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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Difficult relatives
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Sorry to be cynical, it doesn't look too Christian, but this behaviour happens.
It also sounds as if it is grounded in the same roots as my acquaintenance's troubles. A desperation not to be left, but leading to behaviour which would actually drive the victim away. While making sure the victim can't leave. I don't understand it. Why not make the home really attractive, and the relationship really friendly? Why not allow the victim a personal space that is their own?
I still maintain that in this one instance, there was an element of misunderstanding. Just trust me in that, otherwise I have to write another five paragraph explanation, mostly containing a really boring description of my living space and certain aesthetic ambiguities that contributed to the situation. Leaving that aside, the dynamic you are expressing is pretty much my life right now. Mom is uncomfortable with the thought of being alone, but she has live with someone that she can feel superior to. She sabotages my efforts to collect the courage and will to move forward, and rewards my withdrawal into cowardice and stagnation.
I remember complaining at the end if my studies that I could watch a fucking five- hour GoldenGirls marathon, with no disturbance from her, but let me start an essay and all of a sudden furious activity would develop around me. I would wait till10 when she went to bed and start working then, and when she figured that out she suddenly developed the habit of taking four hour naps and staying up till midnight, because she overslept. I was killing myself staying up till I actually heard her snore, and then working. She usually gets up around 8: 30 or 9 in the morning, but the one time I took a 7 week class, Tuesdays and Thursdays, 7:45 AM, by God, she suddenly had 10 doctor appointments that had to be scheduled at 8 in the morning, meaning I had to get up earlier than I really needed to to make sure she didn't commandeer the bathroom and make me late. When I mentioned that I though her usual habit was to make midday appointments, she gaslighted me. "I ALWAYS do early appointments."
Needless to say, once I passed my finals, the afternoon mega naps stopped, the appointments went back to midday, and the flurry of vaporous health issues she complained about disappeared. That really was the breaking point with me, just seeing her return to normal so quickly after she had dominated the most important sections or my academic calendar. I can't trust her anymore. If I can't live with somebody I can trust, I would rather be alone.
I totally relate to the Inheritance Wars- what a Petri dish for codependency those are.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Oh boy, this gets more and more familiar. That there are two people in the world suffering this stuff is beyond ... She cannot bear for you to be happy?
It's actually very frustrating that I can't talk to people about detail.
I was once reduced to calling Samaritans after I had made a call to let the person know I was home safely, and found myself trapped in a tirade which lasted about an hour, after midnight, from the gaslighter. My call, I was paying, and I couldn't put the phone down. Partly because I was afraid of what would happen to my friend if I did, partly because the GL can do that, put a sort of control on one. I was so wound up at the end that I rang to ask how to wind myself down - advice on what they did after difficult calls. And it was no use, because they wanted to know too much about the relationship.
I hope you succeed in getting away soon.
Actually, it's three people I know of.
There was a TV programme on hoarders, one of whom kept her adult son at home to fetch and carry and so forth. His sister had escaped, and gave him occasional respite. The mother slagged him off terribly, to camera. And must have agreed to be filmed, and the film to be shown. Presumably so she could tell him how terribly he came across in public. Not how I saw it. Nor, I suspect, how most viewers did. She had not been edited kindly.
[ 15. April 2014, 21:15: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Oh boy, this gets more and more familiar. That there are two people in the world suffering this stuff is beyond ... She cannot bear for you to be happy?
Only within certain perimeters; if I am happy for reasons she can relate to, she has to make sure I haven't exceeded her happiness, and if I am happy for reasons she doesn't get, it must be a bad reflection on her state of happiness somehow.
She has to run my happiness through a series of mental checks before she can just leave me alone and let me be happy.
It's not just me, to some degree everyone around her gets this. I think one if the first big fights she got into with Neph was when he announced he was rooting for a ball team other than the Giants. We all did the jokey "how dare you" thing, but Mom actually got angry, and accused him of deliberately trying to made her angry. He was, like,7. He was totally baffled, and when I tried to talk to her about it, the fact that he was baffled and frightened by her reaction seemed far less important to her than the fact that he'd expressed a sports opinion contrary to her own.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Seriously though, I know what I need to do-- which is why I didn't' start this thread as a call for advice in All Saints*-- I already know what I need to so, it is just gonna take some time to do it. In the meantime, loving the war stories from comrades in arms in the crazy family situation.
