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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Pre-cambrian
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Going back to the University's review of the PPHs, there's a reference to halls teaching for qualifications that are validated by institutions of higher education other than Oxford. The review panel took great exception to it and basically said it should stop forthwith. It looks like something that is as liable as anything to break the link with a PPH. Does anyone know what that is getting at (of course, it may be nothing to do with Wycliffe).

PS. I can imagine the chagrin in Staggers at being referred to as one of the Protestant Halls throughout [Snigger] .

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Here is the link to the latest stuff. It's not fallibility that's at issue. It's governance, competence, and justice.

This is a very disturbing report indeed from a member of the Council.

quote:
In the letter she says that that the Council had ‘failed to observe due process’ in the areas of terminating staff employment, staff recruitment, the Listening Process, records of Council discussions, and Council membership.

...In the letter Mrs MacInnes wrote she was ‘deeply unhappy’ with the manner the Council had ‘handled the staff restructuring, various dismissals, terminations of employment and resignations’.

In the letter she writes: “The minutes of the Council do not contain points that I have made dissenting from the recommendations of the Principal and Chair, nor do they record votes against recommendations because no vote was taken, so there were claims that a decision was unanimous when no opportunity had been given to formally register dissent.”

Mrs MacInnes also said she felt intimidated by other Council members, particularly on one occasion when she was asked not to take notes during a meeting.

In conclusion, she writes: “I regret that I have no confidence in the Chair, the Principal, or the Council as a whole to address these serious matters of governance, employment practice, and simple human relationships.

“In a Christian foundation, we are bound not merely by the demands of natural justice, but also by the way in which we are called to live as fellow members of the Body of Christ, to ensure that we treat our employees and our colleagues with respect, courtesy and humanity.

“I am left with no option other than to resign from membership of the Hall Council.”

I am not at all impressed by the Bishop of Liverpool's refusal to comment, or for the reason given for the refusal.

quote:
the Bishop of Liverpool said: “It is not possible for the Council to comment at this stage while negotiations are taking place with members of staff.”
Presumably those are the very members they have already terminated? Or are they working on yet more departures? Or are they, finally, starting to examine the position of the Principal and Vice Principal?

None of these cases would justify a failure to address direct criticism of the internal conduct of the Council itself.

[ 03. October 2007, 13:33: Message edited by: badman ]

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The joint statement does not acknowledge any failure, or any bad news of any description at all.

quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard has consistently said that he's made mistakes and is fallible and sinful. We all are.

Custard, your post looks as though it is intended to be a response to badman's, but having listened to the statement, what he says is correct. The statement makes no admission at of any wrongdoing or even failures by the Principal or the Council. The nearest it gets to admitting that anything might be wrong is the very bland "Not all staff have been content with this process."
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TonyinOxford
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Could it refer to the certificate/diploma offered (?) by the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics, which seems to be a front for the Zacharias Trust? Nothing else on the WH website looks as if it's detached from the University: though I suppose non-university qualifications might be given to ministerial trainees...?

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Nightlamp
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I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the blame of the problems at Wycliffe lie with the hall council who seemed to have suffered from a bad case of 'group think'. They appointed a technocrat to change things and basically let him run loose across the college.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Pokrov
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Custard,

As I said on the Fulcrum forum but I don't think you answered my point there...

It's not JUST an issue of making mistakes, but also of being responsible and accountable for the consequences of those mistakes.

His 'mistakes' have led to some very serious consequences. In any other field (such as my own, medicine) this would lead to formal proceedings as to whether one is fit to continue in their job.

[ 03. October 2007, 13:43: Message edited by: Richard Collins ]

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Nightlamp
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The resignation of Mrs MacInnes will increase the cost in paying off the staff who's contracts have been terminated.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Doc Tor
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I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the minutes of a meeting of Council have to be ratified by the Council as a true and accurate record of that meeting, where members of the Council have access to those minutes and are able to amend the same before ratifying them.

If, in fact, Mrs MacInnes is correct in her assertion that the minutes do not record her correspondance with the Chair, the Chair should stand down forthwith. If the whole Council knew about the correspondance, they should all stand down.

