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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Just another day in America.
The local sheriff has gone on air to recommend that other members of the extended Rhoden family arm themselves.
Like guns were any help to the eight people who were ambushed and shot. Not that I've read anything about the victims owning guns, but when a family has a half million dollars worth of illegal marijuana growing in the yard, a group of roosters in separate cages, four coon hounds, a wolf hybrid, and assorted pit bulls, I'm inclined to make that assumption.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It does look as though those shootings were somehow related to the criminal activities of some of the victims. Although a tragedy, especially as I would be surprised if at least some of the victims weren't directly involved in whatever the family business was (and, the baby who will grow up without mom certainly is innocent), it doesn't seem to fall into the same avoidable category of many mass shootings.
Or, the latest accidental shooting by a young child. If, as the BBC article suggests, the gun belonged to the security guard father then why was it even in the car? Surely, it could have been kept at work for him to check out of a locked cupboard at the start of his shift, and checked back in at the end. And, even if he had to supply his own gun (and, hence, legitimately transport it in his car) then surely he'd have had enough training to know not to transport it loaded and to store it somewhere out of reach.
It seems to reflect a complacency about guns, an attitude that these dangerous tools are everyday items and can be tossed on the seat of the car when you get in along with the rest of the junk that most of us find accumulating in the car. Would that security guard faced any charges if his car (with the gun floating around loose inside) was stolen and the gun subsequently used in a crime?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If, as the BBC article suggests, the gun belonged to the security guard father then why was it even in the car?
Stupidity.
It doesn't take "training" to know that you should keep small children and dangerous objects separated. It's not just a gun thing, either - knives, power tools, medication and so on are all dangerous, and you shouldn't let little children near any of them.
There's nothing in particular wrong with having dangerous stuff in the back of a car (except for the theft risk, but let's ignore that for the moment), and there's nothing wrong with having a child in the back of your car - it just can't be the same car at the same time.
This doesn't require training - it just requires thinking.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
...There's nothing in particular wrong with having dangerous stuff in the back of a car (except for the theft risk, but let's ignore that for the moment), and there's nothing wrong with having a child in the back of your car - it just can't be the same car at the same time.
This doesn't require training - it just requires thinking.
But a change in culture to understand how dangerous and undesirable widespread casual ownership of guns would help.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The weapon was not originally in the back with the child, it was under the front seat. It slid into the back.
Training could well have helped. It actually does help shore up areas where reliance on reasoning might fail.
However culture is an important culprit, the casual acceptance of weaponry is definitely a factor.
Good luck changing that.
[ 28. April 2016, 09:28: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
This week has seen observance of the massacre at Port Arthur 20 years ago, when some 35 people were killed. The revulsion following that led directly and rapidly to laws in each state and territory very strictly controlling possession of firearms, and setting out how they are to be stored, carried and accounted for; laws passed with overwhelming popular support. I appreciate the US background, with the particular interpretation on the right to bear arms, but do not see how that would prevent registration and storage provisions.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I was at Port Arthur 20 years ago when this tragedy happened. It was traumatic for all concerned and in many ways today's remembrance ceremonies have dredged all the agony up again (at least for me). I didn't go to today's memorial-it is all still too painful. I have heard it said that we tend to overdo the debriefing and counselling and that many people do better after such events by being taken into the care of loving families and friends rather than professionals.
I am very grateful for Prime Minister John Howard's quick action on gun control in response to the carnage at Port Arthur which has prevented a recurrence. May those who were killed rest in peace and their families know God's love.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
The security guard was not the children's father, but the mother's boyfriend. It was his car and she had borrowed it. He may have said, "Sure," to her request without remembering that he kept his holster and gun under the front seat. He may not have even known that she would be taking her child with her. Yes, he was too casual about his gun, but he can probably be excused for not keeping his car child-safe when he didn't have any.
The Rhoden family in Ohio is being reported as frequently getting in fights. A few months ago the 16 and 20 year-old took a dozen friends and went to someone's house where they beat up the son and father over a demolition derby dispute.
