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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
...Is anyone here following the Republican side of things? What's he doing back in New Hampshire?
McCain is most likely getting on with the November presidential election while the two Dem front-runners are busy exchanging insults. The next 6 weeks are going to be interesting with the Penn primary so far away.
I thought it was hysterical this week when Clinton floated the possibility of her and Obama on the same ticket. Nevermind Obama "isn't as qualified as McCain to be President" and Obama is leading the race for nomination. Will definitely be catching "Countdown" on MSNBC this evening.
Sic 'em, Olbermann!
[ 12. March 2008, 22:58: Message edited by: Gort ]
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Sic 'em, Olbermann!
Video here. (click "Olbermann on Ferraro uproar")
He's probably preaching to the choir, but still... Ouch! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) If that isn't the TV version of a call to Hell, I don't know what is.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
[qb] ...Is anyone here following the Republican side of things? What's he doing back in New Hampshire?
McCain is most likely getting on with the November presidential election while the two Dem front-runners are busy exchanging insults.
McCain is probably trying to figure out how to get six column-inches on page three, or 30 seconds on the six o'clock news. He's not a story at the moment.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Yeah, 'cause, you know it's not entertaining to hear substantive topical discussion. Meanwhile, Rome burns.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I know far too much about escort agencies in New York then I really wanted to know.
On another note, why does it take soooo long for the Clinton camp to back down on anything and fire somebody?
Hubris?
Fear?
Ferraro did a good hatchet attack job for a few days there and nobody called her to task.
Meanwhile, people, well really the media, are worrying about the exact tone and meaning of words used for how candidates feel about mistakes.
If I wasn't seeing this creeping up north here, I'd be a bit more sanguine.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Ferraro pot, meet kettle.
She accuses Obama of brandishing the race card.
Uh, lady, that was *you* who brandished said race card.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
McCain is probably trying to figure out how to get six column-inches on page three, or 30 seconds on the six o'clock news. He's not a story at the moment.
This seems to be it. He got less than six column-inches on page four of the Lawrence Eagle-Tribune.
At least in the print copy I got, which ended about one-third of the way down the on-line version, at "We are reuniting our party and we've got to re-energize it," he told a crowd of several hundred.".
It's very interesting to discover that the printed paper I receive at home doesn't include the full text of articles.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cqg:
Ferraro pot, meet kettle.
She accuses Obama of brandishing the race card.
Uh, lady, that was *you* who brandished said race card.
Love the idea that the electorate is giving a black man affirmative action by voting for him. Hilarious! What a bunch of idiots. Gerry Ferraro's gone mad.
The Clinton campaign should be utterly ashamed of itself. It's been playing the race card (the ugliest one in the deck) subtly whenever it can through its proxies. I'm so sick of it. In today's Post there was a story about the Ferraro flap in which a Georgetown professor who sat on the fence for a while because she so admired Hillary (but is now an Obama supporter) spoke for many of us:
quote:
Georgetown law professor Emma Coleman Jordan, an Obama supporter who sat on the fence for a long time because she so admired Hillary Clinton, sees the Ferraro episode as "part of a systematic project" to raise Obama's negatives. "It is so sad that we've come to this," she said, "that a Democratic Party liberal [Clinton] has chosen to pick up the dirtiest tool in the political box to win. I'm sad. You can put that in a quote. But it's no longer possible to avoid the conclusion that this string of events is not an accident."
That's pretty much how I feel.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
McCain is probably trying to figure out how to get six column-inches on page three, or 30 seconds on the six o'clock news. He's not a story at the moment.
I think he should try walking naked in Times Square or being the hooker for Client #8 or similar and see how that works (I understand it does get you lots of hits on your MySpace page!!)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
McCain is probably trying to figure out how to get six column-inches on page three, or 30 seconds on the six o'clock news. He's not a story at the moment.
I think he should try walking naked in Times Square or being the hooker for Client #8 or similar and see how that works (I understand it does get you lots of hits on your MySpace page!!)
