homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Fucking Guns (Page 25)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  ...  47  48  49 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't have to have these arguments in my community, because those arguments have already been won.

no, those arguments were not won because they never truly existed. The history of guns in the UK is very different to the history in America. Australia would be a little closer, but even there the gun was not part of the mythos as much as America.
BTW, the murder rate in the UK did not have a significant decline following the ban of handguns. In fact, it rose slightly with a spike ~ 2002.

Then there is the gun lobby. Despite the majority of its members supporting some form of gun control, the NRA and their puppets have attempted to double-down instead of listen.
And, Doc Tor, what have you done to stem the attempts to dismantle the NHS? The world will be holding you responsible when finally it dies.

Geez, they're all coming out tonight. The logical fallacies, I mean.

So thanks for saying that Hungerford (where my mum lost a friend) and Dunblane didn't really count, and conflating personal responsibility (what with all the voting and marches and shit) with collective responsibility, which is what I've been advocating all along.

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm considering asking the Admins to check to see if someone hasn't hijacked your account as whoever is tying posts from it is displaying a level of intelligence so low as to be dangerous. romanlion, is that you?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm over for a few days in July. I shall be deploying my lament from a public platform, and gather the responses in the bar afterwards.

Will you be in a red state or a blue state? (Reference maps here.) If you're going to be in a red state, maybe ask some of those folks in the bar about gun control.

Also: "deploy" is an interesting word choice in this context.

Posts: 24449 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doc Tor--

I'm giving you a prescription:

1) STHU.

2) Grab and eat some calming comfort food.

3) Read the first 10 or so pages of this thread, and pay attention to what we American Shipmates said, so we don't have to repeat ourselves for the umpteenth time.

4. Go for a walk.

5. Go home, and indulge in TV, radio, music, or hand puppets.

6. Sleep, and wake up in a better mindset.

Apply daily, as needed.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18392 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm considering asking the Admins to check to see if someone hasn't hijacked your account as whoever is tying posts from it is displaying a level of intelligence so low as to be dangerous. romanlion, is that you?

(lunges at lilbuddha in another soul kiss attempt.)

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And it never occurred to you that might cut both ways?

Well, yes. Did it occur to you that people move around the world, and may be live in another country, and people who know them and love them want them to stay safe? I'm guessing it has.

Did it occur to you that We the You People care about the safety of our friends and relatives, too? Maybe even some of the same people you consider Your People?

Fuck, do you think actual human beings live over here? Why are you so convinced that gun violence in America is much more of a problem for people living 6000 miles away than the people who actually live here?

I can't imagine generating the kind of gargantuan arrogance necessary to make a statement like that about the residents of another country. And I can be pretty damn arrogant when I want to be.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is this one is even too much for Hell?

Gunman fatally shoots Pennsylvania churchgoer after fight over seat at Sunday service

I just can't imagine this.

This is a link to the church website: Keystone.

[ 29. April 2016, 23:57: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11313 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I can't imagine generating the kind of gargantuan arrogance necessary to make a statement like that about the residents of another country.

I don't know that it has to be put down to arrogance. People make sweeping generalizations for all sorts of reasons.

If someone really thinks all Americans have their heads up their ass on this topic, they ought to admire how well organized we are, getting 300,000,000+ people to all think the same thing.

Posts: 24449 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Yeah, mt. Go have a cooler or something. I don't think anyone's particularly in the mood.

You are stone deaf, stoneheart, if you aren't hearing plainly what they're not in the mood for. You're playing it up. Probably wanking off under the table while you read the posts telling you to shut up. You get off on it.

[ 30. April 2016, 00:54: Message edited by: mousethief ]

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63427 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If someone really thinks all Americans have their heads up their ass on this topic, they ought to admire how well organized we are, getting 300,000,000+ people to all think the same thing.

That is a really admirable feat. Of course, we Brits don't tend to admire that sort of thing since we have managed so well to get a similar number of our fellow Europeans to think the same way. I also know someone who has a well trained herd of cats, and you should see the synchronised aerobatics of his pigs.

[ 30. April 2016, 00:58: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32255 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But I have also read that the gun lobby is not at all happy with the existence of these guns, let alone making laws requiring them. And certainly the gun nuts aren't rushing out to protect their families and loved ones by purchasing them. Which speaks volumes about the gun nuts, I think.

