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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
...As for understanding these nuances, the difficulty for Obama is that many times these nuances have been ignored to the destruction of the careers, lives, and reputations of white people who didn't deserve it at all. That he should get a pass smacks of hypocrisy, and is an element of why he is DOA for the general election.
You should seriously reevaluate your equation of the white experience with that of the black in this country's history. Do you expect the first African-American candidate, with a real possibility of becoming President, to exhibit some sort of pristine, hallowed perfection more admirable than 232 years of flawed white Presidents? How does that work, exactly?
Is it Obama's call to a higher ideal that forces your higher standards of character? Would you rather settle for the same old lying fatcats that have you convinced the war in Iraq is a success, that we don't need to be concerned for the poor or disenfranchised Americans, that the Whitehouse should be inherited from your father or husband?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Strange trouble brewing at the State Dept. What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Financially or politically motivated fishing? Maybe both motives? The media have created a lucrative market for such fishing expeditions. Building up and tearing down icons is big business and, by its nature, never-ending. Like the attraction of gossip. But at its heart, it's self-seeking self-serving crap. Where are the Ed Murrows of yesteryear?
Recent exchanges with romanlion - I'm with you, metalman.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
I'm starting to think of Obama as the Adlai Stevenson of my generation. My father was head-over-heals for Stevenson in the 1952 and 1956 elections. Stevenson was an intellectual with a quick sense of humor (When he was "charged" with being an egghead, he responded, "Eggheads of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your yokes." For the 1950's, where commies were the bogiemen of the day, it was a rather risque remark...)
When Stevenson was crushed in both elections by the dull-normal Ike, my father felt that he was in the USA, but not of the USA. My dad never got over those elections.
I am starting to suspect that Obama will be as unelectable as Stevenson was, and I will take it as hard as my father did that this sorry excuse for a country is so wildly unable to see merit where it actually exists, and insists on selecting people like GW, to whom the average fool can feel superior, as the person to lead this former super power. This is the way the world ends...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Something is happening out there. It's probably too soon to see the electability consequences, but I'd say he has already performed a significant public service. I hope Tom Clune is wrong - but I think Tom hopes he's wrong too.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
I agree, Obama's having an influence on the race discussion as the NY Tiimes points out, but a letter yesterday in the Philadelphia Inquirer from a disgruntled man states he will vote for McCain because he has a mortgage and financial problems and doesn't want to listen to sermons on race in America for the next four years by Obama.
I'd say this is common thinking in parts of our country - "what's in it for me?"
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
I'd be interested to hear how he expects McCain to help with his mortgage.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Strange trouble brewing at the State Dept. What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Social Security numbers.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Strange trouble brewing at the State Dept. What exactly is so sensitive about passport records?
Social Security numbers.
Social Security numbers, and lots of other stuff.
It's appalling enough that this private data was breached. But I think it's especially troubling that this information can apparently be breached by low-level lackeys employed by outside contractors. If they can so easily dig up such information on three sitting United States Senators, it doesn't speak well about privacy for the rest of us.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
The country is on a slow drift to the left,
From your lips to God's ears.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
And tell him to speed it up a bit.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
That is a fact, and the perception of a double standard is like the street crime "stereotype".
It exists for a reason. Because its real.
Completely agree with these statements because the stereotypes are indeed still real, no matter how "enlightened" most PC Americans think they are dead and gone since the '60s.
On the otherhand, I have to disagree here:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
No speech is going to overcome this for Obama. He is fatally flawed, and I'm sure he's probably even now beginning to understand that for himself.
I don't believe Obama is more fatally flawed that HRC or McCain.
My prob with the speech is that too many people expected the speech to overcome several hundred years of, how shall I put this..."human mismanagement" of their fellow human beings or (to be even more blunt) one "race" believing it is human and the other races are not.
There's no way Obama could have "fixed" those perceptions in one short speech.
I give him huge credit for talking about the proverbial "elephant in the room" (a much overused phrase but pertinent in this instance I think).
