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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Don't blink (Dr Who thread)
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Yep, you could be right. I've watched the episode for a second time and am even more impressed with Michelle Gomez's performance. I do find her both likeable and rather sexy ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) . Which may say more about me, but does perhaps say something about her superficial charm as a psychopath.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I don't know if this can even be answered without giving an undue amount of spoilers, but what the heck did the title of the episode have to do with...ummmm....the episode?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
LOL a lot of fans are asking that. In the second prequel, the Saxon guy called the Doctor "magician" repeatedly. Maybe that's a clue?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The second episode is called "The Witch's Familiar". In next week's Radio Times, the listed characters are the Doctor, Colony Sarff, the Boy, Davros, and Daleks. No witch.
Bors, by the way, is the name of one of Arthur's knights, who's life is pure enough for him to see, but not not fully, the mass of the Holy Grail.
I was not aware of the existence of the second prequel, but managed to track down a thumbnail version of it. It looks as though Bors is the apprentice. The Doctor being the magician, since sufficiently advanced science will look like magic.
And I'm not very happy that what is quite useful information about the story has been hidden from large parts of the audience - YouTube copies had been blocked by the BBC, which I have paid for.
[ 22. September 2015, 17:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: I was not aware of the existence of the second prequel
Neither was I. I found out about it by watching a couple of reviews of The Magician's Apprentice on YouTube.
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Penny S: It looks as though Bors is the apprentice.
That's what I thought too. But I'm not seeing many of the usual elements of the Magician's Apprentice trope here. You know, the apprentice wants to be as good as the magician, but he gets in way over his head. Instead, what we've seen Bors do is swing his axe a couple of times at the Doctor, and then he turned out to be a Dalek. And if he's not on the list for next week's episode ...
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I tried to avoid that spoiler in case of people waiting until the Friday broadcast. But Bors' early behaviour doesn't seem to fit with it. And as you say, there's nothing of the out of control broom about. I also thought of Lewis' "The Magician's Nephew" with its between world travel, and making of choices. Doesn't really work, either.
At the moment, my friend and I are running with "and then they woke up and it was all a dream and they went home for tea and went to bed. THE END" (I spent a lot of time trying to persuade children that that didn't work.) Second choice - we're in a different trouserleg of the universe from previous stories and it's going to come together at the end of next week. She may not be in the cast list, but the article about Michelle Gomez in next week's Radio Times does not imply that she is gone.
Things I would like to be told. How he got to 1138 and why. What made him think he was going to die - it's a re-run of Trenzalore, isn't it? How Missy survived.
Things I don't like about NuWho. Secret stuff that only the in-crowd know. Long story arcs. Too many short bits without coherent links. Things without explanation. (Even at the level of reversing the polarity.) Too much backstory. Child Who, child Master/Missy, and now child Davros.
[ 22. September 2015, 19:23: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Episode titles can be misleading. I remember back in the first season of nuWho there was an episode called "The Long Game" which really didn't seem to fit the episode all that well. Oh, you could sort of force it to kind of fit, but not very comfortably. But then when you got to the season finale six weeks later (or however long it was) it tied in with the plot then. In other words, the title was something of a clue to the season arc, not so much the episode itself.
I wonder if something similar is happening here. Maybe we won't understand the title(s) until later on in the season. But one thought that occurred to me was that, if the Doctor is identified with "The Magician" then his "apprentice" could be Clara. For next week, then, could Missy be seen to be "The Witch" and her Familiar...? Could it also be Clara? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That's the way my mind was going, but for that absence from the cast list - though that could be deliberate. And sneaky.
So here's the bit from the Radio Times collection of episode descriptions.
quote:
"The Doctor is trapped. He's a prisoner of the creatures who hate him most in the universe. Between us and him is everything the greatest warrior race in history can throw at us. We, on the other hand, have a pointy stick." There are places the Doctor should never go. Planets where his life would not be worth an hour's purchase. Where he finds himself in the very worst of these, withut his Tardis, or his sonic, and with his best friends murdered in front of his eyes, he has only his wits to keep him alive. And perhaps something else. What is the Doctor's confession? Why did he really leave Gallifrey all those centuries ago? And is it a secret he is willing to give up?
