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Thread: Purgatory: In, out, in, out; EU Referendum thread.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
A lot of Leavers seem to have a heavy dose of nostalgia about some mythical past when Britain was both democratic and in charge of it's own destiny
I get that impression too. A failure to acknowledge that we've been part of Europe since at least the point when we went to get princes from the Netherlands or Germany to be out King.
But, I also recognise that the Remain camp can be just as bad looking back to how bad it was before we joined the EU.
We need to be looking forward. For the benefit of the people who live on these small islands are we going to be better or worse in the EU or out? For the benefit of the other people of Europe (after all if someone is going to play the 'Christian nation' card then we need to look beyond our own self-interest)? The rest of the world?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
A lot of Leavers seem to have a heavy dose of nostalgia about some mythical past when Britain was both democratic and in charge of it's own destiny (or to put it rather less tactfully, a view of Britain as equal parts Downton Abbey and Trumptonshire).
I think this is where Brexit woos a certain category of Christian, too, who want a "Christian Britain" back.
There is also a particular appeal to those who seem to have their Christianity tangled up with nationalism.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We need to be looking forward. For the benefit of the people who live on these small islands are we going to be better or worse in the EU or out? For the benefit of the other people of Europe (after all if someone is going to play the 'Christian nation' card then we need to look beyond our own self-interest)? The rest of the world?
This is the nubb of it for voters yet to make up their minds. Peering into the future do we a prosperous, benevolent Britain, a trusted and active participant of the European Union?
Or do we see ourselves as dumped on by a central power base which is, itself, is merely serving self interest?
As for the Christian Nationalism card, anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of the two catastrophic World/European wars will know that card to be at best a Joker, or at worst completely worthless.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
38 Degrees members voted to support fact checking and stay neutral on the EU referendum. They are working with Full Fact, a charity, to check information in speeches and leaflets.
On the Full Fact site there are a series of links to information cited in speeches, debates and leaflets. The site compares the best data they can find with the alleged facts and gives a true, false or unproven rating to each. The conclusions are in sound bites, but there is usually a discussion about each point and references to the sources. Where sources are in disagreement that is shown.
* 38 Degrees calls itself a campaigning community that asks members what stance they should take on different issues. On this one, the aim is dissemination of facts to counteract the increasingly hysterical claims and counterclaims of Remain and Brexit.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course, if our representatives in Europe don't bother to turn up to anything and participate in the discussions on European policy then we're going to find ourselves subject to decisions made without our input. On the otherhand, if our representatives do what we elect them to do then we'll have a say in the decisions made. It's not really all that difficult a concept.
But, what is not acceptable is for people who have been elected to represent the people of Britain not only taking the money offered and do nothing, but to then claim that Europe acts against British interests.
I'm not giving prizes for anyone wanting to guess who I'm thinking of.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
This is the nubb of it for voters yet to make up their minds. Peering into the future do we a prosperous, benevolent Britain, a trusted and active participant of the European Union?
Or do we see ourselves as dumped on by a central power base which is, itself, is merely serving self interest?
I don't think we are either trusted or liked and I get the impression that some member states would be glad to see the back of a country that seems to be forever raising objections and going for opt-outs.
It won't be possible to reform the EU from outside and they're going to be sniffy about trading.
The alternative, however, is more of the same. I'm trying to find the least worst option amidst a bunch of increasingly hysterical claims and counter claims. We'll lose our jobs and houses, the economy will go bust, terrorists will rampage through the country unchecked, Hitler will rise again, World War Three will break out and Satan will eat our babies.
I've given up trying to listen to politicians, almost everybody seems to be plugging their own agenda in a fairly negative way. I'm seriously thinking about not voting at all. Either that or it may come down to something as trivial as mobile phone roaming charges and the availability of Tayto crisps in Britain. Hell, it's all about self-interest ultimately isn't it?
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Ariel wrote:
quote:
...and Satan will eat our babies.
