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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.
Is that clear enough for you?
That is clear to me .
Just a tad unnerving as your mindset seems identical to the average Joe-IS currently committing atrocities in Northern Iraq.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Well, perhaps that's what it will take. A mindset that matches theirs rather than a mindset that is weaker than theirs and has no answers anyway.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.
And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.
Yes. I just showed this stuff to my wife, and she laughed like a drain, and said, you wally, you've been set up. Damn, I thought I'd got good at detecting wind-ups. There's no fool like an old fool.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
Deano,
How do you define your neighbour?
You seem to be a member of the same subset of Christianity as Anders Breivik only without the willingness to suit actions to words.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.
And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.
Yes. I just showed this stuff to my wife, and she laughed like a drain, and said, you wally, you've been set up. Damn, I thought I'd got good at detecting wind-ups. There's no fool like an old fool.
Seriously? Is that what you and she believe?
I am quite serious.
If you think I am winding you up, fair enough. There's nothing I can do to stop that except to say it isn't.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quetzalcoatl - unfortunately deano is consistently the same poster across the boards - and this suggests he's for real.
I have met and worked with teenage boys (and their fathers) who have similar views. Too much CoD and war-gaming seems to build some very unrealistic ideas as to what is possible and how real people react.
I guess what we should request is that games designers include radicalisation as an effect of actions and that the implementation of a nuclear weapon ends the game with everyone killed.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A mindset like Jesus'?
[ 25. August 2014, 11:58: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quetzalcoatl - unfortunately deano is consistently the same poster across the boards - and this suggests he's for real.
I have met and worked with teenage boys (and their fathers) who have similar views. Too much CoD and war-gaming seems to build some very unrealistic ideas as to what is possible and how real people react.
I guess what we should request is that games designers include radicalisation as an effect of actions and that the implementation of a nuclear weapon ends the game with everyone killed.
Yes, it depends on what you mean by 'real'. I've met wind-up people who kept it up for years and years, and kind of lived inside the part. As you say, teenage boys can go on like this for a long time, but a lot of them grow up. But not all of them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I'm afraid deano is all too real. It's down to his arrested development due to the bullying he received at school.
Similar arrested development leads people to become jihadists.
If we wanted to be reductionist about it, then we could say that Kaiser Bill started WW1 because he was bullied over his withered arm, that Napoleon wanted to conquer the whole of Europe because he had a very small willy and deano ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think he didn't get enough titty from his mummy; it's well known that this produces intense revenge fantasies for the rest of one's life. I bet a lot of jihadists are into heavy titty porn.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
By the way, my quote above was paraphrased from Jed Bartlett's speech in The West Wing. Is it accurate? No and a few of you have shown that to be the case.
That is an irrelevance though. i agree with the principle.
An irrelevance, eh?
You agree with a principle that hasn't been shown to work in practice. You were quite keen, originally, on the fact that it had been shown to work in practice. It's interesting that it's taken you this long to recover from the blow to your argument and come back with "I don't care if it hasn't been done before! It's STILL right!"
[ 25. August 2014, 12:22: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that such religious hatred is OK on this forum. Is it really alright to advocate dropping a nuclear bomb on Mecca?
Leave the hosting to the Hosts, thanks.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .
Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think he didn't get enough titty from his mummy; it's well known that this produces intense revenge fantasies for the rest of one's life. I bet a lot of jihadists are into heavy titty porn.
Well now if not getting enough from my mother made me right-wing, then may I suggest that given the totality of your left-wing views, you may have got too much from your mother. Indeed, I suspect you were fucking her anally for quite a few years to become so socialist.
I hope you and she enjoyed it. Perhaps your wife might like to read this little post as well.
Of course, if she wants a real man who cares enough about her to not have her forced into a burkha, then she'll have to look around for someone other than you.
And I bet your fucking ugly. With a small dick.
Hey Martin, would Jesus tell quetzalcoatl he's fucking ugly witha small dick? I bet he would. I bet Jesus would have gone "Hey quetzal fellah, you are one ugly fucker, and you have a small dick! Ha! Hey Peter, come and look at this ugly fucker with a small dick!".
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .
Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.
What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.
Err, I said we WILL win at a stroll. Not we DID win at a stroll.
Proof-reading before hitting "Add Reply" is your friend. Try it. Dickhead.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's 'you're' not 'your'.
They obviously didn't learn you how to spell proper at that sink-estate school you managed to escape from through force of arms.
Knuckle-dragger.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .
Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.
What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.
Err, I said we WILL win at a stroll. Not we DID win at a stroll.