Now that suggests that something happened back in Hartnell times, since the child Davros episode is clearly recent. And Hartnell knew nothing about the Daleks back then. Did he?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: I tried to avoid that spoiler in case of people waiting until the Friday broadcast.
Oops! I didn't really know what the spoiler rules for this thread are, I assumed that someone who hadn't seen the latest episode yet would avoid reading this thread (that's what I do). I'm not sure if I can discuss The Magician's Apprentice here while being completely spoiler free.
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Penny S: At the moment, my friend and I are running with "and then they woke up and it was all a dream and they went home for tea and went to bed. THE END"
£10 in the Organ Fund says that this is all Missy's doing. She seemed so in control when, erm, something happened to her.
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Penny S: She may not be in the cast list, but the article about Michelle Gomez in next week's Radio Times does not imply that she is gone.
I don't think so either.
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Penny S: How he got to 1138 and why.
That one seems easy. With his TARDIS ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) He knew that after he'd left the child on the battlefield, he had to face Devros. But he wanted to spend some time there first to meditate (actually, to procrastinate).
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Penny S: What made him think he was going to die
Not sure. Maybe he's so ashamed by what he has done that he thinks he deserves to die.
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Penny S: it's a re-run of Trenzalore, isn't it?
A bit. In the first prequel, when Ohira said "Your destruction awaits you", I thought "here we go again ..." In fact, during the episode I was rather pleased that it wasn't him who got zapped but, erm, other people. And things.
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Penny S: How Missy survived.
I actually liked that part. I don't remember what she said, but Missy basically handwaved this away. That was great, I don't need an explanation beyond that.
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Penny S: Things I don't like about NuWho. Secret stuff that only the in-crowd know. Long story arcs. Too many short bits without coherent links. Things without explanation. (Even at the level of reversing the polarity.) Too much backstory. Child Who, child Master/Missy, and now child Davros.
I don't have much of a problem with that. In fact, I liked some of the story arcs. But I guess they can be a problem if you can't watch every episode.
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Hedgehog: I wonder if something similar is happening here.
You may be onto something here. That's interesting.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Well, yes, he obviously got to 1138 in the Tardis - but why then and there, and how did he know he was going to have to deal with old dying Davros, and why did he think that was going to lead to his permanent death when he had had all that new life poured into him last Christmas?
I'm looking forward to Osgood coming back. She has an interview in one of the magazines in which she said how interesting it was to turn up at a convention and meet a load of people (including a 64 year old man) dressed as the character!
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: but why then and there
I'm not sure if we need to seek much behind this. He needed a place to chill out and this one seemed nice. (But I could be wrong.)
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Penny S: how did he know he was going to have to deal with old dying Davros, and why did he think that was going to lead to his permanent death
The way I see it is as follows (dozens of spoilers ahead):- Davros was a nice kid
- The Doctor didn't save him on the battlefield
- The handmines got him, but he survived
- His bitterness set in motion a chain of events that led to him creating the Daleks
- So in a sense, the Doctor created the Daleks
This causes so much shame and guilt in the Doctor (he's ultimately responsible for all those deaths) that the only way of finding closure is meeting Davros in such a way that it will lead to his death.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Or, alternatively, he did save child Davros, who still went on to create the darleks. This makes more sense of the episode's ending.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Athrawes: Or, alternatively, he did save child Davros, who still went on to create the darleks. This makes more sense of the episode's ending.
Well, in wibbly wobbly timey wimey ways there are still many things possible. I'm reacting to what I've seen so far.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
It'll be interesting how this turns out. The creation of the Daleks by Davros is a fixed point in time surely. If that's the case, whatever the Doctor does will in some way lead to their creation. Unless he kills him, in which case, he will affect his own time line profoundly. His history is bound up with theirs, and didn't they cause the regenerations of both Hartnell and Tennant (the first one)? It would've been much simpler if Capaldi's Dr had just saved Davros the first time round without assuming that there could only be one person with that name!
