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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I agree - I've heard the argument that the empty Cross symbolizes the fact that Christ is Resurrected but this makes no sense. He got taken down because He was dead, and would still have been had He remained so! Seems to confuse the Cross with the empty tomb, which certainly *could* be interpreted as symbolic in this way.
I agree it is discomfort at making a graven image - a cross is one thing as it 'just' a sign, a depiction of a Divine Person might seem to be inviting of idolatry...
Never thought of it that way.
Thanks all for your insights! Youse are a veritable treasure trove of highly specific info. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
What should one do if, while serving a Mass, the priest skips part of it obviously by mistake? Recently, a priest skipped from the peace to communion, leaving out the Lamb of God and Behold the Lamb of God. Should I have whispered instructions to the priest?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
In that particular example, New Yorker, I would have not tried to alert/correct the celebrant, as it would be conceivable that he could be engaging in some intentional, if rather odd, shortening of the liturgy. I assume this was a said mass and therefore these brief phrases would not have taken long at all to include, but still, I wouldn't presume. At the risk of embarrassing the celebrant, I might have innocently asked afterward, " Father, did you intend to omit...?" That might then provide an opportunity to ask if in future he would like you to alert him if he skips over something, or preferably he would volunteer his preference in that regard without your having to ask.
If it were a mass in which you had an MC-like role, I think it would be naturally appropriate to try to alert him to any aberration as soon as it occurred, so that he could try to correct it (though sometimes it's more awkward to try to do a mid-course correction than simply to go on as though nothing has been botched).
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
We had that a church I was attending - poor Father got us to make the general confession of our sins in the usual way, then forgot to absolve us ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
He added it in after the first reading when a server had pointed it out to him!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Years ago, while attending the main Sunday Mass at my parish in Atlanta, a new priest, ordained the day before, skipped the rest of the Eucharistic Prayer after the memorial acclamation. That was a head turner!
In my case I should have said something to the priest afterwards, but frankly I did not because I thought it would embarrass him!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
This happens all the time in my [Lutheran] church. The pastors we have been receiving don't seem to know how to use the Altar Book, and don't seem to be familiar with the order of service*. Most of them seem to have been spoiled in past churches by having 20-page bulletins that have every single word uttered by pastor and congregation printed out. We don't do that, a fact about which they invariably complain.
When a mistake is made, I just "offer it up" and don't say anything.
*Any Catholic or Episcopal priest could easily come into our church and lead a liturgy "cold" using the Altar Book, with about five minutes of prep time to figure out where to set the markers and to set them. It's not exactly rocket science.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Recently, I saw a communicant receive on the tongue with arms outstretched in an orans position. That's a new one on me. Has anyone else ever seen this?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Recently, I saw a communicant receive on the tongue with arms outstretched in an orans position. That's a new one on me. Has anyone else ever seen this?
Not for years. There were a few parishioners from a charismatic prayer group at S George's in Ottawa (now SS Peter & Paul in the schismatic Network) who used to do this.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What should one do if, while serving a Mass, the priest skips part of it obviously by mistake? Recently, a priest skipped from the peace to communion, leaving out the Lamb of God and Behold the Lamb of God. Should I have whispered instructions to the priest?
This happened to me many years ago, when I was serving the late (and highly-respected, indeed revered) Canon Harry Hobbs. For some reason he had looked in my direction when he turned to face the people and I mouthed "the Lamb of God." He then did the missing bits and I do not know if anyone noticed the glitch. Afterward, he quietly thanked me and told me that he yet again learned the lesson which he was given in seminary decades before, to not trust his memory. He said it was not as embarrassing as forgetting the words of the Lord's Prayer halfway through.
However, I think Lietuvos' advice is fairly sound-- redoing bits can often lead to confusion and, if the accident is of a part generally thought to be essential, one hopes that the fervency of the congregation's devotion will supply any defect.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
That's what an assisting priest at one's first two masses is for!
He told me, when i bought it to his attention afterwards, that he hadn't noticed.
To be fair, there were lots of press photographers in the gallery and lots of flashlights going off because she had been the first woman to be priested in England - done alphabetically and her name begins with an 'A'.
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Is it acceptable for a crucifer to vest in tunicle if it is a Procession at a Solemn Office and not a Eucharist?
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Only if the priest is wearing a cope.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
When Common Worship was introduced, there were green congregational booklets, called something like "Morning and Evening Prayer," for main Sunday non-Eucharistic services. Was the service in them the same as used in Common Worship daily prayer, or are they a distinct service?