Rant with me,hellions**!
* Hint
**Hint, hint.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
Not quite gaslighting, but similar – like many a child of the 80s, certainly in the UK, I wanted a snooker table – my father (a carpenter) made one himself – a fact he would frequently remind me about – and it took pride of place in the dining room.
However, it only took one foot out of line for the threat of “putting a saw through that snooker table” to be wheeled out – seemed that it was only given so that he had something to hold over me.
Also from my mother – “if you don’t give your favourite game away, there’ll be no Christmas presents this year”. When challenged on it some time later – utter denial.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
People getting cheated out of little knick-knacks from an inheritance?
Pah. Small fry. I got cheated out of... *counts number of cousins*... one-ninth of a house.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
If it was a racehorse that would've been noteworthy as well.
But no, it was a house. My grandfather's house, which he left to his grandkids but allowing my step-grandmother to stay in it for the remainder of her life.
My step-grandmother who, it transpired after she died, had lied wholesale about her own history pre-grandad and had also said a lot of untrue shit about her stepchildren over the years.
She'd claimed that she had been married before and that her husband and children had died in a car crash. It emerged at her funeral that her children weren't dead and she hadn't had a husband... after that and some other shocks, I think my Dad and his brothers ended up feeling that ownership of the house was a relatively trivial matter not worth pursuing. None of us really needed it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Oh boy, this gets more and more familiar. That there are two people in the world suffering this stuff is beyond ... She cannot bear for you to be happy?
Only within certain perimeters; if I am happy for reasons she can relate to, she has to make sure I haven't exceeded her happiness, and if I am happy for reasons she doesn't get, it must be a bad reflection on her state of happiness somehow.
That's how one of my sisters operates. She can be very sweet and lovely, but she has absolutely zero imagination, and so she looks at my life - very different to hers - and cannot understand my choices. So she makes no attempt at all to engage with me until such times as my life moves into a zone that she can relate to. For example, despite me living only 40 miles away during all this time, she and her family did not visit me for six entire years. I have since moved to another place, also 40 miles away, but now she visits me because I am doing a job that she can relate to and approves of.
Meanwhile, I am expected to do two things simultaneously: (a) build my life and happiness around her family, which is of course the most important thing in the world; and (b) not expect to be involved in any real sense with her children, because she wants no adult influencing them apart from her and her husband. So it is a grievous fault if I go away on holiday and cannot be at one of my nieces' or nephews' birthday parties (five birthdays - between two sisters - are spread throughout July and August, so it is impossible to take a summer break without missing one of them). And yet she has strongly discouraged me from building relationships with them. For example, I was once laughing and sympathising with her middle child about how hard it is to be the middle child, only to have her round on me for "passing on my hang-ups to her children".
Then she does this retelling history thing so that it makes her look good - and she genuinely believes it! A mild example: once she was praising to the hilt the parenting skills of a sort-of friend of hers. I commented that I thought she didn't like this woman. "Oh no," she said, "I've always thought she was wonderful." I checked this with my other sister later, and sure enough, she also said that sis couldn't stand that woman. But sis has absolutely no memory of ever not liking that person.
This turned into gaslighting in a big way when we had a serious falling out six years ago. She basically rounded on me pretty much out of nowhere - at a little family party I was holding because I was going overseas for some months. She had arrived in a foul mood, and had told me at the start that she didn't want to be there, and it was selfish of me to expect them all to come. Then, when she was throwing a tantrum about not being able to find the teabags in the cupboard, I made the mistake of saying "Oh, shut up," in weary tones, while walking away - not my most tactful moment, I admit. She lost it completely flew at me and actually screamed at me - and was heard by mother and other sister, who were pretty shocked as well. Party ruined.