It's beginning to look like a live by the sword, die by the sword, situation to some extent. I can even believe the babies may be better off growing up in families that don't teach criminal pursuits and violence as everyday activities. No one deserves to die the way they did, but when men and women* chose to embrace and admire that sort of life, they should be aware that it doesn't always end in something to brag about on Monday morning.
*Don't think for one minute that the women who died were innocent bystanders. They chose to have sex and children with these men because they thought all the drugs and fights were sexy. The matriarch taught her sons to "stand up for themselves," meaning beat up the little kid who took your toy from day one.
I grew up in the middle of this Appalachian mindset with Hatfields in my class and McCoys across the state line. I had girls trying to pick fights with me just for being in the bathroom combing my hair when they came in. The boys loved to fight and the girls loved the boys who won the fights. Fortunately that was before drugs came along and made it all worse, but there are similarities there with the moonshiners who didn't think the government had the right to tell them what to do on their land and the marijuana growers now.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In this two year-old shooting his mommy, the news report said it was through the front seat. I guess that means the car is still drivable. That's something anyway. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Training could well have helped. It actually does help shore up areas where reliance on reasoning might fail.
I think my point is that the need to keep them out of the reach of small children is not a unique property of guns - it's something that is shared with other dangerous tools, poisons, small magnets and so on.
In other words, "gun training" is the wrong solution to this problem - what is needed is child-rearing training. (Note also that the story only makes sense if the child wasn't restrained in the back of the car, which is also a significant risk...)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Its not a given that the child had not been placed in a car seat with suitable restraint. Most child seats have harnesses that undo at a central point and they're made that way so that if there is an accident it is easy for rescuers to get the child out. However, it also makes it simple for many children to work out how to release themselves from their car seat: my own children did that and so we had to work out a reward system (in other words, suitable bribe) to get them to leave the harness secured.
But back to the gun: even if the boyfriend didn't expect there to be a child in his car, what on earth was he doing leaving a weapon in the car without it being locked in the glove compartment? That is simple negligence.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Note also that the story only makes sense if the child wasn't restrained in the back of the car, which is also a significant risk...
Certainly the earlier story from Florida stated that the child unbuckled himself to get the gun which had slid back under the front seat. Since the report I've seen in this case didn't mention where the gun was, it's possible the gun was somewhere accessible to a restrained child. But, you may have seen other accounts than me which clarify things on that regard.
But, even if there was a justifiable reason to have the gun in the car in the first place it should have been secured (either in the glove pocket up front, or in the trunk), and probably unloaded as well. Even if you're not expecting children in the car, that's the sort of thing that should be habit for any gun owner. Just like it's habit to put away the power tools when the job is done, to put the medicines back in the top cabinet, the bleach somewhere safe and so on.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Training could well have helped. It actually does help shore up areas where reliance on reasoning might fail.
I think my point is that the need to keep them out of the reach of small children is not a unique property of guns - it's something that is shared with other dangerous tools, poisons, small magnets and so on.
In other words, "gun training" is the wrong solution to this problem - what is needed is child-rearing training. (Note also that the story only makes sense if the child wasn't restrained in the back of the car, which is also a significant risk...)
Part of proper training is storage to prevent unauthorised and accidental usage. Parenting might also be part of the problem, but the BBC article I read did not give enough detail to make that inference.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't see that it's an either/or. You can't exactly say, "Parents should know to keep dangerous things away from their kids, so there's no point in putting warnings on bleach bottles." That's the rough equivalent of saying "Parents should know to keep dangerous things away from their kids, so there's no point in putting that information into a weapon safety training course."
It's rather passing the buck to say that people teaching somebody to be safe can leave parts out, because child safety is something they should be getting from some other source. No, they should be getting it from EVERY source.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
It's amusing to spout about how weapons should be stored, considering that one of the central ideals of the paranoid gun culture is the apparently profound need to be able to protect one's self in an emergency. There is no reconciling sensible gun ownership with the visceral intent of a huge slice of gun culture.