Proof-reading before hitting "Add Reply" is your friend. Try it. Dickhead.
This dickhead can read just fine. I find it utterly hilarious that you think we'll win at a stroll precisely because this isn't remotely the history of our engagement in the region during the last 35 years.
Learning history before posting ludicrous propositions is your friend. Try it. Large grotesque caricature with a brain the size of a microbe.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's 'you're' not 'your'.
They obviously didn't learn you how to spell proper at that sink-estate school you managed to escape from through force of arms.
Knuckle-dragger.
What a pity you're completely wrong. Stay out of it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I was right about it being 'you're' and not 'your'.
'You're ugly' not 'your ugly'.
But I'll stay out of it. The rest of the post was a jibe because ...
Oh never mind ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I was right about it being 'you're' and not 'your'.
'You're ugly' not 'your ugly'.
But I'll stay out of it. The rest of the post was a jibe because ...
Oh never mind ...
Oh FFS. Look at which post was the last one. It would not be correct to say "Proof-reading before hitting 'Add Reply' is you are friend." PROOF-READING IS YOUR FRIEND.
But I bet you were making a crack at the post higher up the page, right?
If you can't be arsed to learn how to use quotation marks or otherwise indicate which post you're replying to, are we supposed to guess? Are we psychic?
And if all you've got to contribute is a pissweak little grammar lesson, then yes, stay out of it.
[ 25. August 2014, 13:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This thing about winning at a stroll is odd, since while the invasion of Iraq did go quite easily, since the Iraqui army largely melted away, yet it has produced the mother of all messes, and the smashing of its infrastructure, and in part, IS itself. How would we go on and win then? I suppose drop a nuclear bomb on Baghdad, that will stop the ragheads whining about Western imperialism.
Cue song, 'genocide is painless, it brings on many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please ...'
[ 25. August 2014, 13:20: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll ...
I suspect that the kind of war you're talking about might not have any winners, or if it did, they wouldn't have anywhere safe to live.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
It all makes more sense once you realize that deano is fundamentally a coward.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Oh it's a rising-tide of it, is it? Not just me then?
From the article, Mr Youssef is quoted as saying...
quote:
"It is our duty as Australians to speak out against the terror and genocide happening in the Middle East and elsewhere," he said.
Well go on then. Don't let me stop you. Whilst your at it Mr Youssef can you name names please?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh yes, because an Australian Muslim has the whole of Iraq and Syria on speed dial. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Do you know what the MOST irritating part of the deano show is? For me, anyway?
It's the constant jumping up and down demanding that other people come up with solutions and information and what-not.
As if anybody has TIME in between reacting to your ideas. Seriously. We're dealing with someone who thinks that it's preferable to spend 5 minutes coming up with an idiotic solution and doing it NOW rather than spending days or weeks considering approaches to a nuanced and complex problem.
If you'd just stop dominating the thread like a yapping dog and shut the fuck up for a while, maybe the rest of us would actually have time to discuss something else besides your relentless egotistical dominance of the conversation through deliberately offering up the most over-the-top schemes you can think of.
I don't think you actually want solutions. I think you actively enjoy being the centre of attention. I think you're a childish troll.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I have been informed in the Styx that I am engaging in hate-speech. I reject that and I will clarify it...
1) I have no wish to kill any innocent people. But in wars they do die. That's the nature of war. If innocents have to die then I prefer them to be of the muslim faith than western. I don't believe that is hate, just a simple statement of the reality of war and of finding oneself on a particular side.
2) I believe that nobody - certainly on this thread, and not it TRW - has any answers to islamic militantism. I believe that a disproportionate response will be more productive - for the west - than a proportionate one. I don't want to drop a bomb on them because they are muslim, but because some of them want to kill me. If they were white lesbian women living in a particular part of the world trying to destroy what I hold dear then I would be equally as keen to drop a bomb on them. In fact if they were white, middle-class people living in a particular part of the world and they wanted to destroy all I hold dear, then I would advocate dropping a bomb on them too. But at the moment neither of the latter two circumstances exist. There is a real one to deal with.
3) I am a Christian - whether you like it or not - and I do not recognise islam as a legitimate faith. I'm sorry but I don't see how I can, as a Christian, recognise as an equal, a faith that doesn't agree with Christ as God made flesh, or that he was crucified and was resurrected. I agree people holding those views in faith have a right to equality under the law - that is beyond dispute - but don't ask me to personally give it legitimacy beyond what the law says I must. If you want it in stark terms, I prefer to follow a religion that says Jesus Christ was the Son of God and he rose from death, than one that denies that on the strength of some blokes dreams. Sorry.
