|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
WOW....just how the heck does Clinton respond to that?
I heard her response. It was something like:
"Yes, race and gender have divided this country for a long time".
And that was pretty much it. A little "and gender" dig. Thing is, gender hasn't divided this country in anything like the way race has. Obama, instead of hoping the whole business would go away, firmly took hold of a major third rail in US politics and spoke cogently about something that troubles us all. I'm sold. Totally sold. That wrapped it up for me, barring the revelation that he ate his former law partner's heart with fava beans and a nice chianti. And honestly, I think we're way too judgmental about lifestyle choices. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
I still don't see enough of what he would actually do as President.
Preach it!
Will the Obama with a position please stand up, please stand up. I'd like to know why I am actually voting against him.
More seriously, if he doesn't take some positions up, I'm going to assume he's a raging pinko liberal from hell. I really don't want to vote for McCain, but I swear to Buddha I will if he doesn't state his positions real darn clearly.
I think on one of the major issues of our... or actually Bush's foreign policy, he had made his position quite clear.
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
I still don't see enough of what he would actually do as President.
Preach it!
Will the Obama with a position please stand up, please stand up. I'd like to know why I am actually voting against him.
More seriously, if he doesn't take some positions up, I'm going to assume he's a raging pinko liberal from hell. I really don't want to vote for McCain, but I swear to Buddha I will if he doesn't state his positions real darn clearly.
I think on one of the major issues of our... or actually Bush's foreign policy, he had made his position quite clear.
Has he? Really? He has stated that he would not have invaded Iraq. He has given no viable plan as to how he will extract the US from Iraq, beyond saying he will gradually withdraw troops. Which would be militarily foolish, leaving the last troops to withdraw vastly outnumbered, and politically infeasible - when violence escalates as the troops leave, will he withstand the pressure to reverse the withdrawal? Leaving a heavily guarded embassy is sure to fail; a small contingent of troops guarding an embassy cannot hold off a surrounding force indefinitely, and, assuming the embassy will not have its own airport, how will troops and embassy staff be resupplied or rotated out? A repeat of the Saigon or Tehran embassy debacles looks likes likely.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
It's a clear position, Zwingli, not a detailed plan of redeployment, which would be the military's responsibility to plan anyway. It would be silly for him to say now these exact troops would come out on this exact day when the situation is obviously volatile and unpredictable. Have you read his plan for Iraq?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
|
Posted
It is a clear position. It is not a position that he will be able to follow through with, if elected. That makes it unclear what he will actually do. The economic policies on his website were much the same - additional spending, tax credits for the poor, tax cuts for the middle class, and a reduction in the budget deficit. Most is very general, and what is specific doesn't add up, so we are left wondering what President Obama would actually do. I'm still none the wiser after the speech and reading the website.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
So, what do people down there want?
An orator who talks about hope but who does not have many well laid out plans?
or
A...well...now what exactly is Ms. Clinton again?
or
An older bit of maverick with strong but known views who will be "in charge"?
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
It is a clear position. It is not a position that he will be able to follow through with, if elected. That makes it unclear what he will actually do.
What a bizarre criterion! Can you say what anyone will do, if by do you mean that, as POTUS he will have to get his agenda through Congress, who will change it with their own set of priorities? The reason to set out position papers during an election is to make clear what you will work to accomplish. That is the basis for whatever "mandate" an elected official may claim to have on entering office. It does not mean that his/her priorities will end up becoming the law of the land.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Zwingli:
The economic policies on his website were much the same - additional spending, tax credits for the poor, tax cuts for the middle class, and a reduction in the budget deficit.
Ya know, all of that actually looks pretty sensible to me.
And if he tried to get more specific, I wouldn't trust him for the reasons you mention. Presidents are not supposed to micromanage.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
|
Posted
Mirrizin and tclune, you may have missed my point. Of course a Presidential candidate cannot give out detailed plans of what they will be able to get through Congress in years hence. But I get worried when they announce plans which are clearly unworkable even if passed, such as cutting taxes, reducing the deficit and increasing spending (presumably simultaneously, as no order was given in which they would be enacted) or the staged withdrawal of troops with a protected ( ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ) embassy in Baghdad. It makes me think that it isn't even what he intends to attempt to do if Congress allows it - it's just stuff he's saying to get elected. He's announcing plans which he knows he will never implement; however he also knows people will vote for him without scrutinising his plans.