(The tendency for main Sunday non-Eucharistic services in the C of E seems to be increasingly services of the word, making such books somewhat redundant.)
On an unrelated note, am I right in understanding that "Celebrating Common Prayer" was used mainly by Anglicans, but not published or particularly endorsed by the Church of England or any other Anglican church? Or was it more like the ASB version of "Daily Prayer"? Or somewhere in between? I remember someone saying it was Franciscan, not on this chatroom, but I forget who.
[ 08. October 2012, 21:25: Message edited by: scuffleball ]
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ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
I've been thinking of trying to (re) introduce tunicled crucifers into my parish. Does the person stay in the tunicle the whole service, or do they lay it aside unless they're actually carry the cross? And how often do you use them?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
On an unrelated note, am I right in understanding that "Celebrating Common Prayer" was used mainly by Anglicans, but not published or particularly endorsed by the Church of England or any other Anglican church? Or was it more like the ASB version of "Daily Prayer"? Or somewhere in between? I remember someone saying it was Franciscan, not on this chatroom, but I forget who.
Yes, probably; no; sort of; yes; yes it was.
To clarify: it was produced by the Society of St Francis as a general version of their specifically Franciscan office book, which had remodelled the ASB offices into a more traditional form and included Midday and Night Prayer. So it was the precursor of Common Worship: Daily Prayer which is very similar. It was not an 'official' C of E publication but it was commended in a very positive foreword by none other than Archbishop George Carey.
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
I've been thinking of trying to (re) introduce tunicled crucifers into my parish. Does the person stay in the tunicle the whole service, or do they lay it aside unless they're actually carry the cross? And how often do you use them?
They remain so vested throughout in my experience.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
When Common Worship was introduced, there were green congregational booklets, called something like "Morning and Evening Prayer," for main Sunday non-Eucharistic services. Was the service in them the same as used in Common Worship daily prayer, or are they a distinct service? ...
I think I know the answer to that, but am quite happy to be corrected by someone who actually does.
I think the green books contain Morning and Evening Prayer for Sundays from the Sunday, not the Daily Prayer Common Worship book, i.e. the one with a black cover that also has the Communion Service in it. So they provide a full congregational Service of the Word for Sunday Morning or Evening corresponding to Matins and Evensong, rather than the minimal version you can get away with to comply with the Common Worship rubrics.
What is confusing is that the Daily Prayer book also includes daily offices for Sunday, which are quite different.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
I've been thinking of trying to (re) introduce tunicled crucifers into my parish. Does the person stay in the tunicle the whole service, or do they lay it aside unless they're actually carry the cross? And how often do you use them?
They remain so vested throughout in my experience.
Yes, and I've only ever seen tunicled crucifers on major feast days, and a minority of those at that, even in those parishes that sometimes put their crucifers in tunicles. Having said that, I quite like tunicled crucifers.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
We want to throw them into amice, alb, and tunicle on Christmas, Easter, Corpus Christi, Presentation, the Assumption, Feast of Title.
As it turns out, it's usually just for Christmas and Easter.
It means the crucifer must be an older acolyte, at least a teenager. It also means that there has to be a spare adult acolyte to make sure crucifer gets vested properly. Sometimes there just isn't enough brain-width to get that attended to in addition to everything else.
We are not oversupplied with acolytes, so the vested crucifer has to doff the subdeacon's kit and get back into regular cincture and cotta in order to serve as a torch at offertory and the canon.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Can anyone point me to a simple recipe for baking bread for the Eucharist.
Unleavened, please. Like Nan bread, I guess.
If you like just link to it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Can anyone point me to a simple recipe for baking bread for the Eucharist.
Unleavened, please. Like Nan bread, I guess.
If you like just link to it.
I've made matzoth in the past for Passover meals -- that's probably the kind of thing you want.
The only necessary ingredients are flour and water, but I add a little salt for flavour. Put a few ounces of flour in a mixing bowl, then gradually add water and mix in until you get a nice dough.
Then split it into however many parts you like and roll them out into rounds, then bake them on a baking tray at a fairly low heat (c. 150C) until they start to brown.
If you want to make kosher matzoth, you have to make sure that no more than 18 minutes passes between the addition of the water to the flour and the dough going in the oven. Note also that they are very brittle and you will have lots of crumbs to clear up. (I personally would not use matzoth for the Eucharist for this reason -- it's just not practical to go around the sanctuary on your hands and knees licking up crumbs with your tongue.)
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Hmm
Not sure that would work for us either.