He got a mention on BBC Radio news this morning, for criticising Britain pulling troops out of Iraq. It also appears in the Daily Telegraph. Typical, he gets reported over here.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
McCain is probably trying to figure out how to get six column-inches on page three, or 30 seconds on the six o'clock news. He's not a story at the moment.
I think he should try walking naked in Times Square or being the hooker for Client #8 or similar and see how that works (I understand it does get you lots of hits on your MySpace page!!)
Wasn't it Napolean who said, "If your enemey is bent on destroying himself, don't get in his way"? ISTM that McCain can benefit by just raising money, mending fences, and staying out of the Dems' way right now...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
{url=http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/blogs/wolcott/2008/03/ive-never-bough.html]James Wolcott, eriting in Vanity Fair writer[/url] seesm to think that the Republicans have suckered the Democrats into nominating Obama by pretending that they think he will be harder to beat than Clinton. So, less angrily, does someone or other in the Village Voice. The Huffington Post has some rather stringy examples of Obama being negative and "playing the race card" (steering pretty near racism themselves IMNSHO but I get grumpy with websites that make my computer thrash) and The Left Coaster is slighly more backed-uply partisan.
Round up the usual suspects!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Hmm. Well, there is plenty of polling on the subject here (Obama v. McCain) and here (Clinton v. McCain). At the moment, either candidate is favored against McCain, but only by 1.5 points - a statistical tie. This may have as much to do with McCain being out of the news (and the news on the two Democratic candidates turning uglier) than anything else. Scrolling down, you can see the historical results, and it does seem that Obama has a better track record in polling vs. McCain than Clinton, on average. Of course, any poll is just a snapshot of opinion taken at that time - i.e. past performance does not guarrantee future return.
But I think if there is a Republican Plot to put Obama over the top, thinking he is the weaker candidate, then 1) they aren't paying attention and 2) they aren't working hard enough, dammit.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
Speaking of the Huffington Post, here's a piece by Obama himself: On My Faith and My Church, written in response to controversial sermons by his (now retired) pastor.
Classy as hell, IMO. Barack is able to distance himself from his pastor's comments, but he does it in such a way that does not question his pastor's commitment to Christian ideals, and nor does Obama throw his pastor under a bus for the sake of political expediency.
Well spoken, sir.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Speaking of the Huffington Post, here's a piece by Obama himself: On My Faith and My Church, written in response to controversial sermons by his (now retired) pastor.
Classy as hell, IMO. Barack is able to distance himself from his pastor's comments, but he does it in such a way that does not question his pastor's commitment to Christian ideals, and nor does Obama throw his pastor under a bus for the sake of political expediency.
Well spoken, sir.
How can he possibly claim to have been unaware of Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric until he began his presidential campaign? The man who married him? Baptised his kids? Preached to him on Sundays for twenty years? Inspired the title of one of his books?
I have known the name and ideological reputation of Wright for at least several years and I'm the demographic doppelganger to Barack Obama.
I call bullshite.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
How can he possibly claim to have been unaware of Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric until he began his presidential campaign?...
Let's be specific, romanlion, just as Obama was: quote:
The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign.
[my bold]
No doubt, Wright has a history of inflammatory political commentary but it's not unusual for members of a church to disavow their leader's political ideology in favor of their spiritual leadership, which Wright obviously commands. How many here accept unconditionally all opinions of their pastors/priests? Do you, romanlion?
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
As much as I respect him, I don't agree with everything that falls from the mouth of my Rector, that's for sure. Who would expect to?
[ 15. March 2008, 01:56: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
How can he possibly claim to have been unaware of Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric until he began his presidential campaign?...
Let's be specific, romanlion, just as Obama was: quote:
The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign.
[my bold]
No doubt, Wright has a history of inflammatory political commentary but it's not unusual for members of a church to disavow their leader's political ideology in favor of their spiritual leadership, which Wright obviously commands. How many here accept unconditionally all opinions of their pastors/priests? Do you, romanlion?
Obama's response is too clever by half. Crafted to be general enough to apply to any "new" inflammatory statements that they new would surface once this got rolling, it puts him in the position of having to flatly deny knowledge of the general culture of the church he attends.
This will be impossible.
