posts: 710 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Apr 2008
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highchurc
Shipmate
# 11491
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
I didn't know the crozier had to be in the left hand- I never noticed that!
I've seen people in the Anglican/Episcopal church make a slight bow when a bishop passes by as a sign of respect. I've never seen kneeling.
The crozier is held in the left hand thus freeing the right hand for blessing.
Discerning Episcopalians genuflect on the left knee to the bishop; the right knee, of course, is saved for the Blesséd Sacrament.
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I am still researching on when did Reformed, Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationals (oh yeah, and the odd Baptist) start hanging priestly stoles around their non-priestly necks.
The only new lead I got was this article hinting that the military chaplains started it during WW2 and it sort of caught on when they came back (last two pararaphs).
The one stating there is a print of John Knox wearing one got me baffled. Closest thing I managed to google was of him with a reddish thing over his neck, but IMO it's likely to be just his robe's fur lining, pretty much like what Calvin wore. This is replaced by the velvet panels on current American-design Geneva robes.
And the robe + stole phenomenon seems to be a (mostly) mainline American thing; European Reformed seem to do strictly black robe (German design) OR alb + stole. Don't know what Kirk, URC and the free church guys and gals wear in Britain, though. Can anyone enlighten us? What about the United/Uniting (and their non-uniting counterparts) peeps around the globe?
And what about the headgear to go with it? Modern academic caps? A biretta? A Canterbury cap? A simple beret?
Having worshipped in churches of Presbyterian and Methodist heritage, I can simply say that the whole "white Geneva robe" business in my side of the globe is a means of acclimatizing (we're in the Tropics, too). The sartorial norms in the local United Church have been fairly flexible. The minimum is a stole over street dress/clericals for some, others wear alb+stole, others white Geneva gown+stole, yet others chasuble-albs (!!!)+ stole (nearest tat shop just happens to be an RC supply shop). Cassocks are not unheard-of, although these will suffice in lieu of the white robe.
As for when they started wearing stoles here (i.e. Reformed types), I suppose they followed their Mainline counterparts in the US (Protestantism here having been brought with the American colonial project of 1898 under Bill McKinley).
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by highchurc:
quote:
Originally posted by ChaliceGirl:
I didn't know the crozier had to be in the left hand- I never noticed that!
I've seen people in the Anglican/Episcopal church make a slight bow when a bishop passes by as a sign of respect. I've never seen kneeling.
The crozier is held in the left hand thus freeing the right hand for blessing.
Discerning Episcopalians genuflect on the left knee to the bishop; the right knee, of course, is saved for the Blesséd Sacrament.
Perhaps discerning Episcopalians are inclined to do such a thing. Not Catholics, however, as no approved author indicates any sort of left-knee genuflection, for bishops, the cross of the altar, or anything else.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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highchurc
Shipmate
# 11491
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
...no approved author indicates any sort of left-knee genuflection, for bishops, the cross of the altar, or anything else.
I wouldn't think that any author, approved or not, would ordinarily indicate any type of genuflection towards the cross of the altar, or anything else, as you say.
A left knee genuflection is usual towards a bishop, however, in some Anglican Parishes. [Others barely acknowledge that he is there!]
This can be seen with the Gospel party as it sets off from the throne, after the Deacon is blessed and the bishop has placed incense in the thurible.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
At All Saints Margaret Street one of the ceremonial boffins instructed us to do a left knee genuflection to the Archbp of Canterbury at the time of his visitation last All Saints day; IME this is not done in respect to other bishops visiting that parish.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
At All Saints Margaret Street one of the ceremonial boffins instructed us to do a left knee genuflection to the Archbp of Canterbury at the time of his visitation last All Saints day; IME this is not done in respect to other bishops visiting that parish.
Maybe they knelt on the left because they know he's not right... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by highchurc:
A left knee genuflection is usual towards a bishop, however, in some Anglican Parishes.
Ah, it's just a local custom then.
Catholic practice, as Magic Wand points out, knows nothing of this local custom. Indeed, Catholic practice laid out precisely who should receive a genuflection, and it was not any old bishop who popped up: it was only to the bishop in his own diocese, the Metropolitan in his Province, the Apostolic Delegate or Nuncio in his jurisdiction and a Papal Legate. Cardinals were the only ones to be greeted with a genuflection wherever they appeared.
Furthermore, Catholic custom also dictated that the ministers genuflected to the altar whenever passing it. The celebrant, however, only did so if the Blessed Sacrament was reserved there.
All of these genuflections were done in exactly the same way: on the right knee. The only variation on the genuflection was the double genuflection before the Blessed Sacrament exposed.
Funny old thing, local custom.
[ 28. February 2010, 23:32: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Oh, and by the way, a genuflection (on the right knee, as usual) was also prescribed for a relic of the True Cross and the Cross exposed for veneration on Good Friday.
So in Catholic custom a genuflection on the right kneed was never "reserved for the Blessed Sacrament". As we know, however, local custom invents all sorts of things. Even in the most discerning of episcopalian parishes it seems.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth
Perhaps there is something else to put on other than a cotta or surplice. What about a rochet? Not the lacy kind with the red sleeves, but rather a winged or a sleeved rochet. A simple sleeved rochet may be nice under a cope especially at a baptism, and maybe a winged rochet could be worn at other times outside of choir?
