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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: U.S. Presidential Election 2016
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Thanks, Gwai!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Sweet! Split the vote as much as possible!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The BBC now say it really does look like Trump for the GOP.
Here's a telling quote.
quote:
All of which can only lead to one conclusion - Mr Trump is now going to be extremely difficult to stop.
This might help explain why Republican grandees are starting to make their first tentative moves towards Mr Trump.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
That is a very very very very very very very very early call. The actual primaries do have an effect. You'd be amazed.
For the next few months the twitterverse and it's media attachment will be saying this and that, but the reality is that we are just passing the time.
[ 24. January 2016, 00:48: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Sweet! Split the vote as much as possible!
Whose vote is he splitting? Reading his Wikipedia page, his politics look closer to Clinton than Cruz or Trump.
Not that I would classify him liberal, but than neither would I Clinton.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Please, God, make The Donald get bored and distracted, and quit the race soon. Dangle some shiny keys in front of him. Nudge him towards doing some good, or playing a lot of golf, or getting into therapy. Thanks and amen.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
But Bloomberg is perceived as more of a Republican than a Democrat. I doubt he'd split the Democratic vote much. But give the moderate Republicans someone other than a Trump or Cruz to vote for...?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
10 pages of Trump....isn't that enough for a candidate whom hasn't garnered a single vote yet?
How about the dimocrat nominee?
A lying sack of shit who can't be trusted with national security secrets, and who worked to destroy women who credibly accused her husband of sexual assault, and who solicited/received donations to her foundation while SOSOTUS from known human rights abusers....
Anyone? Hello?...
If the dimocrats are concerned about their future as a party they should be scrambling for a way to jettison Hillary...and quickly...
People who think the GOP is fucked this cycle aren't paying attention...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
People who think the GOP is fucked this cycle aren't paying attention...
The GOP is certainly fucked up. You can argue that the entire system is incredibly faulty, but to pretend that the GOP is anything other than a major part of the problem is imbecilic.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
romanlion's point, I guess, is that if the GOP is well on the way to scuppering its chances by choosing an emetic candidate, aren't the Democrats well on the way to doing the same? Which of two lousy candidates disgust you the least? Who can tell which way the electorate would vote in that case?
I think it's an aspect of the Peter principles that large organisations can often be similar to septic tanks. The choicest pieces of effluent tend to float to the top. Good people rarely make it.
I guess there is always the danger of that, so voting for the least worst option is probably quite commonplace.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I don't think I've ever been this disgusted with all the candidates in a presidential election. Both the GOP and the Democrats have their worst candidates running. Then again, I don't think any sane person would want the job at this point. As to the candidate the scares me the most it's Ted Cruz because of his Dominionist beliefs.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
10 pages of Trump....isn't that enough for a candidate whom hasn't garnered a single vote yet?
How about the dimocrat nominee?
A lying sack of shit who can't be trusted with national security secrets, and who worked to destroy women who credibly accused her husband of sexual assault, and who solicited/received donations to her foundation while SOSOTUS from known human rights abusers....
Anyone? Hello?...
If the dimocrats are concerned about their future as a party they should be scrambling for a way to jettison Hillary...and quickly...
People who think the GOP is fucked this cycle aren't paying attention...
If Trump gets the nomination and is successful then while the party may not be fucked I am certain the USA will be. He'll probably drag the rest of us down with him.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I think Hillary Clinton would seek to do the best thing for the USA as its President. I do not think Donald Trump would seek to do the best thing for the USA as its President.
The funniest thing I heard about Clinton is when a male comedian on the campaign trail eight years ago asked to be her intern if she was elected President.