At least he didn't try to come off "black enough" as Bill Clinton snidely remarked Obama wasn't in South Carolina. Obama focused on the race problem that still exists (and BTW, it's not just a black/white issue, America is not called the "melting pot" for no apparent reason).
And it does look today that the poll numbers are reversing now that people are hearing the speech.
Finally! A presidential election in the USA that has people talking!
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don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zwingli
Shipmate
# 4438
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Posted
TBH I have difficulty imagining HRC in a "comfortable" conversation with pretty much anyone.
Posts: 4283 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
An open letter to Hillary Rodham Clinton:
I'm speaking to you as a frustrated American Who has watched his country decline these last few years in every important measure that defines us at home and abroad. I have seen thousands of our citizens die by the hand of suicidal agents claiming to work the will of God and I have watched as the entire populations of two foreign countries suffered the wrath of retribution. Our current President has made all concern for domestic issues secondary to a relentless expression of our military power abroad. The government purse has been bankrupt in this pursuit, to the detriment of every citizen, and with no real resolution of the conflict that initiated it.
It's time to understand that we are seen as decadent, power-mad bullies on the world stage who seem intent on forcing our political and economic system on others. It's time to understand that this country should lead by example and not by force; that our President should exemplify those virtues ratified in the constitution.
We are at a unique point in our history. The opportunity before us is simply the expression of freedom and equality that has always been the promise of this diverse nation. In these months leading up to an election replacing the current President, we need candidates who are willing to reject political expediency and reject divisive power struggles that emphasize our differences instead of our shared humanity.
There is a real chance that a fractured Democratic party failing to present a unified vision as a group [and quickly] will not be able to defeat a Republican candidate who seems willing to continue the current administration's failed policies.
Senator Clinton, an objective look at the current primary results, actual votes, designated delegates and the potential results of the remaining primaries gives you a very slim chance of winning the Democratic nomination for President. It's time for you to sacrifice your personal political ambition for the good of the nation and concede. Your support now for Barack Obama will allow the debate to focus on the very real differences between Obama and McCain and virtually guarantee your party and Obama's election this fall. Your continued struggle to advance yourself at all cost will ultimately result in the election of John McCain, whether or not you win the Democratic nomination.
Do what is right, Senator Clinton. Now.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681
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Posted
Hear, Hear!!
OOps, sorry, British heritage asserted itself for a moment.
I mean...
What Gort said.
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Jesus - nice bloke, bit religious
Posts: 2679 | From: Under Downunder | Registered: Mar 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A quote from le Guinn's "Left Hand of Darkness" comes to mind. Something like "a noble message and it will not be heeded."
But I don't know that for sure. I think if Obama bounces in the polls (as things sink in) Hilary might throw in the sponge. (But the Clintons will look for something in return).
I think Gort's analysis of the consequences of a bloody fight to the finish is spot on.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
It's appalling enough that this private data was breached. But I think it's especially troubling that this information can apparently be breached by low-level lackeys employed by outside contractors. If they can so easily dig up such information on three sitting United States Senators, it doesn't speak well about privacy for the rest of us.
After reading your passport record, I understand why you think that... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Bravo Gort! Very well expressed. If only..... but I don't think HRC would throw herself down. Maybe you, Gort, should send your post to HRC and you might be the Nathan to her David.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
Well spoken, Gort. You may be preaching to the choir, but you may want to consider posting it as a diary on Daily Kos.
Hopefully, Richardson's gracious endorsement will open the floodgates of high-profile superdelegate endorsements for Obama, and put the final nail in the coffin of Hillary's increasingly desperate campaign.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
Going on the resume provided for Richardson, I'd say he was ideally suited to support Obama given Obama's desire to reconcile and negotiate and his recognition of the need to build bridges abroad as well as encourage unity at home. The two men seem of one mind in both those respects. I don't know Richardson but if he has respect in US politics then hopefully his support will help Obama overcome any negative fallout from the Wright controversy.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
I concur with Gort's analysis.