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.
Just tell the f@@@ing story! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I got bored with the first episode, especially at the end. We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode. So don't even try and make this some sort of "cliffhanger". And the random going backwards and forwards in time is just emphasising the illogicality of time travel. And we all know that the Doctor will never be able to eliminate Davros (and the Daleks) because that would just be plain silliness.
(Having said that, I really REALLY wish we could have a Dr Who series that DIDN'T include the Daleks OR the Cybermen at some point. Get a bloody imagination, Moffatt!)
Take the "hand mines". A great and scary idea (who would knowingly go out into a muddy field after watching that?) - yet it was really tossed out there and thrown away. It could (and should) have been a really scary moment - a classic Dr Who "hide behind the sofa" moment. But it was lost so that more attention could be given to Moffatt's cleverness.
As you can tell, I wasn't that impressed!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Oscar the Grouch: Just tell the f@@@ing story!
Well, I can understand that after 30-something seasons, there aren't that many simple stories left to tell. Most series give up long before that. So I can understand why Moffat wants to do this.
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Oscar the Grouch: We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode.
Of course we do. But I must say that Moffat put himself in a bit of a bind here, and I'm curious to see how he's going to get out of this one.
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Oscar the Grouch: Take the "hand mines". A great and scary idea (who would knowingly go out into a muddy field after watching that?) - yet it was really tossed out there and thrown away. It could (and should) have been a really scary moment - a classic Dr Who "hide behind the sofa" moment. But it was lost so that more attention could be given to Moffatt's cleverness.
Hmm, when the hands pulled the soldier down, I found that pretty scary. But I'm not sure if there is still a complete story to be told about the handmines. Not in a series that has run for so long already.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.
Just tell the f@@@ing story!
I must admit, loyal fan that I am, that I've been getting a twinge of this recently. Moffat's had a good long stint on the show now, and I really am wondering if it's time for him to do something else. His twisty-windy mind (first evidenced, I think, in the hilarious non-linear storylines of Coupling) is great for the occasional story, and perfect for something like Sherlock, but sometimes it makes watching Doctor Who positively tiring.
One thing I think he's very good at is getting good stuff out of unexpected guest writers. I've been watching a bit of Season 5 recently and I think two of the best stories are Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Doctor, by Simon Nye and Richard Curtis. (Probably the biggest exception to this rule is that dreadful thing by Frank Cottrell Boyce last season.)
But of course, if Moffat goes, then who takes over? I'm a big fan of Mark Gatiss, but I can't really see him in that role. And God preserve us from Chris Chibnall!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I tend to agree that some of the best episodes are those that stand alone, not essentially tied into larger story arcs. Even in the old series, there were sometimes long arcs ("Trial of a Time Lord", "The Key to Time"), but there were many episodes that were just good individual tales.
I sometimes think of "Horror of Fang Rock" as an archetype of Dr. Who. The Doctor and Leela visit a lighthouse off the coast of England in the early 20th Century. Various events occur--a shipwreck, an alien invasion--and at the end, the two of them are the only survivors.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I have to say that I am becoming increasingly tired of Dr Who. Or rather, I am tired of the shenanigans that Moffatt and the writers are doing. I think I like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor, but Moffatt seems so inordinately pleased with his own cleverness that instead of telling a good story, he wraps everything up in bizarre story arcs, where you need to watch and rewatch a whole series before you really make sense of it.
Just tell the f@@@ing story!
I got bored with the first episode, especially at the end. We all know that Clara, the Tardis and even Missy are not going to be written out of the show in the first episode. So don't even try and make this some sort of "cliffhanger". And the random going backwards and forwards in time is just emphasising the illogicality of time travel. And we all know that the Doctor will never be able to eliminate Davros (and the Daleks) because that would just be plain silliness.