Look, when he first ran for the Senate, such things would have been excusable. As a final three contender for the most powerful job in the world, he should have budget plans which add up (in general terms) and a realistic idea of what would be workable in Iraq. If nothing else, the American electorate deserve an informed choice. After all, George W Bush came to power with vague generalities about balancing budgets, increasing spending, cutting taxes and having a humble foreign policy, and look what a catastrophe that turned out to be.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
|
Posted
Zwingli: apparently Obama gave a speech today about Iraq. I believe it was also 'pretty specific' (in the words of an American commentator) in terms of his policy towards the situation there. Whether Ruth's link formed the basis of the speech I don't know as I didn't get to hear it being over this side of the Pond an' all. Maybe hearing that speech will provide sufficient detail to answer your questions? Or maybe not. If he isn't your guy then he isn't your guy and that's that I guess.
Audacity of Hope is a great book by the way. Especially if you want to get a handle on some of those specifics ...
--------------------
'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
|
Posted
Obama's Iraq Policy
PDF format, 7 (count 'em) full pages.
--------------------
It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
it puts him in the position of having to flatly deny knowledge of the general culture of the church he attends...
The "statements that are the cause of this controversy" are not isolated. The "God damn America" attitude is pervasive at Trinity... If he truly believes that American voters will buy his twisted logic for remaining in a church like that then he truly is either naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
I'm really at a loss to understand your animus against this man Obama. What has he ever done to you?
Since when is Christianity supposed to be cozy with the State? Here it is Holy Week, when we follow the progress of Our Lord to Calvary and execution ordered by the State-- and not by the State alone, but in collusion with the regnant religious authorities of that place and time. We worship a duly convicted criminal, who fell and rose not out of a random misunderstanding, but in a clash of wills enevitable and long foreseen. Please think about that. Most of His closest disciples met a similar fate.
I'm ambivalent about this exposure. On the one hand, I think it sucks that this candidate, who strikes me as the most sincere and devout Christian we have had in many years, is singled out to be answerable for the ravings of a clergyman in his congregation. Why not Romney? Why not McCain? Why not Bush? On the other hand, churches are open to the public and would do well to remember that. They are not secret societies. On this characteristic their tax exemption and their good will in the community largely depend. After all, this place is where Mysterey Worshipper reports come from.
If there were a left-wing conspiracy as nasty as the right-wing conspiracy, they could similarly tail Republican candidates into their houses of worship, make videos of the proceedings, and expose snippets that put their targets in a poor light. Why couldn't they? Well, I see two problems with that: (1) In some so-called churches, the U.S. flag is just as important as the cross, and un-Americanism an unspeakable heresy. (2) It must be a challenge to catch many right-wing candidates, however sanctimonious they may appear, actually attending a service of worship where they claim membership.
I won't try to defend a "God damn America" attitude, but it presents a sharper contrast than it should to the prevailing atmosphere in most places, where they wave around an assumption that we Americans are God's favorite people like some kind of intoxicating incense. The general attitude of the church vis-a-vis the state should be as vigilant and suspicious as that of the press.
Now of course, if I were an Anglican Obama, I would explain that I go to church for the sacraments and to worship God, not because I find the preaching particularly to my taste-- which is a relatively small part of the experience. An Anglican or Catholic Obama might might even be in a position to explain that he attends the church he does for the same reason that he votes at the polling place he does: because he lives within the designated boundaries. And I would be tempted to leave it at that. But this is part of why I'll never be elected to so much as a borough council. It's not savvy politics. He was brave enough to grasp the nettle, and IMHO brilliantly in this Philadelphia speech, while also explaining why a parishioner can remain a parishioner without agreeing with the preaching. I'd stand by my reasons, so I think that he should be allowed his.
Cartoon in today's Philadelphia Daily News: A robed, bearded guy with sandals is speaking to a crowd: "Love your enemies! Sell all you have and give to the poor! Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." One onlooker at the edge of the crowd says to another: "I can't let him be my minister. It would spoil my chances to be President." And it probably would, wouldn't it?