I've heard that, too, and the argument makes sense to me, if you accept the premise (which is the "I need a gun to defend myself against burglars / terrorists / the NSA / whoever" thing).

The argument is that palm print sensors or whatever are designed to fail safe (as they have to be - otherwise they're pointless). If you don't get a positive id, you don't get a bang. This is entirely appropriate for most kinds of locks in most kinds of situations, because in most situations, the job of the lock is to prevent access to the thing that's locked up, and there's no significant downside to having to retry the unlock process.

If you actually "need" your gun, and your need for it is such that you have to have it available, rather than locked in the safe unloaded etc. ('cause if it was unloaded and in the safe, the fancy palm print sensor doesn't buy yo much extra safety - it's safe anyway), then you think you need it immediately. You are working under the assumption that attackers are going to come crashing through your front door, and you have seconds to gain access to your weapon.

Under those conditions, what you want is a simple mechanism that goes bang when you point it. A device that might fail (because you're not holding it quite right, or because you're sweating too much, or...) is worse than not having a gun at all.

Now, I don't accept the premise. I don't keep a loaded gun by my bed (in fact, I don't keep any kind of gun anywhere). But if I did accept the premise - if I did think that I needed to have a gun readily accessible to protect myself and my family - then there's no way I'd consider equipping that gun with any kind of biometric lock, because there's no way I could guarantee that it would work when I needed it.

Because if I have decided that I need to have an easily-accessible gun for my family's safety, then I have already decided that the risk of a home invasion is greater than the risk of a child getting hold of the gun. We all know that statistically this is the opposite of true, but apparently I've decided that I'm not like those statistics. And if I've already decided that I'm more likely to be defending myself against a home invasion than having a child find my gun, I'm not going to make my gun less effective because there's a small chance that a child might find it.

Posts: 4959 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't the the biometric lock idea is meant to appeal to gun nuts with paranoid delusions of threat and effectiveness. I think it's meant to be reasonable enough compromise to be what's legally allowed to be sold to civilians, instead of the seemingly unacceptable extremes of either the current bullet-o-rama or total bans.

"Reasonable enough" being it's own laughable comment on humanity.

Posts: 15215 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
RooK, LC, I see what you're saying. Yeah, reasonableness is not really on the table is it. Sigh.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63427 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doc Tor, you are ranting at a group of individuals for being part a nation with problems. You'll find plenty of opportunities for that all over.

Why not rant at the inhabitants of the UK next time a child slips through the child protection system. Or rant at a group of African immigrants you have access to next news report you see about rape in the DRC. Or rant at a group of Gay men next time you hear about an HIV transmission to a young vulnerable man without a condom.

And your mum's friend? Your mum and her community should have been part of organizing gun control earlier. (By the way the UK was not even remotely like the US in terms of gun control before Hungerford anyway so it's a daft argument). Don't expect sympathy from anyone here. What was wrong with her?

What the fuck is wrong with YOU?

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

 - Posted      Profile for Twilight     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is this one is even too much for Hell?

Gunman fatally shoots Pennsylvania churchgoer after fight over seat at Sunday service

I just can't imagine this.

This is a link to the church website: Keystone.

quote:
from the article: Storms told police that he was hoping to defuse the situation by showing a gun, which, according to court documents, he's done in the past.
Yes, I always find the sight of a gun very calming.

The whole church makes me mad. There is absolutely no excuse for special assigned seats for special people in a Christian church.

Posts: 6750 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I just can't imagine this. . . . The whole church makes me mad. There is absolutely no excuse for special assigned seats for special people in a Christian church.

Or for this kind of language in church:

quote:
He yelled "don't f---ing touch me" after a church member tapped him on the shoulders to let him know he was in someone else's seat.


--------------------
"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

Posts: 10443 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I can't imagine generating the kind of gargantuan arrogance necessary to make a statement like that about the residents of another country.

I don't know that it has to be put down to arrogance. People make sweeping generalizations for all sorts of reasons.

If someone really thinks all Americans have their heads up their ass on this topic, they ought to admire how well organized we are, getting 300,000,000+ people to all think the same thing.