With Trump, what sort of bloke says that he wouldn't lose any popularity if he shot someone? A serious egotist who is losing his grip on reality. Someone who can say that and go.'Wassa madda? Can't take a joke?' when challenged is not a person I want in the most powerful office in the most powerful country in the world. He'd be more at home in North Korea with Dennis Rodman. He could make a killing renting out apartment blocks over there.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I see that the faction of the Republican party now apparently in favour of befriending Trump is making the same mistake as the Weimar republic did with Hitler. They think they can profit from his populist appeal without countenancing the basis of that appeal. Once you legitimize hatred and anti-Semitism (Jews are not the only Semites) then you have sold the pass.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I see that the faction of the Republican party now apparently in favour of befriending Trump is making the same mistake as the Weimar republic did with Hitler. They think they can profit from his populist appeal without countenancing the basis of that appeal. Once you legitimize hatred and anti-Semitism (Jews are not the only Semites) then you have sold the pass.
And this is a great deal of why Trump is the absolute worst choice of any option. He represents one of the worst traits of our species. He is bad for America and for the rest of the world. Except for terrorists. He is good for them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I would have thought that if IS have any brains, which is debatable, they will be planning a major atrocity in the US, in order to help Trump get elected. He would probably spur on recruitment for the militants quite a lot.
There are various legendary stories - true or not, I don't know - that when the Brits took harsh measures against Republicans or nationalists in N. Ireland, e.g. internment, recruitment to the IRA went through the roof.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
This thread needs a trigger warning: don't read right before bed as it may induce insomnia or nightmares.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
romanlion's point, I guess, is that if the GOP is well on the way to scuppering its chances by choosing an emetic candidate, aren't the Democrats well on the way to doing the same? Which of two lousy candidates disgust you the least? Who can tell which way the electorate would vote in that case?
I think it's an aspect of the Peter principles that large organisations can often be similar to septic tanks. The choicest pieces of effluent tend to float to the top. Good people rarely make it.
I guess there is always the danger of that, so voting for the least worst option is probably quite commonplace.
Commonplace, indeed. Most of what I see is folks rambling on about who they will be voting against, not for. I will not vote for Hilary and romanlion's description of her seems quite apt and is part of the many reasons I won't. She is too much of a Leona Helmsley. I will be voting against Hilary. If the Republican nominee turns out to be, like in professional rassling, a masked man from parts unknown, fine. Whatever one can say about any of the current Republican field, not one of them is Hilary and, therefore, would be a better choice.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Not my call. Not my election. But I find that extraordinary. Am I right that you only get an either/or choice of two, that there are no other options?. However distasteful you might find her, surely given a choice of Trump or Mrs Clinton, wouldn't any elector hold their nose and vote for Mrs Clinton?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not my call. Not my election. But I find that extraordinary. Am I right that you only get an either/or choice of two, that there are no other options?.
There will be one Democrat ticket (President and Vice President) and one Republican ticket (President and Vice President). As mentioned yesterday, Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, is considering running as an Independent. There will probably be a few candidates from the Green Party and/or parties no one has ever heard of. This list will show you how successful independent and minor party candidates have done in the past.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Not my call. Not my election. But I find that extraordinary. Am I right that you only get an either/or choice of two, that there are no other options?. However distasteful you might find her, surely given a choice of Trump or Mrs Clinton, wouldn't any elector hold their nose and vote for Mrs Clinton?
There will be more, I'm sure. Gary Johnson is running, for example, and I prefer him but doubt he will get 1% of the vote. And, yes, I'm sure there will be nose holders voting for Hilary, as well.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Don't a candidate's policies factor into your thinking, Mere Nick? Is it all about your perception of their characters. Perceptions can be manipulated.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I cannot think that any candidate would be worse than Trump. It is notable that Republicans are even willing ton contemplate Cruz, who everybody hates, rather than Trump. Trump is a truly dangerous man.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I cannot think that any candidate would be worse than Trump. It is notable that Republicans are even willing ton contemplate Cruz, who everybody hates, rather than Trump. Trump is a truly dangerous man.