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Cartoon in today's Philadelphia Daily News: A robed, bearded guy with sandals is speaking to a crowd: "Love your enemies! Sell all you have and give to the poor! Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." One onlooker at the edge of the crowd says to another: "I can't let him be my minister. It would spoil my chances to be President." And it probably would, wouldn't it?
Here is the cartoon. It's a good one.
--------------------
It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
Sorry for the double-post, but I forgot one more point. I recall in a lecture Dr. Turnbull, director of the Boys Choir of Harlem, giving great credit to churches and church attendance as a civilizing influence of long standing on the children in his borough, and lamenting the fact that this influence is gradually declining.
Now, I don't know much about churches in Harlem (New York City). I don't want to be condescending like the writer a few months ago who questioned the verisimilitude of the film August Rush on the grounds that it portrayed a church in Harlem with a pipe organ, which she doubted that any churches in Harlem have. A quick link to the AGO's New York Organ Project updated her education about that.
But, despite what we might wish, the poor in such areas hardly flock into places either like my parish S. Clement's, Philadelphia, or like Very First Baptist, Court House Square, Anytown. What if it is (or for decades, was) places in the style of Mr. Wright's Trinity UCC that attract them, or nothing; and if nothing, they're all too liable to remain remain heathens and hellions. Which would you prefer for them?
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
I'm sold. Totally sold.
Likewise. About an hour ago, I took advantage of a student-run voter-registration offer on campus to change my registered party from Libertarian to Democrat, solely so that I can vote for Obama in the primary next month. (I took another form with me so that I can change my party back after the poll.) My conscience is not quite clear about this sort of thing, but on the other hand someone, whether Hillary or in the Repubs, is not playing fair. I can't recall another Presidential candidate that I've been so happy to vote for, rather than just voting against. It's the least I can do for him-- and for the young people around, who have made a relatively overwhelming choice, and done so with a sober sense of how much they stand to lose if the country and the world keep getting more and more screwed up.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
About an hour ago, I took advantage of a student-run voter-registration offer on campus to change my registered party from Libertarian to Democrat, solely so that I can vote for Obama in the primary next month. (I took another form with me so that I can change my party back after the poll.) My conscience is not quite clear about this sort of thing...
Are you sure you get what it means to be a Libertarian? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
[ 19. March 2008, 23:31: Message edited by: tclune ]
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Are you sure you get what it means to be a Libertarian?
You must know that defining libertarianism is about like herding cats. For some, and I've heard and read them, it's their religion. I can't go that far for obvious reasons.
The present Republican administration created the "Patriot Act" and a prison beyond the restraints of the U.S. Constitution in Guantanomo. Obama would get rid of the latter, at least, immediately. I haven't heard of any problem that McCain has with either one. That difference will do for starters. Does the rest of the world hate America now because we've been such great libertarians? I don't think so.
If it makes you feel any better, I hope that the Supreme Court, in this current case before it, upholds the constitutional right to bear arms as it has always prevailed. Do you know that this case pits Bush against Cheney?
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
Speaking today in Oman, during an interview by Martha Raddatz of ABC news, Vice President Dick "Shotgun" Cheney said last year's troop surge was a "major success". Raddatz asked him how that comports with polls showing two thirds of Americans think the Iraq war is not worth it. Cheney's response: quote:
So?
Cheney later celebrated the successful war's fifth anniversary by fishing from the Sultan of Oman's private yacht.
In other news: Hillary Clinton speaking in Michigan today says that Obama's lack of support for counting the Michigan delegates "...is wrong and frankly, un-American".
Un-American? This after Obama's speech last night? This after you both signed DNC papers rejecting Michigan and Florida delegates to the convention? Tell me, Hillary... is backstabbing, disengenous scheming a patriotic "American" requisite? It looks as though you are qualified to maintain that fine tradition in the Oval Office. But then, you think McCain [who blundered in Iraq today by claiming Iraqi Al Qaeda insurgents are being trained in Iran] is more qualified to be Prez than Obama. Go figure.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
it puts him in the position of having to flatly deny knowledge of the general culture of the church he attends...
The "statements that are the cause of this controversy" are not isolated. The "God damn America" attitude is pervasive at Trinity... If he truly believes that American voters will buy his twisted logic for remaining in a church like that then he truly is either naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
I'm really at a loss to understand your animus against this man Obama. What has he ever done to you?