"Sweeping generalizations" are one thing. That was not what I was talking about. The gleeful "what the fuck is wrong with you?" Game that Doc (and others) are playing is what I was referring to. Repeatedly posting heartbreaking national tragedies just to gloat over them. Maybe " arrogant" is too kind a word, come to think of it.

Even more directly, I was responding to the idea that the accusatory rants were justified because British folk "might have friends and relatives here." Again, maybe there just isn't a satisfactory adjective in existence. Unless "WTFness" is a word.

Wow, you're right, dude, sorry. We Americans have no idea what it is like to have friends and relatives who live in a terrifying place like America.

I mean, after my dumbass nephew E. shot himself and his "connected" girlfriend, his mom had to bug out her entire family to Assmunch, Solano County and hide for a year and a half to avoid the threatened chain reaction that might follow this event, but, you know, they aren't
British. They are You People. They no doubt deserve whatever they experienced because they were crass enough to be born here.

Yeah, give me an adjective for that one.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, you know, I’m not telling you how you should react. Getting angry, screaming and crying is what normal, decent people do when presented with such a litany of disasters. I have to read each and every one of these, check the links, read more.

This is not a natural disaster. This is not a disease for which there is no cure. This is not a tornado, or an earthquake, or a flood. These are preventable deaths. And, no matter what the likes of mousethief or Kelly say, reading these little snippets of tragedy every few days – posted mainly by US shipmates, because only the really awful ones turn up in the UK press – doesn’t give me a callus where my feelings should be. Quite the opposite.

And when some of you here start on comparing how to hide guns from kids in the same way you would the household cleaning agents, you (individually – because apparently many more of you have difficulty separating the individual you from the collective you) sound fucking nuts. Sorry and all, but you sound absolutely fucking nuts.

If I never had to read another report of a stupid, wicked death perpetrated by some stupid and/or wicked person, then that would be great. But they keep on happening, and apparently there’s nothing that can be done to stop them. The USA is in thrall to its past, and enough of your fellow citizens think that 13000 deaths a year is a price worth paying for the freedom of gun ownership.

If you want nothing but sympathy, we have threads for that, even in Hell. This is not one of them. The people of America are not Princess Peach, trapped in the castle, waiting for Mario to rescue them. You (collectively) have to power to fix this – and you fucking well know it.

Yes, I care. Uselessly, pointlessly, impotently, inaccurately, inadvisedly. I don’t give a single fuck what you think about that. But at least it’s not a shrug. You’re all worth more than that.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

 - Posted      Profile for Hiro's Leap   Email Hiro's Leap   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If you actually "need" your gun, and your need for it is such that you have to have it available, rather than locked in the safe unloaded etc. ('cause if it was unloaded and in the safe, the fancy palm print sensor doesn't buy yo much extra safety - it's safe anyway), then you think you need it immediately.

True, but for some gun owners a secure lock might allow them to keep their weapon somewhere slightly more accessible, offsetting the second or so it takes to unlock it.

The Identilock looks like an interesting option.

Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd prefer a shrug to this kind of abuse. "I wouldn't hit you if I didn't love you" is of small comfort.

Kelly, [Overused]

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63427 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't have to have these arguments in my community, because those arguments have already been won.

no, those arguments were not won because they never truly existed. The history of guns in the UK is very different to the history in America. Australia would be a little closer, but even there the gun was not part of the mythos as much as America.
BTW, the murder rate in the UK did not have a significant decline following the ban of handguns. In fact, it rose slightly with a spike ~ 2002.

Then there is the gun lobby. Despite the majority of its members supporting some form of gun control, the NRA and their puppets have attempted to double-down instead of listen.
And, Doc Tor, what have you done to stem the attempts to dismantle the NHS? The world will be holding you responsible when finally it dies.

Just been reading about that, and exactly-- my reaction to reading that is outrage
On behalf of y'all Britmates-- sure, I say, " Fight for it!" But I can't wrap my mind around the idea of referencing some story about a British person dying due to lack of insurance and announcing, " and you people are just letting it happen."

And the main reason I wouldn't do that is that I haven't been living in a sensory deprivation unit with strictly censored media input, and I am fully aware plenty of British folk are screaming the house down about it. And if NHS is dismantled-- truly, God forbid-- I certainly wouldn't fold my arms and announce that the screaming never happened, otherwise they would have won the fight.