You don't mess with the minutes. Ever.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the minutes of a meeting of Council have to be ratified by the Council as a true and accurate record of that meeting, where members of the Council have access to those minutes and are able to amend the same before ratifying them.

If, in fact, Mrs MacInnes is correct in her assertion that the minutes do not record her correspondance with the Chair, the Chair should stand down forthwith. If the whole Council knew about the correspondance, they should all stand down.

You don't mess with the minutes. Ever.

Ah - but where is the Biblical justification for this? Because, clearly, if the Bible doesn't forbid it, it can't be wrong, can it??

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Barnabas62
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Dog's breakfast just became train crash.

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Custard
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The non-University courses offered by Wycliffe are:
  • the Oxford Diploma in Ministry (ODM) - a two-year heavily applied course in ministry, aimed at less-academically inclined ministerial trainees over the age of 30
  • the ODM for Theology Graduates (ODMTG) - essentially an add-on course for people with degrees in theology to teach them the other important ministry stuff
  • courses in evangelism and apologetics offered by the OCCA, which is a collaboration between Wycliffe and Razi Zacahrias, with teaching by staff from both. It's an internationally respected course, with students in the last few years from the US, New Zealand, Indonesia, Eastern Europe, ...


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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the minutes of a meeting of Council have to be ratified by the Council as a true and accurate record of that meeting, where members of the Council have access to those minutes and are able to amend the same before ratifying them.

I'd want to ask questions like
  • Has this set of minutes been ratified?
  • What was Mrs MacInnes's response to them trying to ratify minutes which did not record her objections? Did she point out the omission? It's easy accidentally to omit to mention items of correspondence.

I agree that what she is reported as writing seems to contradict some of what I have heard from college, and to describe a worrying state of affairs.

That does not however tell me which is right. It just tells me that there are at least two contradictory accounts.

[ 03. October 2007, 15:55: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Custard
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Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

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Stamp thine image in its place.


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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

This is rather like your threat of defamation proceedings against me earlier in the thread.

This is a discussion board. No-one is "joining in and even helping with the dogpile." Serious points are being made about serious matters.

You obviously think that is in some way inappropriate or impermissible.

I think that if there had been less cover up and more openness and accountability, the whole sorry mess could have been avoided.

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Cadfael
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

This is a diversion in at least three ways.
1) Wycliffe is not +JJ's personal fiefdom, in the same way that Nottingham is not +Pete's.
2) Bishops are not obliged to agree with one another when they consider each other to be wrong, or to refrain from public comment (as the Anglican Communion has daily proof).
3) This is not a dogpile. Rather, it is a discussion of a continuing, consistent and credible story of apparent ill-treatment and inappropriate procedures attested to by multiple 'insiders'. As badman has said, these are serious issues deserving serious discussion.

I don't always agree with +Pete's position on some matters, but I think it shows considerable integrity on his part that he IS commenting on these issues.

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BroJames
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The Principal and the Council seem to persistently take the line that what is going on at Wycliffe is just a little local diffculty - the latest statement read out on the Radio Ulster interview is a prime example of that. The more they persist in this brush-off approach, the more people are likely to feel that they must stand up and be counted both by action and by letter: three former principals, people resigning posts internally or leaving altogether, three former members of staff and now a member of the Council.

I doubt that any of the people involved wish ill to Wycliffe Hall as an institution, some of them have suffered in clear ways as a result of what has happened. Responses which appear to assert that everything is more or less OK are hard to reconcile with what is actually happening. Neither the Prinicpal nor the Council appear to have any serious response to e.g.
quote:
Until now, out of loyalty to the college and concern for its students, staff at the college have been reluctant to comment, even though the situation has been repeatedly misrepresented in the press by other stakeholders. But now the serious and distressing injustice of the forcible removal of three fellow staff members compels us to set the record straight and to let the facts of the past two years speak for themselves.
To dismiss this kind of thing with the sentence, "not all staff have been content with this process" impugns either the intelligence or the integrity of the staff - or both, and some have lost their jobs over it.

