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Originally posted by Johnny S:

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Originally posted by BroJames:
For the Reformers the via media lay on a path between the errors of Rome and those of Anabaptism

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Of course we all know what happens to those who stand in the middle of the road.

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Crucifixion, I reckon. But then, I'm a Girardian, so I would think that.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Originally posted by sanityman:
Just heard the BBC religious news programme Sunday on Radio 4, which had a good piece on Wycliffe, with some of Turnbull speech and an interview with +Pete. you can listen to it from this page.

- Chris.

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Originally posted by Audry Ely:
... and Westcott is having students fighting!

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and Westcott is having students fighting!

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:

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Originally posted by Jenn R:
There is an article on the independent website. See here

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This is quickly turning into a ridiculous hatchet job. "Principal of evangelical college believes non-Christians going to hell" Since when was that a headline? Even for the Independent that is dull dull dull.

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Originally posted by Yerevan:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:

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Originally posted by Jenn R:
There is an article on the independent website. See here

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This is quickly turning into a ridiculous hatchet job. "Principal of evangelical college believes non-Christians going to hell" Since when was that a headline? Even for the Independent that is dull dull dull.

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Really? I doubt if many Indy readers know/care what evangelicals think about...well anything really, so it probably is all new to them.

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Originally posted by Emma.:
I don't know if "bad" publicity is always good publicity though. I certainly am far more likely to consider Cambridge or Bristol now if I pursue that route in the dim dark distant future..

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Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
Are we? News to me. And I'm only a full-time student here.

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Originally posted by Audry Ely:
In the same way other theological colleges have gone through difficult times at other times -

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Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
No, I was there for all those. Indeed, I started most of them...

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Originally posted by Audry Ely:
I did not mean to say that the problems at Westcott are of the same seriousness as Wycliffe.

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
which is exactly how the conservative evangelicals want you to respond, as that would result in the move from 1+5 to 2+4 that they were speaking of.

Wycliffe will be able to fill its places with cons.evos, Ridley and Trinity get more applicants, everyone is happy except those who want Wycliffe to be what it used to be.

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Can you think of any other theological college in England who has such significant issues that they have been in the national press?

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Originally posted by Custard.:

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Can you think of any other theological college in England who has such significant issues that they have been in the national press?

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And that is the curious thing. Other colleges have certainly had more significant issues.

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Originally posted by Custard.:
Ummm... I can remember bigger issues with Staggers, certainly, which got less press coverage. But it's better not to talk about such things.

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

quote:

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Originally posted by Audry Ely:
In the same way other theological colleges have gone through difficult times at other times -

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Can you think of any other theological college in England who has such significant issues that they have been in the national press?

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Originally posted by Custard.:
[QB] Richard Turnbull wants the college to stay broad.

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Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
I'm sorry, Custard, but I've been following this thread for some time and I'm quite shocked that you can assert:

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Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard Turnbull wants the college to stay broad.

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Given what he said on the video from the Reform conference. Didn't he question the validity of the term 'Open Evangelical' and suggest that, ultimately, one is either an evangelical or a liberal? Perhaps I got that wrong but that's what I heard and if that is what he thinks, then what sort of broad college does he want? If he's saying 'any evangelical can come here - but only Reform-style conservative evangelcials are evangelicals' then isn't he saying exactly what people are accusing him of?

I don't know: you're at the place, not me (I was at Trinity) and for the record, the last two Wycliffe ordinands that I've met in my diocese have been VERY open - to the extent that I was shocked that they were from Wycliffe! But tell me: if someone turned up at your place for an interview now and said that, while they still considered themselves evangelical because that was their tradition/formation and they were still mission-centred (again, Turnbull expressed scepticism/contempt for that word in the video, didn't he?) but that they were now convinced that homosexual practice was not (necessarily) sinful ie if conducted in the context of a loving/committed relationship (to pick an example at random but!) - well: do you think he would be happy/willing to let them (and more like them in?)

I may be wrong but I suspect that the answer to that would be no - and, to be fair, it might be at the 'new' Trinity too. But, if I'm right, what sort of breadth does Turnbull actually have in mind? Would he consider those that have signed the Accepting Evangelicals petition as 'real' evangelicals?

