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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Custard clearly feels closer to RT's position and so would reject GF's analysis, some on the Ship would be closer to GF's position and, thus, detest RT's Reform 'spiel'.
On most political and social issues I'd be closer to Giles Fraser than to Richard Turnbull. (I expect taht Mr Turnbull would find me a lot more extreme than Mr Fraser) On most theological or ecclesiological ones I think I'd be between them, maybe nearer the Turnbull side on some, not on others. Normally I'd think of the Fulcrum people as more my crowd than the Reform people. (I know it seems strange, but far from being the International Man of Mystery I might appear to be online, I am in fact the sort of person who reads Anvil and Grove Booklets. I've read bucketloads of them. I've even bought a dozen or two)
But the language they are using here makes me sympathise 100% with Turnbull. Really. The stuff from the newspapers, by Fraser and by the journalists, has completely turned me off them. So far Wycliffe is winning two-nill. And the Secular British Establishment and the Vicar of Putney are making themselves look nasty.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
In the headlines today:
Newspapers always exaggerate stories.
Pope a Catholic.
Yes, but is he a liberal catholic ?
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Ben XVI?
Ask the CDF.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Tyler Durden
Shipmate
# 2996
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Posted
Custard, I'm confused: the BBC report which you said you basically agree with (I think?) didn't seem to be saying anything particularly different (in terms of factual content)to the report in the Church Times or even that in the Grauniad - even if, particularly the latter, was more hostile in tone. So, I'm not clear why some media are 'typicaly exaggerating the story' to the point of fabrication while others who are saying basicallythe same thing you accept!!!!
Have I missed something here? Could you sum up in one sentence what you actually accept/admit is going on at Wycliffe?
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I think Chris Sugden did it well in the BBC report. (The reason I thought it was more balanced is that it allowed someone who has a decent idea of what was going on at Wycliffe to say something.)
quote:
Chris Sugden said:
Richard Turnbull comes from parish ministry and wanted to change the culture of what had been really a sort of free-spirited academic collective in common with all Oxford colleges. I think it is a culture change situation in the institution which is being led by the Council which the chief executive is being asked to take through.
I'd summarise it by saying something like:
The Hall Council and Richard are attempting to change the culture of Wycliffe by strengthening the emphasis on ministerial training, particularly with regard to preaching, while trying to keep both the evangelical breadth and academic strength of Wycliffe.
Whether he succeeds in keeping the academic strength depends on a few factors: 1) getting a good replacement for David Wenham 2) not losing more mainline teaching staff.
Succeeding in keeping the college representative of the breadth of evangelicalism is going to be a lot more difficult after this series of articles. I suspect the only people who will want to come here now will be people with friends here, people who don't pay much attention to the church news, or people who would think that the college becoming a lot more conservative is a good thing.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Sorry - in the interests of balance, I should probably add to my sentence:
"as a result of this shift in emphasis and culture, as well as misunderstandings among the staff, two staff members have resigned internal positions within the college, one of whom later left; this has co-incided with other members of staff leaving for different reasons, though tensions within the college may have been minor contributing factors."
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
though tensions within the college may have been minor contributing factors."
They left seems to be a fact, 'minor' is your spin since you are not a mind reader.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Nightlamp -
As the guy who started this thread, and has stuck with it all the way - what do you think (or suspect) is going on at Wycliffe?
I've no reason to ask beyond personal interest - speaking for myself, I have my suspicions but am no longer so sure as I was earlier.
Ian
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
What I suspect has happened is the council of the college thought they were making a good but brave decision in appointing Turnbull since they seem to have wanted the college to have a more practical emphasis. I do not consider they thought two issues through, the consequences of his conservative theology and his lack of experience in theological education. Turnbull twin aims seem to be are to make the place more conservative i.e. to bring 'liberal' evangelicals back into the fold and for the place to have practical church stuff at it's heart. Both of these objectives are going to face staff resistance. The staff are upset and there seem to be substantial relationship problems to add into the mixture.
Wycliffe seems to have two main problems staff who might want to leave but may find it difficult to do so but any further loss of staff will not look good. Secondly, potential students may well be discouraged from applying to Wycliffe.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
though tensions within the college may have been minor contributing factors."
They left seems to be a fact, 'minor' is your spin since you are not a mind reader.
Given that one of them was invited to do a Q&A session with the students the other week, and answered questions on why they were leaving, it doesn't always take a mind-reader.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Turnbull speaks.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
From Turnbull's Grauniad reply: quote:
I know of no homophobia or misogyny at Wycliffe. If there is any evidence then it must be produced. For Giles to say that I believe 95% of people will "burn in hell" is a misrepresentation when the rest of my sentence, "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them", is excluded.
