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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, they were Twitter messages from the PM's office.

Link

He was talking to an audience of course but to paraphrase Admiral Josh Painter in The Hunt for Red October...

quote:
"Politician don't take a dump without a plan son!"

Either way, the whole middle east is fucked. Personally I'm hoping for a greater Israel... from the Mediterranean to ooh, India?

That would be amusing, Pakistan with Indian nukes on one side and Israeli nukes on t'other. Sweeeeet!

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Albertus
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# 13356

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...and Pakistani nukes in the middle? I think I was right: you really do get off on the idea of great oig bangs and towering mushroom clouds, don't you?
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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
...and Pakistani nukes in the middle? I think I was right: you really do get off on the idea of great oig bangs and towering mushroom clouds, don't you?

Ahh... I'm a simple soul. Here's and old joke from the mid 80's. "The weather forecast for Tehran today is partly cloudy and temperatures reaching 100,000 degrees".

It was funny then and it's still funny now.

Hell, we've got 'em and they ain't. Let's use 'em I say.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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Ah, this is like Screwtape Letters, with Deano showing us what the Devil would say, or Colbert with his extreme parody of the crazy right wing. Well done! It took me a while to get it. I thought you were actually a loathsome hate-filled monster!

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Ah, this is like Screwtape Letters, with Deano showing us what the Devil would say, or Colbert with his extreme parody of the crazy right wing. Well done! It took me a while to get it. I thought you were actually a loathsome hate-filled monster!

Oh no. It ain't trolling if you really believe it. Sorry to pop that particular balloon.

I also like to read P J O'Rourke and Ann Coulter. and Jeremy Clarkson.

[ 22. August 2014, 22:01: Message edited by: deano ]

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Seriously, nobody recognises the voice of the terrorist who beheaded the journalist, no British muslim out there at all has any clue? Or do they have a clue and are just not ringing the police?

You don't think that people close to this individual might have fears for their life if they were to make a report?

Even more than that, deano: You don't think it possible that someone has in fact made a report which is being investigated?

Why should YOU deano, be told that a British muslim has in fact made a report and has called the police? Why would anyone inform YOU? What are YOU going to do about it?

Absolutely bloody nothing. You have no ability to investigate and find out whether such a witness is accurate. Nor, if it's verified to be accurate, do you have any ability to take action against the terrorist in question.

It's just laughable that you go from "no-one has told me who the terrorist is" to "no-one has told anyone who the terrorist might be".

It makes about as much sense as saying that the US couldn't possibly have tracked down and killed Osama bin Laden because they never let you in on the plan. If it really happened, it would have been broadcast live on cable!

[ 23. August 2014, 00:25: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Deano, please stop being an asshole.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Deano, please stop being an asshole.

But you only think I am because of you socialist views. If you didn't have those you may - like MPC - completely agree with me.

Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Two points here, deano. (i) One doesn't have to be a socialist to think that you're an arsehole. I suspect, from following threads you've been involved in, that there's more than one very definitely non-socialist shipmate who thinks you're an arsehole. (ii) It's 'if you didn't have those you might - not may- completely agree with me'. The use of 'may' where 'might' is required is increasingly common these days, but it is still almost always a sign that the writer is not thinkiong about what he or she is saying.
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rolyn
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# 16840

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Thing is, if you're fighting assholes it's usually necessary to become one yourself.
As much as we all might like Islamic extremism to simply pack it's bags and go away that isn't going to happen.

Banging on about nukes is a bit silly at this stage . We can be sure there are no quick fixes on offer, just the same old carrot and stick mid-east policy the West has used ever since the day we poked our nose in.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Martin60
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# 368

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Jesus agrees with you too deano.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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rolyn, which is why we should buy them off and talk to them.

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Love wins

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Deano reminds me of a computer game about world politics I was shown once (at an astronomy meeting!?) in which any and every scenario ended with nuclear war. There were only limited choices available, though. No giving aid to developing countries, for example. No negotiating with half friendly governments. No interfering with the arms trade. I can't remember what the choices were - probably who one allied with. But they all ended up going boom. I considered it to be very boring, and not worth playing, unless one wanted to see simulations of mushroom clouds. It didn't run simulations of the consequences. (I think the man who was so pleased with showing it off may have had something to do with an organisation which valued IQ tests rather highly.)
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

The sole premise of the post was that you are currently being an asshole.