As long as he granishes them with uncurved bananas, I think it'll meet the regulations.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I don't think we are either trusted or liked and I get the impression that some member states would be glad to see the back of a country that seems to be forever raising objections and going for opt-outs.
This isn't completely accurate. Up until recently the UK had plenty of - relatively natural - allies amongst Eastern European states who were generally more Atlanticist in perspective. Even the principle of opt-outs had a lot of support from the Scandanavians and the Netherlands.
Since when the UK government has managed to act in a way that has managed to alienate those allies - and allied itself to some of the most regressive regimes in both areas.
Let us assume for a moment that Leave wins, what happens afterwards? Who will the populists blame for their lack of success once they no longer have the convenient scapegoat of Brussels?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I don't think we are either trusted or liked and I get the impression that some member states would be glad to see the back of a country that seems to be forever raising objections and going for opt-outs.
This isn't completely accurate. Up until recently the UK had plenty of - relatively natural - allies amongst Eastern European states who were generally more Atlanticist in perspective. Even the principle of opt-outs had a lot of support from the Scandanavians and the Netherlands.
Since when the UK government has managed to act in a way that has managed to alienate those allies - and allied itself to some of the most regressive regimes in both areas.
Let us assume for a moment that Leave wins, what happens afterwards? Who will the populists blame for their lack of success once they no longer have the convenient scapegoat of Brussels?
Moreover, antipathy towards Brussels and the desire for "sovereignty", tougher border controls and a desire to make the life of immigrants harder, is stronger on the Right than on the Left, so it will be no surprise if a "Leave" vote doesn't lead to a Conservative minority government before 2020. Firstly, the existing government won't have its heart in negotiating exit, secondly some Euro-sceptic MPs will jump ship and thirdly the wolves are already baying for Cameron's blood.
I'm sure that's not what the "Leavers" want.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
As far as I can see, the "Leavers" want to expel anyone they consider to be insufficiently "English", plunge the nation into mass unemployment and poverty, and surrender control to multinational business. Cameron's blood will just be the appetiser.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Cameron's blood will just be the appetiser.
So, an upside. Though not if it leaves us with Boris Johnson 'the Poundstretcher Trump' to quote Irvine Walsh.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
Boris isn't completely stupid, and must have realised by now that if he does become PM in the wake of a vote to leave, his entire prime ministership will be about unpicking our relationship with Europe and negotiating new treaties and agreements to replace the current EU ones. For someone who doesn't like detail (or even facts), this is not an attractive prospect. He wouldn't get to do anything much else.
I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to renegotiate some opt-outs on the Brexit shibboleths like immigration, portrayed this (however bogus it might be) as dramatically better than Cameron's deal, and called a second referendum. And then the Brexit ultras would eat him as their main course. Cue total implosion of Tory party.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As far as I can see, the "Leavers" want to expel anyone they consider to be insufficiently "English", plunge the nation into mass unemployment and poverty, and surrender control to multinational business. Cameron's blood will just be the appetiser.
Yep, you've got me bang to rights. All that stuff about sovereignty, independence and the British people being able to decide for themselves what they think is best for Britain without having to worry about whether it's any good for Hungary or Portugal as well was just bluster, what's really important to me is xenophobia and economic Armageddon. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I don't mind people saying I'm wrong about this. I really don't. But at least engage with what I'm actually saying rather than the same old tired strawman that all Brexiters are racist idiots.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Boris isn't completely stupid, ....
Are you sure about that?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
All that stuff about sovereignty, independence and the British people being able to decide for themselves what they think is best for Britain without having to worry about whether it's any good for Hungary or Portugal as well was just bluster, what's really important to me is xenophobia and economic Armageddon.