"Go ahead, punk - wait while I recover my ammunition from its separate and secure storage." fits about as well as imagining cowboys riding with lockboxes to avoid unintentional use of their revolvers. Pity that more people are unable to parse that their ideals are entirely fantasy, and that the repercussions of their fear-based macho urges makes their society palpably worse.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't see that it's an either/or.
It isn't either or. In general it is both, but in this specific case, we can see that proper gun care was not followed but I've not seen enough information to know if parenting was also at fault.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
It's amusing to spout about how weapons should be stored, considering that one of the central ideals of the paranoid gun culture is the apparently profound need to be able to protect one's self in an emergency. There is no reconciling sensible gun ownership with the visceral intent of a huge slice of gun culture.
"Go ahead, punk - wait while I recover my ammunition from its separate and secure storage." fits about as well as imagining cowboys riding with lockboxes to avoid unintentional use of their revolvers. Pity that more people are unable to parse that their ideals are entirely fantasy, and that the repercussions of their fear-based macho urges makes their society palpably worse.
I don't disagree with this as a general statement. In this case, the weapon was part of the owners job. He might well have the mentality you speak of, or he could just be careless. Given that he is a security guard in America, nearly complete lack of training is not an over reaching assumption.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's rather passing the buck to say that people teaching somebody to be safe can leave parts out, because child safety is something they should be getting from some other source. No, they should be getting it from EVERY source.
I agree that "keep guns away from small children" is an entirely sensible thing to put in a gun safety course. Also "keep children away from power tools" in a machinist's class and so on. Probably nobody teaches a "household bleach" safety class.
But I think that looking at this as a failure of gun safety is insufficient. The root cause is that people responsible for the safety of a small child placed that child in an unsafe environment without evaluating the hazards. That, right there, is a parenting failure. Two-year-olds do not evaluate their own hazards reliably - parents or other responsible adults have to do it for them.
Sure - if the gun was stored sensibly, the child wouldn't have been able to get it. In which case, it might have been the drugs, or the medication, or some other dangerous item lying around the car.
There is, I think, one set of circumstances in which this is entirely a gun issue and not a parenting issue: if you imagine that the mother and boyfriend are assiduous at keeping the child away from dangerous items, but didn't consider the handgun to be a dangerous item.
I can have a bathroom in my house with all kinds of dangerous chemicals lying around in it, and that's just fine - I don't have to lock things up on the off-chance that a small child might teleport into my bathroom. If I invite a small child into my house, however, I must make the bathroom safe, because the child is guaranteed to want to use it.
Similarly, if I keep my car locked & parked in a secure location (in the garage, say), then having a gun lying around on its floor, whilst a bad idea, isn't completely horrible. Until I let someone put a child in it.
(A loaded gun sliding around in the bottom of a car in motion could be a safety problem anyway, if there's any chance that the gun could catch on something in its travels around the car floor and get fired. And there probably is such a chance.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
And in any case if it's sliding around under the seat, it would lead to just as bad a case of "hold on while I find my gun".
On the other hand if he had the sense to only be relying on it when in a controlled situation, why was it loaded (and off safety)? Actually what is the procedures on that, I guess he needs it chambered when on duty (or at least some people do) should that just be an expense.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
So a two year old shoots his mother dead with a legally held firearm, and you're discussing the finer points of where to put the bleach.
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a two year old shoots his mother dead with a legally held firearm, and you're discussing the finer points of where to put the bleach.
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
Rook is correct in that the primary cause is the complete mental attitude Americans have towards guns. But just as mental is thinking they will ever change. If Sandy Hook, Columbine and the rest haven't triggered a change, what the fuck can? So, yes, I could wail and gnash my teeth about the horror of this and all the others that happen regularly and don't make the international news. But what does that help?