Allow me to apologize to you and any other Obama supporters on this thread if I gave the impression of animus against Barry O. I can say without question that I have none whatsoever. Frankly I have quite enjoyed the drama thus far. My observations about things politic are meant only as an expression of my understanding of how national elections are won and lost in the USA, nothing more.
To be honest, I would have to say that I have more personally in common with Obama than any other leading candidate from either party in my lifetime. (Still not a lot in common, but more)
I guess the thing that does gripe me a bit about the whole Obama-mania phenomenon is the idea that American voters could still be ignorant enough to expect any candidate from the power parties to bring about real change. It ain't gonna happen, folks. The country is on a slow drift to the left, and no republicrat or demoplican leader is going to change that. All that will change is which media outlets do the bitching, and which do the apologetics. Governmant power will continue to grow, and individual liberty will continue to whither.
Want true change? Support a third party.
As for Obama's casa blanca aspirations, I said long ago that he has no chance, and I stand by that assertion with full conviction.
The statements I've made about him should be read strictly in the context of what it takes to get the job done. To win. I opine from the point of view of the "American electorate" as I see and understand it. Nothing personal, zip, zilch, nada.
Obama's "association" problems are not over. Wright is only the first unsavory character who will be linked to him. The speech he gave was an absolute necessity as a political tourniquet, but in it you could hear the very nature of his overall difficulty. All the questions about him and the contradictions inherent in who he is laid bare. Of course his supporters hail it as further evidence of his brilliance and "new attitude" politics. Unfortunately for him, the voters who will coronate the next president are far too cynical (and conservative) for this kind of bullshit.
I would actually quite enjoy it if he were able somehow to win the whole thing, if only for the repudiation that would be of all that the Clinton's represent about US politics. I am certainly not naive enough to think that Clinton/McCain/Obama will make any real difference one way or another, and I am proud to say that I will vote for none of them.
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
I've spent my adult life voting for minor party candidates, or occasionally holding my nose and voting for Democrats to prevent a greater evil. Obama is the first presidential candidate I think I'm going to feel really good about voting for (in the primary if nothing else--if I have to vote for Hillary in November I'll be holding my nose).
The impressive thing about his race speech was that he did something that most American politicians gave up on a long time ago: He told the truth about an important, morally complex issue in a nuanced way. And he did it in clear, straightforward, and even eloquent prose, without being obscurantist or condescending. I can't remember the last time that happened in a political campaign. (His Iraq speech was just as good.)
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The country is on a slow drift to the left
Come again? Care to back that up with evidence?
--------------------
Bad Christian (TM)
Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The country is on a slow drift to the left
Come again? Care to back that up with evidence?
John McCain is the republican candidate for president.
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
|
Posted
As a voter in one of the last 10 states to have primaries (and we've always been dissed and are votes were just minor frosting on the cakes because we ARE so late...sigh) it's great to know that all of a sudden we are real players in the primaries!
McCain is blwing off all the remaining primary states and spending his time in Iraq (must be that 100-year-war in Iraq comment thathe's trying desperatly to back-peddle-away-from)
Clinton is working her butt off in slected states. But Obama has a huge grassroots (and completely volunteer) action in all the states, including mine, and he didn't find it necessary to contribute $5 million to keep his campaign going.
I noticed in the news here in the states that HRC had a pitstop in Charleston, West Virginia. So does Obama.
Obama is, once again, in a much larger venue but the word went out on Wedesday that people would need tickets to attend.
Apparently HRC is still hoping to fill her venue without having to issue tickets.
[ 20. March 2008, 03:18: Message edited by: Cruella ]
--------------------
don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
And McCain, while slightly to the left of Shrub, is well to the right of any Republican president before Reagan--he's a minor correction to the GOP's drift into far right looney-land since 1980.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
|
Posted
It's a very weird thing here in the states now...
"Change" and "Hope" according to McCain and HRC are very VERY bad words.
Those in America, who are everyday workers and taxpayers, are feeling there could indeed be something here can make a change. But McCain & HRC try to scare everyone off saying change is bad....
sigh...I've been voting since I got the vote in 1970 and NO ONE I've voted for has been elected (I almost voted for Jimmy Carter but got scared at the last minute...my bad on that...)