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Originally posted by Callan:
I imagine that the C of E has m'learned friends on tap who could advise as to the legality or not of any decision. I don't think it was unreasonable, if the legal advice pointed that way, to prefer to avoid a court defeat and the subsequent damaging row in the press.

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by Tyler Durden:

quote:

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Originally posted by Custard.:
[QB] Richard Turnbull wants the college to stay broad.

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Given what he said on the video from the Reform conference. Didn't he question the validity of the term 'Open Evangelical' and suggest that, ultimately, one is either an evangelical or a liberal?

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quote:

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Our numbers of ordinands from both conservative and charismatic traditions have increased, so have both the number and proportion of women candidates. For me, and for Wycliffe, ‘inclusive’ means exactly that, rather than the exclusion of particular views. So, issues which divide, whether over ordination, charismatic gifts, baptism etc. have to be debated in the
open, albeit with care and sensitivity.

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the Bible, the atonement and an evangelical understanding of ministry and formation

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But tell me: if someone turned up at your place for an interview now and said that, while they still considered themselves evangelical because that was their tradition/formation and they were still mission-centred (again, Turnbull expressed scepticism/contempt for that word in the video, didn't he?) but that they were now convinced that homosexual practice was not (necessarily) sinful ie if conducted in the context of a loving/committed relationship (to pick an example at random but!) - well: do you think he would be happy/willing to let them (and more like them in?)

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Originally posted by Custard.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyler Durden:

quote:

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Originally posted by Custard.:Richard Turnbull wants the college to stay broad.

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Given what he said on the video from the Reform conference. Didn't he question the validity of the term 'Open Evangelical' and suggest that, ultimately, one is either an evangelical or a liberal?

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Richard said in his article in the CEN:

quote:

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Our numbers of ordinands from both conservative and charismatic traditions have increased, so have both the number and proportion of women candidates. For me, and for Wycliffe, ‘inclusive’ means exactly that, rather than the exclusion of particular views. So, issues which divide, whether over ordination, charismatic gifts, baptism etc. have to be debated in the
open, albeit with care and sensitivity.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What you still don't seem to have addressed is the clear gap between what Turnbull has said in "official" statements and what he said unofficially to Reform.

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... We really do think that the liberal catholic view is now dominant in the CofE (does anyone seriously doubt that it is? Or that it has been for at least forty years, if not eighty?) and we really would prefer to shift things back our way. ...

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As a liberal Catholic Anglican (although I'm not using the word liberal as synonymous with vaccuous - others on this thread might be ) I certainly don't feel that our view is dominant in the CofE.

On the contrary, my own tradition has been pretty rubbish at asserting itself for the last 15 years (which is as long as I've been paying attention). My sense is very much that it's the almost complete failure of the non-Forward-in-Faith Catholics in the CofE to articulate what we believe in a concise, attractive way that has left the field clear for the rise of conservative evangelicalism.

I have to say, though, that I don't really want any one churchpersonship to triumph. That's part of the reason why I'm an Anglican.

BP

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"And the greatness of the great Christian saints lies in their readiness to be questioned, judged, stripped naked and left speechless by what lies at the centre of their faith" - Rowan Williams

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Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
.

On the contrary, my own tradition has been pretty rubbish at asserting itself for the last 15 years (which is as long as I've been paying attention). My sense is very much that it's the almost complete failure of the non-Forward-in-Faith Catholics in the CofE to articulate what we believe in a concise, attractive way that has left the field clear for the rise of conservative evangelicalism.

BP

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Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard tends to tell things how he sees them. Yes, he probably does think that there are evangelicals and liberals. But he'd include a lot of "open evangelicals" in the "evangelical" bracket. I know students here who call themselves "open evangelical" and who Richard is very happy to count as evangelicals.

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
What you still don't seem to have addressed is the clear gap between what Turnbull has said in "official" statements and what he said unofficially to Reform.

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There really isn't a clear gap.

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Er..are you serious? So exactly how many conservative(as opposed to open/liberal) evangelical bishops are there?

And how many liberal catholics?

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I don't know. I doubt anyone asks Bishops to self-label in those categories so I doubt there are meaningful figures available.