OK, define "sovereignty". And then explain how in a world of competing interests from multi-national organisations, both commercial and political, it means anything at all. Britain can't act independently of the rest of the world. There needs to be trade agreements, treaties, agreements with other nations over fishing quotas and greenhouse gas emissions (to name just two examples out of many options). I challenge you to enter treaty negotiations with Hungary or Portugal on issues of trade, pollution control or fisheries policy and not have to end up with a deal that isn't also good for Hungary or Portugal. In or out of the EU, if we want to be anything other than an insular little island isolated from the rest of the world, we will need to be in relationship with the rest of the world - and no nation is going to sign up to a deal that isn't good for them.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... All that stuff about sovereignty, independence and the British people being able to decide for themselves what they think is best for Britain without having to worry about whether it's any good for Hungary or Portugal as well was just bluster, what's really important to me is xenophobia and economic Armageddon. ...
Actually, and perhaps I'm unusual in this, but it's the arguments about 'sovereignty, independence and the British people being able to decide for themselves' that are the ones that I regard as a load of kack, just as much as the xenophobia and racism ones.
Perhaps I might feel differently about them if we had even a half decent constitution and any say in what happens within our country, but we don't. If we did, I don't think we'd have ever got here in the first place.
Power is concentrated in Westminster. Unlike the rest of the United Kingdom, we don't even have any devolution. The people who rant most about Brexit, sovereignty, the right of the British people to decide etc etc etc etc naus naus naus, turn out to be the same ones as oppose electoral reform and who see the whole thing as merely the opportunity to retain their once every five years' renewable elected dictatorship as untrammelled as possible.
This isn't about 'sovereignty, independence and the British people being able to decide for themselves'. It's about a particular clique of 325 + 1 individuals, currently with only 37% of the vote, retaining ''sovereignty, independence and them being able to decide for themselves', an b****r the rest of us.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Perhaps I might feel differently about them if we had even a half decent constitution and any say in what happens within our country, but we don't.
I detest this view. I detest the way so many people are saying we have to stay in the EU because it's our only defence against the Evil Tories, Media Moguls or Multinational Corporations.
And it's not because I voted Tory in the last election.
It's because such views are a slap to the face of every one of our ancestors who fought - often literally - for our right to have a say in how our country is run. From Magna Carta to Emmeline Pankhurst, such people don't seem to have thought it was a pointless exercise that wouldn't give them any real say.
It's because such views are so patronisingly insulting to the British people the ones espousing them claim to want to protect. As if they're just marionettes dancing on strings held by Evil Tories, Media Moguls and Multinational Corporations and can't possibly think or make decisions for themselves, the poor dears.
And above all it's because of the sheer defeatism behind those views. I'm no supporter of Corbyn, but at times it feels like I'm more confident that he can win the next election than those who are! If you want a government that will listen to you and do the things you think need to be done then campaign and vote for it. If enough other people do the same then you'll get that government, and there's absolutely nothing any Evil Tory, Media Mogul or Multinational Corporation will be able to do about it.
Of course, if that government is still shackled to EU law then there'll be very little they can actually do about the issues themselves. Just ask Greece. That will be the real situation in which we will have no say in what happens within our country, not the current one where you're just saying that because not enough of your fellow voters voted for the "right" party last year.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's because such views are a slap to the face of every one of our ancestors who fought - often literally - for our right to have a say in how our country is run. From Magna Carta to Emmeline Pankhurst, such people don't seem to have thought it was a pointless exercise that wouldn't give them any real say.
This is like saying that because we haven't eliminated starvation or poverty yet the struggles of the people who worked towards it were pointless.
Just because you haven't won the war yet doesn't mean you haven't gained ground.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I have looked through the last few pages of this thread, and find it surprising how few 'Leave' voices are being raised in what is an on-line magazine of 'Christian Unrest'. Marvin seems to be the only clear 'Brexiter' on here, and I wish that I'd written most of what he's argued! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Does it not worry stay-in people that a question of remaining can unite Cameron, Corbyn, Farron, the Scots Nats, and of course our masters in Brussels (who want us to stay mainly because we are the second-highest net contributor to their 'budget'? It could turn one into a conspiracy theorist...