From this side of the Pond, knowing more about Trump (from his miserable forays into Scotland) than Cruz I'm inclined to agree. However, from my (entirely non-representative) facebook friends who are sharing stuff on the nomination race, as well as links shared here such as Barnabas62's above, the impression I got was that in general it's the opposite - as Barnabas's link posits, Cruz is unthinkable to the GOP establishment (presumably because of all the obnoxious Dominionist stuff), whereas at least Trump is 'biddable' (whatever that means. I suspect it means 'thick as two short planks, so perceived as easier to manipulate').
Either way, I'm getting really nervous. It is inconceivable to most Brits that someone so obviously an obnoxious stupid dangerous buffoon could be so far ahead in the polls (although clearly the Americans don't have a monopoly on obnoxious stupid dangerous buffoons, exhibit A Nigel Farage). God help us all.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
They are hoping to be able to manipulate him. You know, the way the German politicians were hoping to be able to manage Hitler. That worked out so great.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
With Trump, what sort of bloke says that he wouldn't lose any popularity if he shot someone? A serious egotist who is losing his grip on reality.
Unfortunately, he hasn't lost his grip on reality. He just knows his audience (the sad part is the statement is probably true).
People are sick and tired of politicians who lie through their teeth and make promises they don't even seem to attempt to fulfill. They're sick of the media controlling the narrative, and they're sick of the elites imposing their language (which a lot of people don't have access to) on the masses, frequently in order to demonstrate what horrible people they are.
Much as I hate Trump, sometimes I can understand his appeal.
I understand why he didn't, but I really wish Biden had run. Maybe as an independent to avoid clashing with Hillary.
The field right now is just depressing. Especially with the way the powers of the executive office have gotten expanded, I really don't want any of those people in office.
And I don't understand why people keep harping on Benghazi but are giving Clinton a complete pass on the decision to go into Libya in the first place. I'm worried that (possibly in a misguided attempt to demonstrate that just because she's a woman doesn't mean she's a dove) she's going to be way too hawkish. And I think she's too much in the pocket of corporate America to really fight for the interests of the American people.
Neither she nor Bernie seem to understand how their promise of free college plays to most Americans at this point, and as far as I can tell their most active supporters are doing an excellent job of convincing people that maybe they just shouldn't vote this election season.
Yeah, I don't know. A Trump presidency is looking more and more like a real possibility. Particularly since, as was said above, an awful lot of people seem to be voting against certain candidates rather than for them.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
For once, I agree with almost everything saysay just said (which may perhaps cause her to rethink her position...)
That being said, what do you mean by this
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Neither she nor Bernie seem to understand how their promise of free college plays to most Americans at this point...
How do YOU think it plays???
From where I'm sitting, that seems to be the most popular platform either party is presenting, for obvious reasons. But it sounds like you think otherwise?
[fixed code catastrophe]
[ 24. January 2016, 21:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
That being said, what do you mean by this
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Neither she nor Bernie seem to understand how their promise of free college plays to most Americans at this point...
How do YOU think it plays???
From where I'm sitting, that seems to be the most popular platform either party is presenting, for obvious reasons. But it sounds like you think otherwise?
It's certainly popular among people who either have huge amounts of student debt or are trying to figure out how they're going to send their kids through school. Which are most of the chattering class who get media air time.
But to a lot of people it just sounds like more class warfare and yet another way to redistribute wealth upwards.
If our education system was more like Germany's, it might fly. But I haven't seen anyone address the complete overhaul of higher education that would have to happen for any kind of plan to give free tuition to be remotely feasible. A lot of people think that part of the reason for the skyrocketing tuitions in the first place is the easy availability of federal loans, which give universities no reason to even attempt to reign in their costs. Throwing more money at schools - particularly the for-profit ones - isn't likely to help.
The campus protests that have been in the news are playing straight into Trump's popularity as being someone who doesn't give a shit about being PC. The Title IX stories that have been in the news are playing into the idea that colleges may have become downright hostile places for boys and men. Those who have completed college are not in the majority in the US, and IME a college degree is frequently seen primarily as a class marker rather than something that has inherent value.