If the Republicans end up winning with Obama as candidate (after it going to the convention - or worse!), the blame will surely have to placed at Hillary's door.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Hillary was awarded four Pinnochios by one of the Post's political analysts for her false memory about running from the plane in Sarajevo under sniper fire. Why on earth would she lie about something that a number of other people who were there and have no particular reason to lie can say definitely isn't true?
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Pardon me for whatever I'm missing here, but why do people think it will make such a difference if Hillary quits now? Rather than letting the convention play out? You really think folks won't vote Dem if the Dems are still thrashing things out at the convention? (In June, IIRC.)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Ok, I just checked Wikipedia, and the Dem convention won't be until late August, because they don't want to compete with the Olympics. The Rep convention is at the beginning of September, and they evidently wanted to go after the Dems' convention. So everything is happening late this time around.
Is the short stretch of time for full-force campaigning the only reason you think Hillary should quit? (Other than not liking her.)
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Reps. McCain has showed some signs of failing physically and mentally. (Unless he's on some med for his temper, and it's having side-effects?) If he has to drop out, who do you think the Reps would run instead?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Pardon me for whatever I'm missing here, but why do people think it will make such a difference if Hillary quits now? Rather than letting the convention play out? You really think folks won't vote Dem if the Dems are still thrashing things out at the convention? (In June, IIRC.)
The party has never done well in general elections when there have been Convention fights. 1968, 1972, and 1980 come to mind immediately.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
Golden Key - I think it's just the fact she can't realistically/mathematically win it without superdelegates going her way now. I'm all for democracy - and giving more people their say in the remaining primaries - but other candidates withdrew when they realised they just didn't have the support...so why shouldn't she?
It is mainly the not liking her thing for me, though. I'm fed up of seeing her pathetic attempts to win over the electorate. The flimsy response to Obama's groundbreaking speech was the last straw. [I say this, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get another five or six "last straws" before August...]
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
It's damaging to the party if the fight drags out all summer because it makes the Democrats look like incompetent boobs who have no business running the country and because everything attack Clinton levels at Obama is fodder for the McCain campaign in the general election: "You don't have to take my word for it -- listen to what his own party says about him ..."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's damaging to the party if the fight drags out all summer because it makes the Democrats look like incompetent boobs who have no business running the country...
I have no doubt your analysis is correct, but is this the reality? Is it incompetent to want to make sure you've got the correct candidate (according to the people who are registered as Democratic Party members)?
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
It's incompetent to have a system that can't cleanly and neatly sort out who that person is.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's incompetent to have a system that can't cleanly and neatly sort out who that person is.
Both parties have essentially the same system*. The difference in this election cycle is that the GOP had only one candidate with the requisite appeal to its members (and staying power and finances), whereas the Dems have two.
The major difference between the two parties (as I assume everybody reading this knows) is that in many state caucuses/primaries, the GOP has a winner-take-all system for the delegates, whereas the Dems have a proportionate system. A subtle difference, and although the Dem way of doing it is quite defensible and arguably more democratic, it would seem to lead to more photo-finish races than the GOP way.
[ 23. March 2008, 15:39: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's incompetent to have a system that can't cleanly and neatly sort out who that person is.
Both parties have essentially the same system*.
So is there anything to be said for the view that BOTH parties have incompetent systems?
In other words, if McCain had a half-decent challenger (which, it seems, he didn't), would both sides still be in the primary stage now?
Just thinking out loud, really.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Hmm, he started to talk about race, which is great but he didn't continue.
Meaning sure, there are lots of resentments among blacks that they didn't get civil rights until the 1960's and latent anger about prejudice and discrimination, which white America should listen to. White Americans really really don't want to hear it, they want to 'get past' it, because it's easier. Well tough, you have to talk....
But Obama didn't say 'look Rev. Wright has fab social programs, but he has idiotic ideas, like the Gov't developing the AIDS virus.'
So to me Obama comes off, as just another politician, doing whatever will get him votes. I'm sure this didn't escape others.
Did we listen to the same speech?
While Obama didn't indicate exactly what the idiotic ideas were (why create more publicity for that which he doesn't agree with, since anyone who cares can google or read or listen and find out), he quite clearly did say the equivalent of quote:
...'look Rev. Wright has fab social programs, but he has idiotic ideas,...