I view gun safety training like a needle exchange programme: if the daft bastards are not going to try to curb the madness, maybe this can prevent a few deaths.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
It's amusing to spout about how weapons should be stored, considering that one of the central ideals of the paranoid gun culture is the apparently profound need to be able to protect one's self in an emergency. There is no reconciling sensible gun ownership with the visceral intent of a huge slice of gun culture.
"Go ahead, punk - wait while I recover my ammunition from its separate and secure storage." fits about as well as imagining cowboys riding with lockboxes to avoid unintentional use of their revolvers. Pity that more people are unable to parse that their ideals are entirely fantasy, and that the repercussions of their fear-based macho urges makes their society palpably worse.
As I understand it, it is possible to make guns that will only fire for one person. Some kind of biometrics that identifies whose hand is holding it. This would exactly square that circle -- you could have your gun lying in the middle of the daycare and nobody would be able to shoot anybody because they're not you. But I have also read that the gun lobby is not at all happy with the existence of these guns, let alone making laws requiring them. And certainly the gun nuts aren't rushing out to protect their families and loved ones by purchasing them. Which speaks volumes about the gun nuts, I think.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a two year old shoots his mother dead with a legally held firearm, and you're discussing the finer points of where to put the bleach.
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
We're trying to look at larger patterns and causes, which is generally a good way to go about solving problems, or at least understanding them and understanding the thinking of the people involved. Rather, say, than looking just at the exigencies of one single incident, which your comment seems to be saying is all you want to do. If you think differences in how one protects one's child from different kinds of hazards, and in particular how one treats guns as not being the hazardous substances that they clearly are, isn't important, I'm not sure that this conversation is for you.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I view gun safety training like a needle exchange programme: if the daft bastards are not going to try to curb the madness, maybe this can prevent a few deaths.
Yes, good analogy. Harm reduction is always a good idea where harm elimination is not possible.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
If you go down to Pennsylvania, make sure you don't sit in somebody else's seat. They may just shoot you dead on the spot, as the good Lord would want them to.
"This is how people will know you are my disciples: That you argue over trivialities and murder those who annoy you" - The gospel according to the American pro gun lobby
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Rather, say, than looking just at the exigencies of one single incident, which your comment seems to be saying is all you want to do.
This thread is 24 pages long. It's not me who looks at it, one incident at a time, and opines whether if X had happened instead of Y, then no one would have died.
So much death. So much loss. And yet goes on, page after page after page. So, it's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So much death. So much loss. And yet goes on, page after page after page. So, it's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
That's the hilariously impossible part. Imagine you had to move to the US - for whatever narrative-expedient you want to use - and suddenly you find yourself one of "you people". What the fuck do you do?
Wail for pages on a discussion board, apparently, with no real effect. Perhaps also try to be persuasive with your fellow humans, also with no real effect.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm over for a few days in July. I shall be deploying my lament from a public platform, and gather the responses in the bar afterwards.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So much death. So much loss. And yet goes on, page after page after page. So, it's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
That's the hilariously impossible part. Imagine you had to move to the US - for whatever narrative-expedient you want to use - and suddenly you find yourself one of "you people". What the fuck do you do?
Wail for pages on a discussion board, apparently, with no real effect. Perhaps also try to be persuasive with your fellow humans, also with no real effect.
Was chatting with a couple yesterday that had an intereresting, grassroots idea to impact public opinion. I encouraged them to check out the Ship, because I naively thought You British. People would be encouraged to hear evidence that American folk are trying to come up with creative solutions to a baffling problem, but if they have and they come across this tired " you people" shit, they will doubtless move on to a venue where it is not assumed that they are incurably stupid and evil, based on the place they were born.
You British people's insistance on equating "you people" with those who promote gun culture rather than the victims of it is insufferably smug, and despite the protests of concern, it has a satisfied, if not actively gleeful, quality to it. The death of a two year old becomes an excuse to milk that cutesy " you people" line. Wow, you must be proud. What a score for your nation-- a dead kid became one more reason you get to say, "Everything that isn't British sucks."