YMMV.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
ahh, the ole middle class welfare line... We get that in Australia all the time. It's very powerful. I hate and despise the argument with every fibre of my being. I rail against it at every chance I get, but not this one. It's a good answer to an apt question.
My issue is that this argument would play well to right-leaning voters who are already prejudiced against welfare and likely to vote republican, but how would it play in other sorts of communities where people are trying to drag themselves out of welfare-dependency?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Erik
Shipmate
# 11406
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Posted
If I understand correctly, the general perception is that independent candidates in USA have little-to-no chance of actually attaining office. Is this correct? What do US shipmate think it would take for an independent candidate to genuinely have a significant chance of getting elected? I can't help but think that, with both main parties having front-runners who are so widely hated, there must be a significant number of people who just want to vote for anyone else.
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One day I will think of something worth saying here.
Posts: 96 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Don't a candidate's policies factor into your thinking, Mere Nick? Is it all about your perception of their characters. Perceptions can be manipulated.
Of course policy matters, Barnabas. I prefer a candidate who most clearly advocates classical liberalism and right now it looks like Gary Johnson. However, the next president will come from one of the two main parties. There's still plenty of time between now and our primary to determine which party's primary I will vote in and for who.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erik:
What do US shipmate think it would take for an independent candidate to genuinely have a significant chance of getting elected?
Media coverage.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Abolishing the FPTP system.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
LeRoc--
"FPTP": something "pay to play"???
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I suspect this time it means “First past the post”--basically the way most states allocate their Electoral College electors.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I see all sorts of obstacles to a third party presidential election winner. Let's say that Trump and Sanders win their respective primaries and Bloomberg gets in to the race, hoping to pull off enough middle of the road establishment voters to win the election. First, he needs the organization to get on the ballots, and to get people out there drumming up support. Even if both establishment Republicans and Democrats don't love their nominees, they still have federal and state level elections to be concerned about, so they might be able to quietly support Bloomberg, but not so much that the party looks in disarray. As mentioned above, the vast majority of states cast their electoral votes on a first-past-the-post winner take all basis, so he might struggle in very red or very blue states, where the voters might be really enthusiastic about the party's nominee, or just too accustomed to voting the brand to switch off for a year. And then, even if he manages to pull in some swing states, if he can't manage an actual majority of the electoral votes, (which, under the 12th amendment, means more than 50%), it would go to the state delegations of the House. That will likely be a Republican majority, so they would have to decide which half of the party to alienate. (I wouldn't trust either party in that situation to just hand it to whoever won the popular vote if that person wasn't their candidate.)
So long story short, it would be really hard, even in an apparently friendly environment, for a third party candidate to win.
[ 25. January 2016, 20:15: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
... the vast majority of states cast their electoral votes on a first-past-the-post winner take all basis, so he might struggle in very red or very blue states...
The first-past-the-post method makes voting for a third party candidate risky in any case. While he might not be able to get a majority in very red or very blue states, he would have a harder time getting votes in more balanced states because not voting for your favored major-party candidate may allow the other major-party candidate to win - the classic problem of splitting the vote.
Using a Single-Transferable-Vote method to choose state electors makes it less risky to vote for a third party candidate, which makes it less likely that either major party would support such a reform.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
And of course, in the event that the Electoral College does not return an absolute majority in favour of one candidate, the election is thrown to the House of Representatives for President and Senate for VP, for which voting is conducted by state instead of by Congressman/Senator.
The last time this happened was in 1824. Political junkies would have an o****m for weeks if this happened.
I know I would.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And in the event that The Donald loses at any point inthe process, he will do what he always does. He will file suit, tying up everything for months.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
ahh, the ole middle class welfare line... We get that in Australia all the time. It's very powerful. I hate and despise the argument with every fibre of my being. I rail against it at every chance I get, but not this one. It's a good answer to an apt question.
My issue is that this argument would play well to right-leaning voters who are already prejudiced against welfare and likely to vote republican, but how would it play in other sorts of communities where people are trying to drag themselves out of welfare-dependency?