(Having said that, I really REALLY wish we could have a Dr Who series that DIDN'T include the Daleks OR the Cybermen at some point. Get a bloody imagination, Moffatt!)
Exactly what I thought. I walked away from the TV half way through the episode and didn't come back.
Oh for the days when the story was just a story, to be wrapped up in one episode (or no more than 4!)
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I like stand-alone stories too (there were some good ones in last season, especially Listen), but I can understand a bit why they do these story arcs.
I have an appreciation of how difficult it is to keep series like this interesting after many seasons. My big example is Season 7 of Star Trek: The Next Generation. It isn't just that the writers ran out of stories to tell, it was also becoming harder and harder to do something new and exciting with these characters. I think this isn't just about writer quality; this is also a natural evolution that happens to these series.
That Dr Who has been able to stave that off for so long is a big achievement. Of course, the fact that the Doctor regenerates and gets new companions helps, but still. Even NuWho reaching Season 9 is pretty amazing.
I have a feeling that the story arcs are also a factor in this. If the writers had stuck with one-off episodes, it's possible that they'd have run out of them by now.
I like stand-alone episodes too, but the story arcs may have helped in Dr Who not becoming Season 7 of ST:TNG.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
On more reflection....
I don't have a problem with story arcs as such, as long as they don't make it impossible to see a single episode without knowing the whole back story. This is a sci-fi programme, not a bloody soap opera.
Part of my annoyance with the first episode is that the story itself is pretty light. There's actually not much there, once you strip away all the froth and flashy baubles. Instead of a story, we get silly gimmicks, like the airplanes freezing in mid air. Why are they doing that? No reason - just to show off and get attention.
I think that part of the problem is that Moffatt has forgotten that Dr Who is, above all else, a sci-fi programme. But that brings with it a requirement to have a certain degree of plausibility. You can't just do whatever you like - no matter how illogical - just so that you can show off and have a flashy moment. Great sci-fi writers have always known this. Take the likes of Asimov or Clarke - they could imagine all sorts of new worlds and strange situations, but they took care not to just create absurdities for the sake of it. There was an attempt to have a rational, sensible basis for it all. I think that the word I am looking for here is "credibility". Something I felt that a lot of recent Dr Who lacks.
As for the argument about running out of ideas - I don't really buy it. The great thing about Dr Who is that you don't have ANY limitations - the universe is your oyster. You can dream up all sorts of new worlds, creatures and situations - you just have to have the imagination.
(I will admit that I am deeply wary about any TV programme or film which relies too much on time travel to tell its story, as such stories quickly become mired in all sorts of logical impossibilities. Once again - go back to the classic sci-fi writers and see how carefully they trod in respects of time travel. But the greatest Dr Who stories have been ones where travelling through space AND time is simply a vehicle for placing the doctor in an interesting situation and seeing how he will deal with it.)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Oscar the Grouch: Instead of a story, we get silly gimmicks, like the airplanes freezing in mid air. Why are they doing that? No reason - just to show off and get attention.
With this I agree. I found that there was too much happening in this episode, and some of it didn't really go anywhere.
I probably would have made the medieval scene shorter (alright you can do the guitar solo but then off you go), dropped the "where is the Doctor?" bit (I found that very ineffective) and wrung more out of the handmines scene. There are ways of making that very scary, rather standard ways perhaps, but effective nonetheless.
quote:
Oscar the Grouch: As for the argument about running out of ideas - I don't really buy it. The great thing about Dr Who is that you don't have ANY limitations - the universe is your oyster. You can dream up all sorts of new worlds, creatures and situations - you just have to have the imagination.
Of course you can. You can bring up a new world and a new monster every week. And some of these will be rather interesting. But a new world and a new monster doth not a new story make. And the human mind is a strange thing: no matter how imaginative you are, after a while they tend to become more of the same.
I think that even for a series as wide in scope as this one, it is much more difficult to come up with interesting stories after all this time than we sometimes imagine it to be. So kudos for the people behind Dr Who that they've mostly managed this so far, perhaps for even longer than might be expected.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I tend to agree that some of the best episodes are those that stand alone, not essentially tied into larger story arcs. Even in the old series, there were sometimes long arcs ("Trial of a Time Lord", "The Key to Time"), but there were many episodes that were just good individual tales.