And if I was enough of an asshole to do that, Doc, tell me half the board wouldn't be pounding a path to Hell just to tell me what a monster I was. And I doubt any British person would translate rhetoric like that as deep concern. You'd think I was flipping you off, and you'd have every right to think that.

And remind me of Hell ethics-- if someone flips you off in Hell, are you required to humbly bow your head and not respond, so that you don't hurt their little feelings by implying that they might be acting like an asshole?

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I refer you to the part where I don't give a shit about how you translate my posts. You (individually) seem to want to interpret them in the worst possible light, so knock yourself out. If you (or anyone else) wants to read it as abuse, I can't stop you. You're wrong, you're being an arsehole, yet you expect me to fold. Fuck that.

And yes, if we (collectively) let the NHS fall, it will be our (collective) fault. There'll be nothing that you (individually or collectively) can say that'll be worse than what I'll be saying. We'll deserve everything we get.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not the only one saying you're getting it wrong, dude. In fact in the last couple pages, a few Britmates and one or two Canadians have chimed in to that effect.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doc Tor, you seem to be under the belief that there are no Americans working to correct our serious gun problem, that all of us are simply wringing our hands and saying "oh dear". This is simply not the case.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11752 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

If you want nothing but sympathy, we have threads for that, even in Hell. This is not one of them. The people of America are not Princess Peach, trapped in the castle, waiting for Mario to rescue them. You (collectively) have to power to fix this – and you fucking well know it.

You are not typically this stupid, have you had a fall recently?
Yes, anyone who is not actively working for change is at least partially responsible for its lack. Apathy, feeling powerless, being in a constituency which is not representative of one's view, etc. And the same motherfucking thing is true in the UK, where people manage to murder each just fine without guns. What are you doing to stem the violence? What are you doing to stem the erosion of the NHS? What are you doing to educate people to stop voting against their own interests? What are you doing to end the fucking safe seat system that is choking the country?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And where do I give that impression? I've acknowledged the efforts that people are making - some of those people are here. It's a struggle. You're on the side of right. You know it. I know it.

What else am I supposed to say here? That I enjoy reading this crap? That I shake my head and give a little chuckle, "Oh those wacky Americans and their gun-loving ways"? Not happening.

(x-posted)

[ 30. April 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
He's been told that. Several times. By Brits and Americans alike. It doesn't fit his schema, so he ignores it.

The fact of the matter is, on a rhetorical and awareness level, progress is being made. The frantic way the NRA and open carry folk are fighting back is evidence of that. In the same way the hysterical behavior of Southern white supremists in the 60's signaled the fact that the Jim Crow stronghold had developed enough tiny fissures to come crashing down. The GOP is auto- cannibalizing because there is no longer solid unity on issues like gun control ( among other things.)

In terms of cultural disparity, America is colossal. Change in America is usually glacial, in speed and in relentlessness. I believe gun control changes are coming, but I understand the process, and I understand those changes are going to happen step by excruciating step.

So fuck contemptuous despair- mongering. If I am going to "fight the good fight" as Penny put it, I need all the faith and patience I can muster.

[ 30. April 2016, 17:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

And yes, if we (collectively) let the NHS fall, it will be our (collective) fault. There'll be nothing that you (individually or collectively) can say that'll be worse than what I'll be saying. We'll deserve everything we get.

Yes, it will be. And if you do not understand why it is very likely to happen with the tacit support of the affected, then trying to educate you as to the American gun problem is futile.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Doc Tor, does it ever occur to you, I mean like EVER, that if this many people are reacting to what you say in a certain way -- people from multiple different countries with very different social climates -- then maybe you ought to stop and take stock and see if what you're saying is really what you mean to be saying? If you're really coming across as saying what you want to be heard as saying?

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63427 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

And yes, if we (collectively) let the NHS fall, it will be our (collective) fault. There'll be nothing that you (individually or collectively) can say that'll be worse than what I'll be saying. We'll deserve everything we get.

Yes, it will be. And if you do not understand why it is very likely to happen with the tacit support of the affected, then trying to educate you as to the American gun problem is futile.
I do understand that's exactly the problem. "The tacit support of the affected" is exactly the problem.

So given that I understand that, have you anything else here?

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

And when some of you here start on comparing how to hide guns from kids in the same way you would the household cleaning agents, you (individually – because apparently many more of you have difficulty separating the individual you from the collective you) sound fucking nuts. Sorry and all, but you sound absolutely fucking nuts.