It needs people of standing whose voices will be listened to to stand up and be counted - people like the three former principals (and, come to that +Pete). There clearly is a bad situation. If things like the Radio Ulster statement represent the considered view of the Principal and the Council then they appear not yet to have faced the facts.

All this may be nothing to do with the impression given by Richard Turnbull's address to Reform that he wants to move Wycliffe more in the Oak Hill direction, but that certainly adds an unfortunate twist.

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pete173
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

I hope I'd have the guts and integrity to
(1) meet the Staff who were complaining, and allow them to have an open dialogue with the Council
(2) conduct the business of Council without recourse to preventing members of the Council from having their questions answered
(3) use the disciplinary and grievance procedures properly, including allowing members of staff to be accompanied by a friend or union representative
(4) answer letters written to me by members of Council
(5) protect members of Council from being bullied by other members of Council
(6) respond publicly to criticisms, rather than hiding behind limp "no comments because of legal proceedings" and "the college is full and it's all wonderful" propaganda
(7) make the Principal accountable for his actions and his management style
(8) resign if I thought my position was untenable

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Pete

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

Question for Custard:

What will it take to convince you that there is some slight problem in the Wycliffe Senior Common Room?

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

I hope I'd have the guts and integrity to
(1) meet the Staff who were complaining, and allow them to have an open dialogue with the Council
(2) conduct the business of Council without recourse to preventing members of the Council from having their questions answered
(3) use the disciplinary and grievance procedures properly, including allowing members of staff to be accompanied by a friend or union representative
(4) answer letters written to me by members of Council
(5) protect members of Council from being bullied by other members of Council
(6) respond publicly to criticisms, rather than hiding behind limp "no comments because of legal proceedings" and "the college is full and it's all wonderful" propaganda
(7) make the Principal accountable for his actions and his management style
(8) resign if I thought my position was untenable

Thanks for this Pete 173.
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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
(8) resign if I thought my position was untenable

This lies at the heart of the matter for me. Clearly people have been hurt by the situation at Wycliffe Hall. I'm glad the student numbers are up for this year, but I'm seriously concerned about the future. This has been handled badly by the Principal and the Chairman of the Council. If I was in either of their positions I would resign. They have made a total hash of things.

I've avoided comment on this because I haven't been able to work out whether this was a simple case of mismanagement, a proxy for the open/conservative evangelical split or for the wider Anglican crisis. Some of the commentators on this thread and elsewhere are using the splits at Wycliffe for their own propaganda purposes. I'm satisfied in my mind now that this is primarily a management fiasco. This has happened before in church institutions and will happen again.

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Question for +Pete

How would you feel if it was St John's Nottingham that was under fire, and +James Jones appeared to be joining in and even helping with the dogpile?

I hope I'd have the guts and integrity to
(1) meet the Staff who were complaining, and allow them to have an open dialogue with the Council
(2) conduct the business of Council without recourse to preventing members of the Council from having their questions answered
(3) use the disciplinary and grievance procedures properly, including allowing members of staff to be accompanied by a friend or union representative
(4) answer letters written to me by members of Council
(5) protect members of Council from being bullied by other members of Council
(6) respond publicly to criticisms, rather than hiding behind limp "no comments because of legal proceedings" and "the college is full and it's all wonderful" propaganda
(7) make the Principal accountable for his actions and his management style
(8) resign if I thought my position was untenable

Pete173,
Given that practically none of this has happened in this case, what are the actual options going forward? To whom can appeal be made? Who can call the Council to account?

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Given that practically none of this has happened in this case, what are the actual options going forward? To whom can appeal be made? Who can call the Council to account?

I would say the entire council should resign and be replaced.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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pete173
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I don't think anything can be done. The Council are accountable to nobody for their modus operandi (except possibly the Charity Commissioners). They're convinced that they are right (and their way of operating is right). They will tough it out, say that everyone else is telling porky pies, and hope they've bought off all the staff with confidentiality clauses, and that nobody will take them to a tribunal.