In particular, he talked about the fact that Rev Wright had built up a church which not only provided the sort of social outreach typical of many black (or white) urban churches, but that was somewhat unique in its ability to attract young black men, a group usually under-represented in church.
Obama was quite clear in stating that he didn't agree with everything Rev Wright preached or believed, but that aside from these disagreements, he had found that particular church and Rev Wright to be positive and supportive influences in his life. Thus the solid twenty-year relationship.
Obama then went on, not to 'spin' the subject, but to give a call that we all act like mature adults, rather than self-centered toddlers with stranger anxiety or insecure teens trying to fit in and worrying about what everyone else is thinking.
He called us to do our best to be honest when we talk about our innermost feelings about race, because without honesty (like his white grandmother's) no progress can be made.
[Personal history tangent, feel free to scroll down]
Think about it. The '60s civil rights legislation and the backlash against it created a situation where suddenly 'average citizens' were exposing their honest feelings. It was rather eye-opening for a lot of people, especially in nice white suburban communities.
The Detroit race riots of 1967 took place when I was 16 yrs old.
[Caveat: that link isn't very good (never names the actual date, for one thing), but it's short and gives a glimpse of how the riot might have started and spread that agrees roughly with my own youthful memory. Anyone who wants to know more should do their own research.]
I lived in Rochester, Michigan at the time, in one of the many 'comfortably well-off' new housing subdivisions springing up at the time and place.
These were a continuation of the upwardly mobile post GI-Bill '50s people, with the social emphasis on working together for good schools, good lawn maintenance, and friendly social interaction.
Serious social and political, much less religious, beliefs murmured along very quietly more or less below the surface. To actually talk about them (as did sometimes happen) disturbed the social fabric and was quickly surpressed.
Until the 1967 Detroit Riots.
Suddenly certain neighbors for whom I provided babysitting services were knocking on the door, asking my father to take up a gun and help patrol our neighborhood against "those people".
My little neighborhood, 24 miles north of Detroit (roughly one hour's drive), went into panic because something bad was happening "down there".
"Down there" meaning "among those black people".
And I hate to say it, but the underlying message (which was quite clear to me at the time, even though I was young and everything was discussed (at least when they knew I was within hearing) in very polite and moderate tones and verbiage:
The underlying message was "We men need to take up arms because those rioting black men down in Detroit will be here soon, aiming to rape our wives and daughters!".
I know this because I was sixteen and lurking in the background. I watched and listened to my parents attempting to calm down the various neighborhood vigilantes before they did something stupid like randomly shoot down a stranger in our perfectly safe tiny neighborhood.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It's damaging to the party if the fight drags out all summer because it makes the Democrats look like incompetent boobs who have no business running the country and because everything attack Clinton levels at Obama is fodder for the McCain campaign in the general election: "You don't have to take my word for it -- listen to what his own party says about him ..."
Orb, this is what I was referring back to. McCain can't attack the Dems because their system is boob-like, because the GOP has the same system.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
see, I'm loving the Dem primaries. for once there really is a contest. for once there is not a lack of decent candidates, but an excess. about time!
what's wrong with it running up to the convention? what's wrong with making them hone their skills? we want the best person for the job, right?
now, sure, if they bad mouth each other it can be used against them later. but the solution to that is simple, really. tell us about your programs. tell us why you are the best one for the job. don't be a kindergardener telling us how the other kid on the playground is such a loser.
to me, the candidate who can act like a grown up in that situation is preferable, and it says a lot about the candidates in general on how they handle this stress.
yay, competition!
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
McCain can't attack the Dems because their system is boob-like, because the GOP has the same system.
I know that. I was asking "aren't both systems wrong?".
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
McCain can't attack the Dems because their system is boob-like, because the GOP has the same system.
I know that. I was asking "aren't both systems wrong?".
The whole thing is screwed up. Presidential elections shouldn't take over a year.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Exactly, Comet!
Granted, the system is a mess; but let the competition play out. Let the person earn the job, and let everyone have a chance to vote.