The two year old is " you people," asshole. The kids that got mowed down in Colombine and Sandy Hook are " you people," as are the teachers that placed themselves in the paths of shooters to protect kids, and the parents who ran to the media begging for people to pay attention to what was happening to their "you people" kids. The preschoolers I teach who reflexively run away from the classroom windows when a car backfires or someone drops a book too hard, the teachers who have added " hide from the gun man" drills to earthquake and fire drills-- all "you people."
You want to come down to Hunter's Point and tell a grandmother who has seen her grandson shot while walking home that you obviously have more outrage about American gun violence than she does, because she hasn't "done anything about it" yet? That American gun violence somehow impacts you more than it does her and her neighbors? Because as she is American you are going to assume she is part of the problem until she gives a satisfactory recounting of What She's Done About It? And tell her to her face ( as someone I rapidly defriended on FB recently did) that the rest of the world is just waiting for " you people" to get it over with and just kill each other off?
Presumably so that the right sort of people can take over the resulting glut of real estate.
You don't give a fuck about the world we live in, you just get off on feeling superior. Shove your phony ass "concern".
[ 29. April 2016, 17:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
I'm a Brit. There's fuck-all I can do about the American obsession with gun-ownership. To be honest there's fuck-all any non-American can do about it. If you'd rather we didn't mention it, then move the thread to DH where it's easier for you to ignore.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh so you don't like that I attached one person's attitude to all British opinion? I agree, that is a bullshit thing to do.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
I'm a Brit. There's fuck-all I can do about the American obsession with gun-ownership. To be honest there's fuck-all any non-American can do about it. If you'd rather we didn't mention it, then move the thread to DH where it's easier for you to ignore.
She didn't say don't discuss gun violence, nor even the criticise tone in which it is discussed. She is complaining about painting an entire, varied nation with a single brush.
And though I think the responsibility does indeed carry beyond the 2nd amendment nutters and gun-lobby puppets, the fact that Americans suffer the violence and many also wish change should not be ignored.
But, that might well be too nuanced a concept for you.
May I suggest you kindly fuck off back to writing into the Daily Mail.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm specifically complaining that we the You People are fucking dying, and rarely do I see this discussion being approached from that end.
Understand my perspective is as an American educator who has spent a good deal of my career working in extremely low income, gang- saturated areas. It's kind of in my face every day, If it's true of me, then that goes about 100x for the parents I serve. "Just kill each other off?" It's fucking happening right under my nose. I hear those comments and I just go Wolverine.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, you've got Australia, who collectively grasped the nettle after one massacre too many. Those people sorted themselves the fuck out.
Or the UK. We people sorted ourselves the fuck out.
This isn't to say that Brits or Aussies are any less violent than Americans. Just that we don't tend to shoot the shit out of each other with legally held guns.
So, again, a genuine question. Why can't you people sort yourselves out?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
So, that is what you would say to the grandmother I mentioned. And thank you for confirming that this is really about preening for you.
Answer RooK's very apt question. If you had to live here, what would you do?
Otherwise the obvious answer I have is Don't You Think We Are Trying To Fucking Figure That Out?
[ 29. April 2016, 17:51: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Actually, you really want to know what I specifically am doing about gun violence in America?
I work in an area with significant gang prescence. I am fairly sure some of my students have "banger" parents. As an ongoing substitute, I am freed from paperwork duties to mostly focus on socialization and conflict resolution. I support the school policy forbidding gun play ( in these schools you have to-- it escalates brutally fast) I explain to the ( mainly) boys involved that we don't do guns because it makes big fights, and that guns make some kids scared and at our school we want kids to feel safe, I kneel down on the playground and seperate kids who are jamming their thumbs in each other's eyes and teach them how to convert their anger to words, I teach them how to negotiate with their peers rather than disputing with them, and when two four year old boys have a five minute argument, without a single blow struck or a single name called, and resolve the problem themselves, I am first on deck to applaud them.