The problem with the American political landscape is that one of the people (Clinton) advocating for this particular form of "middle class welfare" previously strongly advocated for welfare reform in spite of being warned that it would plunge millions of children into poverty (she also has a lot to answer for when it comes to her support for mandatory minimums and other criminal justice reforms that filled our prisons - often to the benefit of private corporations - and devastated many communities).
So, the thing is, it comes off as something somewhere between pandering and class warfare.
Not that people who are trying to drag themselves out of welfare dependency are likely to vote for Trump as a result.
Still, it doesn't play well.
cliffdweller -
relevant to my last post.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Yeah, Clinton is one of those "broad church' Democrats, who likes to try and appeal to as many people as possible rather than get the vote out. Other members of her club include Tony Blair and every leader of the ALP from Bob Hawke.
This type swing with the breeze, as long as the breeze is to the right on economics. The only thing these politicians won't do is something that polls badly.
I'm hoping (twinkle twinkle little star) that the election of Jeremy Corbyn is the start of a move away from this type of labor politician in the anglosphere.
So, I wouldn't be voting for Clinton in my primary if I was an American. I hate and despise her right-wing ways. I'd be begging Elizabeth Warren to run, or hundreds more that I'd know about as an American.
Then again, maybe if I was American I'd have an arsenal of 50 weapons and like chewing tobacco. I might also shoot images of Woody Guthrie on sight. One can never tell.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I'd be begging Elizabeth Warren to run
Oh, believe me, we have. On our knees.
Our only hope at this point is that Sanders has got her lined up for the VP slot.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
The problem with the American political landscape is that one of the people (Clinton) advocating for this particular form of "middle class welfare" previously strongly advocated for welfare reform in spite of being warned that it would plunge millions of children into poverty (she also has a lot to answer for when it comes to her support for mandatory minimums and other criminal justice reforms that filled our prisons - often to the benefit of private corporations - and devastated many communities).
So, the thing is, it comes off as something somewhere between pandering and class warfare.
I wouldn't say this is the problem with the American political landscape, but otherwise I could not agree more.
Warren isn't running, and it's way too late for her to change her mind even if she wanted to. I find Sanders' platform closer to my way of thinking than Clinton's, but that's exactly why I don't think he's electable in the general election, given how far I am to the left of the general public. And I rather doubt he'll survive the southern primaries.
I have just looked up the voter registration deadline in California (15 days prior to any given election) because it's occurred to me that while the Democratic side will be all sewn up by the time we vote here in June, there is a possibility that the Republican won't be. If that's the case, I'll switch my registration to Republican and do some strategic voting. In 2000 we voted in March instead of June and Al Gore was already a shoe-in for the Democrats, so I changed my registration to Repubublican and voted for John McCain because I hated George W. Bush so much.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
onya Ruth - I'd do the same. I wonder how much giving Hilary a clear run at first female President is part of Warren's thinking. I have no idea, of course.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Question for Sanders supporters: Is he perpetually grumpy??
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
given how far I am to the left of the general public.
Not to be snarky, but it doesn't seem to me that there is a functional concept of leftist politics in America anymore. It isn't just the conservatives who've moved right.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re strategic voting:
{Not pointing at you, Ruth.}
I've never been comfortable with the idea of that. Somewhere inside, it resonates as cheating. It may not be. Plus it seems complicated, and hardly foolproof.
In past elections, I've heard of voters arranging to trade votes with friends in other states. But what if the friend doesn't do it? Your vote will be wasted.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The problem with California strategic voting is that Clinton is already trying to lower expectations and raise money by saying the fight for the nomination could go till June.
When I lived in a city with Australian ballot for municipal office, the joy of strategic voting is it gives you a chance to think about something other than the dismal choice of candidates.
Finally, although it looks like Trump or Cruz might win in Iowa I don't know what's going to happen this year. There's a lot of unrestricted money out there and a whole bunch of candidates that think they could grab the race.
Buckle your seatbelts...
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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