4) I don't give a damn about the colour of anyone's skin, be they black, white, brown or whatever. A black Jew or a white Buddhist isn't out to destroy the culture I live in and force me to convert to their faith. A white muslim might well be.
5) I admit I do hate people to want to destroy me, my family, my faith, my country or my culture. Be they muslim or whatever. It's just that at the moment the ones who do want to destroy those things ARE muslim. Do I hate all muslims? No. No I do not. Let me state that loud and clear. There is a definite line to be drawn in the sand here and I will make it clear that I do NOT hate all muslims. I do hate the ones with violence in their hearts. I'm just not sure what is in the hearts of the remaining ones. As keeps getting quoted on the ship "By their fruits shall you know them". I want to see the fruits of their moderation.
6) I really don't give a rat-fuck about some of the amateur psychology or grammar-Nazis that aren't able to keep up with the debate and want to divert it, and I'm more than willing to get down and dirty trading offensive insults if that's what is desired.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Do I hate all muslims? No. No I do not.
Then maybe you'd like to retract the suggestion of locking up all Muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30 without trial?
And maybe you'd like to find a capital letter once in a while. If you are a "Christian" then they are "Muslims". If you're going to continue to talk about "muslims", I'm going to start calling you a "christian". You successfully capitalise "Jew" and "Buddhist" while relentlessly refusing to give followers of Islam the same courtesy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.
And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.
Yes. I just showed this stuff to my wife, and she laughed like a drain, and said, you wally, you've been set up. Damn, I thought I'd got good at detecting wind-ups. There's no fool like an old fool.
I pretty much stopped buying into Deano's blue-collar-hero, shock-the-guardianistas schtick a couple of pages back. I'm sure he believes in the overall viewpoint he's promoting, but his presentation is just so over the top, I can't really take it seriously as engagable commentary.
Mileage may vary, but unless one is the kind of person who enjoys trolling as an art form in and of itself, I'd recomment just disengaging from Deano's discourse.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
That friend speaks my mind.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Then maybe you'd like to retract the suggestion of locking up all Muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30 without trial?
No. As I say, I don't want to intern them because the are muslim, but because many of them have death-to-the-west in their hearts and I can't decide which is which from their fruits.
I'll advocate locking up white Christians if they are trying to kill me. Like we did in NI in the 60's & 70's. No problem at all. Not hate, just a practical suggestion for handling people who DO hate us in the west.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And maybe you'd like to find a capital letter once in a while. If you are a "Christian" then they are "Muslims". If you're going to continue to talk about "muslims", I'm going to start calling you a "christian". You successfully capitalise "Jew" and "Buddhist" while relentlessly refusing to give followers of Islam the same courtesy.
How unsurprising that someone as PC as you noticed that I was doing that. It was deliberate on my part.
No I will not give them the benefit of capital letters. Why should I when I do not give their faith equal credence to mine except so far as the law mandates it. The law doesn't say I must capitalise any words as far as I'm aware.
I'll knock of the capitalism of buddhist by all means, and any others that I refer to in teh future such as hindu or shinto. Not Jew though, because Christ was a Jew and they are part of the Judeo-Christian ethos that underpins my own faith. I'll give them the same respect as Christianity.
[ 25. August 2014, 15:04: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How unsurprising that someone as PC as you noticed that I was doing that. It was deliberate on my part.
No I will not give them the benefit of capital letters. Why should I when I do not give their faith equal credence to mine except so far as the law mandates it. The law doesn't say I must capitalise any words as far as I'm aware.
I'll knock of the capitalism of buddhist by all means, and any others that I refer to in teh future such as hindu or shinto. Not Jew though, because Christ was a Jew and they are part of the Judeo-Christian ethos that underpins my own faith. I'll give them the same respect as Christianity.
It's not because I'm PC, it's because I'm a professional writer who is paid for his analytical skills and attention to detail.
You are a pathetic little shit, aren't you? Bending the normal rules of the English language to make a point. Mostly a point about your insecurity.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't mind anyone having a go at Guardianistas and alleged PC-ness and whatever else, provided they do it from a position of insight and credibility ...
Rather than them simply being a twat.
In deano's case that would be rather too much to ask.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There are certainly British Kurds going out to fight with the peshmerga; I suppose at the moment they are good guys, but just wait a few months, and maybe they will be wearing the black hats.
Maybe various governments could publish regular bulletin boards, indicating which groups are in favour and which not.
Thus, Shia militia - possibly OK, unless involved in massacres.
Sunni militia - dodgy, especially with black flags.
Kurdish militia - good guys right now.