I steer kids toward activities and experiences that encourage community and cooperation, and teach them to walk away from fights rather than escalating them-- that fights have to end some time, and deciding to end a fight is a strong, brave, grown up thing to do. I do this for hours and hours, every fucking day, to the point of exhaustion. I am probably one of the few people on this thread who have figured out a way to actively devote their life to decreasing violence.You?
It is my understanding that UK preschools are beginning to implement a more academically focused curriculum. This will impact a teacher's ability to do what I am describing, so look forward to increased behavior issues and impulse control based conflict in the next decade or so. And as long as this kind of behavior is restricting itself to lower-income, public school dependent areas, look forward to the PTB turning a blind eye while people get closer and closer to killing each orher off, other than glancing down from Mt Olympus to sighingly wonder what is wrong with Those People.
[ 29. April 2016, 18:17: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So, again, a genuine question. Why can't you people sort yourselves out?
Jesus Christ, Doc Tor. You are either astonishingly tone-deaf or you really are insufferably superior. (I now call this "Doc Tor's Bind.")
If you really wanted your ostensible question answered, you could read through the thread to glean some hints as to why "those" people can't sort themselves out. On the off chance that your question is genuine, let me help you.
- The United States is a very big country. You cannot compare the UK to the US meaningfully; it would make more sense to compare Europe to the US.
- Because it is a very big place, with many subcultures, you should know that some of those places within the US are more poor, violent, and badly governed than others.
- Therefore it is analogous to ask: What are you, Doc Tor, personally doing about the state of the roads in rural Poland? I've heard they're just awful, but obviously you Europeans can't sort yourselves out.
- You do not understand the many and ongoing impacts of slavery and segregation in the US.
- You do not understand American mistrust of government, yes, even within their own democracy.
- You are not getting how much some Americans hate taxes, as a subset of mistrust of government.
Perhaps you should do some reading about these subjects, or ask American Shipmates instead of insulting them?
Let me leave you with a final hint: before you air your opinions in the US and then go to a pub to discuss them, you should practice closer to home first. Go to an Orange Lodge, perhaps somewhere near Portadown, and air your views condemning the Orange March on July 12. I'm sure they will receive your enlightenment with gratitude.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) ( Plants big wet sloppy soul kiss on Leaf.)
Sorry. Impulse control issues.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Ratchet back the outrage. You're not North Korea or Saudi Arabia or Somalia or Syria. You're somewhere with a functioning democratic government.
So yes. It's your problem, collectively. It's individually, but as you point out, you can't do shit individually. Bullets don't respect your property line. It's collectively that you solve this - but you know all this, so why the fuck are you wasting time on some smug, preening Brit who knows jack shit, and not banging on the doors of your law makers and candidates demanding they stop taking bribes from the NRA and put some legislation in place that means something?
If I thought for a moment me shutting up about this would move this process forward even a fraction of an inch, I'd never mention it again.
But I genuinely don't think you get it. I don't think that you realise how the rest of the world looks on and goes 'WTF America?'
(and on the roads in Poland, the UK, as a net contributor to the EU, pays for infrastructure upgrades in former Soviet bloc countries. So that's what the UK is doing. Paying to fix our shit.)
(Also, the rest of the UK looks at Orange Lodges, and goes 'WTF?' We have our problems. We own those problems.
If you're telling me that the US is a badly governed, deeply divided country, awash with guns, you're not telling me anything I don't know already. What I don't know is how you're planning to fix your shit.)
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Forward the New Republic
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Maybe you haven't noticed, but the majority of US Shipmates are gun control advocates, so what makes you so damn certain they are not doing exactly what you are saying they need to do? Fuck, I just mentioned a coffee shop grassroots gun control protest planning, and you act like it never happened. Why are you presuming the largely liberal, politically opinionated segment of America that lands on the Ship hasn't been addressing the issue?