I just hope we get something resembling an honest, accurately-counted general election in November. The last two have been ridiculously flawed and possibly tampered with, and people have been "accidentally" kept away from the polls. If we don't get this straightened out, we've lost everything. BlackBoxVoting.org is one good place to track voting issues.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Granted, the system is a mess; but let the competition play out. Let the person earn the job, and let everyone have a chance to vote...
Let's remember that this is a Democratic Party nomination process and not some patriotic obligation that "everyone have a chance to vote." If you are a Democratic Party member, you accept the rules for the campaign process decided by the Democratic National Committee. Amongst those rules is the power of the Democratic National Committee to completely discount the entire nominating process of a state primary for ignoring those rules and both current candidates have signed their approval. The DNC has also allowed for over-riding even legitimate states' primary results in the form of super delegates at the Democratic Party Convention, if those delegates decide that the primary nominee is unelectable in the presidential election. The goal of the Democratic Party is to elect a Democratic Party member to the position of POTUS, not to guarantee a forum for infighting or petty squabbling over rules that have already been approved.
If you're concerned that everyone get a chance to vote, save it for the general election.
[ 24. March 2008, 01:34: Message edited by: Gort ]
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Granted, the system is a mess; but let the competition play out. Let the person earn the job, and let everyone have a chance to vote...
snipped the rest...
* heavy HEAVY sigh.... *
But Gort has the truth of it.
Amongst those rules is the power of the Democratic National Committee to completely discount the entire nominating process of a state primary for ignoring those DNC rules and essentially threw out the votes (read = delegates) of Democrats in two states.
A voter in the States has to wonder what the worth of an individual vote is worth given the uber-value of superdelegates and the Electoral College.
Here we have Obama ahead with delegates based on popular vote but HRC is depending on the superdelegates (who have no legal requirement to follow the popular vote in their own states, rather "who can beat the other party's candidate" ... hmm.... could that anything like "business as usual"?)
Here we are with more state primaries in the future but the DNC has already taken the vote away from voters in 2 states because of perceived "privilege" of the DNC to demand order to it's idea of order. So my question is: why should the voters in the remaining states bother?
Answer: because we care and still (silly I know) believe our vote makes a difference.
I say every state in the USA vote in primaries the same damned day and let's be done with it. And while were at it, let's get rid of these stupid party conventions, which are nothing more than a paid vacation for party hacks and a perfect ecample of copious consumption and mutual icky worthless bakrubs (sorry that's the polite-ess way I can describe it since I do know convention delegates and superdelegates ... iiiicccckkk ... someone hand me some pumice stone...)
EGADS!!!! I am even on friendly first-name basis with several elected officials, local, state and federal... damn it... someone hand me a salt as well.... (ooh, and alcohol...)
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don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
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Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Umm, you quoted Golden Key, not me.
oops! my bad....is very late and I'm sitting once again all alone in the ship's cafe...my fault for multi-tasking.... the view fromt he bridge is ... hmmm ...foggy...
[ 24. March 2008, 03:34: Message edited by: Cruella ]
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don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
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Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
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Posted
Trying to fix this:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Let's remember that this is a Democratic Party nomination process and not some patriotic obligation that "everyone have a chance to vote."
[snipped the rest for sake of bandwith (and I agree with all that was snipped]
now look back at my previous response....
[I'm such a stupid newbie with quoting people ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ...sigh... I promise to get better.]
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don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cruella:
I say every state in the USA vote in primaries the same damned day and let's be done with it.
Why doesn't this happen? From an adminstrative point of view, surely it makes no difference?
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by Cruella:
I say every state in the USA vote in primaries the same damned day and let's be done with it.
Why doesn't this happen? From an adminstrative point of view, surely it makes no difference?
From what I've understood from this thread, that would be like trying to make the UK vote on the same day as every other European country for a referendum on some EU issue. It's the United States, not the United State.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Orb:
quote:
Originally posted by Cruella:
I say every state in the USA vote in primaries the same damned day and let's be done with it.