--------------------
don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
I've had the same voting record as you since 1970, Cruella. But then, I've supported candidates like John Anderson. Ever the hopeful optimist, my vote seems to be the kiss of death.
Not this time.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
the thing that does gripe me a bit about the whole Obama-mania phenomenon is the idea that American voters could still be ignorant enough to expect any candidate from the power parties to bring about real change.
We agree to some extent there. I read Morris Berman, after all. America is in terminal decline as a superpower, and Americans' standard of living is in for rough sledding. It's too late to change this trajectory with political arrangements. But one thing that Obama is in a good position to change is our image abroad, which has hardly anywhere to go but up. We're going to need friends.
I am attracfted to Ron Paul in many basic respects, but he wants to scrap the income tax in favor of a 20-some percent general sales tax. That's not the way to go if we want to redress the grotesque inequities in wealth that are plaguing our society.
We walked away from any semblance of a gold standard under Nixon, right? OPEC is making noises about pricing oil in Euros instead of US$ (or are they doing so already?) One day, maybe not distant, the moguls could play games against the dollar, just as they have done to shaky currencies in other countries. If so, hang onto your seat. (I've been buying gold recently as I am able, not to trade with near-term but because I hope to retire someday.)
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The right can't govern. An ideal situation would be that Obama would be elected President, and the Republicans would have a small majority in Congress. That way, Obama can forge a coalition between Democrats and moderate Republicans to build policy that is progressive and balanced. The Republicans would be there to make sure Obama doesn't do something stupid, like nationalizing the airline industry or massively cutting back on the military.
I don't view Obama as a wide-eyed liberal. Then again, I'm a Canadian, and even our conservatives insist at least publicly, that they support national health care.
I'm convinced. Go Obama, and end the world's eight year nightmare.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... (I've been buying gold recently as I am able, not to trade with near-term but because I hope to retire someday.)
You're buying gold at nearly $1,000/oz.? I have some tooth fillings you may be interested in. Hold on, let me find those pliers.
[ 20. March 2008, 04:37: Message edited by: Gort ]
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I am attracted to Ron Paul in many basic respects, but he wants to scrap the income tax in favor of a 20-some percent general sales tax. That's not the way to go if we want to redress the grotesque inequities in wealth that are plaguing our society.
We walked away from any semblance of a gold standard under Nixon, right? OPEC is making noises about pricing oil in Euros instead of US$ (or are they doing so already?) One day, maybe not distant, the moguls could play games against the dollar, just as they have done to shaky currencies in other countries. If so, hang onto your seat. (I've been buying gold recently as I am able, not to trade with near-term but because I hope to retire someday.)
You may be confusing Mike Huckabee, who supported abolishing individual and corporate income taxes and replacing it with a revenue neutral 23% or 30% (depending on how measured) general sales tax, with Ron Paul, who wanted to abolish the same taxes and replace them with nothing, by cutting spending dramatically. I supported Ron Paul's plan, but I would also greatly prefer Huckabee's to the current situation.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Obama, instead of hoping the whole business would go away, firmly took hold of a major third rail in US politics and spoke cogently about something that troubles us all. I'm sold. Totally sold. That wrapped it up for me, barring the revelation that he ate his former law partner's heart with fava beans and a nice chianti. And honestly, I think we're way too judgmental about lifestyle choices.
Me too. The most remarkable speech by a politician for many years. Policy flows from vision and mission. I think he has vision and mission right - and that speech was born in a situation of great difficulty in his campaign.
I do not think there is any aspiring or actual political leader in the UK who measures up to that standard. We are mired in cynicism with the political process. I wish Obama God Speed. The means of achieving the ends will be hard to put in place, but he really does know where he wants to go.
Jim Wallis's comment on the speech is thoughtprovoking as well.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
... (I've been buying gold recently as I am able, not to trade with near-term but because I hope to retire someday.)
You're buying gold at nearly $1,000/oz.? I have some tooth fillings you may be interested in. Hold on, let me find those pliers.
Gold has dropped 10% is the last two days, so you might want to hold off on making yourself a candidate for dentures.
The endless looping of Rev. Wright's rantings on TV seems to have had its effect: Obama is trailing Clinton in the latest nationwide Gallup pole of registered Democrats.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
[QB] I do not think there is any aspiring or actual political leader in the UK who measures up to that standard. We are mired in cynicism with the political process.