Why so?

Look, we get that you don't think people should have guns. I understand that. For you, there's no reasonable safety precaution to take with a gun in the house, because there's no valid reason to have the gun in the house, and the only reasonable, safe approach is to get rid of it.

But the fact is that there are millions of Americans who don't agree with that, and we need to deal with the world that exists, rather than the one that we'd like to exist. Just repeating "you're fucking nuts" like you've seen a squirrel who really likes his dinner doesn't get you anywhere.

So here are some things that everyone can agree to, whether they're hard-core gun-banners, second amendment absolutists, or anywhere in between:

Guns are dangerous tools.

Many Americans own handguns, and keep them in their houses.

Small children should be kept apart from guns.

In this sense, keeping the kids away from guns is exactly the same as keeping them away from Grandma's chewable cherry-flavour acetaminophen (the one in the easy-open old-person bottle labelled "not for households with children"), the household bleach or the bandsaw. There are things in your house / car / environment that are dangerous, and you are responsible for a person who does not have the hazard analysis skills necessary to recognize and avoid those dangers. So you have to keep them apart.

Posts: 4959 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And where do I give that impression? I've acknowledged the efforts that people are making - some of those people are here. It's a struggle. You're on the side of right. You know it. I know it.

What else am I supposed to say here? That I enjoy reading this crap? That I shake my head and give a little chuckle, "Oh those wacky Americans and their gun-loving ways"? Not happening.

(x-posted)

Well, since you're taking suggestions, how about posting ... nothing?

I think that would be preferable to pretending that "What the fuck is wrong with you people?" and "Why can't you people sort yourselves out?" are "genuine questions".

Posts: 2040 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In this sense, keeping the kids away from guns is exactly the same as keeping them away from Grandma's chewable cherry-flavour acetaminophen (the one in the easy-open old-person bottle labelled "not for households with children"), the household bleach or the bandsaw. There are things in your house / car / environment that are dangerous, and you are responsible for a person who does not have the hazard analysis skills necessary to recognize and avoid those dangers. So you have to keep them apart.

And yes. I agree that medicines, household cleaning agents and power tools need to be separated from children. I made sure, when the Torlets were younger, not only this was done, but that they were educated about their dangers if they were to ever come across something like that that wasn't stored correctly.

And yes, if you're going to have guns around the house, there are similar rules that you can apply.

However. 66 deaths a year from household chemicals. 33 from power tools. 13,000 deaths a year from guns. Qualitatively, then, guns belong in a different category to 'tools'. Guns don't unblock a sink. Guns don't saw wood. Guns are explicitly made to kill. They don't need similar rules: they need an entirely different set of rules that match the threat they pose to the owner, their family, and anyone else that might come into contact with the gun.

If you treat a gun like you treat bleach, then you're doing it wrong.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Well, since you're taking suggestions, how about posting ... nothing?

Just as long as everyone else joins in. I haven't exactly enjoyed twenty-odd pages of links to stories of dead people. I can do without twenty more.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

So given that I understand that, have you anything else here?

If you have the capacity to understand the why of it, then you can begin to understand part of the American gun problem. Re-read Leaf's post and perhaps you can begin to understand other factors. I have hopes for you yet, overly optimistic though they may be.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

 - Posted      Profile for Dave W.   Email Dave W.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Well, since you're taking suggestions, how about posting ... nothing?

Just as long as everyone else joins in. I haven't exactly enjoyed twenty-odd pages of links to stories of dead people. I can do without twenty more.
If it's wearing on you that much, you might consider finding something else to do with your free time.
Posts: 2040 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Doc Tor, does it ever occur to you, I mean like EVER, that if this many people are reacting to what you say in a certain way -- people from multiple different countries with very different social climates -- then maybe you ought to stop and take stock and see if what you're saying is really what you mean to be saying? If you're really coming across as saying what you want to be heard as saying?

The crickets say, "No. He has never engaged in self-introspection about the things he posts that make other people react strongly."

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63427 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

So given that I understand that, have you anything else here?

If you have the capacity to understand the why of it, then you can begin to understand part of the American gun problem. Re-read Leaf's post and perhaps you can begin to understand other factors. I have hopes for you yet, overly optimistic though they may be.
Yes. There are other factors. I'm reasonably well-read, so I do understand that, in part at least.