When I tried to talk it over with her a couple of days later, it turns out that I had it all wrong. It was in fact me that had screamed at her, and said terrible, unforgivable things to her. (I had actually gone completely silent when she had flown at me: the quiet 'Oh, shut up," was all I had said.) But the trouble is when the gaslighting starts, how do I prove that my memory is the right one? Maybe it is me who is retelling history to make me look better. I remember one thing, and she remembers another, and how do you arbitrate between that?
I know that at the root of all this was her jealousy of my relationship with our mother. I had at that point moved back home for three months, and she accused me of "taking advantage" of her. Even when presented with direct evidence that my mother and I, as in any good relationship, actually helped each other out in a mutually supportive way (including my paying rent), she refused to revise her version of reality.
That one took a long time to repair, but I did it in the end for the sake of our mother, who doesn't deserve to have her daughters unable to be in the same room as each other. But my sister basically drove me away from the family home: I could really have done with moving back in for a couple of months when I came home from overseas, but felt I couldn't do that. And given that, unlike her, I have no husband and children, and at the time had nothing to call a home of my own, her attempts, conscious or otherwise, to separate me from my mother and my other sister were pretty devastating.
I have learned not to tell her anything personal, because although she might listen sympathetically at the time, she will use it against me later. I strongly resist holding any kind of family party now, because she will find a way to spoil it for me - which causes problems with others in the family who can't understand why I don't want to celebrate things like my 40th birthday. And I have accepted that I will always be in the wrong somewhere, and that although she is being lovely at the moment, the next attack will come, and it will come out of nowhere.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
(((Cottontail)))
My mother re-tells history, but I think she honestly believes her versions. She has a few standard narratives and will bend facts to fit into them.
We have a sad situation in the family just now, which doesn't affect me directly, but is giving me flash-backs and bad dreams about previous comparable situations which did effect me. I wish I could get it out of my head. I have tried telling myself sternly that This Is Not About Me, but then I wake up at 4am, upset and irrational.
I want to cry, but that seems self-indulgent when It Not About Me.
There's just something about families that pushes your buttons like nothing else can.
[ 16. April 2014, 12:59: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think certain things in fairy tale and myth stick because they reflect real life. Like Carabosse in Sleeping Beauty, or, before her, Eris turning up at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis with her nasty little apple. I have seen this happen. (Well, not the curse or the apple... but the turning up in fury. We didn't give a lift - offered, but refused...)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by orfeo quote:
I got cheated out of... *counts number of cousins*... one-ninth of a house.
Try this: not only destroying a will and declaring that someone died intestate but at the same time producing a typed document which was claimed to be 'the will they asked me to draw up but didn't have time to sign' which liberally slagged off me and another person.
Having, of course, used the power-of-attorney to liquidate all the bank accounts bar one before the person died and the money being squirrelled away.
The silent (sleeping?) partner to some of this finally got up the courage to tell me 6 years after the death: it wasn't news. And they 'feel guilty' about being party to it - but not so much that the disinherited grandchildren get what their grandparent wanted them to have.
The really sad thing is that the g.kids and me would prefer the person to the money anyway but...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Kelly; The true horror of a dysfunctional mother is the point where you are having a bad day and say something to yourself about a third person and then realizing you are channeling your mother's voice perfectly.
It's a wakeup call.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
I appear to have upset my mother.
I did not receive anything from her on my birthday ...
I was maligning my mother - she did send me a card but, due to a "senior moment", got the address wrong. It was returned to her and has now been resent to the correct address, so I have it as well as the replacement that she sent when I complained.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Do you pay rent to your mother ?
No at the moment, because I don't have a job. The last year I was in College I was living on financial aid, and I am currently fund-less.
Etc
I was merely thinking about about the dynamic. I remember reading an article years ago about why Christmas is difficult for many - that the family falls back into the patterns of your childhood as you are altogether at the home you grew up in.
