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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
your posts, given this and your shot at No Prophet a few days ago are increasingly reading My Country, Right or Left.

I don't see anything in the last 7 or 8 pages of this thread that justifies this characterization.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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[Edit to note the cross-posting -- it took me a while to write this. Got distracted by the Dodgers winning. 50 games over .500!]

quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
RuthW, while you bill yourself as "liberal 'peace first' hankie squeezer", your posts, given this and your shot at No Prophet a few days ago are increasingly reading My Country, Right or Left. America is a complex, aspirational thing, and I can understand your frustration - but understand ours. We have to live with a hyper-power which is increasingly unworthy of our trust.

Kenwritez called me a "liberal 'peace first' hankie squeezer" a long time ago, and he didn't mean it as a compliment. I promptly adopted it as my tagline. He's been gone quite a while now, but he's still one of my all-time favorite shipmates, and a better tagline hasn't presented itself. I have no idea why a hankie squeezer can't or shouldn't defend the US against some of the many potshots that are taken at it.

My friends and family would laugh their asses off to hear me described as espousing a "my country, right or wrong" point of view. But I find myself defending the US with some frequency on the Ship precisely because there is a fair amount of knee-jerk anti-Americanism here. There always has been. I doubt very much that you understand my feelings about this; you haven't demonstrated that you do.

I'm not frustrated. I'm irritated. This is Purgatory. People need to back up their claims. Unsubstantiated claims that the US is involved in every coup that takes place in the western hemisphere and that Trump represents the US but Obama doesn't are bullshit -- they can't be substantiated. I didn't take a shot at no prophet. He was factually wrong. He just assumed that the US is involved in just about every coup that takes place in the western hemisphere. Why should I let that go past when it isn't true? And I haven't taken a shot at Kwesi either. He made a blanket statement about the entire country, which is by definition pretty much bullshit just by virtue of being a blanket statement.

Anti-Americanism is not only incredibly sloppy thinking, it's rude, and it's mean. Think about what Kwesi said: "Trump is president because he represents the true face and condition of the USA." He said this to me, an individual, and to every other individual American posting on these boards. I cried on November 8, and I had never cried about an election in my life. I have cried more than once since then. My original plan for this past Sunday evening was to listen to a silly sci fi podcast and make tomato sauce. Instead, I was downtown at an anti-hate vigil. But that doesn't matter. The hours and hours I put in last year volunteering on a campaign to get a lefty community organizer elected to city council -- someone who actually gives a shit about the poor -- that doesn't matter. Kwesi still gets to come in here and tell me that Trump represents the true face and condition of my country. And you in turn criticize me when I acknowledged that Trump does represent some aspects of the country and then said that the claim Kwesi made needed to be backed up. He said something extreme and insulting, and your problem is with me? [Roll Eyes]

[ 16. August 2017, 05:49: Message edited by: RuthW ]

Posts: 24429 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As many have observed, it's incredible that Trump takes 2 days to "get the facts" before condemning neo-nazis, and about 2 hours to condemn the Merck CEO who quit. Who is African-American.

Stephen Colbert suggested that perhaps T had to order his spine through Amazon Prime. (Has 2-day delivery.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18177 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Oh, I didn't get that joke when I read it online. Thank you GK!
Posts: 7578 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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[Smile]

BTW, Scaramucci was on Stephen Colbert's "Late Show" on Monday. Not quite as fiery as I expected, but Stephen did keep pushing him for answers on certain things, and did get some. Video and maybe transcript should be online. The network is CBS.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18177 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As many have observed, it's incredible that Trump takes 2 days to "get the facts" before condemning neo-nazis, and about 2 hours to condemn the Merck CEO who quit. Who is African-American.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Stephen Colbert suggested that perhaps T had to order his spine through Amazon Prime. (Has 2-day delivery.)

So it takes a spine to condemn neo-nazis and no spine to condemn a Merck CEO. (Or for that matter the AG, the FBI director, the disabled, women, black lives matter, Mexicans...)