Perhaps because the last political leader we had who talked the talk about change, was Tony Blair. Once in office the first thing he did was give politicians a raise. No wonder we're cynical.
--------------------
"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
You're buying gold at nearly $1,000/oz.? I have some tooth fillings you may be interested in. Hold on, let me find those pliers.
A better way to put that, of course, is that the dollar is worth 1/1000 ounce of gold. I remember when it was worth 1/32 ounce of gold, and I was getting by on $3000 a year. At that rate of shrinkage, and given everything else that's been going on lately, would you want to bet that it will be worth any more in eight or ten years than it is these days? Who cares about the blips in between?
There are old photos around of people carting wheelbarrows of paper money around to buy groceries. I'd like to know what's to prevent a repeat performance. It's not Fort Knox anymore.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Wheelbarrows?
Nah....the long term US economy is screwed by debt, but it ain't ever going to be like in Zimbabwe.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The endless looping of Rev. Wright's rantings on TV seems to have had its effect: Obama is trailing Clinton in the latest nationwide Gallup pole of registered Democrats.
I'm rather hoping that this response will turn out to be more typical in the long run. I'm not surprised at the interest level. And I thought the Iraq speech was very good indeed.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
A better way to put that, of course, is that the dollar is worth 1/1000 ounce of gold...
I'd rather consider it's worth floating on the foreign exchange. That seems a more realistic faith-based system than holding a lump of metal in a drawer. With the dollar weak, at least we're pulling foreign money into the system for our bargain sales.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And here's his speech on Iraq from earlier today.
Well that seems to make sense.
quote:
Success comes to be defined as the ability to maintain a flawed policy indefinitely.
That's a line to remember.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
consider it's worth floating on the foreign exchange. That seems a more realistic faith-based system than holding a lump of metal in a drawer.
Every government that issues money is tempted to debase it, and then to do whatever it can to conceal the fact. This is in their natural interest. It would be possible to have hyperinflation everywhere in the world at once.
I suppose one could always invest in organ pipes instead of gold. Their value (at least their cost to produce) against the dollar has followed a remarkably similar graph. But gold has an advantage in liquidity.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The endless looping of Rev. Wright's rantings on TV seems to have had its effect: Obama is trailing Clinton in the latest nationwide Gallup pole of registered Democrats.
Yeah, but. At the outset of this campaign, Clinton was miles ahead in the polls, right? And which primary was it when all the polls said Obama was in but in fact it was Clinton's day? Polls should be taken with a pinch of salt. I reckon only if the trail becomes a chasm should Obama's crew be worried.
--------------------
'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
Strange trouble brewing at the State Dept. What exactly is so sensitive about passport records? Does someone think Obama has been sneaking off to meet with Al Qaeda agents in Pakistan?...secret trysts with Hillary in the Bahamas?
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Not much, but Obama's people are out framing him as a "victim" all the same.
Anything to avoid having to explain Obama on tape refering to his grandmother as a "typical white person".
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Not much, but Obama's people are out framing him as a "victim" all the same.
Anything to avoid having to explain Obama on tape refering to his grandmother as a "typical white person".
he is right about stereotypical reactions people have but in his speech he eloquently pointed that people are complicated and that "good" people can have stereotypical reactions. But Bloggers and right-wing radio who have been blowing this up can't seem to understand these nuances. Obama has begun a good and needed dialogue beyond the stalemate of the past 30 years.
[ 21. March 2008, 02:29: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
...Anything to avoid having to explain Obama on tape refering to his grandmother as a "typical white person".
Yes; a horrible dancer, inappropriately casual dresser, politically atrophied and a paranoid recluse afraid of blacks...even though the grandson she raised is African-American. I can feel his reluctance to explain. Now, imagine trying to rise above the clamoring packs of naysayers, nitpicking your every word, while you attempt to advance your vision of unity.
If I were him, I'd wait till just before the convention in Denver, when the shit-slinging looks like a stampede in a cattleyard, tell the lot of you to fuck off and die, then withdraw from the race.
--------------------
--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
[QUOTE]Anything to avoid having to explain Obama on tape refering to his grandmother as a "typical white person".