The difference being? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I'm sorry but this is a smug, presumptuous statement that assumes that people just need to hear the right version of the gospel and suddenly our churches would be overflowing. It assumes that non-attendance is synonymous with unbelief and casts judgement which God alone can make on the hearts of people, not whether they tick Mr Turnbull's list of 6 impossible things to believe before breakfast ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:
Nor does my deputy believe it's "wrong for women to teach men". He believes, as I do, that in our college women can and should teach and preach. There are various views on practices in local churches.
WTF has whether these women are allowed to doing a bit of teaching in our college got to do with whether they have a valid ministry in the Church? To suddenly go into the 3rd person and disassociate himself and his deputy from giving any public statement on whether women should be ordained, let alone lead churches, implicitly suggests they both support resolutions A, B and C. This almost suggests he's still trying to cosy up to Reform by implying he's pro res C, despite Custard saying, and many giving him the benefit of the doubt, though recognising that it's not the case for his deputy, that he supported women's ordination, even if not res A.
I'm disappointed to say his defence comes across as more spin. I want to be pro-Wycliffe, I hold lots of its former student in high esteem, even though I don't agree with them on everything, but Turnbull is not helping its cause. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
We're evangelicals. We don't have an ontological view of ordination, which is why the (very few) evangelical parishes seeking alternative episcopal oversight don't do it for reasons of OoW and don't do it through Resolution C.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
I want to be pro-Wycliffe, I hold lots of its former student in high esteem, even though I don't agree with them on everything, but Turnbull is not helping its cause.
What did he need to do to win you over? Say "Of course Simon is a silly boy for not supporting OoW from the outset, I'll sack him immediately."? What he makes clear is that the VP has been appointed on the understanding that his personal view will not impact the practice of the college, which is, surely, all he can do if he is to make Wycliffe open to all sorts of evangelicals without becoming the thought police.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
He could start by saying "actually, I don't know anything about the spiritual state of the 95% who don't regularly attend church, and I'm not therefore in a position to pronounce on their eternal destination."
Of course he won't, because that's not what he believes. But that's fair enough, because I don't expect someone who believes what Turnbull believes to expect to or want to win me over in that way.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Given that one of them was invited to do a Q&A session with the students the other week, and answered questions on why they were leaving, it doesn't always take a mind-reader.
It doesn't mean they told the whole truth. I have changed jobs and had two reasons the public one and a private one. The public one made everyone feel better including me. The private one was the real reason although there was truth in both.
I guess though it is better to accept the reasons given by the member of staff.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I was disappointed Richard Turnbull didn't explain what changes are being made at Wycliffe, just saying they are trying to make it suitable for the 21st century. That doesn't tell you anything - are we to suppose that those who objected to the changes held the view that it should be unsuitable for the 21st century ?
If as Custard suggested, the aim is to raise the standard of practical training for ministry to the same level as the academic training, it would be better to say so.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Tyler Durden
Shipmate
# 2996
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Posted
I agree with IANJ that it seems disingenuous to say 'I didn't say 95% of people will go to hell... I said 95% of people will go to hell unless the gospel is preached to them and they respoond to it in the appropriate way within the appropriate timescale'. I'm sure even the Grauniad journo knew that Turnbull believe people can be saved. But many people, non-Christian and Christian would still find Turnbull's position offensive - including other evangelicals who think in terms of a 'wider hope' and/or the opportunity of post-mortem salvation. To be fair to Turnbull though, his position is hardly an innovation within evanglicalism. But, bottom line, the Grauniad printed wanted he said/thinks.
As to no homophobia/misogyny: is anyone suggesting Turnbull and Vibert are walking around saying 'Death to fags' and 'Women should be slaves of men cos they're inferior'? Of course not. They say: God loves gays/women and they are equal to heteros/men - its just that the former have to be celibate and the latter can't be senior leaders in the church. This is like Muslim men saying that Muslim women aren't inferior, they just have different God-given roles or teh BNP saying 'We don't hate blacks etc we just don't want them living here/marrying our women' (which is what they do say; they calim they are not racist...)
So, this is a lawyer's statement by Turnbull which insults the intelligence of those to whom it is addressed. The fact is he does believe that most people he's ever met will end up in hell and he does hold views which most people would consider oppressive towards both gay people and women. I'd respect him (and people who share his views) more if they were frank about that.