I sometimes think of "Horror of Fang Rock" as an archetype of Dr. Who. The Doctor and Leela visit a lighthouse off the coast of England in the early 20th Century. Various events occur--a shipwreck, an alien invasion--and at the end, the two of them are the only survivors.
Oddly enough, Horror of Fang Rock wasn't well reviewed at the time. And the writer, Terrance Dicks, admits there are problems with it - he says in the dvd commentary that the only purpose of some of the shipwreck survivors is to get killed one by one, which from a writer's point of view isn't a great reason for a character to be there. But the story has aged remarkably well - it's one of my favourites.
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.) I very much prefer it to Moffat's favourite "everybody lives!"
I think it was the great Robert Holmes who said that "every Doctor Who story should have one great idea - but it doesn't have to be your great idea" - as he gleefully plundered the scripts of the Hammer movies.
There's a lovely simplicity to a lot of the classic stories, especially in the "gothic" period, roughly 1975-78. I think the nearest we've had recently were last year's Mummy on the Orient Express and Listen, both of which were very close to my idea of Doctor Who heaven.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that part of the problem is that Moffatt has forgotten that Dr Who is, above all else, a sci-fi programme.
If Doctor Who is sf, it's not hard sf. There are fluffy cushions which are harder sf than Doctor Who.
Modern Doctor Who hasn't done anything as far from the Asimov style of sf as The Mind Robber. I don't think it's even done anything quite as far from Asimov as Kinda or Enlightenment.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.) I very much prefer it to Moffat's favourite "everybody lives!"
I disagree with this (on average and with exceptions - I think Fang Rock is a classic, for example.)
That said, Moffat's reputation for everybody lives is rather exaggerated.
quote:
There's a lovely simplicity to a lot of the classic stories, especially in the "gothic" period, roughly 1975-78. I think the nearest we've had recently were last year's Mummy on the Orient Express and Listen, both of which were very close to my idea of Doctor Who heaven.
Aside from the mummy iconography, I'm not sure that either of those were similar in style to anything in the gothic period. Even the scary bits are scary in a different way.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)
Warriors From The Deep, perhaps? I forget if literally everybody died, but the body count was high. I seem to recall that, as the TARDIS crew leaves, the Doctor sadly mutters "there should have been another way."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Hmm.
I just got caught up on last week's episode. Over the previous week or so I've been watching the episodes from Series 8 that I liked/was intrigued by enough to keep for a re-watch (for the record: Deep Breath, Listen, The Caretaker, Mummy on the Orient Express, In the Forest of the Night, Dark Water/Death In Heaven).
And having just watched last season's 2-part finale, I guess this suffers a bit in comparison.
I don't like Missy better here. Although Michelle Gomez is never less than excellent, and she gets some fine one-liners, the fact that Missy isn't actually the protagonist means it's all just a bit for show.
And then things like "ending" Missy/Clara/the Tardis just don't feel believable in the first episode of the series. Okay, at least one of those things would never be believable at any point (you can't have a madman without his box), but these days it's nigh on impossible to believe that characters this important would be dispensed with so casually. Remember Rory dying? Okay, so he came back anyway, but it was a big tragic deal when it happened.
Medieval guitar didn't do a lot for me either (although snake-man did). I just guess a lot of things felt tonally a bit off. There were some very nice moments (handmines are fairly awesome, for example) but for me it didn't quite coalesce.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh yes. Favourite moment?
Tom Baker talking about the morality of killing a child. I mean, clearly that was the genesis of this story (ahem) but I'm not a big enough fan to have thought of it before it was quoted. It really hit home.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)
Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?
Pyramids of Mars. It may be the first.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)
Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?
Pyramids of Mars. It may be the first.
O yes! How could I forget Pyramids
And why did you make me remember Warriors? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It wasn't so much the guitar (though I did not "get" the axe joke without research). It was the tank.