[ 31. May 2016, 16:29: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Does it not worry stay-in people that a question of remaining can unite Cameron, Corbyn, Farron, the Scots Nats, [..] It could turn one into a conspiracy theorist...
Well, it could. On the other hand, if someone was to propose legalizing slavery, returning to the prior legal position where marital rape didn't exist, or any number of other bad ideas, you would find all those people lining up to tell you what an obviously bad idea it was.
Just because people with different politics agree on something doesn't make it a conspiracy.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Does it not worry stay-in people that a question of remaining can unite Cameron, Corbyn, Farron, the Scots Nats, [..] It could turn one into a conspiracy theorist...
Well, it could. On the other hand, if someone was to propose legalizing slavery, returning to the prior legal position where marital rape didn't exist, or any number of other bad ideas, you would find all those people lining up to tell you what an obviously bad idea it was.
Just because people with different politics agree on something doesn't make it a conspiracy.
And you can reverse it. Brexit apostles cross the ideological spectrum from Nigel Farage to George Galloway.
What I suppose unites them is that they're the kind of people who are usually seen as "non-establishment", whereas the Remainers tend to be more "in with the in crowd", if you know what I mean.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I detest this view. I detest the way so many people are saying we have to stay in the EU because it's our only defence against the Evil Tories, Media Moguls or Multinational Corporations.
And it's not because I voted Tory in the last election.
It's because such views are a slap to the face of every one of our ancestors who fought - often literally - for our right to have a say in how our country is run. From Magna Carta to Emmeline Pankhurst, such people don't seem to have thought it was a pointless exercise that wouldn't give them any real say.
It's because such views are so patronisingly insulting to the British people the ones espousing them claim to want to protect. As if they're just marionettes dancing on strings held by Evil Tories, Media Moguls and Multinational Corporations and can't possibly think or make decisions for themselves, the poor dears.
And above all it's because of the sheer defeatism behind those views. I'm no supporter of Corbyn, but at times it feels like I'm more confident that he can win the next election than those who are! If you want a government that will listen to you and do the things you think need to be done then campaign and vote for it. If enough other people do the same then you'll get that government, and there's absolutely nothing any Evil Tory, Media Mogul or Multinational Corporation will be able to do about it.
Of course, if that government is still shackled to EU law then there'll be very little they can actually do about the issues themselves. Just ask Greece. That will be the real situation in which we will have no say in what happens within our country, not the current one where you're just saying that because not enough of your fellow voters voted for the "right" party last year.
It isn't just evil Tories, media moguls, multinationals or even bankers for that matter. The last Blair/Brown administration only had 35% of the vote but got a comfortable majority of 66.
It's quite possible that in the next election, a Corbyn Labour Party will get a majority on the same sort of figures.
Our system means that it is more or less a fluke who gets to have a say in what happens within our country. Our government can make no claim any more to be either democratic or representative.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
... Does it not worry stay-in people that a question of remaining can unite Cameron, Corbyn, Farron, the Scots Nats, and of course our masters in Brussels (who want us to stay mainly because we are the second-highest net contributor to their 'budget'?
No. quote:
It could turn one into a conspiracy theorist...
Only if one were to imagine there actually is a secret conspiracy. There's neither evidence for such a thing nor any reason to imagine that there might be one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
Does it not worry stay-in people that a question of remaining can unite Cameron, Corbyn, Farron, the Scots Nats, and of course our masters in Brussels
Not as much as Johnson, IDS, Gove and Nigel Farrage worry me, no.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Our system means that it is more or less a fluke who gets to have a say in what happens within our country.
No, it really doesn't.