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
From Turnbull’s letter:
quote:
. Giles referred to Wycliffe "drawing upon a long-standing tradition of evangelical anti-intellectualism", and said "the low esteem in which many evangelicals hold academic inquiry is a function of fear". This comment lacks the very academic rigour the author complains is missing from evangelical scholars. The faculty at Wycliffe has a long record of academic publication, with a regular flow of books and articles and our students winning multiple university prizes.
Fraser’s point about “evangelical anti-intellectualism” would be more accurate if he was talking about the man in the pew. I’m not convinced it applies to academic institutions wholesale.
quote:
For Giles to say that I believe 95% of people will "burn in hell" is a misrepresentation when the rest of my sentence, "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them", is excluded.
This may not be prettily phrased, but it does reflect mainstream Christian teaching.
quote:
Nor does my deputy believe it's "wrong for women to teach men". He believes, as I do, that in our college women can and should teach and preach. There are various views on practices in local churches
This is a statement of a fact surely? Although it is possible for women to be trained for ministry, not all churches will employ them or recognise their ministry as valid. Any collage principal that wasn’t aware of that and didn’t mention it to their students when discussing job prospects would be rather foolish. IIRC, there are studies showing that many of the women who were ordained when the Anglican church first permitted it didn’t end up in paid church ministry but in prison / hospital / voluntary jobs. IMO, this is wrong and the church should be ashamed but that’s a whole other discussion. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Of course, it's a view held by many, arguably including St Paul, that 100% of people will go to hell unless the Gospel is preached to them. Come on everyone, read for comprehension.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Leprechaun, it was the 'as I do' that pi**ed me off in that sentence. Apparently Turnbull is pro OoW to some extent, yet here he implies he's in total agreement with his deputy, suggesting he's disingenuous even to his own wife! Why can't he just talk plain and say, 'I don't believe women should have overall control of a church and my mate thinks they can't even teach men, but we're happy to teach them the skill of preaching and maintain our integrity on these separate points'?
Re pleasing me on the 95% it was the way he pretended there was some noticeable difference in the two statements. I'd rather he was honest and said, 'as a trad/conservative evangelical I think non-church-goers are likely to be unblievers and so will probably go to hell'. That way he's honest but shows he also accepts he doesn't know everything and there might be some element of grace involved in the final decision . Important but subtle differences, and funnily enough more biblical.
[ 01. June 2007, 11:54: Message edited by: I_am_not_Job ]
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Dinghy Sailor,
People don't object to the gospel needing to be preached for people to be saved, it's the assumption that 95% of the population haven't heard it, cos otherwise they would be fashioning their lives in exactly the same way as Turnbull and his friends, and at the very least being regular church goers, that is objectionable. Plus, if you're saying grace ain't biblical (and I've got a meeting in a few minutes so don't have time to proof text it), we really have got fundamental problems with agreeing on what is the main message of Christianity.
[ 01. June 2007, 12:00: Message edited by: I_am_not_Job ]
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I'm a bit puzzled by Turnball's 95% comment (ie "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them"). He seems to assume that only 5% of the population have heard "the gospel", which makes me wonder how he defines it....
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
I'm fairly comfortable with what Richard Turnbull 'believes', not that I entirely agree with him, but he's entitled to think what he wants to think. I'm also fairly comfortable that his 'thought life' hasn't impacted that much on the general culture at Wycliffe (yet ), and so clearly whatever he does believe isn't stopping certain people from attending and being trained at Wycliffe.
The thing that is an embarrassment (for him) is how he clearly 'played to the floor' at the Reform conference ('nassssty liberals, we haaaaatesssss them', 'most people are going to Hell', 'Penal Substitutionary atonement is the mark of a TRUE evangelical/Christian' - they loves that sort of thing does them Reform people....) AND GOT CAUGHT DOING IT!
I've no doubt that all his Guardian letters/Church times articles etc..etc..will be full of nice fluffy stuff, nor that Wycliffe will continue to admit a broad crowd from amongst all sides of the equation, but the image is indelibly etched in my mind that he was happy to lower himself to stereotypes, just to get a laugh.... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
It wouldn't stop me choosing Wycliffe, but I would come thinking the Principle had made an almighty twerp of himself (as I think Giles Fraser also has in his Guardian 'rant').