Actually, he did refer to his grandmother as a "typical white person", especially a typical white person of that general age.
The thing about a lot of places in the states is that there is a lot of pretense about race now but Obama did very well, I thought, when addressing the subject and told the truth.
There still is indeed "black resentment" and "white fear" and, while completely silly on the face it's a reality (especially in urban American). Obama said out loud, yes, we still have a problem and pussy-footing around it will only delay the solution. Lots of Americans like to pretend about their feelings that are not quite PC.
I think his honesty in dealing with this issue may have hurt him because many people don't like to face their tightly held inner prejudices ... today's polls show that HRC has taken the lead ... but I never pay attention to polls...when the pollsters call me I always lie just to have a bit of fun.
And YAY Gort! Glad to meet another "kiss of death" voter!
Sometimes I think I should auction off my vote to the highest money grubbing polito...naw! I'd take the money and lie!!!
[ 21. March 2008, 03:22: Message edited by: Cruella ]
--------------------
don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
My grandmother was a typical white person of her age and upbringing. As am I, pretty much. Quelle horreur!
If people need a reason to hate Obama and one isn't to hand, they'll invent one. One must think the GOP hates him because he seems capable of beating them in November. They seem to think Hillary less of a threat. Judging by what has been said on this thread, I'd say they have a point.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Not much, but Obama's people are out framing him as a "victim" all the same.
Anything to avoid having to explain Obama on tape refering to his grandmother as a "typical white person".
he is right about stereotypical reactions people have but in his speech he eloquently pointed that people are complicated and that "good" people can have stereotypical reactions. But Bloggers and right-wing radio who have been blowing this up can't seem to understand these nuances. Obama has begun a good and needed dialogue beyond the stalemate of the past 30 years.
I can agree with your last sentence.
As for stereotypical reactions in the context of street crime, the stereotype exists for a reason, and isn't exclusive to "typical white people". Jesse Jackson has admitted to avoiding groups of young black men on the street.
As for understanding these nuances, the difficulty for Obama is that many times these nuances have been ignored to the destruction of the careers, lives, and reputations of white people who didn't deserve it at all. That he should get a pass smacks of hypocrisy, and is an element of why he is DOA for the general election.
This is not a rhetorical question, and pardon the over-done analogy, but honestly imagine that it was two-years ago, and GWB said "typical black person" in any setting and context that you like.
Now I have no more reason to believe GWB to be racist than I do Obama, and I know that Bush has been a lot more generous to Africa than any President has ever been. He's huge over there, and that's no joke. But people would be coming unglued if he had so much as uttered those words.
That is a fact, and the perception of a double standard is like the street crime "stereotype".
It exists for a reason. Because its real.
No speech is going to overcome this for Obama. He is fatally flawed, and I'm sure he's probably even now beginning to understand that for himself.
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
|
Posted
Hmm, he started to talk about race, which is great but he didn't continue.
Meaning sure, there are lots of resentments among blacks that they didn't get civil rights until the 1960's and latent anger about prejudice and discrimination, which white America should listen to. White Americans really really don't want to hear it, they want to 'get past' it, because it's easier. Well tough, you have to talk....
But Obama didn't say 'look Rev. Wright has fab social programs, but he has idiotic ideas, like the Gov't developing the AIDS virus.'
So to me Obama comes off, as just another politician, doing whatever will get him votes. I'm sure this didn't escape others.
As for my libertarian credentials: I'm for gay rights, abortion, immigration etc and small gov't, a fiscal conservative. I'm for McCain, & would like Romney as his Veep, for fiscal reasons.
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Hmm, he started to talk about race, which is great but he didn't continue.
Meaning sure, there are lots of resentments among blacks that they didn't get civil rights until the 1960's and latent anger about prejudice and discrimination, which white America should listen to. White Americans really really don't want to hear it, they want to 'get past' it, because it's easier.
But Obama didn't say 'look Rev. Wright has fab social programs, but he has idiotic ideas, like the Gov't developing the AIDS virus.'
So to me Obama comes off, as just another politician, doing whatever will get him votes. I'm sure this didn't escape others.
As for my libertarian credentials: I'm for gay rights, abortion, immigration etc and small gov't, a fiscal conservative. I'm for McCain, & would like Romney as his Veep, for fiscal reasons.
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