The "statements that are the cause of this controversy" are not isolated. The "God damn America" attitude is pervasive at Trinity. Combined with the statements of his wife, this presents huge problems for Obama. IMO you can grab your butter and jam, cause the boy is toast.
As an answer to your question...obviously not.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
I'm sick to death of religious organizations and their leaders injecting bigoted commentary into the most fundamental process of our nation. There was a reason our founding fathers supported a separation of church and state and this latest dust-up is a prime example of why they were so adamant. Whatever method an individual acquires moral virtue, the action of the individual should speak to their position on political issues and not the voice of the organization that helped the individual develop spiritual awareness.
A person's spiritual development should be a private matter and as such should never be waved about as a banner or bludgeon in democratic discourse [or any discourse, for that matter]. Action speaks louder than words.
The problem with religous organizations directing the affairs of democracy is that the hierarchy of those organizations are not appointed democratically. Those leaders reach their positions through any number of internal power struggles, cults of personality or hidden political intrigue. That our democracy should be creeping towards the same methods for choosing its leaders reflects the damnable influence of modern religious bigotry.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Obama's response is too clever by half. Crafted to be general enough to apply to any "new" inflammatory statements that they new would surface once this got rolling, it puts him in the position of having to flatly deny knowledge of the general culture of the church he attends.
This will be impossible.
The "statements that are the cause of this controversy" are not isolated. The "God damn America" attitude is pervasive at Trinity. Combined with the statements of his wife, this presents huge problems for Obama. IMO you can grab your butter and jam, cause the boy is toast.
Ah, an arch conservative smacking a left-center candidate. Quelle surprise.
May I suggest also that calling a black man "boy" rather shows off something unpleasant about yourself?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
Obama's a goner. Believe you me, all the undecideds will believe he's a closet white-hater. No one goes to a church where a guy spews what Wright does without agreeing with it.
Otherwise you leave; there are plenty of churches out there.
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Obama's a goner. Believe you me, all the undecideds will believe he's a closet white-hater. No one goes to a church where a guy spews what Wright does without agreeing with it.
Otherwise you leave; there are plenty of churches out there.
the Pookah
Yes, it sure looks that way. Spending twenty years there seems more of a problem than dropping by to deliver a speech at Bob Jones University while trying to win a SC primary and is as legitimate to question as Mitt Romney was about things Mormon.
The bloom is off the rose.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Obama's a goner. Believe you me, all the undecideds will believe he's a closet white-hater. No one goes to a church where a guy spews what Wright does without agreeing with it.
Otherwise you leave; there are plenty of churches out there.
I'm not sure I agree with this, assuming your comment is a serious one, even given cultural differences between my country and the US. People go to church for many reasons. In the 20 years Obama has been attending Trinity he will have formed longstanding and deep relationships with others who go there. His children no doubt will have attended the church and become involved in its activities. There is the issue of constancy and commitment, which often overrides other factors. The pastor of a church is, in a sense, the most fluid element: they come, they go. This one seems to have stayed a long time but he's gone now, isn't he?
I thought what Obama wrote was spot on. He was direct and clear in both his criticism of the pastor and his wish to be distanced from what the pastor said. I don't see what was wrong or 'too clever' about that. It is perfectly possible to respect certain views or character traits of an individual while disowning completely something else within that individual. Likewise, it is actually perfectly possible to be committed to a group of people and not think much at all of the leader. I think in his article Obama shows he is not afraid to criticise something he considers very wrong, even when that something emanates from a person he has clearly known for some time.
Also, given Obama's dual heritage background, I would imagine it would be difficult for the undecideds to visualise him as a white-hater. That sounds a bit silly, actually.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
The pastor of a church is, in a sense, the most fluid element: they come, they go. This one seems to have stayed a long time but he's gone now, isn't he?
Only just barely -- he's still listed as the pastor on their website. Wright was the pastor there starting in 1972, long before Obama ever joined. While what you say about pastors is frequently true, it isn't in this case; Wright and his vision are have made that church what it is.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
Nixon was raised a Quaker. That didn't make him a pacifist. Carter attended a segregated church. That didn't make him a racist. Clinton was a Southern Baptist. That didn't make him....