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Clearly that was a one-use-only spine, since he then went and took it all back and reverted to the "both sides" rhetoric. From his appointment of Bannon through to now, there is no way not to see Trump as a white supremacist president.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63203 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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Kwesi, Pangolin Guerre

This website has been torn in the past by pond wars. Hosts and Admin take a dim view of them. Don't start.

Pangolin Guerre

In addition, you got RuthW completely, ridiculously, wrong.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Clearly that was a one-use-only spine, since he then went and took it all back and reverted to the "both sides" rhetoric. From his appointment of Bannon through to now, there is no way not to see Trump as a white supremacist president.

What do you think about these comments by Trump?

“You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name,” Trump said during one spat with a reporter.

“George Washington as a slave owner,” he continued. “So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson?”

“Are we going to take down his statue because he was a major slave owner. Are we going to take down his statue?”

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12740 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Clearly that was a one-use-only spine, since he then went and took it all back and reverted to the "both sides" rhetoric. From his appointment of Bannon through to now, there is no way not to see Trump as a white supremacist president.

What do you think about these comments by Trump?

“You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name,” Trump said during one spat with a reporter.

“George Washington as a slave owner,” he continued. “So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson?”

“Are we going to take down his statue because he was a major slave owner. Are we going to take down his statue?”

They could have been written by Breitbart himself. I've heard this crap (well, read it) on Facebook and other places, spouted by neoNazis. They usually don't stop there, they usually suggest that the lefties will then start burning books and so on.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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The problem with dragging Washington into this is the issue isn't just the people represented in the statues being removed, it's the intent and purpose of the statues themselves.

In the cases I'm specifically aware of, the statues weren't erected until the first couple of decades of the 20th century. There's pretty decent evidence that they were erected as representatives of white values that the people who funded these statues felt were under threat. They were supposed to be reminders of a "better" time when whites were in charge. This is also the period when the KKK rose to prominence.

And so whatever the issues are with early founding fathers such as Washington and Jefferson, they were never seen or presented as emblematic of slavery and racial superiority. That's not what monuments commemorating them were ever meant for.

Which is probably all way too subtle for the current President of the United States to grasp. Even if he could understand it, he wouldn't want to.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Even when he's right, he's wrong: he's right for the wrong reason.

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Love wins

Posts: 17009 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I wonder how old the great memorials in DC are. Would they not have been erected at the same time? Possibly for similar reasons?

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arse

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I wonder how old the great memorials in DC are. Would they not have been erected at the same time? Possibly for similar reasons?

Why would anyone in DC be looking to enshrine Confederate values?

And to save you wondering, Wikipedia readily tells me that the Washington Monument was started in 1848. The Jefferson Memorial was 1939.

And I'm frankly not even going to look up the Lincoln Memorial because that's just too absurd.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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A tweet today -

"Dear US History teachers:
Your job is crucial. Please make sure your students know the difference b/w George Washington and Robert E. Lee"

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12740 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Why would anyone in DC be looking to enshrine Confederate values?

And to save you wondering, Wikipedia readily tells me that the Washington Monument was started in 1848. The Jefferson Memorial was 1939.

Mmm. I don't know the answer, I was just thinking aloud. I apologise for not knowing the detail of how DC got these memorials.

Given that Jefferson seems like an unrepentant racist and slave-owner - at least according to some accounts - I was wondering if these could have been erected as monuments to Dunning-style history in the late 19th century and early 20th century white racist domination of the capitol.

Maybe not, that's why I asked.

In fairness, this appears to be largely how many of the statues in and around parliament square in London were determined.

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arse

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mdijon
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# 8520

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The whole thing is a red herring. If it was simply a group of people arguing about Lee's statue, I would have a strong opinion of my own, but it wouldn't end up as the news story for days on end.

It is because a group of neo-nazis got together to protest and became violent that it became a story. If it was a bunch of local citizens worried about historical revisionism that would be no big deal.