I was thinking that without a contract, to your mum it may be just like when you were a kid, except for you being taller.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Kelly; The true horror of a dysfunctional mother is the point where you are having a bad day and say something to yourself about a third person and then realizing you are channeling your mother's voice perfectly.
It's a wakeup call.
I got into Alanon because I realized mt relationship behavior was grossly codepenant. I got into an adult child program because I heard my Father's voice coming out of my mouth, after living alone with Mom for so long. Jesus, that is far from good, and indeed it was a wake up call..
[ 16. April 2014, 23:09: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We have a sad situation in the family just now, which doesn't affect me directly, but is giving me flash-backs and bad dreams about previous comparable situations which did effect me. I wish I could get it out of my head. I have tried telling myself sternly that This Is Not About Me, but then I wake up at 4am, upset and irrational.
I want to cry, but that seems self-indulgent when It Not About Me.
I read a nice take on this once that visualized this with concentric circles. In the inner most circle is the person directly effected by the tragedy, the next circle is those closest to that person (spouse, kids, etc.) and so on outward. The notion was that when you are communicating inward (e.g. you are the spouse talking to the effected person) you offer support and compassion-- the "it's not about me" stuff. But when you are talking outward (e.g. you are the spouse/caregiver talking to your friend rather than the effected person) there are no such rules-- you can complain, bitch, moan, and be as self-centered as you like.
So, for this thread (which has honestly become as heavenly as it is hellish) you are speaking to an outer circle-- we don't know your family, we only know you-- so feel free to be as selfish as you wish.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Exactly! Here is where your inner child gets to throw a big old tantrum!
[ 18. April 2014, 04:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Exactly! Here is where your inner child gets to throw a big old tantrum!
Ach! I don't want to throw a tantrum. I want to cry and cry. We have had yet another bad situation complicated by poor communication.
My sister in law told my mother X, and assumed that my mother had passed this on to me. But my mother thought that my sister-in-law couldn't possibly mean X, and she told me that my sister-in-law hadn't said anything, and she had definitely not said X. If fact she had said Not-X. And in response to my repeated queries, Mum said that she thought it must be a sensitive subject because my sister-in-law was avoiding the subject. (Whereas in fact, having told my mother X sis-in-law simply hadn't seen a need to repeat it.) So I didn't phone my sis-in-law because I didn't know X and thought the whole subject was being avoided.
Fast forward 4 weeks, and my sister-in-law met my daughter and realised my daughter didn't know X. So she phoned me and found out that I didn't know X either. So, four weeks late, she told me X. And I phoned Mum and she said, yes, sister-in-law might have said X at the outset, but surely she didn't mean X??
And this has happened so much to me- Mum reacts not to what I've said, in plain English, but to what she thinks I meant. And if I say something like "Black is black" I have no idea what Mum is going to hear - "Black is green? Black is black, but with red spots? Black is black, but kind of faded, more of a grey, really? Black is currently yellow, but plans to be be black one day?"
Then it works the other way, too. Mum says something to me, but doesn't mean it literally. Sometimes she says the exact opposite of what she means, assuming I'll understand. But I don't. I just don't. I just get bewildered.
Part of this I do understand. She was brought up in a twisted Presbyterian mindset which encouraged her not to express personal wants. She had to always remember that there are less fortunate people in the world and if God heard her say "I want an ice-cream!" God would be outraged and think that she had forgotten about the starving children in India. So she had to say things she didn't mean, in order to be acceptable to God. "No! Of course I don't want an ice-cream."
But then if she says to me "I don't want an ice-cream" and I think she means that she doesn't want an ice-cream, and don't get her one, I realise that she's disappointed and I've got it wrong (AGAIN!) and that "I don't want" was code for "I do want"
But it works the other way, too. I will say "I want an ice-cream" and Mum will think, hmmm... the Quine wants something bigger than ice-cream, but is minimising what she actually wants to stop God thinking that she's forgotten the queues at the Food Bank. What can the Quine possibly want? Clearly, she doesn't want an ice-cream. That can be ruled out straight away. So what does she want ....hmmmm....