The evidence that this is true is overwhelming to anyone who has not in fact disappeared up the anus in question.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Penny S: Deano reminds me of a computer game about world politics I was shown once (at an astronomy meeting!?) in which any and every scenario ended with nuclear war.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

[ 23. August 2014, 11:24: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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THAT'S what Jesus did.

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Love wins

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

The sole premise of the post was that you are currently being an asshole.

The evidence that this is true is overwhelming to anyone who has not in fact disappeared up the anus in question.

Assholes can be recognised by the shit coming out of them.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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L'organist
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# 17338

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posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard
quote:
which is why we should buy them off and talk to them.
In theory buying them off is fine, laudable, civilised and better than brute force and ignorance.

The trouble is, ISIS (or IS) is possibly the best-funded group of fundamentalists ever - so buy them off with what? Money they have; most consumer durables they (allegedly) despise; land - well they seem pretty good at taking that at gun point; more arms would be self-defeating and, in any case, they're fully-stocked with up-to-date weaponry courtesy of the fleeing Iraqi army.

As for talking to them: they won't listen. They regard everyone - absolutely everyone, religion immaterial - who is not IS as an enemy; they even regard most of their fellow muslims as heretics. They accept no nuances or subtleties of opinion in relation to anything: their way is not only the right way, it is the only way.

Any attempt to try to put yourself in their position to understand where they're coming from is interpreted as weakness, or deviousness and weakness.

The only hope with this kind of absolutist mind-set is that time (or real life) brings about a toning down or loosening of attitudes. The problem for the rest of us is that for the people in the immediate area where they are at the moment there is no time. And as IS gets stronger and spreads geographically so more people are left in the same position of having no options and no time.

The same situation was true in past centuries, of course; but where it is so much more dangerous now is that modern communications mean they can advertise their revolting barbarism over the worldwide web, and use the same web to spread their poisonous doctrine of alienation, hatred and violence.

As I've said upthread, any attempt to 'understand' will be interpreted as weakness. I speak with some small knowledge having watched young Iranians I lived with in the 1970s turn from perfectly ordinary run-of-the-mill students into fanatics almost overnight who were as the deaf adder in Psalm 58 - except, of course, that the adder was female and there is nothing more calculated to infuriate your male muslim fanatic than being likened, however remotely, to something female.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Very well said L'organist. In that case we must pay and submit. That's what Jesus did. Subversively. Don't play the game. Talk to them to say we surrender, we have erred, we are sorry, how can we make amends, what do you require? They win and therefore lose.

A good fable.

It's not going to happen, the US alone can EASILY fix the problem, it just doesn't want to be worse than they are. That's all total war costs. So it will compromise and maintain the status quo.

So can WE Christians find a way to be cotton wool between these sharp stones in the geological specimen box?

I have NO idea and can only continue to want to repent of discouraging in working that out.

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Love wins

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deano
princess
# 12063

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We need to be stronger than they are, more ruthless than they are and more vicious than they are. If they think we can and will exterminate them out of hand without a moments thought then they will probably leave the west alone.

I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?

Buy them off? Great, give them more money to spend on weapons an operations. Twat.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We need to be stronger than they are, more ruthless than they are and more vicious than they are. If they think we can and will exterminate them out of hand without a moments thought then they will probably leave the west alone.

Ah, "they". Such a wonderfully non-specific phrase. Everyone can nod their heads in agreement without engaging in the tricky task of working out who "they" are.

Enjoy your global game of Hatfields and McCoys.

Also, funny how what you care about is that leave the West alone. So long as "they" only murder Shiites, Yazidis and Iraqi Christians, you're fine with that, right? But by golly, touch a Westerner and...

[ 23. August 2014, 13:26: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:


I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?