It's true that the structure of our electoral system means that we elect the plurality winner rather than some kind of consensus majority. The last time that the elected government had a majority of the votes cast was (unless you count the 2010 Conservative/ Lib Dem coalition) the Conservatives under Stanley Baldwin in 1931 (although, of course, Ramsay MacDonald remained as Prime Minister, and one can hardly describe the Great Depression as "politics as normal". Before that, it would be the Conservatives and Liberal Unionists under Lord Salisbury in 1900.
But in almost all cases, the party with the largest number of votes in the nation has become the party of government. (The exceptions in the last century are 1929 (Conservatives got more votes, Labour got more seats), 1951 (Labour got more votes, Conservatives got more seats) and February 1974 (Conservatives got more votes, Labour got more seats). That's a total of about 7% of the last century (and in all cases, the governing party got close to the number of votes that the plurality winner got).
You can argue that picking the plurality winner is the wrong thing to do, and that we should have a different system that emphasises consensus-building, but to say that the winner under our current system is a "fluke" is frankly nonsense.
quote:
Our government can make no claim any more to be either democratic or representative.
I'm waiting for the claim that the EU is better, but it doesn't seem to be coming.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm waiting for the claim that the EU is better, but it doesn't seem to be coming.
The EU acts in the interests of ordinary people to a greater extent than UK governments do.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
Well first from my own point of view, The EU elections are the only ones where my vote has made a difference - I actually helped to elect an MEP. I have never lived in a marginal constituency - you know one of those ones that dictate who gets a majority.
Secondly, the EU parliament much more accurately reflects the plurality of view that there are in Europe and that there are in the UK. A good thing in my view. It was a Tory, I believe. who said our system is in effect an elected dictatorship in between elections.
[ 31. May 2016, 20:58: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The EU acts in the interests of ordinary people to a greater extent than UK governments do.
This is a statement about your personal politics and perception of the EU. It's a perfectly reasonable reason to want to remain in the EU, but it has nothing to do with whether the EU is democratic or not.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The EU acts in the interests of ordinary people to a greater extent than UK governments do.
This is a statement about your personal politics and perception of the EU. It's a perfectly reasonable reason to want to remain in the EU, but it has nothing to do with whether the EU is democratic or not.
The UK government isn't democratic. We have one chamber elected by a method that creates artificial majorities, another of hereditary members, political appointees and bishops plus a hereditary head of state.
If you go beyond the democracy-yes-or-no issue, my point stands.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you go beyond the democracy-yes-or-no issue, my point stands.
But isn't your point judging the EU by what it does? It sounds like you're saying that the EU is good because it does things that Sioni Sais thinks are in the interests of the ordinary people of the UK.
This is very different from saying that the EU does what the people of the UK want it to do. (We have seen on many occasions that people don't vote for what we think would be in their interests.)
Basically, it sounds like you're making the "Evil Tories" argument. You seem to be saying that stupid British people who don't know what's good for them keep electing Tory (or Tory-lite) governments, and we need the EU to protect us from them.
This is a rational reason for someone from the political left to vote "remain" but it's not a democratic one.
(And just because the electoral system is designed to generate majorities rather than encourage consensus doesn't make it undemocratic. The Parliament Act renders the bizarre composition of the House of Lords relatively moot as far as democracy goes: it is always possible for the elected House to assert its primacy.)
[ 31. May 2016, 21:35: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
....Cue total implosion of Tory party.
Now there is something to tempt the tactical voter ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I can't help but wonder whether Sioni (among others) would be a Leave voter if the political situation was reversed and we had a socialist UK thinking about leaving an unapologetically capitalist (or worse) EU.
And if so, that seems to me to be a very short-sighted view. In a little under 4 years the UK may well elect Corbyn's Labour. Meanwhile, many countries in the EU seem to be moving rightwards. Shackling ourselves to them because they happen to be more left wing than us at the moment is just ignoring the very real risk that those positions can easily and quickly become reversed.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Our government can make no claim any more to be either democratic or representative.
I'm waiting for the claim that the EU is better, but it doesn't seem to be coming.