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
The "I want to cry" is actually about X, but the fact that I found out about X 4 weeks late just compounded everything and added a whole extra swirl of unhappiness on top. As if X wasn't bad enough.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
{{Quine}}
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Alas. If this is your mother, then it is very probable that she is too old to change her ways. (Heck, I'm too old to change my ways!)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Thank you so much, north east Quine, for explaining something to me. I've been ranting away at my family saying, in effect, if everyone was as brave and clever as me, they would speak clearly of their needs in plain English! But the reality is that they can't, any more than an alcoholic can just decide to be sober, and need help and support and compassion... And yet without enabling.
I want to cry for you... it is about you, too.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The "I want to cry" is actually about X, but the fact that I found out about X 4 weeks late just compounded everything and added a whole extra swirl of unhappiness on top. As if X wasn't bad enough.
Now I want to hug you. And buy you an ice cream.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
But it works the other way, too. I will say "I want an ice-cream" and Mum will think, hmmm... the Quine wants something bigger than ice-cream, but is minimising what she actually wants to stop God thinking that she's forgotten the queues at the Food Bank. What can the Quine possibly want? Clearly, she doesn't want an ice-cream. That can be ruled out straight away. So what does she want ....hmmmm....
That sounds absolutely crazy making.
(and sorry all I meant by "tantrum" is that you aren't required to present a "fair and balanced opinion." All you need is your own. )
And while I can't offer advice (first of all because this is Hell, and second because what do I know, anyway?) I sure as hell can commiserate. I have actually gotten to the point when I have just flat out told my mom, "I will not try to read your mind. You need to tell me what you want if you want me to get it right."
She still insists that if people really cared they would anticipate her every need.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Oh Lordy, do you get 'But I thought you would have understood that.' or worse 'Well you have obviously not thought of me at all'.
Well yes Mum I did think of you but thought that when you said you wanted to go to the cemetary on your own on the anniversary of Dad's death, that actually meant you wanted to go on your own!
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's a test. If you really love (insert relative of choice here), you'll be so in tune with them that you'll crack the code and know what they think, as opposed to what they said.
I confess, I've had the occasional moment in my past where I've taken the 'you should know what I'm thinking' attitude with someone. Only I always snapped out of it quite quickly, realising how profoundly bloody stupid it was to ask people to be psychic.
[ 20. April 2014, 12:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Friend's mother. Only fortunately, it seems, yesterday when she assured him that she did want him to go out while she grieved over the news of a friend's death, that's what she meant.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Oh Lordy, do you get 'But I thought you would have understood that.' or worse 'Well you have obviously not thought of me at all'.
Well yes Mum I did think of you but thought that when you said you wanted to go to the cemetery on your own on the anniversary of Dad's death, that actually meant you wanted to go on your own!
My mom's tropes are "Why should I ask when it is obvious what I need?" (exact words) and "Why should I say thank you to someone when they are just doing what they are supposed to do?" (this when I was talking her through how to reinforce Neph's good behavior. "You say thank you to encourage him to do it again, and also just because it models politeness, Mom."
I'm actually blue this morning because literally everyone in my family is at church. I am not, because the last time I celebrated Easter at that place, it turned into family hell.
One of the many reasons I stopped going to my home church was that I was being harassed by an older member of the church-- someone well placed and respected, so I never would have gotten help from the pastor about it (based on how I'd seen him deal with other young women in the same situation, he would have chided me for spreading gossip and sent me out to confront him alone, because that damn verse in whatever Pauline book it was meant a 19 year old girl was obligated to face a predatory male on her own two feet.)
So, I turn into one of those C&E Christians I promised myself I would never be. The year in question, I was sitting in a pew with my mom and two of her friends when the man cam in. He entered the pew on the opposite side and slid next to me.
I did not want to sit next to him. The last time he sat next to me, he grabbed my knee. I made a pretense of going to the ladies room, and when I came back my mom hopped out into the aisle and began scolding everyone to hop out, too,and give me my place back. I told them it was ok, just scoot over and I would sit on the end(which is what I was angling for anyway.) She riased her voice"NO, GO BACK WHERE YOU WERE! WHY DO WE HAVE TO SCOOT OVER? YOUR PURSE IS OVER THERE!"
so, unless I wanted to make a scene, I had to sit back ibn that spot. I spent the entire service trembling.