Copied over from the White Dress thread.
[ 12. March 2010, 21:55: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have only ever seen the winged rochet used by choirmasters and organists, and perhaps once by the server at a midweek Mass. The sleeved rochet I associate with Anglican bishops, some of whom have abandoned the ruffled sleeves of the baroque era in favour of a garment with a an alb like sleeve.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Whitworth
Apprentice
# 12579
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Posted
St. Percy does make mention of the winged and sleeved rochet in the handbook.
Posts: 27 | From: British North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
St. Percy does make mention of the winged and sleeved rochet in the handbook.
And the sleeveless rochet as well - very useful for thurifers...
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Whitworth
Apprentice
# 12579
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Posted
I prefer the Gothic/Sarum style; I'm just considering alternatives to always wearing the full surplice.
Posts: 27 | From: British North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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Whitworth
Apprentice
# 12579
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Posted
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?
Posts: 27 | From: British North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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Whitworth
Apprentice
# 12579
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Posted
I don’t believe one would use Lenten array and Rose together. I suppose in the English tradition one would continue with ashen white for Laetare Sunday until Passion Sunday when Passion-Tide Red would be worn?
Posts: 27 | From: British North America | Registered: Apr 2007
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ST
Shipmate
# 14600
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some.
Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?
According to Latin Mass Society, Rose Vestments were first prescribed by Caerimoniale Episcoporum which is dated by Google Books as published in 1606.
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
I don’t believe one would use Lenten array and Rose together. I suppose in the English tradition one would continue with ashen white for Laetare Sunday until Passion Sunday when Passion-Tide Red would be worn?
From what I remember, that is what happens. While at college I did offer to lend the vice-principal my rose chasuble to replace the lenten array, but he wasn't having it.
[ 16. March 2010, 23:15: Message edited by: nowsouthwest ]
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Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
Posts: 114 | From: No longer in the South-west of the UK! | Registered: Feb 2009
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Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162
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Posted
Originally posted by Whitworth
I don’t believe one would use Lenten array and Rose together. I suppose in the English tradition one would continue with ashen white for Laetare Sunday until Passion Sunday when Passion-Tide Red would be worn?
Absolutely correct!
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nowsouthwest:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
With the brain power on this ship this should be an easy question for some.
Is anyone aware of about when Rose vestments began to be used and where they originated?
According to Latin Mass Society, Rose Vestments were first prescribed by Caerimoniale Episcoporum which is dated by Google Books as published in 1606.
Nice answer!... And good to have you on board ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Also, thanks for the reminder to get the Passiontide Red out of the sacristy bottom draw! I forgot to do that one year and found the set we use for the martyrs and Pentecost on the altar instead - it was way toobright for Passionide.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Evanglion
Apprentice
# 15526
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Posted
A request for advice from all Tat Experts.
Our Stations of the Cross have faded almost to nothing - they were never very good anyway! Consequently we wish to replace them. Our spec is: about 12" x 9" in size, traditional in design, fitting for a medieval Grade 1 Listed church and sourced within the EU (otherwise the import taxes tend to be high).
We are looking at ceramics at the moment but any advice would be gratefully accepted. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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ST
Shipmate
# 14600
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Posted
It's good to be here and finally getting round to posting a bit more!
PD, if only we had Passiontide Red in any of my churches - but that's another matter...
[Code fix & duplicate post deletion, T², Eccles Host]
[ 18. March 2010, 18:35: Message edited by: Think² ]
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Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nowsouthwest:
It's good to be here and finally getting round to posting a bit more!
PD, if only we had Passiontide Red in any of my churches - but that's another matter...
[Code fix & duplicate post deletion, T², Eccles Host]
We went back to Passiontide red in 2008 after we had moved into a larger building. Until 2007, we were pretty much the standard "Ritual Notes and Water" that applies to Prayer Book Catholic parishes in the USA. Since then we have become a bit more self-consciously "Anglican Use."
On the whole it has been easiest to change the special/seasonal liturgies, so that is where I started. Images were veiled on Ash Wednesday before MP rather than on Lent V and Passiontide Red introduced from Lent V. I have not yet introduced Lent Array, but it may appear in the next year or two when the money situation improves.
The slowest going has been changing the ceremonial at the main Sunday Mass, but that has happened over the last six months. The American (English) Use approach is unusual in the USA, but not unknown. The one change I have not made is sustituting bows where genuflections are usual in high-ish parishes over here. My instinct is that addressing that issue would be a bridge too far for most folks.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The Pallium. Its been mentioned on the interesting thread in Purg on Our Lady as Priest.
Wikipedia is saying
"originally peculiar to the Pope, but for many centuries bestowed by him on metropolitans and primates"
But then in the mosaic in that blog pic Our Lady has a pallium.
Is it used for lay people too? Anyone know much about it?