The question appears to assume that Westminster and the EU are comparable. Which, of course, they aren't, and there's no reason to expect either to change significantly in the foreseeable future.
Westminster is the Parliament of the UK from which the government of the UK is formed. We vote for MPs to represent us in Westminster, either within Government or Opposition.
The EU is not a government. We elect MEPs to represent us in a regional talking-shop, it's a very different body from the Westminster Parliament.
If asked whether I wanted government from Westminster or the EU I'd take Westminster every time (though, if I was given the option of Holyrood as well ...). Even though I'm pro-EU, there is no way the EU could function as a government. Even if the structures were reformed to create a government, how would that work without first creating pan-European political parties?
Since they are so very different in function, it therefore follows that the form of democracy in Westminster and the EU would also be different. And, it makes a comparison along the lines of "more democratic" largely meaningless.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can't help but wonder whether Sioni (among others) would be a Leave voter if the political situation was reversed and we had a socialist UK thinking about leaving an unapologetically capitalist (or worse) EU.
That sums up one of my reasons for voting remain. But we don't have a Labour government, let alone a socialist one.
quote:
And if so, that seems to me to be a very short-sighted view. In a little under 4 years the UK may well elect Corbyn's Labour. Meanwhile, many countries in the EU seem to be moving rightwards. Shackling ourselves to them because they happen to be more left wing than us at the moment is just ignoring the very real risk that those positions can easily and quickly become reversed.
And that leads to the biggest falsehoods that the "Leavers" are peddling. While the EU does place obligations on member states, they are still independent. Has the EU done anything to prevent the cuts to benefits? Our tax regime which benefits the rich at the expense of middle-income groups? Has it interfered with the privatisation of the NHS? The influence of the United States in our defence policy?
Really, the rhetoric of the Leave camp is a catalogue of emotive falsehoods.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A dead heat?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I can't help but wonder whether Sioni (among others) would be a Leave voter if the political situation was reversed and we had a socialist UK thinking about leaving an unapologetically capitalist (or worse) EU.
And if so, that seems to me to be a very short-sighted view. In a little under 4 years the UK may well elect Corbyn's Labour. Meanwhile, many countries in the EU seem to be moving rightwards. Shackling ourselves to them because they happen to be more left wing than us at the moment is just ignoring the very real risk that those positions can easily and quickly become reversed.
If I thought that the plp would be behind Corbyn in supporting a socialist agenda radical enough to trouble the EU then I might consider voting leave. As it is I don't think even given a free hand Corbyn would be butting up against the EU all that much. Consequently part of the value of the EU is protection against the worst excesses of the right. And no, I don't care whether it conforms to a perfectly spherical model of democracy, I care about what helps those with the least the most.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And that leads to the biggest falsehoods that the "Leavers" are peddling. While the EU does place obligations on member states, they are still independent. Has the EU done anything to prevent the cuts to benefits? Our tax regime which benefits the rich at the expense of middle-income groups? Has it interfered with the privatisation of the NHS? The influence of the United States in our defence policy?
Hang about a second, you just said that one of your reasons for wanting to stay in the EU is that they can look after the interests of ordinary people better than the UK government. And yet now you're saying they can't actually do anything about it?
Either EU membership is better for ordinary people, which means the EU can interfere with UK government policy, or the EU is powerless to affect UK government policy in which case it's not any better for ordinary people at all. You can't have it both ways depending on which best supports your argument at the time.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm pretty sure that the behind the scenes support for Brexit has the straightforward agenda of making the UK a safe home for unbridled international capitalism, rather than some kind of restored "national homeland" for the British (sorry, the English). The latter is just a nostalgic pipedream in the modern world.
In the end, that is why I voted Remain. Anyway, at 73, if the vote goes Brexit, I'll have a relatively limited time to watch the unfolding. But if that happens, I do fear for my grandchildren. Who have had no say in this.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And no, I don't care whether it conforms to a perfectly spherical model of democracy, I care about what helps those with the least the most.