How did that get there? (I know it was missing from the house near Beulah Hill with the fish, which is also missing, but that doesn't get it to 1138.)
Still haven't found any reason for that year.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)
Warriors From The Deep, perhaps?
Pyramids of Mars. It may be the first.
The Doctor pretty much leaves everyone to perish in The Myth Makers, and well and truly leaves everyone to die in The Massacre (the clue's in the title).
It is much to be regretted that so much of that section of season 3 is missing, frankly.
[ 26. September 2015, 13:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The Doctor pretty much leaves everyone to perish in The Myth Makers, and well and truly leaves everyone to die in The Massacre (the clue's in the title).
There's at least one character who dies in the source material who doesn't die in The Myth Makers. And it's suggested that there are survivors even among the Hugeunot characters in The Massacre.
quote:
It is much to be regretted that so much of that section of season 3 is missing, frankly.
Agreed.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Well, that was satisfactory. Devious people being devious, the good guy being the good guy, though maybe for the wrong reason.
When they built our lovely mall, Bluewater, there was a wonderful grotto in the food hall, rather Victorian in concept, with dinosaur footprints crossing the pathway from cave wall to cave wall, and a green man, and poetry quotes along the passgeway. I used to say it was more in the spirit of Joseph Paxton than the architecture proposed for the Crystal Palace site, which is required by law to embody that. They have now eradicated it. But when I first went round, on the first day of opening, there were a couple of quotes which had been plastered over by the time I went round again, on the second day. (It was just down from where I lived.)
One of the doomed ones was from T S Eliot. "The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right deed for the wrong reason."
For Clara, many would die. But if he had not done what he did, he would not have been himself.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I quite liked Part 2. Well, I probably liked the very last parts of it the least... the way the whole sewers thing resolved was a bit much, as was the whole power of mercy thing...
But before that Missy got a few more good bits, and the Doctor and his real archenemy made a damn fine pairing.
I rewatched Part 1 before and liked it a bit better as well.
So on the whole, reasonably good, and a few bits of interesting set-up about Gallifrey both past and present.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The set up seems to be for a story arc. Expect Missy to be bach before the last episode.
Please. I like Missy. Especially the pantomime elements. Gasp at the cruelty whist laughing at the same time, like when Clara was pushed down the hole.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
One of the review sites had a quote which seemed to be from advance publicity, referring to the Doctor's greatest temptation - so maybe I was meant to think of Eliot.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Publicity for every series talks about the Doctor's greatest ... something.
Don't read too much into it, it's only advertiseing.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Still think he did it for the wrong reason.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
So if he had killed the young Davros, the events would not have happened anyway. So surely that would have been better?
As it was, it seems that he was constrained to go and save Davros, because of what had happened, which is the problem of time travel of this nature.
I think the rise of the sewers was odd. I am not sure that the old, decaying Daleks would actually have destroyed themselves - that seems somewhat odd and un-dalek-like. But it was fine.
I want to see more hand-mines.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I liked it too. Some interesting twists, and everything tied neatly together.
Looking back, I'm not really sure if having Davros and Missy in the same episode was a good idea. It was interesting to see that "They've been enemies for so long, they're almost friends" worked much better between the Doctor and Devros than with Missy. It seemed a bit like she was playing second violin in this episode, and that's not really her style.
I think this is one of the few two-parters I've seen where the second part was better than the first.
quote:
orfeo: So on the whole, reasonably good, and a few bits of interesting set-up about Gallifrey both past and present.
I find the Confession Dial interesting. I'm sure we're going to see more of that.
quote:
LeRoc: £10 in the Organ Fund says that this is all Missy's doing.
Ha! (Don't worry, I'll still put £10 in the Organ Fund. Is that credit card thing working again?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I don't know if this can even be answered without giving an undue amount of spoilers, but what the heck did the title of the episode have to do with...ummmm....the episode?
The same can be asked about the title of the second episode. The magician's apprentice and the witches familiar would both seem to point to Clara.