Non-Islamist Syrian rebels - oh, I don't fucking know.
Hezbollah - formerly very bad guys, but might be useful to us.
pro-Assad groups - once very bad, but possibly on the rise now.
pro-Iranian, see under Syrian rebels, no idea.
Deano - jihadist nutter, sedate.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
Yes. We ignored the likes of you then as well.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
How about Western politicians who go out there? Are they presumed guilty?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.
The Guardian
This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.
How about Western politicians who go out there? Are they presumed guilty?
Depends what they're doing when they're out there I would suppose.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Quetzlcoatl wrote:
quote:
There are certainly British Kurds going out to fight with the peshmerga; I suppose at the moment they are good guys, but just wait a few months, and maybe they will be wearing the black hats.
Part of me thinks the whole issue of westerners fighting in the mideast is overhyped, and gets its traction more from a sense of cultural anxiety("OMG! That executioner has a BRITISH ACCENT!!"), rather than from any actual increase in threat level.
I gather the idea is that these kids are all gonna head off to fight for Isis, and come back all radicalized and ready to rumble. But, logic would dictate that they were already radicalized before they headed off to join Isis.
I suppose you could argue that actually going there and getting involved in violence makes them more likely to engage in violence when they get back to western soil, as compared to when their radicalization was just at the theoretical stage, pre-expatriation.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I've read accounts of some kids who went out to Syria, rather 'moderate', whatever that means, and getting radicalized out there. I don't know how that would work really, whether it's some kind of adolescent melodrama going on, or maybe the Islamists are the best fighters?
Also maybe it happens in civil wars - both sides tend to get more and more extreme - in the Spanish Civil War, you ended up with priests being shot in the head, and so on. I suppose this is a polarization. I remember Trotsky wrote about this, and said that civil wars become desperate really, and you end up with barbarism.
But maybe all wars do this - you end up with torture, and shooting of prisoners and so on.
[ 25. August 2014, 16:32: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Quetzlcoatl wrote:
quote:
Maybe various governments could publish regular bulletin boards, indicating which groups are in favour and which not.
Thus, Shia militia - possibly OK, unless involved in massacres.
Sunni militia - dodgy, especially with black flags.
Kurdish militia - good guys right now.
Non-Islamist Syrian rebels - oh, I don't fucking know.
Hezbollah - formerly very bad guys, but might be useful to us.
pro-Assad groups - once very bad, but possibly on the rise now.
pro-Iranian, see under Syrian rebels, no idea.
Deano - jihadist nutter, sedate.
Q, if you haven't seen it already, you may find this chart of interest.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There's something darkly comic about that. It will be interesting to see any changes.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've read accounts of some kids who went out to Syria, rather 'moderate', whatever that means, and getting radicalized out there. I don't know how that would work really, whether it's some kind of adolescent melodrama going on, or maybe the Islamists are the best fighters?
Also maybe it happens in civil wars - both sides tend to get more and more extreme - in the Spanish Civil War, you ended up with priests being shot in the head, and so on. I suppose this is a polarization. I remember Trotsky wrote about this, and said that civil wars become desperate really, and you end up with barbarism.
But maybe all wars do this - you end up with torture, and shooting of prisoners and so on.
But sometimes people come back from wars older and wiser: more disillusioned, more sceptical about their own side's propaganda, more aware that right is not all one side, more aware of the dirty aspects of warfare.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There's a bleak article in the Guardian today, by a journalist travelling with some Shia militia. They are fighting IS, but they are vowing that from now on, they want a pure Shia territory, with no more Sunni, since the Sunni tribes have gone over to IS. I don't know if there is any way back from this; but sometimes there is, as in N. Ireland. Or maybe complete separation will have to be the solution.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've read accounts of some kids who went out to Syria, rather 'moderate', whatever that means, and getting radicalized out there. I don't know how that would work really, whether it's some kind of adolescent melodrama going on, or maybe the Islamists are the best fighters?
Also maybe it happens in civil wars - both sides tend to get more and more extreme - in the Spanish Civil War, you ended up with priests being shot in the head, and so on. I suppose this is a polarization. I remember Trotsky wrote about this, and said that civil wars become desperate really, and you end up with barbarism.
But maybe all wars do this - you end up with torture, and shooting of prisoners and so on.
But sometimes people come back from wars older and wiser: more disillusioned, more sceptical about their own side's propaganda, more aware that right is not all one side, more aware of the dirty aspects of warfare.
Yes, you're right - Orwell springs to mind. He saw the infamous infighting on the left, and the Communists torturing anarchist fighters. I don't know whether you end up in despair or wisdom, or maybe both.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nobody comes out very well out of any of this.