After the service I took her aside in the narthex and told her,"The reason I didn't want to go back to my place was--"
She snapped,"That was the guy who was bothering you, right?"
I was devoid of answer.
As we walked down to the after service breakfast, my sister noticed that I looked shaken; I gave her a whispered summary of what had happened, and she told me to meet her in the bathroom for a talk. I went, and waited, and waited and waited. I finally came out and found the table the family was at. Both my mom and sis barked WHERE WERE YOU? at me. And they spent a merry Easter chatting about dresses and hats and godly blessing, occasionally barking at me to cheer up or pass the potatoes, while I tried vainly to get a grip on my crying, which never happened. The apex of this awful day was when my sister pointed a camera at my tear stained face and demanded I smile.
I can't go back there. If at least I felt like my people had my back, I could do it, but I can't face that mountain of shit alone. And that incident made it clear how alone I really was.
I pretty much let everyone know after that I was not setting foot in the church again, which means each holiday I get a speech aimed at me about what a loyal daughter my sister is for driving a half hour to go to church with her. Yes, I have clearly explained what my problem is, no they don't give a shit.
[ 20. April 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Don't talk to the pastor, scream loudly on contact and call the police on your cell phone. Whatever else happens he'll never come within five feet of you again.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That is very fucking easy for you to say.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You think ? I have vivid memories of being stuck in a boarding school for months at a time, 8000 miles away from my family, with unsafe staff.
One of the advantages of maturity and experience is realising you can do things differently this time round.
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Possible alternate result: Perv never comes within five feet of Kelly ever again, and Family Alves further abuses Kelly as "our awful sister who screamed and falsely publicly accused nice kind Mr. P.E.R. Vee."
I don't know what the least harmful thing to do would be for the young Kelly. Good on you for not going back to that church, Kelly.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
You think ? I have vivid memories of being stuck in a boarding school for months at a time, 8000 miles away from my family, with unsafe staff.
One of the advantages of maturity and experience is realising you can do things differently this time round.
Did the unsafe staff have their wife and kids sitting right next to them? Friends of yours? Kids you counseled in youth group?
I would not dream of judging any decision you might have made about the situation you were in. And since you say you have been in a similar situation I will again express surprise at how easy it is for you to judge my response to being groped in church as inadequate-- except wait, you didn't even ask what my response was. If you were in such a situation, don't you have experience with how scary and confusing and hurtful it is? At ANY age, excuse me?
I am very sorry I did not perform up to your standards, but I did the very best I was capable of doing at the time, and I did what I thought (and still think) was the best thing to do.
In the first instance (if you even give a shit) I got up and changed seats. I didn't have anyone to interfere. I might be better able to cope with something like that in my wisdom and maturity, but why set myself up to cope with it when I can just stay the hell away from the guy?
And my wisdom and maturity lead me to get away from a church in which I didn't feel safe. I think that was the best thing to do, too. Am I allowed to feel some grief over it?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I know this is Hell, but can we not do this?
There are several reasons I am not very much into revealing personal things here, this is one.
Victims should be about supporting each other.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
well this isn't the place for support.
I guess it was unwise for me to open up that particular wound here. I was in a bad space this morning and will bow out.
Actually, I have just as much a right to rant as anyone else, so I will bow out-- for now. I thought I was angry when I wrote that story above but-- it's something else. I'll come back when I am genuinely angry.
[ 21. April 2014, 05:32: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Kelly, that is the second time you have responded on this thread to a post of mine in a way, that seems to me, to include responses to a lot of things I did not say or think. Perhaps I have been ambiguous, perhaps you are over-reading, perhaps both.
Your post talked about an incident in your teens, but also being sad about not being able to go to that church now - in the present. And it was in the present / potential future that I responded.