What strikes me is how close your Purg-sounding acknowledgement that the current status quo of gun control requires the "tacit approval of the affected" is to my own view, however it might be expressed.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps due to my multiple certifications as a Horrible Person™, I find myself tending to interpret comments about "you people" and "what the fuck is wrong with you" as amusingly flame-engulfed prods to tender areas. Because there's a painful kernel of truth. Because humans are, on the whole, stupid and shitty, and very slow to improve as a general class.

So my own personal "ouch" coupled with "touché" involves accepting the burning kernel, then proceeding with whatever direction seems to have the most utility. In the depressing morass of apparent futility, struggling is at least better than giving up.

But, it seems to me that Doc Tor has singed the participants here more than the general threshold for discussion. Thereby rightly getting proportional heat reflected back at him. His unwillingness to acknowledge how Horrible™ he has been seems like a missed opportunity to me, or a sign that he's gotten defensive beyond his own ability to conduct discourse.

Fuck I love Hell. The visceral meta-truths gush out of us with most of us oblivious to them.

Please, do go on everybody.

Posts: 15215 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

What strikes me is how close your Purg-sounding acknowledgement that the current status quo of gun control requires the "tacit approval of the affected" is to my own view, however it might be expressed.

See that bit I left in bold? Yeah? That bit is important.
So, kinda what Rook said, in a less long-winded way.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(To lilbuddha)... Because you didn't actually say anything about "the tacit approval of the affected" you said people who aren't actively working for change are contributing to the problem. The reason nobody swooped in to challenge that is that there is nothing to challenge-- it is simply true. American gun control advocates would cheer you and thank you for saying it.

What Doc is saying is very different.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If you treat a gun like you treat bleach, then you're doing it wrong.

You know what, as far as I was concerned that appeared to be exactly what people were saying when the subject of bleach and power tools came up. The vast majority of people consider it reasonable and sensible to store dangerous chemicals in a manner that prevents children accessing them - even to the extent of inconveniencing those who don't have children by putting "child proof" caps on the bottles (in scare quotes because, generally, children can still open them).

The point being made was that there is a small, highly vocal and politically influential group in the US who seem to be saying that their right to carry a gun everywhere they go means that even treating a gun like bleach is too restrictive of their rights. Compared to that treating a gun like bleach, by say storing it somewhere out of reach, would at least be an improvement on leaving them sliding around the floor of the car.

Of course, everyone here is calling for more than that. To treat guns as something that is a) more dangerous than bleach and b) of less use in the home. And, therefore be even more restrictive than treating them like bleach.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32255 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

What strikes me is how close your Purg-sounding acknowledgement that the current status quo of gun control requires the "tacit approval of the affected" is to my own view, however it might be expressed.

See that bit I left in bold? Yeah? That bit is important.
So, kinda what Rook said, in a less long-winded way.

Have you never looked at the turkey-like masses voting for Christmas, if they could bother their arses voting at all, and thought "What the fuck is wrong with you people?"

Of course you have. Even if you're a living saint (and you're not: you're as priggish and self-righteous and stubborn as the rest of us) you'll have thought that. Even if you repented straight afterwards, you know you'll do it again when the next round of elections turns up and the candidates supported by the gun lobby spiel out their rhetoric and get enough stupid people to vote for them to claim their position, relying on the rest not to turn out.

You can dress it up as "tacit approval of the affected". May be you wouldn't go up to them and actually say "WTF dude? You didn't vote! This is your fault!" But you'll be thinking it.

Enough people in the UK voted for the Tories (about 36% of the electorate) to scrape them a majority. I'm thinking it all the fucking time.

If it's my tone you're actually arguing with, go and open yet another gun thread in Purg. I'll be civil and make all the same points without the industrial language. But while you're posting in a thread called "Fucking guns" in Hell... Guns. Their supporters. Their tacit enablers. Fuck 'em.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9019 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
May be you wouldn't go up to them and actually say "WTF dude? You didn't vote! This is your fault!" But you'll be thinking it.

Oh no, I say that. But I say it to the responsible groups, not to "you people."
I'm far from a nice person, but that much of a tool I'm not.
quote:

Enough people in the UK voted for the Tories (about 36% of the electorate) to scrape them a majority. I'm thinking it all the fucking time.