Turning this from an argument about racism and fascism to an argument about a historical figure is just another way to present it as a disagreement to be balanced about with two sides.

There's nothing to be balanced about here, and it seems hard to conclude anything except we have a racist president.

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ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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It's not a matter of taking down statues of anyone who had racist beliefs, or any other faults, it's a matter of taking down a statue of a man who led a rebellion against the United States.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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From AP on the latest Trump statement;

quote:
Chief of staff John Kelly crossed his arms and stared down at his shoes, barely glancing at the president. Press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders looked around the room trying to make eye contact with other senior aides. One young staffer stood with her mouth agape.
Well they need to do more than look a bit askance, they need to resign and isolate this dangerous, dishonest, vain and malicious disgrace of a president unless they want to go down in history as the ones who helped him out. Because containment and influence on the inside is clearly not working.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
A tweet today -

"Dear US History teachers:
Your job is crucial. Please make sure your students know the difference b/w George Washington and Robert E. Lee"

The problem is that, in certain ways, especially in their attitudes towards slavery, there isn't a huge difference.

Trump inadvertently stumbled on kind of a woke point (if white people can use that word). The fact that it is silly in his mind that we might ask serious questions about how we feel about our slave owning founders shows how the thread of unquestioned white supremacy is really central in our society.

Jefferson did a whole lot to enshrine ideals of personal liberty into western, and eventually world-wide, culture. He also owned slaves, had sexual relations with his slaves (which seems impossible to be completely innocent), and championed policies towards westward expansion that doomed the Indians who were already living there, and expanded slavery deep into North America. If we settle with "well, he's better because he never rebelled against the United States," we somehow excuse him for attitudes that were central to the founding of the CSA.

I recently visited Philadelphia's new Museum of the American Revolution. They do a good job throughout of highlighting the tension between the words "all men are created equal" and the society that fought for independence. At the time, it was unthinkable that the women, slaves, and Indians who were in the middle of the war might be included in those words. Outside of Liberty Hall, at the cite of the original President's residence, they also have an exhibition about slaves serving the President. It's that kind of tension that we need to be exposing.

Yes, let's by all means take down statues that were built with the expressed purpose of letting black people know that they were still no better than slaves in the eyes of their white neighbors. But that alone won't erase white supremacy, and if we pat ourselves on the back too hard for doing that, we risk burying the thread of white supremacy even deeper.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

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RuthW
quote:
Anti-Americanism is not only incredibly sloppy thinking, it's rude, and it's mean. Think about what Kwesi said: "Trump is president because he represents the true face and condition of the USA." He said this to me, an individual, and to every other individual American posting on these boards.Anti-Americanism is not only incredibly sloppy thinking, it's rude, and it's mean. Think about what Kwesi said: "Trump is president because he represents the true face and condition of the USA." He said this to me, an individual, and to every other individual American posting on these boards.
Ruth, I’m surprised that you should construe my remarks as personally directed at yourself and other American posters of a liberal persuasion, rather I see you a part of a not inconsiderable righteous remnant, but a minority, nevertheless. (Incidentally, how can you be certain you speak for all ‘other Americans posting on these boards”?) I’m surprised, too, that you should resort to describing myself and other critics as “anti-American”: a phrase more associated with the Joe McCarthy and the American right. Believe it or not, I’m not a knee-jerk anti-American, and have relatives who have happily and successfully emigrated from Africa seeking a better life in the USA. Perhaps I might be allowed put a little flesh on my original post.