And the College will, one hopes, go on turning out good ordinands. But that's a very pragmatic end point, because good staff members and friends have been shafted in the process, which makes me (and others) very angry and seething at the injustice of it all.

As Spawn says, part of the problem is that it's become a totemic fight rather than a fight about good governance, fair treatment of staff and good management.

And many folk who are supporters of the leadership and current students rally to the cause, because they can't quite believe that the things being said could possibly be true, because it's not what they experience (or it's not what they want to believe).

So it'll go into the annals of yet another evangelical cover-up - and another scratching point between the evangelical tribes.

But there won't be justice...

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Pete

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Question for Custard:

What will it take to convince you that there is some slight problem in the Wycliffe Senior Common Room?

That there was a fairly serious problem in the Wycliffe SCR?

I already accept that. I don't think there is at the moment though.

That Richard shouldn't be running college?

That's for the council and Richard, not for me. I think he's a good person to take college forwards from where it is now.

That there is a problem on the council?

I accept that is a possibility. I only know a couple of people on the council, though they seem nice enough and ought to know what they are doing. To my mind, of the people on the council who have commented, the ones who have said it is ok are slightly more trustworthy (if only because they are the Bishop of Liverpool) than the ones who have said it isn't.

There's more to be said. We haven't heard Richard Turnbull or James Jones's sides of this yet and I think it's unfair to condemn people without listening to their stories. Richard is clear that there are some pieces of information which sort the whole situation out which are still confidential.

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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
and hope they've bought off all the staff with confidentiality clauses,

The college accounts would make interesting reading.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
So it'll go into the annals of yet another evangelical cover-up - and another scratching point between the evangelical tribes.

I'm sure that Pete is much more au fait with the ways of evangelical tribes than I am, but looking at all this from outside it strikes me as much more a failure of the 'managerial' approach, than anything to do with ecclesiastical party politics. In particular, managers who find it hard to tolerate opposition and whose blinkered view is untainted by any contact with reality. That these managers in the current C of E often wear purple and pointy hats is a sad reality - though I doubt if that is true of the episcopal area of Willesden.

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Pokrov
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I haven't been able to work out whether this was a simple case of mismanagement, a proxy for the open/conservative evangelical split or for the wider Anglican crisis

Spawn, why can't it be both/and?

I do think that RT's Reformance performance highlights a 'theologo-political' edge to his actions/leadership style, most of which have led to this debarcle. Of course the theological differences can't be pushed TOO far since the Councils poor handling of this reflects more the 'mis-management' side of things. As Nightlamp has said, the Council were probably blinded to RT's behaviour precisely because he was 'their' man, selected to get a certain job done.

I hope this DOES go to a tribunal, since it would:

a) Answer the case once and for all
b) Allow accountability to bite all the way to the 'top' (or not, as the case may be)

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:

There's more to be said. We haven't heard Richard Turnbull or James Jones's sides of this yet and I think it's unfair to condemn people without listening to their stories. Richard is clear that there are some pieces of information which sort the whole situation out which are still confidential.

The first two sentences are right of course. The third is now hugely problematic. If those pieces of information are indeed available, I can well appreciate why they might be confidential to the management and governance of the Hall. Whether includable directly in the minutes or not. But surely this information could not be withheld from Mrs McInnes, given her opinion in writing in advance. The passing on to her in confidence of any such information would be vital in helping to try to change her mind and keep her on board. Which would, surely, have been preferable, from the Hall Council's POV, to what has actually happened.

I've no doubt these pieces of information convince Richard Turnbull. So you now have a real conundrum.

1. Either they were tried out on Mrs McInnes and she didn't find them convincing enough to change her mind.

2. Or they weren't tried out on her, which seems even more lamentable, in view of what has happened.

"Woman overboard" in these circumstances is a news management disaster. Particularly since she confirms so much of the complaints which were the subject of the CEN letter. And opens up another criticism of the Hall Council to boot. Clumsy, to say the least.

[ 03. October 2007, 18:40: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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The Weeder
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:

Richard is clear that there are some pieces of information which sort the whole situation out which are still confidential.