Why doesn't this happen? From an adminstrative point of view, surely it makes no difference?
It's not necessarily desirable. For then, a candidate would have to have the resources to run nationally before the first vote was cast in order to have any kind of chance. That would pretty much have doomed Obama from the beginning, but might have favored someone like the current incumbent.
What may need consideration is how states are positioned in the system of primaries. Perhaps we should randomly select the order every 4 years. Based on the random order for that election, the states could be divided into clumps of equally sized delegate or population counts. The clumps would then hold their primaries two or three weeks apart. Alternatively, the clumps could start small and increase in size. Whatever. Just something with a random preselection to stop all this complaining about the order.
There are problems in the above in coordinating Republican and Democratic primary systems, but these are addressable.
Arguments against such a thing that I have heard are that folks in Iowa and New Hampshire are quite good at such things and that there is a culture of being involved in the process, attending candidate events and hearing multiple candidates speak, etc.
But this 'front loading' and kvetching over which state has the most influence on the process has to end.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
It's time for you to sacrifice your personal political ambition for the good of the nation and concede.
What, before the Pennsylvania primaries? Do you have any idea how excited people in this State are that their vote will matter for a change? College students are energized about politics, party membership, and voting for the first time in decades. Many thousands of independents and Republicans have registered Democratic (today is the last day they can do so) so that they can participate in this election. Some of them won't change back: they're fed up with the GOP and making a clean break, but this opportunity is what impelled them to make the change. Let's not disappoint them already.
Because there are still two candidates, Barack and Hillary are in the news. Has McCain said anything important lately, other than responding to charges that he's in the pockets of telecom corporations?
[ 25. March 2008, 00:14: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cruella
Apprentice
# 13502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
It's not necessarily desirable. For then, a candidate would have to have the resources to run nationally before the first vote was cast in order to have any kind of chance. That would pretty much have doomed Obama from the beginning, but might have favored someone like the current incumbent.
I'm not sure why it's not necessarily desirable. Tons of money could be saved if the states would just pick ONE day, say sometime in April or May when the LAST ten states have primary elections (and their votes are usually historically useless) and then let both parties have their silly convention parteeeeee with silly hats!!!!!!!!!!.
Yes, go ahead and advertise, debate and visit states for a year plus 2-5 months, but make EVERY state's vote count all at once on the same level playing field.
McCain is touring the Middle East instead of the USA this past week.
Yeppers! Lots of votes there!
[ 25. March 2008, 00:53: Message edited by: Cruella ]
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don't take more than you can eat in one sitting. Hide the bones. Bring on the dogs!
Posts: 39 | From: beautiful backwoods | Registered: Mar 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cruella:
Yes, go ahead and advertise, debate and visit states for a year plus 2-5 months, but make EVERY state's vote count all at once on the same level playing field.
This would still heavily favor candidates who are already well-known across the country.
(We've already had this discussion on this thread, by the way -- go back to page three and start with moonlit door's wondering why we can't have all the primaries on the same day.)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
What, before the Pennsylvania primaries? Do you have any idea how excited people in this State are that their vote will matter for a change? College students are energized about politics, party membership, and voting for the first time in decades...
Their vote will matter in that Clinton will close the gap on Obama for the Dem nomination but still be short of his lead. This will embolden her to continue advancing a desperate personal ambition at the expense of the party taking the Presidency. There are FIVE months till the August Democratic Convention. Obama will be slowly picked to pieces by the sensationalist whoremonger media drones until he arrives at the convention a tattered shell in the eyes of the public. He will still lead in committed delegates. The super-delegates will eventually look upon Obama's five month ordeal and decide he's unelectable. Hillary will be cast aside as the shrill, self-serving schemer she is and the convention will descend into brokered chaos.
John Edwards will be appointed Democratic nominee chosing Bill Richardson as VP and both will lose to John McCain in the general election. All of your newly energized PA college students will realize that they contributed to the failure of the last, best hope for this nation. Pennsylvania will vote overwhelmingly for John McCain.
So, go for it Hillary. Take it to the convention and let everyone's vote count for nothing when you get there.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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