The reason for my pessimism about the condition of the USA is that despite the Warren Court of the 1950s, LBJ’s reforms of the 1960s, and the more recent presidency of Obama, little progress has been made in addressing the underlying racism of American society, of which Trump is an example and beneficiary. It seems remarkable that twenty years after the unpunished beating up of Rodney King by the police in 1991, the then latest manifestation of a phenomenon in evidence since before the founding of the republic, it became necessary to create the lobby group “Black Lives Matter” in response to police impunity regarding the killing and maiming of blacks. That black men are disproportionately incarcerated and are awarded the severest sentences is surely not evidence that African-Americans are genetically more prone to crime than their white counterparts, rather than of the use of the judicial process to put black men in their place. Trump has a point when he asks why statues to Jefferson and Washington should not suffer the same indignity as that of Lee. The enlightened founders of the constitution may have believed in universal human rights and talked of liberty and freedom, but they denied it to black people, who they regarded as less human than they were (racism), and to women (sexism). It is notable that the only coherent thread in the candidacy and presidency of Trump has been his congenital phobia concerning Obama, starting with his attempt to de-legitimise his right to be president (birthing) and continuing with his desire to undo everything he achieved. It is remarkable that 34 per cent continue to support his outrageous presidency, which much include a significantly higher proportion of white voters. Furthermore and importantly, the sentiment that backed him is reflected in a Tea-Partied Republican Party that controls both houses of congress and dominates a slew of state houses and gubernatorial mansions across the nation. Setting aside the capricious character of Trump, what would be different were he to be replaced by Pence or Ryan? Trump, to my mind, articulates a political mind-set that is well-entrenched and dominates the contemporary political firmament. He is not a cuckoo inhabiting a liberal nest. That is why I argue Trump “represents the true face and condition of the USA”. Would that it were not so.

We might continue the discussion with respect to gun control and female emancipation and so on, but those are issues better dealt with by others.

Posts: 1569 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I apologise for not knowing the detail of how DC got these memorials.

[Confused] Seriously, you don't know how the national capital isn't the home of memorials to people who led a rebellion against the government located in the national capital?

Because that's the context we're talking about here. We're talking about statues representing the Confederacy. The States that broke away because they didn't want Washington DC changing their ways.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[Confused] Seriously, you don't know how the national capital isn't the home of memorials to people who led a rebellion against the government located in the national capital?

The difference between the statues is that one lot is from the side won and the other from the side that lost?

The racism implicit in the object itself and the person deplicted has nothing to do with it?

quote:
Because that's the context we're talking about here. We're talking about statues representing the Confederacy. The States that broke away because they didn't want Washington DC changing their ways.
OK, it isn't for me to say what the context is, but it strikes me that this is more than just about who was on which side of the war.

[ 16. August 2017, 14:56: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It's about what those sides represented. It's about why the iconography of the Confederacy was revived.

I've already SAID that. That was basically my starting point. And I continue to find your musing about Washington DC mystifying as a result.

[ 16. August 2017, 15:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I mean, there is a statue of Washington in Trafalgar Square. How do you feel about Londoners taking it down because it represented a figure who led a rebellion against the government located in our national capital?

In and of itself that seems like a strange criteria for determining whether a statue should be taken down or preserved.

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arse

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I mean, there is a statue of Washington in Trafalgar Square. How do you feel about Londoners taking it down because it represented a figure who led a rebellion against the government located in our national capital?

In and of itself that seems like a strange criteria for determining whether a statue should be taken down or preserved.

As an Australian I don't give a flying fuck whether there's a statue of Washington in Trafalgar Square. But I'm willing to place a bet it wasn't erected until relations between the US and the UK had changed considerably.

And I never said that was the criteria for taking a statue down. Washington DC never HAD statues of these people.

I have to ask... just how much knowledge about the American Civil War do you actually have?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I have to ask... just how much knowledge about the American Civil War do you actually have?

Not much, why?

Are you saying that some statues, despite being of morally compromised individuals, are worth keeping because other people are worse?

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Anyway, there are confederate statues in DC. I don't understand what you are getting worked up about.

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arse

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Ohher
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# 18607

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I'm not RuthW and do not speak for her; she's well-able to do that for herself. But here are some points I wish to respond to:

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Ruth, I’m surprised that you should construe my remarks as personally directed at yourself and other American posters of a liberal persuasion, rather I see you a part of a not inconsiderable righteous remnant, but a minority, nevertheless.