Custard, does this not make you think long and hard? I really hope for your sake that your loyalty is vindicated. If it is not, you will have my prayers and sympathy, without any sense of 'Told you so'
[Votive]

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Still missing the gator

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
There's more to be said. We haven't heard Richard Turnbull or James Jones's sides of this yet and I think it's unfair to condemn people without listening to their stories. Richard is clear that there are some pieces of information which sort the whole situation out which are still confidential.

I must admit that I am rather worried about this.

First of all, it seems to me that we HAVE been hearing RT's side. First of all, through Jonathan Aitken (remember his article?) and latterly through you.

Now I don't know if this has been deliberate on your part or not, but you have become the "unofficial voice of Richard Turnbull". Your posting (here and in other places) are full of "Richard says this or that". This concerns me in a number of ways.

1. If you speak for RT, it partly absolves him of the need to speak for himself. And I think he DOES need to start speaking rather than hiding behind inadequate brief statements. It is RT and not you who needs to be explaining what has happened.

2. Allowing you to be RT's voice gives him plausible deniability and could leave you with egg on your face and your reputation in tatters. What I mean is this - what if RT tells you something which is completely (and demonstratably) false and which you, in all innocence, repeat here (and elsewhere)? If the sh*t hits the fan, RT can deny saying it. Even if you claim he did, he can still say "but you misunderstood me". Now I am not saying that RT would deliberately lie or would deliberately make you the fall guy. But things have a way of getting very muddled and at the moment, your eagerness to speak on behalf of RT could leave you open to a serious embarrassment, whilst enabling RT to walk away. I don't want to scaremonger, but it is not inconceivable that your reputation and even ministry could be severely damaged simply because you wrote something, based on what RT had said to you, which later turned out to be hopelessly false.

If RT has something to say, he should say it himself and take responsibility for his own words.

3. You are at WH to train for ordination. Becoming so involved in these debates cannot help your training and preparation for ministry. At best, it is a mild distraction. At worst, it could cause you to lose sight of what you are doing and why. I can't help feeling that your recent posts indicate that you have begun to lose perspective about this issue to the point where, were I a prospective training incumbent, I would be having serious doubts about your readiness for ministry.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yerevan
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# 10383

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quote:
That there was a fairly serious problem in the Wycliffe SCR?

I already accept that. I don't think there is at the moment though

Mmmmm yes, probably because rather alot of the SCR are now elsewhere.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
and hope they've bought off all the staff with confidentiality clauses,

The college accounts would make interesting reading.
Having looked at the 2006 accounts (the public ones), I am wrong, they will be very boring because any money paid to ex-staff will be hidden under some very general title.

[ 03. October 2007, 21:06: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I don't think anything can be done. ...

But there won't be justice...

So is there no chance of some action from MinDiv? I thought General Synod had asked them to look into things.

And what of the college visitor? I suppose he has a few other things on his mind at the moment. But couldn't he put a group together to "visit"?

The only other option is some sort of legal action or employment tribunal by one of the "dismissed" staff. Perhaps someone could start up a fighting fund to support this.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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I don't think the CofE can do very much they only have the nuclear option of withdrawing accreditation from Wycliffe although individual Bishops may prevent ordinands from going there.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Question for Custard:

What will it take to convince you that there is some slight problem in the Wycliffe Senior Common Room?

That there was a fairly serious problem in the Wycliffe SCR?

I already accept that. I don't think there is at the moment though.

That Richard shouldn't be running college?

That's for the council and Richard, not for me. I think he's a good person to take college forwards from where it is now.

I can't see this. Where it is now is in deep shit. I think he should go. The quicker the better. Resigning would be the simplest option. Being sacked would perhaps be the most appropiate option. He is obviously (in my opinion) unable to appreciate wisdom from others, a bit of a dictator and a bully, insecure in relation to critics, he cannot manage a Christian institution in a Christian manner, and (on separate grounds) he has too big an inferiority complex in relation to the academic standing of the previous Principal. In fact I don't see him as basically clever enough to be a good Principal of an evangelical theological college. His judgement on staff matters is obviously appalling: compare the people he has pushed off to the ones he has recruited and ask about the quality.