I wondered if in some art saints after death are shown wearing the pallium.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted on the Random Questions Thread by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Quick photo question: does this chap's vesture seem familiar to Eccolytes? Or, what exactly is he wearing? I can see a stole, but is that a chasuble underneath?
(I got it from the official site of the Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church. Subject of the photo is their first bishop, Juan Bautista Cabrera).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, at first sight it looks to be a nice flowing surplice - but there's what appears to be a bit of lacy cotta (?) beneath......
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Ian J.
Exactly.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
OTOH, could it perhaps be a surplice which has been split at the sides so as to show a lacy inner lining? (The purpose of which escapes me......)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Looks to me like an oddly designed cope or degree gown over the top of a cotta. It is rather like the garments worn by the front row here.
[ 15. May 2010, 18:13: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Did I once read that some early high churchmen in the Church of England would wear an unlined chasuble which was made from linen/cotton and which, to the casual observer, would appear to be a surplice? This was in order to avoid controversy.
Could something similar be what is depicted in this photograph? I know nothing of the Sapnish Reformed Episcopal Church or its history but I am just guessing.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Looks to me like an oddly designed cope or degree gown over the top of a cotta. It is rather like the garments worn by the front row here.
I don't see any picture like that???
And Michael - the use of the hood over the whatever-it-is would support your interpretation. Especially if the 'stole' were actually a tippet.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Copied from the Random Questions thread: quote:
Originally posted by CJ:
A bizarre piece of tat I'd never seen before appeared at evensong this evening - a shoulder cape made of (fake, though convincing) fur which I was told was a prebendery's amice. I was very confused but I seem to have misheard for on searching I find it was probably an almuce.
This was shorter than those shown in the link but did have the same tails hanging down. Very bizarre looking object indeed.
Has anyone come across this in an Anglican setting before? This was just a village church evensong - though festal both for Pentecost and as a celebration of 25 years of Reader ministry.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Copied from the Random Questions thread: quote:
Originally posted by CJ:
A bizarre piece of tat I'd never seen before appeared at evensong this evening - a shoulder cape made of (fake, though convincing) fur which I was told was a prebendery's amice. I was very confused but I seem to have misheard for on searching I find it was probably an almuce.
This was shorter than those shown in the link but did have the same tails hanging down. Very bizarre looking object indeed.
Has anyone come across this in an Anglican setting before? This was just a village church evensong - though festal both for Pentecost and as a celebration of 25 years of Reader ministry.
Almuce is sometimes spelt Almess, which might be part of the problem. In form it was a short fur cape with scarf like pieces hanging down at the front. In England the cape part was gradually cut away and the scarf like pieces became longer and wider until it eventually looked like a fur tippet with rounded ends. On the continent the scarf-like bits disappeared and it evolved into a fur mozetta.
From what you describe I would say that the chap you met has revived shape current c. 1400. Some years ago a couple of cathedrals revived the almuce in its sixteenth century form, but the fad passed.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Not
Ship's Quack
# 2166
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Posted
Thanks PD, this was mozetta length but open at the front.
Not a garment that flatters the wearer really - or one that's ideal on a very warm May evening!
Cj
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Was CJ; now Not
Posts: 600 | From: the far, far West | Registered: Jan 2002
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ST
Shipmate
# 14600
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Looks to me like an oddly designed cope or degree gown over the top of a cotta. It is rather like the garments worn by the front row here.
Zooming in on it a bit, it looks like a chasuble with a very strange cope-like collar and trim down the front to look like a cope. But it definitely looks poncho-like.
Why you would wear something like that over a lacy cotta (unless in a procession of the Blessed Sacrament on Corpus Christi) is anyone's guess!
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Formerly nowsouthwest - but moved!
Posts: 114 | From: No longer in the South-west of the UK! | Registered: Feb 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
In our "Middle of the Road" Anglican Church, we have rediscovered three chasubles which were (for reasons unknown) folded away in a box some years ago (at the moment, people seem to think that it's been over 10 years since they were last used).
I am slightly puzzled by two of them. The green one is pretty obvious(!) but the other two are as follows:
* one is a dark blue, with a gold cross on the back.
* the other is plain linen (off-white/cream), with light blue crosses back and front
What would they have been used for?
My guess at the moment is that the blue one might have been used for Advent and the plain linen one for Lent, but the light blue crosses are puzzling me.
And, if my guesses are correct, would it be unusual to have these three but nothing in red or gold?
(There is also a rather glorious cope that was rolled into a ball and stuffed at the back of a shelf!)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162
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Posted
Your guess is correct. Blue ornamentation on Lenten array is not unknown, with nice examples at Newcastle Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, although red and black is probably slightly more common.
Get them back into use as soon as possible!
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 848 | From: England, 1549 | Registered: May 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Your guess is correct. Blue ornamentation on Lenten array is not unknown, with nice examples at Newcastle Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, although red and black is probably slightly more common.
Get them back into use as soon as possible!
SS
Thanks.
Still somewhat concerned that we now have chasubles for Ordinary Time, Lent and Advent, but nothing for Christmas, Easter or Pentecost!
I shall dig a little deeper and see if I can find out if there were other chasubles.
Failing that - is there somewhere I can buy second hand chasubles?????
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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