Well, the list goes on.
This is a tempest in a teapot. It will be forgotten in a week.
Greta
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
LL;
it won't wash in the U.S. Chicago as a big city has tons of churches, tons of black churches, that he could choose. He could leave with his friends. That's what I'd do, if my church/synagogue spewed hate or otherwise fire the hateful minister/rabbi.
And yes you can have a white mother and hate white people. The Rev. Wright is, I'd say 90% white. It's part of the 1960's black liberation movement when being dark, African was (rightly) celebrated. But light blacks had a very very hard time....
Obama is a child of privilege, my Chinese-American college friend went to Punahou in Hawaii, it's akin to Eton. He went to Harvard Law School, he was the president of the Law Review.
He can't have all that and go to a church where the minister says 'Goddam America' .
Americans unlike the British are not cynical; we're naive, optimistic, sentimental, and really believe the U.S is the land of opportunity. And lots of immigrants feel the same way.
I just know the mainstream being a libertarian kind of person sometimes voting Republican sometimes Democrat.You cannot associate yourself with those kinds of people and sentiments and win a national election.
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
You cannot associate yourself with those kinds of people and sentiments and win a national election.
Tell that to George W. Bush or John McCain. Didn't Jerry Falwell say that gay people caused 9/11?
[ 15. March 2008, 19:22: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
Sad fact of the matter is the following: if Wright is on film saying these things, it will hurt Obama a great deal. But if he isn't on film, it won't hurt him that much, except possibly with people who wouldn't have voted for him anyway. That may make a slight difference in increasing Republican turnout, but without film not enough people will get excited enough about it to make a difference.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
You cannot associate yourself with those kinds of people and sentiments and win a national election.
Tell that to George W. Bush or John McCain. Didn't Jerry Falwell say that gay people caused 9/11?
Bush and McCain both sat in the pews for 20 years listening to Falwell?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
Ruth: point taken. I guess either his vision changed or Obama took the vision without taking the rest of it as well?
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
it won't wash in the U.S. Chicago as a big city has tons of churches, tons of black churches, that he could choose. He could leave with his friends. That's what I'd do, if my church/synagogue spewed hate or otherwise fire the hateful minister/rabbi.
I appreciate the cultural differences; truly, I do. I spent a year in the States, visited churches there: they are radically different beasts to the ones over here. I also know the place of God is different to over here (where there isn't one, really). So I am very aware that I speak as an English person, not an American. However, I'm not entirely sure leaving a church where you have created ties and given commitment simply because the pastor has controversial views that you actually dislike intensely and don't agree with is necessarily the right thing to do. Sometimes I am sure it is. I know nothing of Obama's situation so all I say is theoretical, but I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. Which I guess it is easy for me to do as he isn't running to be a candidate for the leader of my country!
quote:
And yes you can have a white mother and hate white people. The Rev. Wright is, I'd say 90% white. It's part of the 1960's black liberation movement when being dark, African was (rightly) celebrated. But light blacks had a very very hard time....
But do you think Obama is of this mindset? He certainly doesn't come across like that. However, that's his media persona so it could mean anything. I've just bought his book, The Audacity of Hope so maybe I will learn more about the man from reading that.
quote:
Obama is a child of privilege
Hmm. So?
quote:
He can't have all that and go to a church where the minister says 'Goddam America' .
But does the church say that? Or just its pastor? In fact, does its pastor say that as a creed or as a political opinion on some occasions? I saw Leonard Wright on Fox News earlier today for the first time. And interestingly, given your comments, there were a number of white faces in his congregation. Maybe Obama didn't want to go to a 'black' church? Maybe he wanted to go to a church that best reflected his hopes for and belief in community? I don't know; that's just speculation. But it could be one of the reasons why he stayed even though the pastor is controversial.
quote:
Americans unlike the British are not cynical; we're naive, optimistic, sentimental, and really believe the U.S is the land of opportunity.