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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quantpole
Shipmate
# 8401
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Leprechaun, it was the 'as I do' that pi**ed me off in that sentence. Apparently Turnbull is pro OoW to some extent, yet here he implies he's in total agreement with his deputy, suggesting he's disingenuous even to his own wife! Why can't he just talk plain and say, 'I don't believe women should have overall control of a church and my mate thinks they can't even teach men, but we're happy to teach them the skill of preaching and maintain our integrity on these separate points'?
The only thing he's saying they're in complete agreement about is the role and position of women in the college, which surely is the critical issue. He makes it emphatically clear that there are varying views regarding the role of women in church life. How much plainer can you be?
This thread is pathetic.
Posts: 885 | From: Leeds | Registered: Aug 2004
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Plus, if you're saying grace ain't biblical
Nobody is saved except by grace. Where did I say otherwise?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I'm a bit puzzled by Turnball's 95% comment (ie "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them"). He seems to assume that only 5% of the population have heard "the gospel", which makes me wonder how he defines it....
The church (a kirk) I grew up in never ever taught anything about any "gospel" or "good news" even though I was there every week, either at Sunday School or at the kirk during the summer when there was no Sunday School - and I started teaching in Sunday School on my 13th birthday, with eight 5year olds in my class, still with no knowledge of the gospel.
I didn't hear any "good news" till a 15 yr old in the new class I went to at school started telling us about it. He's ended up a very qualified minister, studying Greek at school and Hebrew at college, and is still passing on the gospel.
So it is definitely not always something that even church members hear or understand; some churches don't do it.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I'm a bit puzzled by Turnball's 95% comment (ie "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them"). He seems to assume that only 5% of the population have heard "the gospel", which makes me wonder how he defines it....
The church (a kirk) I grew up in never ever taught anything about any "gospel" or "good news" even though I was there every week, either at Sunday School or at the kirk during the summer when there was no Sunday School - and I started teaching in Sunday School on my 13th birthday, with eight 5year olds in my class, still with no knowledge of the gospel.
I didn't hear any "good news" till a 15 yr old in the new class I went to at school started telling us about it. He's ended up a very qualified minister, studying Greek at school and Hebrew at college, and is still passing on the gospel.
So it is definitely not always something that even church members hear or understand; some churches don't do it.
Erm - what did they talk about then? And how did they avoid the gospel in the lectionary?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I'm a bit puzzled by Turnball's 95% comment (ie "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them"). He seems to assume that only 5% of the population have heard "the gospel", which makes me wonder how he defines it....
To be honest, I'm not sure he can really be taken to task too much on that one. How many people in the country do we think have even a basic grasp of what Christians believe - even the bits we all agree are important like, say, the Apostles Creed? IME 5% is generous.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
/tangent alert
today's Church Times, Giles says:
'... I thank God for the mission focus of the modern Evangelical movement...'
attempt at reconciliation with evo friends?
/tangent off
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Hope for everything; expect nothing
Posts: 988 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Ok, we live in a post-Christian society , but it is still post-Christian as opposed to post anything else. Factor in the number of people (especially in the older generation) who were raised as church-goers or educated in church schools or who still attend church a few times a year and you get a rather higher percentage. I'd also hesitate a guess that just about everyone has been 'evangelised' at some point in their lives (whether through door-knocking/street preaching/pamphlets through the letter box or one-on-one contact). Turnball's remark only makes sense if you assume that most churches/Christians aren't preaching "the gospel".
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Turnball's remark only makes sense if you assume that most churches/Christians aren't preaching "the gospel".
Or if you assume that door-knocking, leafleting, and the occasional church service doesn't really count as "bringing the Gospel to people".
[ 01. June 2007, 13:15: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Turnball's remark only makes sense if you assume that most churches/Christians aren't preaching "the gospel".
Or if you assume that door-knowcking, leafleting, and the occsional church service doesn't really countas "bringing the Gospel to people".
I think you'll find that no-one except the JWs thinks that that is "bringing the Gospel to people". It's certainly not the mission strategy of any church I know.
Nevertheless, I suspect there's a lot of disagreement as to what "bringing the Gospel" actually is, even if we're all agreed it's not the above. And a lot of it will depend on whether one's primary approach to faith is propositional, experiential or relational, for a start. For those of us on the relational side, "bringing the Gospel" is about service - not that I'm claiming to be any good at it. For those on the propositional end, it's going to be more explicitly proselytising. Mileage, by golly, won't half vary.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PostDenominational Catholic:
Here are new developments in the Wycliffe Hall controversy, if it hasn't been posted here yet.
This is far more exciting than Big Brother ... and equally as 'real'.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
That link links on to Ricahrd Turnbull's Guardian article. And to the responses to it from readers. Which certainly do make it look as if 95% of the British people know nothing of the Gospel.