Fuck you. It's hard enough gearing up for battle against our own relatives, community, countrymen without ignorant outsiders blithely claiming what you are strugging to do isn't even taking place. Fucking read some literature about people who are fighting for gun control in America, and then maybe your opinion will have relevance.
And " we don't get it"? Come on. We can't even have a discussion about baked goods around here without some asshole making some snappy "too bad all Americans eat are Twinkies" kind of crack. We don't get how revulsed Europe is by the American gun situation? Leaf's whole post was about how not only do we get it, we have been trying to respond to it every step of the way in the course of this thread. And people like you keep stepping over what we said to say, " Problem not fixed yet, obviously you don't care."
I also note you had fuck all to say about what I do with kids. If you don't think that is ground zero in this fight, you are the one who "doesn't get it."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Kelly, I was moved to say something about your post about your work with children.
Unfortunately, what sauntered out of the mess of my mind was "fight the good fight", which doesn't seem properly inspired in the circumstances.
I may come back after my Marmite sandwich with a better comment about what you are doing.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Okay. You're right. Most US shippies are gun control advocates. Some of you - especially you, Kelly - are at the coal face. I don't have to have these arguments in my community, because those arguments have already been won. It's easy and painless for me, and anyone else whose country has enacted substantive gun control to point at the US and say 'WTF?'
So what response should I have to the annual slaughter of 13000 Americans? Because if you don't think I should give a single fuck, I'll make a note of that for the next time someone shoots up a school.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's easy and painless for me
DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!
quote:
So what response should I have to the annual slaughter of 13000 Americans? Because if you don't think I should give a single fuck, I'll make a note of that for the next time someone shoots up a school.
Simply addressing things with the above idea in mind, as well as the idea that the people you are addressing are finding it hard and painful, will more than suffice.
Put it another way-- I doubt one of those 13000 Americans was one of your nephews. One of mine was.
[ 29. April 2016, 19:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Ratchet back the outrage.
Heal yourself, bitch.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
And it never occurred to you that might cut both ways?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's more despair, not outrage. But thank you for playing.
The Ship is not your mental health professional. Take your despair somewhere appropriate and leave us alone. We're not here to be your fucking emotional blotter. Oh, and you can shove the cutesy sarcasm up your arse also, stoneheart.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Doc Tor, do you think that we don't feel despair and outrage over it too? Two of those killed by guns in this country were my cousins. That was over 16 years ago and I still have dreams about them.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And it never occurred to you that might cut both ways?
Well, yes. Did it occur to you that people move around the world, and may be live in another country, and people who know them and love them want them to stay safe? I'm guessing it has.
Oh, and mousethief? The bridge called. They're missing a troll.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And it never occurred to you that might cut both ways?
Well, yes. Did it occur to you that people move around the world, and may be live in another country, and people who know them and love them want them to stay safe? I'm guessing it has.
Oh, and mousethief? The bridge called. They're missing a troll.
And you're not available? Don't call me. I'm not trolling an entire nation for the behavior of a minority, stoneheart. That'd be you.
And how do you think your trolling here is keeping anybody safe, fuckwit?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Doc Tor, do you think that we don't feel despair and outrage over it too? Two of those killed by guns in this country were my cousins. That was over 16 years ago and I still have dreams about them.
Yes. Of course you can. There's a reason why this thread is called 'Fucking guns' and not 'Lovely guns'. Because, frankly, fuck them.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't have to have these arguments in my community, because those arguments have already been won.
no, those arguments were not won because they never truly existed. The history of guns in the UK is very different to the history in America. Australia would be a little closer, but even there the gun was not part of the mythos as much as America.
BTW, the murder rate in the UK did not have a significant decline following the ban of handguns. In fact, it rose slightly with a spike ~ 2002.
Then there is the gun lobby. Despite the majority of its members supporting some form of gun control, the NRA and their puppets have attempted to double-down instead of listen.
And, Doc Tor, what have you done to stem the attempts to dismantle the NHS? The world will be holding you responsible when finally it dies.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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