Being trapped in frightening unpleasant situations when young is a very powerful learning experience. Our unconcious mind does notice the passage of time, and it is painfully easy to get sucked back into the same emotional space as adults. To act as if the only choices we have now, are the ones we had then. Of course you can choose to avoid certain places or people, but it can be empowering / healing to go back and reclaim bits of the world. It is easier to do, if you have a clear plan of how it is going to be different this time.
Observing a different response is possible is not a judgement, its a new option. Maybe its not the right option for you, but it is one of many choices you could make.
This thread is full of stories from different posters, about how such a relationship has always been X, she does a and I do b and it happens again and again. Well, we may not be able to change a, but b is in our control now in a way it wasn't years ago. The risk is that we don't notice this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
I've received some excellent support on this very thread - much of it from Kelly. I'm going to assume the 'can we not do this?' from LilBuddha was about the differences of opinion, rather than the topic, and chip in to say that several years ago I did 'the right thing' by reporting sexual harassment at work - well - was it the right thing?, I ask myself, still. I reported what was going on (although it was a relatively open secret and pretty much any female under 50 was fair game to this guy). This was one of the things that decided me - the fact that management could not possibly have been unaware of the behaviour, so the only possible explanation was that they didn't really know it was upsetting to the women who had to put up with it.
Well, I got shat on by several levels of management, for 'making a fuss about nothing', 'causing a lot of work for all the people who are going to have to look into these allegations now', and 'undermining [perpetrator's] manager by raising this issue with senior management'. I was so enraged by this that I had a proper shouting match with my immediate manager, who (fortunately) used shouting as a currency himself rather a lot, and didn't refer me to any sort of disciplinary process.
But the actual perpetrator? What happened to him? Fuck all, that I could tell. Maybe he was gently taken aside and asked if he could please be a little more sensitive, maybe not. What I am quite sure of is that he didn't get as much shit as I did, despite having spent years getting a kick out of making females uncomfortable in his presence. Because he wasn't creating any paperwork, was he? He wasn't making extra work for HR. No...that was me...
Honestly, screw these people - all of them. The ones who (metaphorically) punch you in the face, unprovoked, and the supporting cast who say, 'My god, look at all that blood on your shirt! How careless of you! Did you never stop to think about who is going to have to wash that out?' And that this is going on in a church? That's sad, but what's even sadder is that it isn't surprising. Screaming - or reporting (otherwise known as making a fuss) - may be the right thing to do, but it isn't always the best thing to do, ISTM.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hey, I've got both of those too - SNAP!
quote:
My mom's tropes are "Why should I ask when it is obvious what I need?" (exact words)
Yay, thanks Mrs MiM Snr!
quote:
and "Why should I say thank you to someone when they are just doing what they are supposed to do?"
And Mr MiM Snr too - come on down.
My parents failure to deal with challenging social situations (viz your church story) also led to them controlling their children (who, I guess, they felt they had some control over) rather than attempting to deal with a third party; I guess the thought of public failure there was more than their fragile egos could handle. In my case their finest moment came as they sent me away for a week's holiday with a paedophile uncle. Guess my stumbling 8 or 9 yr-old attempts to explain how he was touching me had been just too darn embarrassing to warrant attention, heh?
The uncle is dead, but everyone else is still alive. I don't know if their death, when it comes, will free me from the rage I still feel toward them - I suspect not. Forgiving them requires supernatural, massive and constant grace injections into me, to pour down their ever-needy throats if we interact. I am not spiritually-gifted enough to pull this off. Not forgiving them burns me up and kills other relationships. Hey, this is Hell.
[ 21. April 2014, 09:01: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I'm going to assume the 'can we not do this?' from LilBuddha was about the differences of opinion, rather than the topic,
This is correct. We can do this thread without hurting each other.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Posting this after all the really difficult stories above seems a little self-indulgent but you know what - just cos the guy next door has lost his leg doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when I stub my toe. So here goes.