You should stop your dear Richard from whispering in your ear Custard. Try disagreeing with him (just for an exercise).

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Tyler Durden
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# 2996

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I know lots of people are now concluding that this is all an issue of (mis)management and not theology (the open v conservative evo divide) but as someone (can't remember who) keeps saying, let's not forget Turnbull's speech to Reform...

I couldn't help noticing that in his recent statement/letter, Turnbull said words to the effect of: 'We have all kinds of evangelical here: conservatives and charismatics...' The word open was very conspicuous by its absence from that statement. That can hardly be an accidental ommission in the current climate. It is surely a (second) declaration of war...

As to Oscar's warning to Custard (I think it was Oscar's) I have to confess that I have wondered at times whether 'Custard' is actually Turnbull's online persona!!! [Biased] [Snigger] [Devil]

Of course I know that this is not the case but like others I am quite shocked at the way Custard is still maintaining that there is no problem/nothing to see here when there clearly is one. At the very least he is minimising it imo. However, I think it's going a bit far to suggest that he is therefore not ready for ordination. I'm sure that most conservative evo churches would be delighted to have him!

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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld

Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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I have some concerns about this post.

It is an inappropriate use of Purgatory to spread insider information or to discuss tactics or who is acting as whose spokesperson. The last sentence is also getting too personal.

Stick to discussion of what is in the public domain.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

[ 03. October 2007, 23:15: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scribehunter
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# 12750

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I see that post as a word of pastoral advice to a young ordinand.
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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
You should stop your dear Richard from whispering in your ear Custard.

Who's whispering in your ear, Scribehunter?

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
You should stop your dear Richard from whispering in your ear Custard.

Who's whispering in your ear, Scribehunter?
Read my last Host Post - including the bit about not getting personal. If you must discuss my Host Post then do so in the Styx not on the thread

Otherwise, take it to Hell or desist.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

[ 03. October 2007, 23:24: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
You should stop your dear Richard from whispering in your ear Custard.

Who's whispering in your ear, Scribehunter?
Cheers. Great comeback. Only strange voices. But it is time for bed so maybe the wife will whisper some sweet nothings.
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Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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It reads to me as if Custard is acting as an unofficial spokesperson for Richard Turnbull.

If some of the things he's saying aren't coming from Richard Turnbull then I think there's a problem with him posting them, because he is posting as if he knows what he's talking about.

If they are, then I think he should say 'Richard Turnbull want me to say this' so we can discuss those comments without all the 'woulds' and 'mights'.

Either way, if Custard insists on telling us what Richard 'might' think, say or do, surely it's fair to comment on the fact he's doing so?

[Crossposted with a couple of people since Duo's post]

[ 03. October 2007, 23:31: Message edited by: Arrietty ]

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The process should be clear - that depends on the institution making it clear to the student, I grant you. if it isn't - ask awkward questions!

I don't see how any equitable system of reporting can rely as you suggest on the reportee holding the reporters to account. Since the ordinand needs a favourable report to progress to ordination, and questioning the process or the conclusions could be presented as evidence of unfitness, the situation you describe seems pretty much a classic Catch 22 to me.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
It reads to me as if Custard is acting as an unofficial spokesperson for Richard Turnbull.

If some of the things he's saying aren't coming from Richard Turnbull then I think there's a problem with him posting them, because he is posting as if he knows what he's talking about.

If they are, then I think he should say 'Richard Turnbull want me to say this' so we can discuss those comments without all the 'woulds' and 'mights'.

Either way, if Custard insists on telling us what Richard 'might' think, say or do, surely it's fair to comment on the fact he's doing so?

[Crossposted with a couple of people since Duo's post]

HOSTING
Rather than referring to the fact of my Host post, it would be better if the lot of you would bloody well pay attention to it.

No more along this line.

Duo Seraphim,Purgatory Host

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Custard
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# 5402

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Endeavouring to stick to what is in the public domain and to see how little of the mud sticks...

Yes, I am friends with Richard Turnbull, and with quite a few of the other protagonists. Look back through this thread. Can you find a single time where I criticise David Wenham?