I'd agree with you totally on this. They were among the cultural features that meant when I came to the end of my stay there I just didn't want to come home! I do see your point. To us English, hearing someone say 'Goddamn England' would be, well, par for the course. We are a depressingly cynical, pessimistic, whinging, moaning lot on the whole (though I believe we have our good points as well somewhere). So to us it isn't so shocking and I personally think it would be a real shame for his campaign to come undone on his decision to remain committed to a church just because the pastor is controversial. Somehow, there seem to be far more important issues on which a campaign should fall, if it's going to fall at all. I hope it doesn't. The man should be chosen for who he is not what political views one of his associates may hold. It appears very tangental to the real issues. However, it isn't my potential president who is being chosen ...
[ 15. March 2008, 21:00: Message edited by: Littlelady ]
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
Oops. Got Dr Wright's name wrong. It must have been the reporter on Fox who was called Leonard. Or my hearing's going ... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Bush and McCain both sat in the pews for 20 years listening to Falwell?
No, they just kiss far-right butt regularly during the campaigns. Later, they ignore their far-right religious friends, pretty much, once they've got elected.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
Ruth: point taken. I guess either his vision changed or Obama took the vision without taking the rest of it as well?
Who knows? I think what you say below is pretty close to what Obama was getting at in his Huffington Post piece:
quote:
However, I'm not entirely sure leaving a church where you have created ties and given commitment simply because the pastor has controversial views that you actually dislike intensely and don't agree with is necessarily the right thing to do.
My fellow office worker at the ultra-liberal UCC church (same denom as Trinity UCC, I'll point out) vehemently disagrees with the theology that is preached there. The senior minister is pretty much a Unitarian humanist; he believes in Jesus' social teachings and tries to follow them, but he doesn't think Jesus is divine or that he rose from the dead and he doesn't think God intervenes in human affairs, which has a profound effect on worship there -- there is no petitionary prayer. My co-worker's beliefs are pretty much garden-variety mainstream Protestant, and she sighs and rolls her eyes a lot at what's preached in her church, but she'll never leave it because after 20 years she's too tied to the community there. She simply takes to heart the sign on the minister's door: "Think for yourself - your minister may be wrong."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Bush and McCain both sat in the pews for 20 years listening to Falwell?
No, they just kiss far-right butt regularly during the campaigns. Later, they ignore their far-right religious friends, pretty much, once they've got elected.
That's why it appears a big stretch to compare them and Falwell with Obama and his preacher.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Obama's response is too clever by half. Crafted to be general enough to apply to any "new" inflammatory statements that they new would surface once this got rolling, it puts him in the position of having to flatly deny knowledge of the general culture of the church he attends.
This will be impossible.
The "statements that are the cause of this controversy" are not isolated. The "God damn America" attitude is pervasive at Trinity. Combined with the statements of his wife, this presents huge problems for Obama. IMO you can grab your butter and jam, cause the boy is toast.
Ah, an arch conservative smacking a left-center candidate. Quelle surprise.
May I suggest also that calling a black man "boy" rather shows off something unpleasant about yourself?
The use of the word "boy" was meant only as gender specification. If you were offended or disturbed by it in any way, then that really sucks for you.
I suppose I should have followed up with "no pun intended" when I refered to him as "toast", as well?
How absurd.
What is being lost in this dicussion about the merit of "guilt by association" is the fact that Obama is running for POTUS!
Of course individuals cannot be judged by the political views of their clergy. No reasonable person would suggest so.
But when you decide to run for president, all that consideration and benefit of the doubt enjoyed by private individuals goes out the window.
Assuming that Obama's aspirations go back further than 18 months, he should have easily had the judgement to recognize these potential problems, and moved to avoid them altogether.
Call him naive, maybe arrogant, maybe just stupid, but this element of the issue is just as damaging to his electability as the idea that he may be sympathetic to the ideology of a waste of flesh like Jeremiah Wright.
If he truly believes that American voters will buy his twisted logic for remaining in a church like that then he truly is either naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
"The Audacity of Hope".....
How ironic!
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
I actually took B. Obama as I found him, a candidate not the 'black' candidate etc...but yeah I judge the future POTUS by the company he keeps.
He's not only a goner, but I bet he's put black candidates back 50 years. People will vote anyday for Bobby Jindal (Indian)of Louisiana or a Hispanic over a black candidate who they will now think is a secret white-hater.