If you read your history you will find out that Rome endured some terrible defeats and they defined the extent of Roman territory. Teutoburg Forest, the running battles against the Gauls and Celts, the Battle of Carrhae, in what is now Turkey, plus a whole raft of defeats in Africa before Carthage was subdued.

There was a Pax Romanus, but it only held where Rome saw fit, and Romans were smart enough not to pretend otherwise.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Whither the United Nations: sacrificed on the altar of Mammon. While the difference between them and us is merely in the packaging.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:


I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?


If you read your history you will find out that Rome endured some terrible defeats and they defined the extent of Roman territory. Teutoburg Forest, the running battles against the Gauls and Celts, the Battle of Carrhae, in what is now Turkey, plus a whole raft of defeats in Africa before Carthage was subdued.

There was a Pax Romanus, but it only held where Rome saw fit, and Romans were smart enough not to pretend otherwise.

Yes, I didn't pick up the claim that a Roman citizen could walk across the "known world". As opposed to being able to walk across the Roman empire.

I did notice, though, that it's Pax Romana not Pax Romanus, and then I noticed that the Wikipedia article on Pax Romana states that it's the exact opposite of what deano is conceiving, in that the entire point was to have genuine peace rather than to intimidate all opponents into submission, which was the previous Roman tradition.

And then I noticed that the Wikipedia article on Roman citizenship and the rights involved says nothing at all about this notion of having military might behind your back. In fact, the only reference I can find to that notion is a quote from an episode of The West Wing.

quote:
Originally said by President Josiah Bartlet:
Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus -- I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens.

Great show, but hardly a bastion of historical accuracy.

But let's not allow all those trivial details to stand in the way.

[ 23. August 2014, 13:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Damn my Latin. And recall of the subtleties too.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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And now, thanks to my curiosity, I've found two debunkings of the West Wing claim. One of which says the error didn't start with the West Wing, but with the Pope in the Middle Ages.

West Wing/Proportional Response

The City of Rome

I really should stop trying to drag deano into the real world, it can only end in tears.

[The poor scroll lock…poor, poor thing —A.]

[ 24. August 2014, 03:33: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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Deano wrote:

quote:
I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?

So, you want a world where if a western traveller gets beaten up by some drunken cops in a non-western country, troops from NATO or ANZUS or whatever will come parachuting down to rain holy hell on that country?

As an expatriated westerner, allow me to say that that idea is, well, the polar opposite of smart.

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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Another thing, Deano. Read the comments on this article about two Canadians detained in Egypt, and government efforts to help them.

About 85% of them are along the lines of "These idiots go to a third world hellhole and now they want the government to bail them out??" I have even seen comments laughing at the prospect of them being raped in jail.

And these comments are almost all coming from Canadians. So I'd really question how much support there is in the west for your idea that we should risk our soldiers lives to avenge compatriots overseas.

[ 23. August 2014, 14:23: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Martin PC etc

Paying and submitting is not an option if we are expected to have back in this country people who have committed such atrocities and who are on record as looking forward to doing more of the same on our own streets.

For the UK, I'd say that as a precautionary measure anyone who comes back to the UK from Syria should be subject to rigorous investigation - and be under a sensible control order while that is ongoing - until it can be proved that we aren't bring back either someone guilty of war crimes on foreign soil and/or who is hell-bent on perpetrating similar atrocities once back here.

I can here the civil liberties lobby howling even now but I think in this instance we should err on the side of caution: I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the government to do its utmost to protect the majority of UK citizens against the demented barbarism of a small minority.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

Is it just the oil? I suppose so, plus so-called 'strategic interests'. The West seems to have had a love/hate relationship with the Arab world for a long time, and can't leave them alone.

It's striking that massacres in many parts of the world, e.g. Congo, elicit indifference by Western politicians and intellectuals. I suppose Congo is not in our 'sphere of interest' or something. I think 4 million have died there in the recent wars.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

Is it just the oil? I suppose so, plus so-called 'strategic interests'. The West seems to have had a love/hate relationship with the Arab world for a long time, and can't leave them alone.

It's striking that massacres in many parts of the world, e.g. Congo, elicit indifference by Western politicians and intellectuals. I suppose Congo is not in our 'sphere of interest' or something. I think 4 million have died there in the recent wars.