Now, how many times do I say that Richard made mistakes? 10? 15?

I've got a track record of sticking up for friends of mine (or even friends of friends) when there's a dogpile on them on the Ship. I've even said publically on here that that is my main reason for still spending time here. Would I stick up for David Wenham (for example) less? Of course not.

As it happens, it seems that I am just about the only person on the Ship in a position to know something of Richard Turnbull's point of view on this, and while I know that he's made mistakes, it still seems fairly clear that he is more sinned against than sinning in this case.

Yes, I think that JJ and/or RT really ought to make a statement. Yes, I'm in the dark about what went on with Clare MacInnes. Yes, I'm open to the possibility that I might be in wrong, which is more than I can say for some others on this thread. I think it really is quite remarkable that anyone is up for condemning people unequivocally before hearing their point of view (John 7:45-52 references totally intentional).

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I have some concerns about this post.

It is an inappropriate use of Purgatory to spread insider information or to discuss tactics or who is acting as whose spokesperson. The last sentence is also getting too personal.

Stick to discussion of what is in the public domain.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

I apologise if I have stepped over the boundaries of what is appropriate in Purgatory.

(I would point out, however, that it is not me who is spreading "insider information")

I hope that it can be seen that my comments were not intended maliciously, but out of genuine concern.

Sorry.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tyler Durden
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# 2996

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I feel that my last point got rather lost in the now-terminated discussion of who's speaking on whose behalf....

So, to repeat myself:

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
in his recent statement/letter, Turnbull said words to the effect of: 'We have all kinds of evangelical here: conservatives and charismatics...' The word open was very conspicuous by its absence from that statement. That can hardly be an accidental ommission in the current climate. It is surely a (second) declaration of war...

Responses, please...

[ 04. October 2007, 07:02: Message edited by: Tyler Durden ]

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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld

Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scribehunter
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# 12750

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Does anybody know how many woman ordinands there are at Wycliffe? Are these sort of figures published officially anywhere?
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750

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I gather that SEITE has withdrawn its position in biblical studies 'due to unforseen circumstances'. This vacancy arose through the planned departure of Rev. Dr. Andy Angel to Wycliffe (scheduled for December). I'm wondering whether Andy Angel has changed his mind about going to Wycliffe.
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Yerevan
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# 10383

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quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
I know lots of people are now concluding that this is all an issue of (mis)management and not theology (the open v conservative evo divide) but as someone (can't remember who) keeps saying, let's not forget Turnbull's speech to Reform...

I couldn't help noticing that in his recent statement/letter, Turnbull said words to the effect of: 'We have all kinds of evangelical here: conservatives and charismatics...' The word open was very conspicuous by its absence from that statement. That can hardly be an accidental ommission in the current climate. It is surely a (second) declaration of war...

I argued a few pages back that Turnbull's behaviour to date is actually quite consistent with a desire to move Wycliffe to the right (moving slowly, making a few 'open' appointments along the way, expecting the shift to take at least ten years). I have no idea if this is the case, but it fits whats the information in the public domain to date.

Custard. I'm not seeing a dogpile here. Given whats in the public domain (a critical letter from three former principals and the loss of several respected members of staff, evidence that the university isn't exactly happy, the Reform speech) the concerns people have raised here are pretty legitimate. Ok, one or two might have an axe to grind, but then with respect you aren't a disinterested observer either. What alternative do you suggest to the 'dogpile'? That everyone politely ignore the whole sorry mess? Personally I don't care much about inter-evangelical spats in the Anglican camp. I'm following this thread because I'm curious as to what exactly is going on in Wycliffe (and the fact I pass it on the bus most days keeps on reminding me of its existence [Biased] ). And from what I've heard whats going on is a complete mess. I'd much rather that it wasn't a mess, wasn't making Wycliffe and the other PPHs look awful and wasn't being played out in the media (like Christianity needs more negative publicity right now). I hope the issue is resolved soon. Everyone keeping quiet isn't going to make that happen any quicker.

[ 04. October 2007, 08:49: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged



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