Clara, or a version of her have twice been Daleks now and both died and survived. Upcoming episodes include 'The girl who died' and 'the woman who survived.' Is there a connection, or is it another of Moffat's clever games?
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
All of the episode titles this year are in pairs, even the ones that are being advertised as separate stories.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: Still think he did it for the wrong reason.
Sometimes people interpret stories differently. That's why I'm asking, out of curiosity: for what reason do you think he did it? (Did what?)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Robin
Shipmate
# 71
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Posted
Did anyone else notice the Steptoe reference, or was I imagining it?
"Vampiring off your own creations just to eke out your days" (around 17:50). In the voice of Harold Steptoe / Harry H Corbett, particularly the second half of the sentence. Fits the context perfectly.
Robin
Posts: 263 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: May 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I'm still wondering when they will break the great taboos of time travel. Even if you restrict yourself to earth, there are some jolly interesting events they haven't dared visit; notably those of religious significance.
While it would undoubtedly ruffle feathers if the satanic verses were actually the Doctor's mischievous whisperings, I don't think any scriptwriter would have the guts to explore the origins of Islam or portray Mohammad on screen.
But would they ever go back and look at any events from the life of Jesus? It would definitely annoy a lot of people, though I wonder if the topic ever came up they'd just use the "it's time locked" excuse to get out of it.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robin:
Did anyone else notice the Steptoe reference, or was I imagining it?
"Vampiring off your own creations just to eke out your days" (around 17:50). In the voice of Harold Steptoe / Harry H Corbett, particularly the second half of the sentence. Fits the context perfectly.
Speaking of vampire references, Missy's pointy stick comment seems to me to be a reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Take, for example, this line from Season 4 of Buffy, when a rival demon hunter is commenting: "We use the latest in scientific technology and state-of-the-art weaponry, and you, if I understand correctly, poke them with a sharp stick."
And, really, they went waaaaaaaaaay out of their way to have Missy talk about having a pointy stick. It had to be intentional.
Hmmmm, now that I think about it, that Buffy character (Professor Walsh) turned out to be making a hybrid creature (technology and various demon parts), which also fits in with the hybrid Dalek/Time Lord theme. And (back to the Who titles) magicians and witches are far more of a Buffy thing.
Or am I imagining all that. "Humans. Always finding connections in things that aren't there."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The wrong reason was to save one person, knowing that that would lead to many deaths. He said as much.
OTOH, hearing Clara speak of mercy told him that he would be going to have done it. Not sure if that is the right tense. It had been done, therefore he had no choice but to do it.
OYAH, he could not not do it and still be him.
Pity they couldn't have had him keep child Davros away from Skaro until his brain was set on a less psychopathic path.
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Hedgehog said
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The "nobody survives" idea in Fang Rock is actually very rare in Doctor Who. (I'm struggling to call to mind another example, in fact.)
Warriors From The Deep, perhaps? I forget if literally everybody died, but the body count was high. I seem to recall that, as the TARDIS crew leaves, the Doctor sadly mutters "there should have been another way."
I recall 'Warriors from the Deep' was directly followed by 'Revelation of the Daleks' which also has a massive body count.
That was about the point that Michael Grade started to take interest in the series content!
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Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Penny S: The wrong reason was to save one person, knowing that that would lead to many deaths. He said as much.
Hmm, I find this sentence difficult to parse grammatically.
quote:
Penny S: OTOH, hearing Clara speak of mercy told him that he would be going to have done it.
Yes, that's one part of it. But to me, there is more to it than that. The logic of time travel in the Dr Who universe is shaky at best. To me, the possibility when he heard Clara speak of mercy, that this reminded him that this is the right thing to do is definitely in there. (What you said in the OYAH part.)
quote:
Penny S: Not sure if that is the right tense.
Wibbly wobbly timy wimey ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Penny S: Pity they couldn't have had him keep child Davros away from Skaro until his brain was set on a less psychopathic path.
Then history would have been changed in a rather big way.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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