That's the sort of thinking that can (and has) lead to revolution/coup and subsequent removal of the right to vote because ordinary people don't know what's best for them and only The Party (and/or The Glorious Leader) can be trusted to do what's right.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And no, I don't care whether it conforms to a perfectly spherical model of democracy, I care about what helps those with the least the most.
That's the sort of thinking that can (and has) lead to revolution/coup and subsequent removal of the right to vote because ordinary people don't know what's best for them and only The Party (and/or The Glorious Leader) can be trusted to do what's right.
That is an argument as much of the right as of the left, add in efficiency of the method and definitely right wing.
[eta] Perfect democracy is a form of anarchy, it is rarely stable and often leads to dictatorship as well. I am and will remain a balance of power person.
Jengie
[ 01. June 2016, 10:15: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Did anyone hear the trades union people on the Today programme this morning? The guy from the RMT talked a lot of nonsense AFAIC and I did suitable amounts of yelling at my radio. The EU is going to take away people’s rights to unionise and strike apparently.
This in the same programme that reported on how a French trades union is currently in the process of attempting to shut down the country (the oil refineries are now back open, but as of tomorrow, we lucky, lucky Parisians can look forward to act II – crippling transport strikes). Funnily enough, the EU is doing exactly nothing to stop them.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear the trades union people on the Today programme this morning? The guy from the RMT talked a lot of nonsense AFAIC and I did suitable amounts of yelling at my radio. The EU is going to take away people’s rights to unionise and strike apparently.
Marvin will surprised to see this but Today plus RMT is a toxic mixture. The poorest mainstream news program plus a union with a gift for self-immolation isn't pretty.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Successive Tory governments have taken away a lot of the rights of workers to unionise and strike, without any help (or hindrance) from the EU. That seems to be a definite example of "argument to ignore".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
That is an argument as much of the right as of the left, add in efficiency of the method and definitely right wing.
Oh, absolutely. I'd no more want to live in a right-wing dictatorship than a left-wing one.
It just strikes me that there are some on this thread who would rather live in a left-wing dictatorship than a right-wing democracy. And I find that baffling.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I've not noticed anyone suggesting a preference for living in any sort of dictatorship, left or right. Perhaps you can help me out by pointing out an example of who you are thinking of.
A preference for a democratically elected left wing government against a right wing one is, of course, something several of us would prefer. Though I'm not sure how that relates to the EU which has no power to direct how people vote I'm not sure.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I've not noticed anyone suggesting a preference for living in any sort of dictatorship, left or right. Perhaps you can help me out by pointing out an example of who you are thinking of.
The post I quoted four hours ago, for one. As soon as the ends start justifying the means like that, you're heading in a dangerous direction.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Successive Tory governments have taken away a lot of the rights of workers to unionise and strike, without any help (or hindrance) from the EU.
I reckon it would have been a lot worse had we not has the EU constraining.
What are you basing that thought on, though? I mean, if this government was so desperate to screw us all over but only being restrained by the EU then don't you find it odd that both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are in the "Remain" camp? If Big Businesses are so keen to throw off the shackles of EU regulation and really stick it to their workers, why are so many of their CEOs in the "Remain" camp?
I think all this bluster about Evil Tories, Media Moguls and Multinational Corporations is just a scare tactic to frighten people into doing what its proponents want them to do. It's a con. A lie. It's "don't leave the village because there are creatures in the woods".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
My point is that democracy is not an end in itself, good government is. Democracy is an insurance against tyranny, but voting alone cannot prevent tyranny, as Weimar Germany discovered. You need a functioning system of laws and rights to protect minorities and those who are powerless. The current government seems set on undermining those rights, and membership of the EU serves to ensure they will be called to account. It's a sad fact (as Bonhoffer pointed out) that most people will not exercise their vote in the defence of the rights of others if their own do not currently appear to be threatened.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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