Fact: a minority of voters put Trump into office. His opponent won the popular vote -- the majority. Do bear in mind that sexism, alongside of racism, remains a significant problem in this society, and his opponent was a woman. She was a white woman, I grant you.

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
The reason for my pessimism about the condition of the USA is that despite the Warren Court of the 1950s, LBJ’s reforms of the 1960s, and the more recent presidency of Obama, little progress has been made in addressing the underlying racism of American society, of which Trump is an example and beneficiary. It seems remarkable that twenty years after the unpunished beating up of Rodney King by the police in 1991, the then latest manifestation of a phenomenon in evidence since before the founding of the republic, it became necessary to create the lobby group “Black Lives Matter” in response to police impunity regarding the killing and maiming of blacks. That black men are disproportionately incarcerated and are awarded the severest sentences is surely not evidence that African-Americans are genetically more prone to crime than their white counterparts, rather than of the use of the judicial process to put black men in their place.

While I share your dismay and to some extent your pessimism, I would just point out that a little progress has been made. Not enough. It's painfully slow and appallingly small. It is easy to find and point out the gaping holes in our social "justice" framework, and it is difficult and time-consuming to locate and show the inched-forward examples of real progress. We lose sight of these, though, and we lose our hope and motivation to keep working toward actual justice.

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Trump has a point when he asks why statues to Jefferson and Washington should not suffer the same indignity as that of Lee.

No. No, he doesn't. George Washington has not been memorialized as a slaveholder though he was that. He is memorialized as the leader of a successful rebellion against the British government, leading to independence for what was then a colony.

As to the flaws in the original Constitution: in what European nation, contemporary with the founding of this one, was slavery illegal? In what country were women enfranchised and wielding any degree of political authority?

People use and build on such models as they see around them -- for good or evil. If we're going to fault the Founders for "normal" failures of imagination, we might all as well just stay in bed and pull the covers over our heads.

Lee, by contrast, was the leader of a bloody, costly rebellion to ensure the continuation of slavery. He was memorialized as a political sop to states where politics ran on those aggrieved by being "robbed" of their "right" to slaves and white "superiority."

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Trump, to my mind, articulates a political mind-set that is well-entrenched and dominates the contemporary political firmament. He is not a cuckoo inhabiting a liberal nest. That is why I argue Trump “represents the true face and condition of the USA”. Would that it were not so.

I agree that the mind-set is well-entrenched, but it is not a majoritarian view. It seems to dominate our politics because it's turning violent, and violence gets news coverage. What you're seeing is the outrage of a species which feels endangered, and in fact is.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Anyuta
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as a Virginian, this is not a new issue to me (dealing with the fact that many of our heroes had dark sides). I think there IS a legitimate debate with two valid sides to the DISCUSSION of statues, what they stand for, and how to deal with them.

However, the "Unite the Right" folks were not there for discussion. they came armed. they came with racist symbols and racist chants. they were out for a fight. And they attacked PEACEFUL counter protestors. If there was anyone "wielding a club" on the other side, it was certainly not the norm, nor was it the intent of those organizing the counter protest (to the extent it was organized at all). These were people seeing something horrible and stepping out to counter it.

There is no discussion here. there is no "well, on the one hand.. but on the other hand..." here you have open, targeted, unrepentant hatred, and on the other side those who see that and say "no, not in my neighborhood. not in my country. not on my watch".

If I did know of any individual attacking (not defending themselves) the nazi protestors, I can certainly understand it, but I won't condone it. but I have yet to see such and I have no idea where 45 is getting that information (well I do have a pretty good idea, but you know what I mean).

Shameful.

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Gramps49
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Meanwhile, in the dead of night, Baltimore took down four Confederate statues. The city council passed the resolution to remove them on Monday. The mayor signed the resolution on Tuesday. They were gone that night.

I think the first Confederate statues were first put up in the 1880's shortly after the Reconstruction Era ended and Blacks started to be disenfranchised. The zenith of the placement of Confederate statues was around 1914 when many Southern states were passing Jim Crow Laws. There was the beginning of a slight bump in mid-1950's when the civil rights movement began. The last one that was placed was in 1980, I think.