My suspicion is that in the West, many people have this idea of Africa always being a region of poverty, violence, and criminality, so the result is "why bother, Africa has always been that way, why bother interfering?"*

*Conveniently forgetting or being ignorant of the legacy of European colonialism in Africa

The interesting thing about American rhetoric in the Middle East is how different players play the "Evil" role in discourse. First Al Queda was Evil! Then it was Saddam Hussein and Iraq, then it was Assad. Now it is ISIS and there are reports that the US is planning on supporting Assad in its campaign against ISIS:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/west-poised-to-join-forces-with-president-assad-in-face-of-islamic-state- 9686666.html

Basically everyone in the Middle East can play the Evil character, except Israel and Saudi Arabia.

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Stetson
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Anglican Brat wrote:

quote:
As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.


It's never been clear to me how backing Israel helps the US secure mideast oil. I think FDR and the Saudis basically made the deal to become BFF in the 40s. No Israeli sidekick required. And it's not like Israel's colonization of Pelestine is bringing vast new oilfields under American domain.

I've heard it argued that the alliance with Israel makes it easier for the US to project power into the mideast, but I don't see how. There must be a zillion other ways to run their military show(western powers certainly had no trouble doing that pre-48).

And if it's soft power we're talking about, that is hardly enhanced by having your main ally being the most hated country in the region.

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Sioni Sais
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The UK Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond has said no to joining with Assad's Syrian government, although it appears to pre-date the State Department's statement, so things could change.

[ 23. August 2014, 17:22: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
My suspicion is that in the West, many people have this idea of Africa always being a region of poverty, violence, and criminality, so the result is "why bother, Africa has always been that way, why bother interfering?"*


Actually, France has been pretty deeply involved in post-colonial Africa, mostly in terms of funding, arming, and sometimes providing military backup for dictators of their choice, much like the US in Latin America.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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And if it's soft power we're talking about, that is hardly enhanced by having your main ally being the most hated country in the region.

There is a big difference between the Arab regimes and the Arab populations on the street.

The Arabs on the street, may hate Israel, but the Arab governments on the other hand, may be ambivalent or mildly supportive of what Israel is doing. The reason why some Arab regimes, particularly Egypt, have been relatively quiet about Israel's current action in Gaza is that they also despise Hamas and would not cry a tear if it was dismantled.

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Stetson
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quote:
The reason why some Arab regimes, particularly Egypt, have been relatively quiet about Israel's current action in Gaza is that they also despise Hamas and would not cry a tear if it was dismantled.


Isn't Egypt possibly also restrained in its commentary by American money, sent over partly on the condition that Egypt be nice to Israel?

I'm asking seriously, because I don't know how blunt Egypt usually is in its opposition to Israeli policy.

And yes, it's true that arab governments may be more tolerant of Israel than the arab masses. But, honestly, if you're the US government, is your ideal ally really going to be the one that provokes street riots against itself across the whole region?

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Stetson
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# 9597

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One more thing...

Even if countries like Egypt approve of Israel going after Hamas, the fact is that Hamas only exists in the first place as a reastion against Israeli policy.

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LeRoc

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I imagine that at least some Arab countries would be willing to tolerate Hamas right now, because removing them from their sphere of influence would leave a vacuum where ISIS could step in.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I imagine that at least some Arab countries would be willing to tolerate Hamas right now, because removing them from their sphere of influence would leave a vacuum where ISIS could step in.

Well, something catastrophic has happened in Iraq along those lines. Some of the Sunni tribes had previously fought against Al Quaeda and had driven them out, and had even allied with the US forces, (the so-called 'Awakening' groups).

So there was hope of some kind of peace in Iraq, with the extreme radicals neutralized.

As I said, something has happened to wreck this. Some journalists are saying that it is Maliki's sectarian policies; but possibly, it is also just greed, i.e. trying to take all the financial contracts and cold-shouldering the tribes.

At any rate, this time the tribal leaders seem not to have opposed IS, partly to bring down Maliki.