I've also expressed myself badly. Sorry. I didn't really mean to see "control" of the CofE in terms of the factional allegiences of the House of Bishops (and yes, I realise that's an odd line for a Catholic ). It's more about my sense of the perception of the average unchurched man in the street.

On any given litmus test issue, the more conservative and/or evengelical organisations (I suppose the paradigm is Reform) are good at producing concise statements of their position, whereas what tends to come from my end of the Church is a sort of wishy washy, "Well let's start a conversation about this..." kind of statement.

Now I happen to think that approach is right; that conversation and listening rather than bullet points probably is what God intends for the Church.

But organisations like Aff. Cath sometimes take such pains to make the dialogue respectful that they flirt with the danger of not really saying anything positive at all.

Anyway, we're way off topic. Sorry about that, too.

BP

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"And the greatness of the great Christian saints lies in their readiness to be questioned, judged, stripped naked and left speechless by what lies at the centre of their faith" - Rowan Williams

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
So exactly how many conservative(as opposed to open/liberal) evangelical bishops are there?

And how many liberal catholics?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Custard.:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Custard.:
[QB] Richard Turnbull wants the college to stay broad.

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Originally posted by Custard.:
IIRC, he doesn't talk of capturing colleges for the evangelicals; he says that colleges are strategic and that evangelicals shouldn't let the liberals capture them.

i.e. the implication is that the colleges are evangelical, and it is stopping them from broadening/liberalifiying rather than capturing them that is needed.

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Custard,

Whatever Richard is paying you, it is clearly not enough

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Originally posted by Dave the Bass:
But (Turnbull) has problems with open evangelicals because they inhabit the grey area between evangelicalism and liberalism, which is precisely where he wants to build a fence. So he has to clear them out of the way, either by incorporating them into his vision of evangelicalism or by pushing them out into liberalism. The long-term objective is to change the C of E into a pureley evangelical church, but this isn't possible while those pesky open evangelicals insist on interacting with, and drawing from, liberal and catholic streams within the church.

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Originally posted by Johnny S:
Custard,

Whatever Richard is paying you, it is clearly not enough

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Originally posted by Custard.:
If they were deliberately going against what they thought the Bible taught, he wouldn't see them as evangelical.

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I've followed but kept out of this so far, but I was interested in Custard's earlier comment that liberals talk about regaining influence in the church, so why shouldn't evangelicals? That makes sense, so why was I also so disturbed when I listened to what was said on the video?

I think it's because it is coming from someone in charge of theological EDUCATION. If you simply see it as theological TRAINING then maybe it is different, but if (as I do) you see it as education then it is surely a prerequisite of education that you seek to allow people to grow and explore, not to constrain them?

What Turnbull actually convinces me of is the exact opposite of what he wants to: I believe more and more that ALL the 'doctrinally' based colleges are doing their students a disservice. Like all Readers I was trained on a course, like many I was trained alongside OLMs: I think most of us would cite the experience of learning and being formed alongside those from different traditions, and having to understand that yes, they really DID believe that, was vital.

Back to what I quoted - ISTM that the terms 'evangelical' and 'catholic', and for that matter 'charismatic' are irrelevant here. What Turnbull is saying, and Custard is reflecting (reflective custard ) is that the battle lines now are between biblical conservative and biblical liberal. Depending on where you draw the dividing line, I suspect the CoE as a whole is more evenly balanced on that than it is on evangelical/catholic.

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Spong

The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams

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Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
I agree (strongly) with Dave the Bass and Richard Collins: open evos 'let the evo side down' for the clearly conservative evos by being happy - or at least willing - to belong to the same church as catholics and even the dreaded liberals.

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Originally posted by Custard.:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
So exactly how many conservative(as opposed to open/liberal) evangelical bishops are there?

And how many liberal catholics?

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Conservative evangelical bishops - easy, coz there's only one: +Lewes.

Liberal catholics have a few more than that I think...

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Custard.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Leprechaun:
So exactly how many conservative(as opposed to open/liberal) evangelical bishops are there?

And how many liberal catholics?

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Conservative evangelical bishops - easy, coz there's only one: +Lewes.

Liberal catholics have a few more than that I think...

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