They need to come down.

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Brenda Clough
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As the Post editorial board points out (could find you a link if there is interest) Trump deliberately blurred the moral line between the removal of statues that were explicitly erected as monuments to white supremacy, and ones that weren’t.

There is also the point that if you take up arms against the nation you are, you know, a traitor. You don't get a statue.

If Li'l Donny were smart (or if his communications team were defter) he would claim that he has helped to air out all these issues and set the country onto a healthier direction. Once all these cheap nasty statues (many erected in the early 20th century specifically as a white supremacy gesture) are gone we will be a better nation. Already he has united the nation in its opinion. A mighty feat!

[ 16. August 2017, 15:49: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Bishops Finger
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The mighty feet were pretty well all that was left of Ozymandias, IIRC...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
If there was anyone "wielding a club" on the other side, it was certainly not the norm, nor was it the intent of those organizing the counter protest (to the extent it was organized at all). These were people seeing something horrible and stepping out to counter it.

There is very clear video. Before the shitbag in the Charger was able to shift into reverse, the rear window of the car was smashed with a baseball bat. They came for exactly what they got, and were hoping for such.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
There is very clear video. Before the shitbag in the Charger was able to shift into reverse, the rear window of the car was smashed with a baseball bat. They came for exactly what they got, and were hoping for such.

Wait.. what?

The guy runs into a load of people at high speed, someone breaks a window and he reverses away.

How is that showing that "they came for exactly what they got, and were hoping for such"?

Who is the "they" in this sentence?

And how is breaking a window after someone in a car murdered a pedestrian remotely the same as Nazis coming to a march with machine guns?

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arse

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Bishops Finger
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romanlion has spoken, but is best ignored.

[Roll Eyes]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mousethief

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# 953

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Don't track the shit on the mosaics.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Trump has a point when he asks why statues to Jefferson and Washington should not suffer the same indignity as that of Lee.

In part, because the purpose of the Confederate statues was to obfuscate. Their purpose is to glorify a direct attempt to keep black people subjugated and they represent the continued oppression of black people.
That was not the purpose of Jefferson and Washington and their slave holding is, to some extent, openly discussed. There are misconception, but little direct attempt to lie.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
However, the "Unite the Right" folks were not there for discussion. they came armed. they came with racist symbols and racist chants. they were out for a fight. And they attacked PEACEFUL counter protestors. If there was anyone "wielding a club" on the other side, it was certainly not the norm, nor was it the intent of those organizing the counter protest (to the extent it was organized at all). These were people seeing something horrible and stepping out to counter it.

A New York Times reporter said on Twitter:
quote:
The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding "antifa" beating white nationalists being led out of the park
On Democracy Now Cornel West commended the antifascists and anarchists who he said were there to fight back and who saved the clergy's lives.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Apologies for the double post, but I owe Kwesi a response.

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Ruth, I’m surprised that you should construe my remarks as personally directed at yourself and other American posters of a liberal persuasion,

I didn't take them as aimed at me. My first response was simply to ask you to support your claim. And you didn't aim at me -- you talked about the whole country. Which includes me.

quote:
rather I see you a part of a not inconsiderable righteous remnant, but a minority, nevertheless.
True-blue liberals may be a minority in the US, but anti-Trumpers are a majority.

quote:
(Incidentally, how can you be certain you speak for all ‘other Americans posting on these boards”?)
Not what I said. I said you were speaking to all of us -- and you were.

quote:
I’m surprised, too, that you should resort to describing myself and other critics as “anti-American”: a phrase more associated with the Joe McCarthy and the American right. Believe it or not, I’m not a knee-jerk anti-American, and have relatives who have happily and successfully emigrated from Africa seeking a better life in the USA.
The use of the term "anti-American activities" in the 1950s had a specific connotation that doesn't, or at least shouldn't, come into play in this international context.

quote:
Perhaps I might be allowed put a little flesh on my original post.
Thanks! This is all I asked for in the first place.

quote:
The reason for my pessimism about the condition of the USA is ... [Lots of stuff snipped out here just to keep the post length down and because I don't see anything to dispute]
Trump, to my mind, articulates a political mind-set that is well-entrenched and dominates the contemporary political firmament. He is not a cuckoo inhabiting a liberal nest. That is why I argue Trump “represents the true face and condition of the USA”. Would that it were not so.