Effectively none of those who responded seem to know enough about Christianity to even make a worthwhile point against it. They are so ignorant of it their ideas about it aren't even wrong.
So whatever else the churches have been doing in England, getting the Good News to the secular majority hasn't exactly been a success.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The militant atheist "I'm too clever to imagine there could be a God unlike you cretins" lot are rather out in force, aren't they?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
It's worth linking explicitly to this letter, linked to from the TA post above. It's from the previous, current and next presidents of the student body at Wycliffe.
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
...none of whom are women (just as a point of interest )
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The militant atheist "I'm too clever to imagine there could be a God unlike you cretins" lot are rather out in force, aren't they?
Reading the Guardian? Surely not.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Which leaves one to wonder what paper Tory atheists read.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The Times.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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innocent(ish)
Shipmate
# 12691
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Posted
The Church Times presumably
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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu
Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The militant atheist "I'm too clever to imagine there could be a God unlike you cretins" lot are rather out in force, aren't they?
They're the only people that actually exist on Comment is Free. The same names, the same theories, every day.
AV
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Instead of conservative take over the student presidents say this quote:
we recognise that the implementation of change has not been handled as successfully as it might have been
. This means poor mangement and a balls up. Ironic when the new emphasis at Wycliffe is practical church matters. Maybe they are teaching the way how not to manage change so that the students don't copy them.....
The aspects to this story are
- Poor management.
- Eccentric choice of Principal and Vice-principal
- An attempt to have a conservative take over.
- A change in emphasis in training at Wycliffe.
- Bad inter-personal relationships
All of them seem to be partly true.
Simon vibert on women here
quote:
not only because Scripture has nothing positive to say about women in this position of authority
and here.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Yawn - we seem to be going round in circles here.
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
- A change in emphasis in training at Wycliffe.
definitely
quote:
- Poor management.
- Eccentric choice of Principal and Vice-principal
- Bad inter-personal relationships
To an extent. Better to read it in conjunction with Richard's thing about both he and the council being taken aback by the resistance there was to change. And yes, he also admits that some of the stuff he did was reasonable at the time, but unwise in retrospect.
quote:
- An attempt to have a conservative take over.
This is the one with no evidence whatsoever, except for an anonymous document we know already to be false in several important and easily checkable respects.
quote:
Simon vibert on women here
quote:
not only because Scripture has nothing positive to say about women in this position of authority
and here.
That out of context, it could be talking about women as having the role of power-point operator, where I think we'd all agree that the Bible says nothing negative (or positive) about women in the role.
Look, I can do that too
quote:
We affirm and value the ministry of women within the Church of England
[ 01. June 2007, 17:28: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
- An attempt to have a conservative take over.
This is the one with no evidence whatsoever,
I think the video of Richard Turnbull at Reform is quite conclusive evidence.
He says
quote:
I am sometimes asked why I took the post of Principal of Wycliffe where I have been for only just over a year. Well there are all sorts of answers one could give to that but one of the answers is that I view the post as strategic because it will allow influence to be brought to bear upon generations of the ministry.
found here.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
I'm a bit puzzled by Turnball's 95% comment (ie "unless the message of the gospel is brought to them"). He seems to assume that only 5% of the population have heard "the gospel", which makes me wonder how he defines it....
The church (a kirk) I grew up in never ever taught anything about any "gospel" or "good news" even though I was there every week, either at Sunday School or at the kirk during the summer when there was no Sunday School - and I started teaching in Sunday School on my 13th birthday, with eight 5year olds in my class, still with no knowledge of the gospel.
I didn't hear any "good news" till a 15 yr old in the new class I went to at school started telling us about it. He's ended up a very qualified minister, studying Greek at school and Hebrew at college, and is still passing on the gospel.
So it is definitely not always something that even church members hear or understand; some churches don't do it.
Erm - what did they talk about then? And how did they avoid the gospel in the lectionary?
There was lots of teaching of "modernism" IIRC, and never any encouragement to call ourselves "Christian", as that would be arrogance. And no teaching about the life of Christ as if it really happened, nor any meaning of the crucifixion/resurrection (no Good Friday off school, and it was often called "Black Friday"), no belief in miracles, and never the sort of lectionary that always included a gospel reading. We did always start with a Psalm and often also a Paraphrase.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Ooh! Aagh! Mrs McGrath!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Ooh! Aagh! Mrs McGrath!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Quite a good piece I thought.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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