However, there must still be Sunni who don't want IS bossing everything; who knows if they can begin to group together. Their previous association with the US is now looking like a death warrant, however.

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Martin60
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# 368

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God bless you deano. Can you join up the dots for me? If you don't fight your enemy, if you refuse to have an enemy, why does he need weapons?

L'organist. My fantasy will happen one day. It is written. We will declare peace. We will love our enemies.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

This may also apply to interacting with deano.

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deano
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# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My suspicion is that in the West, many people have this idea of Africa always being a region of poverty, violence, and criminality, so the result is "why bother, Africa has always been that way, why bother interfering?"*

*Conveniently forgetting or being ignorant of the legacy of European colonialism in Africa

Wonderful! Exactly the scenario's I painted upthread. Blame us for supporting Israel, blame us for wanting oil, blame us for having an Empire.

No, blame the muslims for being fuckwitted followers of a non-religion that advocates violence, and for not getting a grip on their children.

We are going to support Israle - that is non-negotiable.

We are going to require their oil until we have developed an adequate independent energy supply for both static (power stations) and modile (cars, planes etc) that allows us to maintain our economies at the present scales, and to grow them as we see fit - that is non-negotiable.

We have had a colonial past, an Empire, and some of us see that as something to be proud of not revilled. Regardless, it is a fact of history and not something that we are going to apolgise for, nor make so-called reparations for - that is non-negotiable.

that's how the real world looks. That is what it is. Stop whinning about it, it isn't going to go away.

Don't you realise how pathetic it makes you look... "Oh how we are wrong, oh how we are to be blamed, oh how we should roll over and let them fuck us and our children!"

Well you can get fucked. I'd rather drop a nuke or napalm on them and lock them up indefinitely.

[ 24. August 2014, 08:05: Message edited by: deano ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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The strange thing is that deano sounds very like Al Quaeda - the same puffed up bombast, and declarations of mercilessness. Mirror-images?

[ 24. August 2014, 08:15: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Stetson
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Not to sound like a heartless jerk or anything, but does anyone else find it a little odd the way the death of James Foley is being portrayed as some sort of moral turning-point in all this?

"..a new context for confronting Isis..."

He's hardly the first civilian killed by Isis in this conflict. Maybe the first American, but the US didn't declare war on El Salvador because of the Maryknoll nuns(for example).

And I can't help but noting that Foley was very much the kind of victim who tugs the heartstrings of well-meaning western liberals: young, progressive world traveller, eager to explore and understand foreign cultures and peoples. As opposed to some slackjawed missionary from Oklahoma who went over to hand out bibles and fridge magnets.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Yes, I thought the same. There is a kind of subterranean racism in all this - IS can kill lots of towelheads, who after all, are (some of them), themselves Muslims, but a nice American boy with clean-cut features - that is a step too far.

Another point is that the Kurds, who are actually on the frontline against IS, are themselves (many of them) Sunni.

At the moment, though, they are good towelheads, although the PKK is still listed as a terrorist organization!

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Martin60
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Whereas you are a fuckwitted follower of a religion that advocates violence.

Which is obviously what Jesus came to teach.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Other weird things that seem to be happening in the region - Hezbollah have raised their heads as voices of moderation, against IS; Iran is supposed to be arming the Kurdish fighters; Al Quaeda has condemned IS as too extreme; as have the Saudis.

It's a bit like musical chairs - who will be Western favourites, when the music stops?

Incidentally, IS have been decapitating Syrian rebels for months, and releasing the videos, but as said above, they are towelheads, so nobody bothers about it.

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Stetson
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quetzlcoatl wrote:

quote:
Hezbollah have raised their heads as voices of moderation, against IS
Well, remember, Hezbollah are Shiite in orientation, and IS is basically the Sunni supremacist version of the Ku Klux Klan. So, if nothing else, it's in Hezbollah's mortal interest to oppose IS.

But it'll be interesting to see if this leads to any ad hoc alliances between western interests and Hezbollah. Right now, everyone's waiting with popcorn in hand to see how far our leaders can go with attacking ISIS in Syria without cutting any deals with the Baathists, the mortal enemy of six months ago.

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