It's more the nan type than the crispy type I had in mind.
[ 11. October 2012, 19:45: Message edited by: Percy B ]
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Hmm
Not sure that would work for us either.
It's more the nan type than the crispy type I had in mind.
Naan bread is leavened (note that unleavened =/= flat).
If you're going for authentic unleavened bread, matzoth is really your only choice -- it is the bread for the Passover meal. If, on the other hand, you just want something vaguely flat and aren't bothered about technicalities, there are dozens of recipes for naan or pitta on the internet: Google is your friend...
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
I do get a little annoyed at times when people say Google is your friend! Sometimes I find it is, sometimes it isn't.
One of the befits of asking here rather than Google is to hear the experience of others and to be able to discuss or ask a little more.
What I am looking for is a simple recipe for communion bread which comes out flat and not crispy and could be given to one or two people to produce for some house Eucharists.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Hmm
Not sure that would work for us either.
It's more the nan type than the crispy type I had in mind.
I would suggest starting with water, adding a little (olive) oil and salt and then gradually add flour. Stir it and keep adding flour to make a dough. Knead for about 5-10 minutes then either with a rolling pin or by hand flatten the dough (around 5mm is about right) and cut into the size that you want. Put in an oven on a baking sheet around 200-220C for around 8-10 minutes, until golden brown. Remove from the oven and transfer to a cooling rack ASAP.
EDIT: I've not made communion bread specifically but I have made a lot of bread of various types, including naan and pitta. I suggest an experiment first.
[ 11. October 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
What I am looking for is a simple recipe for communion bread which comes out flat and not crispy and could be given to one or two people to produce for some house Eucharists.
Percy, if you're looking for something like naan, you might look for recipes for chapati. It is unleavened, and I've known of churches that have used it for communion.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
But IIRC it's chewy and gets caught in the teeth...
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Maybe Mama T
But I have to say the wafers used on a Sunday sometimes stick to the roof of my mouth.
What's wrong with chewy by the way! It is food after all.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
We want to throw them into amice, alb, and tunicle on Christmas, Easter, Corpus Christi, Presentation, the Assumption, Feast of Title.
As it turns out, it's usually just for Christmas and Easter.
It means the crucifer must be an older acolyte, at least a teenager. It also means that there has to be a spare adult acolyte to make sure crucifer gets vested properly. Sometimes there just isn't enough brain-width to get that attended to in addition to everything else.
We are not oversupplied with acolytes, so the vested crucifer has to doff the subdeacon's kit and get back into regular cincture and cotta in order to serve as a torch at offertory and the canon.
This was the main reaosn I asked. At one parish I used to attend, the crucifer removes their tunicle after the gospel and does regular serving duties till the prayer after communion, where they put it back on for the exit. Since at our place, the crucifer has duties at the offertory, I think the only way I'll be able to convince the powers that be to reintroduce it is if we do the same. I can only see us using one a couple times a year, Christmas, our feast of title, and Easter. Possibly Corpus Christi if we're spared the usual summer heat.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Glad to oblige by telling you our custom.
[At our prayer shack, the crucifer has no part in the gospel procession.]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
For those of us who have to be mindful of such considerations, I am trying to work out when the 'invalid matter' alarm bell should go off for bread for the Eucharist. I know that Anglican rubric and custom allow either leavened or unleavened bread, but at what point does adding stuff to it make any claim that it is 'the best and purest wheaten bread that may conveniently be gotten' invalidated?
Given the amount of conditioners, favour enhancers and preservatives in modern shop bought bread I have become a bit loathe to use it for the Eucharist. As we have no-one who can regularly commit to baking loaves for use at the Eucharistic I have reverted to commercially produced waferbread to make sure we are on the safe side. It is also very convenient to just order a couple of boxes from the nearest church supply house as required.
PD
[ 12. October 2012, 04:23: Message edited by: PD ]
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I suspect "conveniently be gotten" is your let out for using shop bought bread. You should just buy Taste The Difference rather than Warburtons.
Realistically though, wafers have a number of advantages, not least if you plan to reserve some of the elements.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
We are looking for the simple recipe so that different people can make it for a weekday fellowship. Some of the people are not particularly articulate and we encourage participation in different ways.
A simple recipe would help
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Percy B
Daisymay has posted a recipe a while ago for what you want.
Jengie
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Back to my blog
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
That's great. Thank you Jengie J
[ 13. October 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: Percy B ]
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
We are looking for the simple recipe so that different people can make it for a weekday fellowship. Some of the people are not particularly articulate and we encourage participation in different ways.