Yesterday, Easter Sunday, a lovely day for all the family to get together. So husband, son who lives with us, son who is in a care home, daughter who lives in North London and myself all go to see my mother in her new flat. We had a drink and then went down to the local restaurant for lunch. On the way mother took the opportunity to tell me that my daughter needed to lose weight and as her mother, I should tell her that and make her go on a diet. Now my mother has struggled with her weight all her life and is obsessed with it. Her definition of a good daughter is one who is slim, successful and runs a clean tidy home. Slim equals pretty, fat equals ugly, slovenly and uncaring. I have struggled with weight all my life and suffered from low self-esteem due (in part) to my mother's criticism and I will not do the same to my beloved daughter. She is beautiful, confident, caring, enthusiastic and I will not do anything to dent that.
If this was a one off then I wouldn't get upset. But everytime we see her I get the same. She has reduced my daughter to tears and that brings out the beast in me. I do not see my daughter as much as I would like and she is spoiling it for me.
OK, rant over.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Nothing self-indulgent about that. Can we absorb the shit coming down the generations, and pass less of it on to our children? Will our offspring marry wankers anyway, and spawn a whole new strain?! for us all, and especially our children.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Good for you, tessa! Your daughter is lucky to have you.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Forgiving them requires supernatural, massive and constant grace injections into me, to pour down their ever-needy throats if we interact. I am not spiritually-gifted enough to pull this off. Not forgiving them burns me up and kills other relationships.
Amen to that.
For some odd reason, articulating my anger dampens it down some-- it's like, making it text makes it smaller, more manageable.
Yesterday, for instance-- I did manage to have fun Easter. I actively focused on more-or less playing with my older sister-- there is a lot more to work with , relationship wise, with her. We both just kind of unified to aim positivity at each other and everyone else in the face of my mom's pretty much non-stop negative comments. We even managed to do it in a positive, inclusive way (Meaning, our fun wasn't based on laughing at Mom.Well, mostly.)
At the end of the day, I gave her a big hug and thanked her for helping me laugh.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Her definition of a good daughter is one who is slim, successful and runs a clean tidy home.
Oh shit, tessaB, we're sisters!
(Shit that we both have the same horrid mother, not shit at you.)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Mother who:
* asks at TV store for a white clerk.
* refuses to walk in between two black people who are standing on either side of a wide archway.
* mutes the sound if a black person is talking on TV
* won't watch a certain game show because it often has people of colour or lower socioeconomic class or fat people on it.
* is deeply annoyed if a person of colour (or a fat person) wins on her favourite game show
* thinks it's disgustingly revolting and sick that my (mostly white) chorus did a concert of gospel music from the African American tradition. Her attitude: "White people shouldn't mix like that"
* decides on doctors by if they have an English-sounding name, or if failing that, looks on web to see their picture to see if they look white enough
* compliments people's babies by saying how white their skin is
I don't know how to deal with this.
I think at the TV store, that instead of cringing inwardly and standing silently by, I should have said "this shopping trip is over" (I was buying her a TV) and left.
Other things I've tried to challenge the thinking and I get met with a massive stonewall of refusal to change in any way, or even consider the possiblity of an alternative way of thinking. So currently I've given up trying to challenge this.
I've always been the "be quiet and get along" person with my mother. I'm thinking, enough of that shit, time to change (in many many areas, not just this racist shit part). But I see much more possibilities in the other areas. I just have no idea about how to respond to the racism.
Fuck manipulative narcissistic bastards everywhere, and especially the subtype manipulative narcissistic bigoted racist bastard.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't know if it is helpful to reflect that she is probably not going to change. And that therefore the only thing you could change is your reaction to her.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Thanks, Brenda. It is helpful to think that she is not going to change, because it allows me to let go of thinking that I'm at fault in some way for not yet finding a way to change her.
It's my own reaction that I completely don't know what it should be. It seems so pollutingly awful to be a silent witness to this.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Oh, I left out:
* Standing on head {figuratively, although literally wouldn't be out of the question...} to arrange to have assistant at [diet place] with white enough skin.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I'm done accommodating there, though.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
Holy soggy moonpies and flat beer, is this thread still alive?
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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