It's been argued that the radicalisation of ISIS/Islamic State itself comes as a Sunni reaction to Shia intolerance ...
The whole thing is a godawful mess.
On the issue of the 500 UK citizens over there - mostly in Syria ... from what I can gather some of them went to provide humanitarian aid and others have gone out there with the intention of fighting. Either way, they get caught up in the whole thing and become even more radicalised once they are over there.
The fear is that they will become brutalised because of the routine beheadings and killings - and I have no reason to doubt that these aren't taking place - and come back here and cause mayhem.
I think that's a pretty reasonable cause for anxiety.
The answer, of course, isn't to nuke Iraq or Syria any more than nuking Dublin would have been an effective option to deal with Republican terrorism in Northern Ireland or nuking Buenos Aires would have been a sensible option in order to recover the Falkland Islands.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that terrorist threats shouldn't be countered robustly. I'm certainly not arguing that.
What I am contesting is the kind of video-game approach that deano appears to favour.
When the Stern Gang and other Jewish terrorists were murdering British soldiers and civilians in Palestine under the British Mandate, would the sensible option have been to nuke Tel Aviv or impound all Jewish people living in the UK?
The deano view of the world would suggest that it might have been.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
deano
Your comments have inspired a savage poetic moment:
'Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough!
Too many Muslims live there now.'
(Apologies to P. Larkin - and, of course, to all 'nice' Muslims. And to everyone else who isn't in an entirely cynical mood.)]
It highlights a problem: how are you going to wipe out worldwide Islam without destroying swathes of Olde England? Smart bombs aren't that smart!
Secondly, why would American Neo-Cons have any interest in pursuing this plan of annihilation, when they've shown no interest in going after Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Bin Laden and his family and also the least 'Westernised' country one could imagine?
No good mentioning the British - there's nowhere near enough military might here to conduct a war against the 'Muslim world'. And the French? The Germans? The Russians have a big army, but they also have a lot of Muslim soldiers (who are less likely to be off their heads on vodka). That leaves the Chinese....
Perhaps I'm becoming a conspiracy theorist in my old age, but I don't think Western governments are all that bothered about 'Islamic states' as such; they're interested in certain political problems that exist in a few of them here and there. And I don't think it's Islam that Christians have to worry about primarily - it's the sapping of Christian strength via apostasy and indifference among the indigenous Western populations. IOW, Islamic strength only matters because of Christian weakness. You could call it the decline of Western civilisation if you want to put it in non-religious terms.
Finally, since it's Hell: Islamic extremists aren't cowards, are they? Not in the sense of quaking in their boots that the Big Western Infidels are coming with their bombs to hurt them and make them cry. Don't go and bomb them (and their families, and everyone else, militant or not) unless you can kill them all in one fell swoop. Otherwise, the ones who remain are going to make my life a misery, even if they weren't too bothered before. I won't thank you for that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The thing is that Muslims, AFAICS, fall into three categories:
Firstly there are the Muslims who have no intention of murdering Deano, You may say that they are a little bit lax. I could not possibly comment. But there they are, and there are probably millions of them.
Then there are the ones who believe that, in theory, Deano ought to be killed. He is after all an infidel who does not pay the salient taxes and one must never discount the power of pure irritation. Nonetheless the Muslims in this category, whilst sagely agreeing that Deano's life is forfeit, are probably not going to do very much about it. I suspect that this category are outnumbered by category one but I have other things to do with my life than seek out Muslims who hold that Eldrad, sorry, Deano must live!
Finally you have actual Muslims who are conspiring to make an end of Deano. I suspect that these are rare but you never know your luck and if he ceases to post on the Ship for any length of time we can chalk one up to the medieval headchoppers for Mohammed. As The Blessed Freddy Mercury (PBUH) observed: Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Allah, Allah, Allah Will pray for you...Hey!
In any event, this means that any rational soul will want to dial down the bellicosity because once we realise that the difficulties in the Middle East do not revolve around Deano and that "Whack Deano" comes about 743rd on Al Quaeda's "to do" list. We can start treating Radical Islam as a problem which requires a rational solution and not an opportunity for wetting our pants and screaming for our mummy. I realise that this will require Deano to stop treating things as an opportunity for self-dramatisation but, hey, ess-aitch-one-tee happens.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
'Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough!
Too many Muslims live there now.'
(Apologies to P. Larkin - and, of course, to all 'nice' Muslims. And to everyone else who isn't in an entirely cynical mood.)]
Your apologies are due to J. Betjeman.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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