Do I personally think Obama hates whites and is anti-semitic? I don't know, but I don't trust him...
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
If he truly believes that American voters will buy his twisted logic for remaining in a church like that then he truly is either naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
Apparently you only hang out with fundamentalist true-believer type churchgoers who base their choice of church solely on what the pastor believes.
As Ruth has already pointed out, there do exist some of us who value the actual worship and especially our place in the community more than the particular details of exactly what the pastor believes and preaches. Some of us even find that regular exposure, in a supportive and caring environment, to views we don't agree with is useful in that it doesn't allow complacency and forces us to seriously examine our own beliefs.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
this is getting frankly hysterical.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
If he truly believes that American voters will buy his twisted logic for remaining in a church like that then he truly is either naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
Apparently you only hang out with fundamentalist true-believer type churchgoers who base their choice of church solely on what the pastor believes.
As Ruth has already pointed out, there do exist some of us who value the actual worship and especially our place in the community more than the particular details of exactly what the pastor believes and preaches. Some of us even find that regular exposure, in a supportive and caring environment, to views we don't agree with is useful in that it doesn't allow complacency and forces us to seriously examine our own beliefs.
Let's get some realistic perspective here.
Particular details?
To describe the language and ideology puked forth by Wright as the "particular details" of his belief is a bit disingenuous.
Can anyone offer an example of a viewpoint or language expressed by their chu/syn/mos as generally* offensive and stupid as some of what Wright has said, who still remains a member because of the worship style or sense of community?
Of course exposure to alternative ideas creates an environment for growth and learning, but c'mon, the man thinks that AIDS and crack are racist conspiracies!
That isn't a "view we don't agree with", it's an abdication of responsibility, an incitement to who knows what, and just about as vacuous a perspective as I can imagine.
*Abortion and gay marraige excluded for the obvious reasons.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Does anyone have a link to what Pastor Wright has actually said? Hopefully a reasonably broad overview, not just a few brief quotes which might be out of context.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Here you go, HL.
You should look beyond the polemics of a retired pastor whose politics were born of the radical 60's and early 70's and look at the record of the man running for president. Does anyone seriously believe Obama may be a secret "white-hater"? His black father left him and his white mother when Obama was aged two years. If Wright has had any influence on Obama's political idealism, it appears to have set the democratic front-runner on a course to end racial divisiveness, not enflame it.
Obama is a paragon of cool-headed, balanced reserve. I have yet to see him exhibit any measure of the petty vindictiveness, axe-grinding or disengenous strident emotionalism of his democratic opponent. Instead, he projects a self-effacing, literate, good-humored, intelligent aura of a person capable of thinking on his feet. I don't give a damn about the politics of his former pastor or anyone's church for that matter. Religion has NO place in this political race. Full stop.
Whatever influences created this unique candidate, they can only be a good thing. You only have to listen to him speak and watch his reaction to controversy to know he's got his head screwed on tight. It will take far more than a ranting old retired pastor to throw me off this band wagon.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Amen, Brother Gort. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
Well said, Gort.
So, does all this mean Obama really isn't a Muslim?
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
Well said, Gort.
So, does all this mean Obama really isn't a Muslim?
It means that he might as well be.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Forgive a Canadian for sounding confused. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Last week you were all over him because he might be a Muslim. Despite being raised by a non-Muslim.
This week, people are all over him because he has been exposed as a Christian ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) who attends a mostly (or fully) black congregation again.
He had a pastor who was a motormouth (Big surprise, many are) Bad choice on his part. Should have chosen Billy Graham I guess. Very suitable for a presidential aspirant.
So what's next?
(PS I don't have a horse in this race. My prime minister is a member of a "born again" type church, my Head of State is, in another role, Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Is my face bovvered?)
I'm confused. Help thou my confusion.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
I'm still trying to get over the hysterical ranting that proposes that Obama has somehow set black candidates for POTUS back 50 years. Where goeth logic??
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
It's the fear-mongering politics of the past espoused by those who feed on paranoia.
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Let's get some realistic perspective here.
Too totally rich.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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