I don't dispute any of the factual statements you make. I do dispute the conclusion you have drawn that Trump is the true face of the country. That there are a lot of fucked-up things here is obvious. That institutional racism is still, well, institutional is patently obvious. But assigning one "true face" to over 300 million people is simplistic and reductionary.

There's a lot of depressing shit going on here, and pessimism is not unwarranted. But I'm not pessimistic, partly because I have to get out of bed every morning, and partly because I think the rise of Trump and Trumpism is the one step back we take before we take two steps forward. As Obama and many others say, progress isn't linear.

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Zappa
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Meanwhile, it seems Thwimp is sometimes defeated

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Brenda Clough
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This is from today's Guardian (could find you a link but it's on the Opinion page). This is the kind of statue we have! So there is hope. We must not give in. The arc is long, but it bends towards justice. We shall overcome.
'When James Meredith enrolled as the first black student at the segregated University of Mississippi in 1962, there were riots from a white mob, quelled only by federal troops. After a year of studies, racial harassment and protection by US marshals, Meredith graduated in a peaceful commencement ceremony.
Four decades later, Meredith returned to see his son graduate with the top honors from the business school at Ole Miss. He said he was far more proud of his son than he was of his own time there.
For his part in changing its culture and its history, the university made an important statement about Meredith, the man it had so roundly abused: it installed a statue of him striding towards its entrance.'

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Kwesi
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RuthW
quote:
I do dispute the conclusion you have drawn that Trump is the true face of the country. That there are a lot of fucked-up things here is obvious. That institutional racism is still, well, institutional is patently obvious. But assigning one "true face" to over 300 million people is simplistic and reductionary.

Dear Ruth, thanks for your reply. I'm disinclined to disagree with your considered comments. You are clearly correct that it is simplistic to reduce the face of US politics to a single image, particularly when those 300 million are sharply divided down the middle and the popular vote split in another direction. Part of me wants to see the support for Trump as the last angry hurrah for negativity and reaction. I was, however, anxious that the Trump phenomenon should not be reduced to the eccentricities of a poor man's fascist buffoon, but as the culmination of a process that spawned the descent of the Republicans generally into the dangerously irresponsible rabble they have become. I guess it dates from Nixon's Southern Strategy allied to white ethnic dissatisfaction with civil rights developments in the north: a development which LBJ foresaw would be a consequence of his domestic programme. My worry, which I am seeking to flag, is that the race issue is so deep in America's social DNA that as yet even the symptoms have only been superficially tackled.
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mousethief

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# 953

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Looks like the CEO advisory councils have been dissolved (LA Times). Before any more CEOs could jump ship, perhaps.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I asked this somewhere but can't find where: what about his religious advisors?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I asked this somewhere but can't find where: what about his religious advisors?

Here is a handy blog post listing the names on the religious advisory council, and addressing that very question.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Eutychus
From the edge
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Um, thanks. I think. What an indictment that the CEOs have bailed before any pastors have.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Bishops Finger
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Interesting. Am I right in thinking that none of Supreme Leader's religious advisors are from the Roman Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, or Orthodox churches (amongst many others, I don't doubt)?

[Ultra confused]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mousethief

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# 953

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Dunno the answer to taht, Bishops Finger, but I did find this: Trump's faith advisers condemn white supremacists (CNN).

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, thanks. I think. What an indictment that the CEOs have bailed before any pastors have.

This quote from the article linked to above says it all: If they bailed, "they might have to get jobs instead of just taking money from the pockets of their faithful and gullible followers."

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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