If all you are doing is thinking about it, you are part of the problem.
quote:

If it's my tone you're actually arguing with,

For now I'm going to stay right here, aiming my boot at your backside, hoping to kick your grey matter up out of your arse and back to where it belongs.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jesus, are you desperate enough to paint the likes of lilbuddha as delicate? She's complaining about your accuracy, lack of, not your fucking tone.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35070 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So, you know, I’m not telling you how you should react. Getting angry, screaming and crying is what normal, decent people do when presented with such a litany of disasters. I have to read each and every one of these, check the links, read more.

...so...because your hostly duties require you to do all that, you're punishing American Shipmates for living in a country with a serious problem?

I've never envied the hosts having to read all our posts. I'm grateful for your and their work. And when a thread is about a difficult topic, it must be very stressful, sometimes traumatic, for you.

But kicking us, over and over, when we've explained, over and over, how and why things are, how people have tried to changed things and how difficult it is,...only hurts everyone, including you, I think.

It's one thing to be Hellish. It's another to go after American Shipmates and our country, repeatedly, despite our explanations and displayed feelings.

Maybe you can find another way to cope with the stress? 'Cause this sure isn't working.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18392 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

 - Posted      Profile for Ariston   Author's homepage   Email Ariston   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I've never envied the hosts having to read all our posts. I'm grateful for your and their work. And when a thread is about a difficult topic, it must be very stressful, sometimes traumatic, for you.

But kicking us, over and over, when we've explained, over and over, how and why things are, how people have tried to changed things and how difficult it is,...only hurts everyone, including you, I think.

It's one thing to be Hellish. It's another to go after American Shipmates and our country, repeatedly, despite our explanations and displayed feelings.

All I'm saying is that there's a reason why I've stayed out of this exchange up 'till now. I've protested and rallied against gun violence. I've voted in politicos who pledged to help pass sensible laws. I've even posted a few things on this here board, hoping that, just maybe, it might paint a bit of a picture to those wondering why Us Peoples can't get our backwards hick asses in gear.

Fuck it. We People tried. The Enlightened aren't listening. May as well keep working here at home.

[ 01. May 2016, 05:36: Message edited by: Ariston ]

--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6842 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It'a all very well saying the UK has fixed it, but we're just lucky the quirks in our history didn't incorporate the rights to bear arms. We've got a pretty horrible inner city gang culture and it's not going away.

I have worked one-to-one in the community with a connected teenager. Two other students from the same area and involved in the same gang are currently inside, one for 18 years for ABH probably instigated by this connected youngster's brother and cousin. The cousin is also currently incarcerated at Her Majesty's Pleasure. There's a reason we're required to carry personal alarms working in the community.

[tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Enough people in the UK voted for the Tories (about 36% of the electorate) to scrape them a majority.

Just because this irritates me so much, it was 24% of the electorate voted for the Tories, 36% of the 66% that voted. More people didn't bother to turn out than voted the NHS destroying bastards in. Bloody difficult not to enable in a broken election system.

38 Degrees had a big campaign before the last general election to get more people to vote as they had a theory that the additional 34% would make a difference. But you can see how well that worked. It won't get any better as the most recent changes to the voter registration system has made it harder to register and persuade people to vote.

(I did turn out and, no, I didn't vote for the Conservatives. It didn't make a spit of difference. My local Tory MP was voted in with an increased majority.)[/tangent]

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13684 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

 - Posted      Profile for mdijon     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If it's my tone you're actually arguing with

"You people" is a phrase often used by racists. I expect many of them think it's simply a question of tone when they get called on it.


--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It'a all very well saying the UK has fixed it, but we're just lucky the quirks in our history didn't incorporate the rights to bear arms.

IMO, it is not simply that. The UK was settled well before the advent of mass produced, easily available firearms. Taming the wilderness, fighting hostile natives and outlaws is someone else's mythos.* A mythos used by gun manufacturers and 2nd amendment masturbators. Neither the real or imagined history in the UK is tied to the gun in anywhere close to the same way.


*Myth not history as most Americans moved from settled cities in the east to settled cities in the west. The pioneer was always the minority exception.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17373 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  ...  47  48  49 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools