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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Scribehunter
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Thanks Charles,
That is a helpful clarification.

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
,snip> the more important issue is that the Trust Deeds make no reference to Wycliffe being "an evangelical college", except in the general sense of producing "faithful and able Ministers of the Gospel." It simply points out that the principles of the Hall (Ridley Hall has the same deed) are based on the thirty-nine articles<snip>

Are the Trust Deeds viewable online?
I can't find them anywhere online. My understanding (from reading it) is that both Ridley and Wycliffe have the same trust deed, so you may be able to get a copy from one of the Halls.
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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Oh, and is Clare MacInnes the wife of David, formerly Rector of St Aldate's?

yes.
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FreeJack
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So there is a signal in her departure as she was female, lay and charismatic. In the olden days, I believe that St Aldate's, St Ebbe's and St Andrew's all had a rep on the WH Council, however that was legally phrased!
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BroJames
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A post here last night on the Fulcrum forums suggest that WH has published some kind of response to Clare McInnes's letter - does anyone here have a fuller picture?
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I realise that some candidates will want to go to colleges that reflect their own thinking, but I had assumed that catholics can go to Wycliffe if they want to.

A friend of mine who used to work at Wycliffe said that there were a few ordinands who did not fit the evangelical type. They tended to be the sort of person who liked an argument and were a bit of a character. Apparently, you could spot the mavericks fairly easily at the start of the academic year.
That sounds like the Wycliffe of which I was common room president.
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Emma Louise

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Oooh when was that? Do I know you? (pm if you like - or not at all!)
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
Oooh when was that? Do I know you? (pm if you like - or not at all!)

I was there between 2001-2004; you?
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Emma Louise

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1997-2000 - just missed you!
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Cadfael
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Why has Dr David Way (of the Ministry Division) NOT been removed from the list of Hall Council members, despite (according to discussion over on Thinking Anglicans) not being a member for several years & repeated requests for removal from the website?

I ask this question because Clare Macinnes HAS already been removed from the list.

Are there any other 'ghost members' of the council?

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Codepoet

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quote:
Originally posted by Hermeneut:
Why has Dr David Way (of the Ministry Division) NOT been removed from the list of Hall Council members, despite (according to discussion over on Thinking Anglicans) not being a member for several years & repeated requests for removal from the website?

I ask this question because Clare Macinnes HAS already been removed from the list.

Are there any other 'ghost members' of the council?

probably because (as with most websites) there is no intersection between the people who know how to update the website, and the people who know what is going on in the organisation.

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
quote:
Originally posted by Hermeneut:
Why has Dr David Way (of the Ministry Division) NOT been removed from the list of Hall Council members, despite (according to discussion over on Thinking Anglicans) not being a member for several years & repeated requests for removal from the website?

I ask this question because Clare Macinnes HAS already been removed from the list.

Are there any other 'ghost members' of the council?

probably because (as with most websites) there is no intersection between the people who know how to update the website, and the people who know what is going on in the organisation.
Not quite no intersection - they were quick enough in removing Clare McInnes
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innocent(ish)
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FYI

The Wikipedia entry on Wycliffe Hall was blanked on two occassions last month, both times by an anonymous user with a Wycliffe IP address.

The second time the explaination 'I'm not keen on this article' was left behind.

Admittedly the article did display some bias, although not enough to deserve anymore than a monor edit (which it has since got).

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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BroJames
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As a new and infrequent contributor to Wiki it was interesting to see how it all works. Complete blanking twice by a user from the same Wycliffe IP address was treated as vandalism, automatically reversed and led to a 24 hour ban on editing. Genuine discussion on how to deal with the controversy was fine leading to appropriate careful editing. All accessible via the 'Discussion' and 'History' tabs on the Wiki page.
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Nightlamp
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Latimer trust Now support Wycliffe and reading their basis of faith it does concern me as they seem to be leaving mainstream Christianity behind since I would have thought the historical creeds would have been good enough.
Andrew Atherstone a tutor at Wycliffe and member of the Latimar trust is to write an article titled
quote:
The Collapse and Resurgence of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford’
Although It would seem that the problems at Wycliffe are mostly about poor management all round there is certainly an undercurrent to move the college to the conservative end of the spectrum. I know people like custard disagree with this the evidence would suggest this is a fact.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
there is certainly an undercurrent to move the college to the conservative end of the spectrum. I know people like custard disagree with this the evidence would suggest this is a fact.

And what exactly's wrong with that? Pre-Turnbull, I see one con-evo college, one charismatic one and four open ones. Balanced, non?

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Nightlamp
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Personally,if the objective was to make wycliffe conservative, I would say the way in which has been done with mass removal of staff (being pushed out?). Hiding ones personal agenda with another one and carrying on with deception and double dealing all shall we say a little sub-christian, non?

Pre-turnbull if that was the balance of the colleges then it was a fairly good reflection of the make up of evangelicism of the CofE.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Latimer trust Now support Wycliffe and reading their basis of faith it does concern me as they seem to be leaving mainstream Christianity behind since I would have thought the historical creeds would have been good enough.

Looking at their DB, I'd say that if they support Wycliffe it hardly bodes well for female ordinands.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Latimer trust Now support Wycliffe and reading their basis of faith it does concern me as they seem to be leaving mainstream Christianity behind since I would have thought the historical creeds would have been good enough.

Looking at their DB, I'd say that if they support Wycliffe it hardly bodes well for female ordinands.
Looking that the DB I'm not sure what they're doing in the C of E. They must know that hell will freeze over before the church as a whole accepts their position.
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Scribehunter
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It is not very fair to castigate Wycliffe Hall for the emphases in the doctrinal basis of a different organisation.
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Peter Ould
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
Oooh when was that? Do I know you? (pm if you like - or not at all!)

I was there between 2001-2004; you?
I was 2002 - 2005. Have you got a real name behind that Cranmer avatar so I can put a face to the words?

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www.peter-ould.net

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daronmedway
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I see nothing wrong in the principle of a theological college, who having been appointed to the lead the college through the next chapter of its life, seeking to pursue his own vision. He has every right to do that! If the college were moving in a more liberal direction would there be such a furore taking place? I doubt it. Would those who sympathise with the trad liberal/open evo position be voicing concern that the 'tradition' of the college is being damaged? No, they'd see it as a positive progression.

There are people who see the shift in a more conservative direction as positive: I'm one of them. However, I am a little concerned that the 'frozen chosen' may gain too much of an advantage if the likes of the Church Society and the Latimier Trust are not balanced by voices from the Conservative Charismatic branch of evangelicalism. I doubt that is going to happen though because, AFAIK, there a number of conservative-charismatics on the staff team.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
It is not very fair to castigate Wycliffe Hall for the emphases in the doctrinal basis of a different organisation.

Well Wycliffe Hall and the Latimer trust seem to be in some form of partnership
Andrew Atherstone says
quote:
I hope the Wycliffe / Latimer relationship will prove to be a fruitful one for all concerned
and see here. Membership of tutors of the college and Latimar trust now overlap which they didn't before.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
It is not very fair to castigate Wycliffe Hall for the emphases in the doctrinal basis of a different organisation.

After re-reading my post my crictism of Latimar trust's basis of faith could be read as a crictism of Wycliffe Hall. I did not intend that. I would say that if Wycliffe Hall partner with groups who have dodgy doctrines then they are going to tarnish Wycliffe.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
There are people who see the shift in a more conservative direction as positive:

Maybe it is positive although I would say it is a retrogade step. If this was always the vision then the way in which it seems to have been done is scandalous.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
I see nothing wrong in the principle of a theological college, who having been appointed to the lead the college through the next chapter of its life, seeking to pursue his own vision. He has every right to do that!

I think that's right Numpty. No doubt some of the detractors who have criticised the means do not like what they see as the ends.

As someone outside the fraternity, the means per se, certainly the appearance of them, have been the real concern. Not the ends. There seems little doubt that Wycliffe needed to make some important and necessary organisational changes - and so far as I know, Richard Turnbull may have been very good at pursuing that aspect of the change agenda.

But that is not the issue for me. "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". Sure. But people are not eggs. There are human casualties of good character here and it is still by no means clear why it was necessary for them to become casualties.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Callan
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Originally posted by Call Me Numpty:

quote:
I see nothing wrong in the principle of a theological college, who having been appointed to the lead the college through the next chapter of its life, seeking to pursue his own vision. He has every right to do that! If the college were moving in a more liberal direction would there be such a furore taking place? I doubt it. Would those who sympathise with the trad liberal/open evo position be voicing concern that the 'tradition' of the college is being damaged? No, they'd see it as a positive progression.
I hope very much that I would be as willing to criticise a liberal college which violated the rights of its employees as I would a conservative college.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Nightlamp
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The way the staff seems to have been treated seems terrible.
If it is cock-up then managers should take responsibility for being bad (I am not saying anyone should resign but in industry that would be the response).
It it is part of a plan then to be honest then it is worse than appalling and heads should roll.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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This is something where I think I can contribute productively for one post only.

Wycliffe has also over the last year entered into a partnership with CMS and Regents' Park to employ Cathy Ross as tutor in Mission. Both of those organisations are to the liberal side of Wycliffe, and I don't hear any objections about that.

It has been said in my hearing that if the Society of Evangelical Feminists or New Wine or whoever wants to sponsor a teaching post at Wycliffe, they're very welcome to.

It's more a case of who is willing to stump up the money. Latimer were, and Andrew Atherstone seems to be a great addition.

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I hope very much that I would be as willing to criticise a liberal college which violated the rights of its employees as I would a conservative college.

Quite, but I don't think everyone feels that way.

On the whole shift thing, the current things being said are in terms of a shift of emphasis towards training people to evangelise and preach the Bible and in terms of a shift from assuming evangelicalism to asserting it.

[ 17. October 2007, 13:00: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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innocent(ish)
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:

On the whole shift thing, the current things being said are in terms of a shift of emphasis towards training people to evangelise and preach the Bible and in terms of a shift from assuming evangelicalism to asserting it.

A shift from what emphasis?

[ 17. October 2007, 13:26: Message edited by: innocent(ish) ]

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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moonlitdoor
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If we're having clarification, can I ask about the other bit ? Who is supposed to assert evangelicalism to whom, rather than assuming it ?

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Magistra
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Numpty: I believe we know each other, I was at Wycliffe during the same period and did some babysitting for you (if you're who I think you are!) - I was also CR secretary briefly.

I'm a little shocked that the only question you have about the recent changes at Wycliffe surrounds the inclusion of conservative charismatics. As far as I know, that doesn't seem to be an issue and charismatics are thriving. But I'm afraid I'm not reassured by that level of 'inclusivity'. What is really deeply concerning is the systematic elimination of dissent, the deplorable treatment of long-serving and highly respected staff, and the stonewalling and downright spin which has characterized the college's response to serious questions about its conduct.

Also, frankly, while Turnbull has a right to make changes he is also directly accountable to his employing institutions. I doubt that Simon Vibert's species of conservatism which says that women should not even TEACH men has any place in a secular University, and I also doubt that brutal and despotic management styles have any place in a Christian Church.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I hope very much that I would be as willing to criticise a liberal college which violated the rights of its employees as I would a conservative college.

Exactly so. The really concerning issue is not about theological stance at all.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
I'm a little shocked that the only question you have about the recent changes at Wycliffe surrounds the inclusion of conservative charismatics. As far as I know, that doesn't seem to be an issue and charismatics are thriving.

When we were at Wycliffe tensions existed between the groovy gang (charismatics) and the frozen chosen (conservatives). This generally involved the Geneva boys isolating themselves from the everybody else. I was never particularly impressed by the public school snobbery of many conservatives. Their particular brand of evangelicalism was, and I imagine still is, pretty exclusive. However, just because they've been brought up in churches like All Souls, Langham Place (and carry a lot of cultural baggage from that circle) doesn't mean that their theological convictions are incorrect.

quote:
But I'm afraid I'm not reassured by that level of 'inclusivity'. What is really deeply concerning is the systematic elimination of dissent, the deplorable treatment of long-serving and highly respected staff, and the stonewalling and downright spin which has characterized the college's response to serious questions about its conduct.
Like I say, I don't really know how Turnbull has been behaving but, to be perfectly honest, it seems to be his detractors that are exploiting the media to their own ends. I don't agree with that. When it comes to inclusivity, I've had to rely on custard (a shipmate not the foodstuff!) to know how things are at Wycliffe. Based on his testimony, they don't seem that bad to me.

quote:
Also, frankly, while Turnbull has a right to make changes he is also directly accountable to his employing institutions. I doubt that Simon Vibert's species of conservatism which says that women should not even TEACH men has any place in a secular University, and I also doubt that brutal and despotic management styles have any place in a Christian Church.
I've been on the receiving end of enough opposition (from fellow clergy) in my life to know that I'm being manipulated when words like 'brutal' and 'depostic' are being thrown into the mix! Seriously, it's words like that that cause these, essentially petty, differences of opinion within evangelicalism to get blown out of proportion. In my experience, it's usually when people can't take a simple 'no' for an answer that such hyperbole begins to manifest itself. [Smile]
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innocent(ish)
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I think we have to accept that there are two seperate dynamics playing out here.

Firstly Turnbulls relationship with the (current) students, which from reports on this board and elsewhere seems to be uniformly good. In the moulding of ordinands, I would hope and expect this to be the case, and it certainly seems to be so. Whether you agree with his particular theological stance is an entirely different matter.

Secondly there is his relationship - or lack of - with staff members. This dynamic will be entirely different now to what it was six months ago, if only due to the fact that he has made plenty of new appointments as former staff have left of the own accord or have been 'required to leave'.

To me this seems to be at the heart of the curent issue. We have heard from some staff who have chosen to go, but not directly from Elaine Storkey and the Goddards, or from RT or the council in respect of those three. Clearly the issue has not yet been resolved, and as it is probably in the hands of 'my learned friends', I wouldn't have expected to.

Until the picture is completely clear, speculation is all there is - and it will continue until the matter is resolved, which hopefully it will be shortly.

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
Until the picture is completely clear, speculation is all there is - and it will continue until the matter is resolved, which hopefully it will be shortly.

We have had a clear statement, both in her letter and in her radio interview which is available online, from a member of the governing Council. We have been shown the undisputed text of a letter from the three principals who immediately preceded Richard Turnbull. These are not speculation, and they raise very serious criticisms, substantive criticisms, not just name calling, of the way Wycliffe Hall is being run, and of its treatment of staff. We also know that an unusually large number of staff have left and, in some cases, have been required to leave. We also have the PPH report, which is critical, although the criticism is veiled and diplomatically expressed.

I think this amounts to more than speculation. I think it amounts to a serious case to answer.

Those responsible for Wycliffe Hall - notably, the Principal and his supporters on the Council - have not answered this case. They have made very little comment, and none of it has directly tackled the points being made.

Therefore, I don't think it is speculative of me to say that the management of Wycliffe Hall since the appointment of Richard Turnbull has been a mess, and the handling of the mess has been a mess as well.

I can't think this is healthy for Wycliffe Hall, its staff, its students, or its supporters. Custard rather supports this by suggesting that the reason an extremist organisation such as the Latimer Trust has gained disproportionate influence (of course, he does not put it like that) is that it has been prepared to put in money while others are not. That is hardly surprising, given what Wycliffe Hall has apparently become.

It is a great shame.

Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383

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I've heard rumours that Turnbull is fundraising on Wycliffe's behalf in some very conservative circles in the US. I've no idea how accurate they are and would be interested in what better informed people had to say.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Strategically one could argue that the various evangelical colleges are positioning themselves for the medium to long term. Oakhill currently stands to be the only beneficiary of a right wing schism. Maybe Conservative evangelicals of a slightly different flavour want their own training college too.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
# 1916

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I hope very much that I would be as willing to criticise a liberal college which violated the rights of its employees as I would a conservative college.

Exactly so. The really concerning issue is not about theological stance at all.
Only half correct.

There are TWO issues concerning WH.

One is about the way that the principal has implemented change and - supposedly - bullied and intimidated staff. Included in this is the way that the Council has - again supposedly - failed to deal with the matter. This is most definitely NOT about theological stance. Had the same things happened in ANY of the C of E's colleges, I would have hoped that there would have been a stink kicked up.

BUT

The second issue is about Turnbull's talk to Reform and his appointment of an ultra-conservative vice principal. This quite clearly IS about theological stance. The issues here are about whether the Council knew and approved of the direction that Turnbull is taking and whether this is appropriate for WH.

(FWIW, the make-up of the Council seems to show that RT's appointment was not the first step in taking WH closer to the Reform camp. My guess is that what we are seeing here is a strategy that has been worked at for some time. RT was appointed by a Council that is clearly already heavily influenced by Reform and their allies.)

Now both of these issues, by themselves, are worthy of discussion, although the first (dealing with alleged malpractice) is clearly of greater concern than the latter (which is 'just' about inter-evangelical conflicts). But when you have both issues intertwined, they become dynamite. And they ARE inescapably intertwined so that it is not unreasonable to suspect that the alleged malpractices are all a part of the overall "plot".

Attempts to limit the discussion to only one part of the two issues is at best naive and at worst disingenuous. The two are so muddled together that the only way to disentangle the allegations and counter-allegations is for a proper, independent review.

But that won't happen. The Council are clearly not going to take any action and the powers of the C of E at large are highly limited. All that Turnbull and the Council have to do is sit tight and allow the whole thing to blow over - the very tactic they are following at the moment. From a purely Machiavellian point of view, the only blunder Turnbull has made so far was to allow Jonathan Aitken to write his absurdly biased and inaccurate article for the Guardian. It would have been far better to keep absolute shtum - a lesson he seems to have learned since then.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Magistra
Apprentice
# 13066

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Just to reply to Numpty, I do accept your point about 'brutal and despotic'! No intentional manipulation going on there, but this was certainly emotive language born out of an emotional response to what seems a hopeless situation. So apologies. But it does seem that some fairly low tactics have been used to intimidate critics; and that decisions have been made in the face of overwhelming opposition from colleagues. So 'brutal' = hectoring; 'despotic' = unconsultative, if that language is more acceptable.
Posts: 37 | From: Oxford | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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You're right, Oscar. I should have said the really concerning issue for me is not about theological stance. I can understand why theological stance is an issue for other Shipmates - and why it might also be an issue for the Hall's continuing status in Oxford or its reputation within the C of E. That isn't the issue that grabs me.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Strategically one could argue that the various evangelical colleges are positioning themselves for the medium to long term. Oakhill currently stands to be the only beneficiary of a right wing schism. Maybe Conservative evangelicals of a slightly different flavour want their own training college too.

P

Interesting idea pixy. Oak Hill would appeal to the not-really-Anglican conservative evangelicals which are arguably their main constituency at the moment (i.e. they don't like bishops, infant baptism, communion, the prayer book), the kind of St Helen's, St Andrew the Great, Proc Trust crowd. No doubt Oak Hill has been thinking in these terms at some level.
If Wycliffe had a strategy in this direction (which I doubt), it is not very clear. They are obviously playing to the same crowd as Oak Hill while attempting to welcome charismatic evangelicals too. But they have got rid of Andrew Goddard* who was doing more than anyone to resource the thoughtful conservative really Anglicans on current issues. So strategically it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[ 18. October 2007, 08:25: Message edited by: Scribehunter ]

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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750

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I gather than Andy Angel has withdrawn and that Wycliffe are advertising again for a New Testament Lecturer. So in some sense at least "The Letter from the Three Principals" is correct in that qualified staff will not take jobs at Wycliffe.
quote:
The repercussions of all this are deeply disturbing. Already voices are being raised in the University as to the suitability of Wycliffe as a PPH. Bishops and DDOs may decide to give the Hall a wide berth. Staff with suitable qualifications may not apply for vacancies. Students from the broad range of evangelicalism which has traditionally characterised the Hall are unlikely to apply and the resultant limited focus on one strand of evangelicalism is unlikely to commend the Hall to the wider church. The Hall is running on borrowed capital and we fear for its future. If this sounds melodramatic it is realistic and is prompted by our love and concern for the Hall.


[ 18. October 2007, 08:34: Message edited by: Scribehunter ]

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
the powers of the C of E at large are highly limited.

Is there anyone who wants "the CofE at large" to be able to dictate to the colleges about their curriculum or staff?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arrietty

Ship's borrower
# 45

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I don't want anyone to dictate to anyone, but if there's any dictating going on at the moment it doesn't seem to be by the C of E at large (whatever that would look like.)

However, a smidgeon of accountability to funders rather than to what appears to be self-perpetuating councils or boards of governors would be a good thing, as it might bring the theological colleges somewhere nearer to the 21st Century, and therefore communicate a little of how the real world works to their ordinands.

I'm constantly amazed at the 'everyone will have to fit in with me' worldview that seems to be held by some ordinands, all I can say is they're in for a terrible shock when they become curates.

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i-church

Online Mission and Ministry

Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Ken, yes. It is long term deep politics. Along the lines of “The nature of the training of the full time ministers affects the nature of the ministry they will enact which affects the nature of the church."

Therefore the wider church does well to, if not dictate then be very interested in, the curriculum and staff. These are not independent bodies, they are servants of the whole, broad church. They continue to have to periodically prove to bishops inspectors that they are not tangential in their being and doing.

P

[ 18. October 2007, 09:50: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
I gather than Andy Angel has withdrawn and that Wycliffe are advertising again for a New Testament Lecturer.

Are you able to give a source for this? He was not due to take up his post until the beginning of December - so if he did feel he wanted to withdraw it would be logical to do it at this point, especially if his SEITE post is still open to him.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
It is long term deep politics. Along the lines of “The nature of the training of the full time ministers affects the nature of the ministry they will enact which affects the nature of the church."

Phew, thank goodness we have such fellows to ensure the ongoing survival of the Church.

And there was me thinking that it was Christ who promised to be the one to defend his church.... [Roll Eyes]

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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!

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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707

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quote:

Originally posted by Arrietty

I'm constantly amazed at the 'everyone will have to fit in with me' worldview that seems to be held by some ordinands, all I can say is they're in for a terrible shock when they become curates.

Won't this worldview become realistic again for at least a few of them once they become vicars ?

At the start of this thread there was a description, in his own words, by Siomon Vibert, of how he arrived at a church as vicar, found it not evangelical by his definition, and changed it until it was. Those already there seem to have had the choice of liking it or going elsewhere. I don't think this is an entirely isolated example.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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Richard C, please expand that line of thinking. I am unsure how to respond as I am unsure of what you are trying to say.

However I would want to point out that the use of reason and tradition are valued in the general Anglican view. While we value Our Lord's input into all these areas it is I think fair to say that He also expects us to use Common Sense and to learn from previous mistakes.

It is also disingenuous to suggest there is no political agenda at work. The trick seems to be one in which we are open to the Spirit of God while working in community.

P

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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Yes, I would want input from 'the CofE at large', otherwise what is the point of the CofE?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged



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