A simple recipe would help
I thought I'd already posted one. Was it unclear?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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recklessrat
Shipmate
# 17243
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Posted
Hi all,
Have noticed recently that whilst my priest genuflects at the breaking of the bread, at Westminster Abbey, the priest usually seems to just bow. Am I right in attributing my priest's genuflection to her Catholic background or might there be some other explanation for the difference?
Thanks!
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stay simple, remain whole
Posts: 80 | From: The Shires | Registered: Jul 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
Hi all,
Have noticed recently that whilst my priest genuflects at the breaking of the bread, at Westminster Abbey, the priest usually seems to just bow. Am I right in attributing my priest's genuflection to her Catholic background or might there be some other explanation for the difference?
Thanks!
Perhaps the other cleric's knees no longer permit him (or perhaps never did) to execute a genuflection. As well, a few Sarum-inlcined clerics prefer a bow, and some of the orthophiles do a profound bow (at the waist). As they are all forms of reverence, I see no problem in this with the possible exception of there being a row of clerics, all reverencing in varying ways, which might confuse people.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Which way is s/he facing at the altar? If it's 'versus populum' it seems to many more reverent to bow, as genuflecting makes one look like a jack-in-a-box. Though why one should do either at the breaking of the bread seems odd. Words of institution, or the end of the eucharistic prayer, more appropriate.
[ 16. October 2012, 21:15: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Well, if the bread's broken at the words of institution, then the genuflection is happening at both the verba and the fraction, right?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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recklessrat
Shipmate
# 17243
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Posted
Both priests were facing towards the congregation.
I must admit I hadn't considered knee/mobility problems, but the Abbey priest doing the bowing appeared to be able to walk/move around without difficulty, although that doesn't mean he doesn't have knee problems of course.
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stay simple, remain whole
Posts: 80 | From: The Shires | Registered: Jul 2012
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by recklessrat:
Both priests were facing towards the congregation.
I must admit I hadn't considered knee/mobility problems, but the Abbey priest doing the bowing appeared to be able to walk/move around without difficulty, although that doesn't mean he doesn't have knee problems of course.
There's a tradition reflected in Percy Dearmer's writings (and is probably much older) in which genuflexions are rare or non-existent and bows are done instead. In many Episcopal churches in the USA, I'd not be surprised to see some people bow and nobody genuflect (except me, maybe). I don't think there's anything peculiar (heh, heh) about the priest at Westminster Abbey bowing.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
For those of us who have to be mindful of such considerations, I am trying to work out when the 'invalid matter' alarm bell should go off for bread for the Eucharist. I know that Anglican rubric and custom allow either leavened or unleavened bread, but at what point does adding stuff to it make any claim that it is 'the best and purest wheaten bread that may conveniently be gotten' invalidated?
Given the amount of conditioners, favour enhancers and preservatives in modern shop bought bread I have become a bit loathe to use it for the Eucharist. As we have no-one who can regularly commit to baking loaves for use at the Eucharistic I have reverted to commercially produced waferbread to make sure we are on the safe side. It is also very convenient to just order a couple of boxes from the nearest church supply house as required.
PD
There are lots of Eucharistic bread recipes and links to sources here
Ecumenical Altar Bread Recipes (OSB sourced)
Account is taken of the various traditions among Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox and Protestants. But since Google is our friend, you can find lots of other recipes online with baking instructions to suit your altar bread needs and preferences.
I bake my own bread from scratch, and I have also baked lots of Eucharistic breads. Both are wonderful things to know and to do. For a parish church, make a devotional project of learning how because familiarity with a baking process, the ingredients and the finished results makes it much easier over time.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am a big advocate of using hosts in the Eucharist, but a reoccurring question hereabouts is how to handle Eucharistic adoration with leavened bread. You can't put a muffin in a monstrance, but how about the asterisk?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
PD, that site that Mr. Rob linked to you looks ok, although a couple of the links are broken. But one in particular, the "Pennsylvania Altar Bread" link, is a recipe I've used before. Make a test batch first, because I found it to be a bit too crumbly. I hate vacuuming up bits of Jesus, so I try to be careful about such things. Anyway, I've tinkered with the recipe a bit, and I've decided that it's the whole wheat flour that's to blame. But I don't really know a good answer, aside from maybe putting in white flour.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I've always said that bread is 90% technique, 10% recipe, but I'm surprised to see a recipe for wheat bread without at least some white flour to hold it all together.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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